Codex: Chaos Space Marines Revisited / ferocious wishlisting

[Ulf]

Okay, I know it's probably not going to happen, but I put a list of things together that I personally would like to see changed in the current CSM codex. It is not meant as a total rebuild from scratch, it is merely a try to make my favourite army even more fun to play. I post the list of changes I have in my mind here for several reasons:

a) Things that went totally wrong (+x Pts?! What where you thinking!?) or that need clarification should be pointed out mercilessly.

b) Things I forgot. Your favourite unit is still barely useful? Drop me a hint.

c) Random praise to bolster my ego. ;)

Maybe I'll even send this list to GW, don't know if that will do anything but at least I tried. At least, if enough people say "yup, that makes sense", I'd use these rules personally without having to feel like just bending the rules the way I like them.

To the Changelist!

Units

Daemon Prince
Warptime 40 Pts (+15 Pts)

Chaos Lord
Mark of Tzeentch 10 Pts (-5 Pts)

Chaos Sorcerer
Mark of Tzeentch 20 Pts (-10 Pts)

Possessed
27 Pts each (+1 Pt)
They loose their Daemonkin special rule. Instead they gain Rending and Fleet of Foot (or Fleet of Tentacle!).

Chaos Dreadnought
Looses the special rule crazed. Instead, they gain the USRs Rage and Furious Charge.

Plague Marines
25 Pts each (+2 Pts)

Noise Marines
Blastmaster 30 Pts (-10 Pts)

Chaos Bikers
27 Pts each (-6 Pts)

Chaos Raptors
Gain the USR Hit and Run.

Chaos Havocs
Rocket Launcher 15 Pts (-5 Pts)

Greater Daemon
120 Pts
S increase to 7
Mark of Khorne: 10 Pts
Mark of Slaanesh: 10 Pts
Mark of Nurgle: 40 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch: 40 Pts
Daemonic Allies Special Rule (see below)

Lesser Daemons
Icon of Khorne: 30 Pts
Icon of Slaanesh: 20 Pts
Icon of Nurgle: 50 Pts
Icon of Tzeentch: 40 Pts
Daemonic Allies Special Rule (see below)

Equipment

Plasma Pistol
Allows additional Attack in Close Combat even when armed with Power Fist or Lightning Claw

Daemon Weapon
Two handed Power Weapon with additional Bonus depending on the mark of the wielder:

Undivided: +1 S
Khorne: none
Nurgle: Poisoned (4+)
Tzeentch: Ability to cast Doombolt
Slaanesh: Instant Death

These are always active. In addition, if the wielder is in close combat, he may take a psychic test at the beginning of the combat phase. When successful, he gains +1d6 attacks for the coming round of close combat. If the wielder bears the mark of Khorne, he gains +2d6 Attacks - he may activate the deamon weapon, even though it is formally a psychic power. It only is activated the same way a Psychic Power is used (with the same danger of being attacked by a Daemon), yet it does not count as using a Psychic Power.

Lash of Submission
Stays roughly the way it is, but every model in the affected unit has to move the exact same distance in the exact same direction (so no more piling up for template weapons).

Special Rules

Daemonic Allies
Marks and Icons of Chaos are only available to Daemons, if there is no other Mark or Icon of Chaos present in the army. For example, if the army contains Thousand Sons, a Squad of 10 Chaos Space Marines without Chaos Icon, and a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Tzeentch, it may upgrade any Daemon units with a Mark of Tzeentch. If it also contained a Unit of Noise Marines, or the Chaos Space Marines had an Icon of Nurgle, no Daemon unit would be allowed any kind of Mark or Icon.

[Herald of Nurgle]

- I'd love some buffing for the Plague Marines (really? MOAR BUFF?)
- Daemonic Allies is just confusing, I guess. It needs to be cleaned up, if you get what I mean.

Other than that, it's a good initial list. I'd just like at least a couple of Daemonic Gifts - not too many, and not too spread out.

[Miami]

I agree with HoN on the Daemonic Allies rule. I think I get what you're saying, but it's a little messy. And THANK YOU for wanting to see Raptors Hit and Run again. It's ridiculous that they are just evil assault marines right now. Finally, I really like the change to Daemon Weapons. It makes them much more useful, though still imbalanced (Slaanesh's instant death is nearly useless against most enemies). Could there possibly still be more of a liklihood that the Khorne weapon causes problems? It's potentially the best of them all, and even with your current "pyschic" weapon idea it would make sense that a Lord of Khorne would have more trouble controlling it.

The one thing I don't get is the Plasma Pistol. Why? Just to make it more prevalent in the army? I can't understand the justification of one pistol allowing the extra attack while all others do not.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Plasma Pistol is a bit far - it's not exactly like it's unique, right? Soulshredder more like.

Raptors are even worse than a normal Assault Marines... for 2 more points. No ATSKNF, No CT, and definitely no support from the other sections. That's why another recommendation I have is Icons should allow the Chaos player to reroll the scatter dice is a Jump Infantry unit is deep striking near it.

Khorne Daemon Weapon deserves the extra attacks, but there's one other thing... give him a leadership modifier. He's a big Fearless dude anyway, so the only time it'll come up is when you're being Mind Warred, and even then the Mark of Khorne would probably give some bonuses. Makes it more difficult for the test. Or maybe just rolling on 3d6 - basic leadership then. Fun? Fun fun.

[Spanky Harrison]

Chaos Dreadnought
Looses the special rule crazed. Instead, they gain the USRs Rage and Furious Charge.

I kinda like that. Makes them crazy without being too dangerous to be useful.


Chaos Havocs
Rocket Launcher 15 Pts (-5 Pts)

Meh, everyone will take meltaguns anyway :P


Plasma Pistol
Allows additional Attack in Close Combat even when armed with Power Fist or Lightning Claw

I would have to say no to this. I can kinda see the idea behind it, but this would be a rule for the BRB, not a codex. Also, its needlessly complex, and powerfists and lightning claws dont get bonus attacks from anything but second powerfists and lighting claws for a reason. Theres no reason that you should be able to get +1 attack for your powerfist and a shooting attack that can blow up a tank for less points than everyone else pays for the second attack.


Daemon Weapon
Two handed Power Weapon with additional Bonus depending on the mark of the wielder:

Undivided: +1 S
Khorne: none
Nurgle: Poisoned (4+)
Tzeentch: Ability to cast Doombolt
Slaanesh: Instant Death

These are always active. In addition, if the wielder is in close combat, he may take a psychic test at the beginning of the combat phase. When successful, he gains +1d6 attacks for the coming round of close combat. If the wielder bears the mark of Khorne, he gains +2d6 Attacks - he may activate the deamon weapon, even though it is formally a psychic power. It only is activated the same way a Psychic Power is used (with the same danger of being attacked by a Daemon), yet it does not count as using a Psychic Power.

Oh good lord no. That would make daemon weapons unstoppable. If you really want to buff Daemon weapons, I would just make it to where when you roll a one, you take the wound like normal, but you still get to fight. That way, theres a downside, but at least your not taking a wound AND jerking off while guys stab you. (unless your slaanesh ;))


Lash of Submission
Stays roughly the way it is, but every model in the affected unit has to move the exact same distance in the exact same direction (so no more piling up for template weapons).

Meh? As long as lash follows the normal shooting rules, its fine. Annoying, and I kinda wish it wasnt there, but fine.


Special Rules

Daemonic Allies
Marks and Icons of Chaos are only available to Daemons, if there is no other Mark or Icon of Chaos present in the army. For example, if the army contains Thousand Sons, a Squad of 10 Chaos Space Marines without Chaos Icon, and a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Tzeentch, it may upgrade any Daemon units with a Mark of Tzeentch. If it also contained a Unit of Noise Marines, or the Chaos Space Marines had an Icon of Nurgle, no Daemon unit would be allowed any kind of Mark or Icon.

here is how you do this as a rule:

Greater Daemons with Marks and Lesser Daemon's with Icons may only be summoned off of Mark's/Icons of the same God. For example, a Unit of Summoned Lesser Daemons with an Icon of Khorne could only be summoned within 6 inches (or whatever the normal distance is) of an Icon of Khorne, or a independant character with a Mark of Khorne and a personal Icon.

This keeps the lack of multi-god restrictions without just making it a total mix-n-match spoo fest.

[Lord Anubis]

Hmmmm... If we're going with the assumption there will only ever be one Chaos Codex to go up against the four or five loyalist ones...

I would make Fabius Bile an upgrade for a squad of Chaos Marines rather than an independent character. He gets to take advantage of the "upgrade" so he still has somewhat random stats, but he'll never be a casualty if something goes wrong (he's using them as test subjects, after all...)

I'd say dump the Demonic Allies rule and go in the direction of the newer Codexes-- tie it directly to characters.

Living Icon - Some champions are so favored by their patrons that their armies and warbands are blessed with additional demonic forces to win their battles. If your army contains a Living Icon, you may substitute the Chaos Power-appropriate greater demon and/or lesser demons for the points cost listed in Codex Demons. All summoning rules remain the same.

Then you just give the big four--Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, and Typhus-- the Living Icon rule in their stats.

Much simpler. Yeah, this would still allow "that guy" who wants to have Kharn lead an army of Thousand Sons and Plague Marines, but let's face it...he's going to find ways to do that sort of stuff no matter what.

[Ulf]

Thanks for the comments so far.

Daemonic Allies:
The intention behind this rule is to reward players who play an army dedicated to a single god - only then can you buy upgrades for your daemon units. Kinda makes sense fluffwise, and making the daemons somewhat more flexible is a nice thing, too.

The ways Spanky Harrison and Lord Anubis put it differ a lot from my idea, so I dont think this is the right way to write that rule, as you would still be allowed to mix different marks in one army without any penalty. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the "new" idea of the Black Legion being some kind of Jack of all trades (hey, it's Abaddon, if he says "follow me" you'd better put your petty quarrels aside ;)), but I feel that players who adhere to a stricter Background by limiting themselves to only one type of Cult Marines (who are arguably among the best Troops available in any Codex) should have at least a little bit of candy.

Daemon Weapon:
I actually thought of three ways to put Daemon Weapons back into the picture:
A) Nothing bad happens when you roll a 1 for your attacks, but instead you hit your own Squad for everytime you fail to hit in Close combat by rolling a 1 (like Kharne, without the "always hits on 2+"). I did not like that too much, as it makes the weapon even more risky. Although i liked the fact that solo generals should do okay with this (not being eternal warriors, solo generals need all the help they can get).
B) The way Spanky Harrison described - everything stays the way it is, except that you can still attack if you roll a "1" for attacks. I liked that, still risky to use, but it's only a wound that is at stake, not a full round of combat of your probably most expensive unit on the table.
C) Make it a Psychic Power. This way there still is a risk (especially against Eldar, and vs Tyranids you may very likely just fail your power a lot), but a lot less. I liked that best, because, after all, a Daemon weapon is a Two handed Weapon which costs 40 Points. No extra Attack for 2nd ccw, enough points to buy a stockload of shiny equipment - better make sure this item is useful. And the idea with 3d6 for the test is even nicer, I like that best now. :)

And I dont think that the Khorne Weapon is too powerful. Yes, it can deal insane amounts of attacks. But the other weapon have other boni (I think the Nurgle weapon is the most powerful one, especially since poisened weapons with strength value are allowed to reroll on T below their S since 5th ed...) which may come in useful, more useful then another d6 attacks. And then again, a general may always be singled out in CC as he has no real retinue, and he is no eternal warrior - if you give him a daemon weapon, pushing his point cost well beyond 150 and forcing him into melee, he needs to deal a lot of damage in few rounds, because he will not survive for long.

Plasma Pistol:
The PP is overpriced atm. 15 Points for a PP, or another (combi)Melta for 10? Nobrainer. Pistols lost the Firepower they had in 4th Ed, and even back then 15 Pts was pretty steep. Plasma Pistol and Power Fist on a champion, thats 70 Pts on a 1 Wound model. Thats like almost a dozen Orkboyz. And you have the chance to fry this pricy model thanks to overheating plasma technology.

I thought of re-pricing the PP to 5 Pts, but the way with +1 A seemed more fun.

Thanks again for the comments so far. I see now that I have to rephrase some parts. :)

[Miggidy Mack]

I'd have been happy with allies rules from Codex Daemons for Chaos Marines and IG.

[warpcrafter]

What I want is a great big book of CHAOS. Put Traitor Legions, Badab War Renegades, Mutants, Plague Zombies, Traitor Guard, medieval Eye of Terror troops, Beastmen, Minotaurs, Trolls and Dark Adeptus all together and make them all available in a single codex. I don't care if it ends up being bigger than the rulebook. It's the only way that a chaos army for 40K makes sense. And bring back all the little gifts of chaos from the 4th edition CSM codex.

[Teh_Frm4terer]

-I want Balstmasters for the same points cost as Plasma Cannons. 40 points? srsly?
-I want the armoury back!
-I want the Books of Chaos back, as well as the cult armies, such as Iron Warriors, Night Lords etc.
-I want more info on the Horus Heresy. They have taken it out of the codex, they should put it into the chaos book!
-I want to pay more for more stuff. Traitor Guard, Plague Zombies, Renegades.
-MOST of all, i want to be able to mix Daemons with CSM, in the same way as the Inquisition. Lesser Daemons are bleh.

I WANT IT NOW!!! :p ...

[entendre_entendre]

Traitor Legions w/ special rules for them
ex: Iron Warriors get bunkers or extra tanks, Night Lords give a -1 Ld to enemy troops in CC, Word Bearers get discount Daemons, Alpha Legion has infiltrate, World Eaters have an ability similar to the Maelstrom of Gore apoc formation, Death Guard cause Nurgle's rot, Thousand Sons have a mega-spell or something, Emperor's Children get combat drugs.
obviously costing more points, but would cause some cool themed armies
(yes i do realize some of these are overpowered, but it would be all equaled if my perfect world)

[DuskRaider]

I really do miss the advantages of taking a Legion or God specific army... Kinda tired of seeing people just spamming whatever works best because it will help them win. Death Guard with Nurgle's Rot was fun! It kind of sucked for any allies, but that's what made it so cool. And I really do miss my Khornate Axes and God-specific vehicle upgrades.

As far as a true Planetary Invasion force, I think the closest we'll ever get is the IA books... Here's hoping there's rules to use Daemons in IA: 7, although I highly doubt it. Still, a 2,000 point list with 30 Plague Marines surrounded by a ton of Renegades will be REALLY cool to field, especially with Plague Zombies.

[Lord Anubis]

I agree. It is sad that Chaos has become this undefined blob of an army while loyalist Marines get codex after codex.

Really what I'd love is three books--

The Lost and The Damned-- Recent Space Marine or Imperial Guard renegades, mutants, plague zombies, generic demons, and so on.

Demons -- Self Explanatory

The Traitor Legions -- The original legions with special characters/ rules to give them some flavor, and the ability to summon real demons.

While I'm at it, I would also like $50,000 in cash, a new laptop, a vacation in Mexico, and a date with Reiko Aylesworth from 24.

:D

[Cthulhu]

- I want Autocannon toting Havocs with Tank Hunters back.
- I want a viable army tactic that doesn't involve at least one lash.

That is all.

[Archon]

I don´t think we need a revised Codex. We need a Codex for the Legions!

A book to cover all of the nine Legions.

For all: Dreadclaw - Orbital Lander - Cap of 12/6/1 - no weapons - works like a drop pod (simplified)

Just some Ideas for the Emperor Children:

Mark of Slaanesh: Ini + 1, Fearless

Free Champion Upgrade for Units with 6 / 12 / 18 Members

Special Options for charcters: Combat Drugs (ala DE Drugs:WS+1/ReRoll to Hit/+1A/Strike First/FNP/ignore defensiv Granades)

Special Psi-Powers: Lash (a little bit modified, no bunching up the models i.E.), a Leadership-based Power thats causes Pinning

Sonics: Availaible on all units/vehicles. Cost for Changing to Blasters 5 Pts / Cost for Blastmasters max.20 oder Changing vs. Rocket Launchers / Cost for Sieren max. 15 or Change for Spezial Weapon

Warp Amplifer works like the one in the old dex

Deamon Weapon: Gains add. W6 A if a 1 is rolled a wound is inflicted similar to the attack from the warp but still counts 1 A. Enemys wounded loose 1 A for every W inflicted to a min. of 1 (they are spasm in extasy).

Demons: All Demons out of the Chaos Demon Book, except NO UPGRADES/OPTIONS available.

Spec. Chars: i.E. Lucius - if he joins a squad all gains WS +1



And a bunch of ideas for the IRON WARRIOS:

May take a Ordanance Battery out of Codex: Imperial Guard :)

May take Vinidcators as a squadrown.

Havocs and Choosen and HQ get: Tankhunters with ONE-Shoot Weapons (i.E. Lascannon, Melta etc., so no AK, HB etc.)

Mark of chaos undivided: ReRoll LD-Tests

IW are Stubborn

Gets a add. HS-Slot in exchange for two FA-Slots

Warsmith gets: Tactical Genius (modifiys Reseve-Rolls for both friendly/enemy units // rerolls flank-attacks)
may buy Orbital Bombardment

Servoarm: 5+ Repair / Add. Power-Fist-Hit

May use: Deathwind Droppods as a FA Choice

May use no Deamons at all

Obliterators: 80 Pts. but W(4)5

Techpriest/Marine in a Chaos-Version.

Special Chars: May give "Tank Hunter" to all units / gives Flamer for free / etc.

ENJOY:)