Cool things you've found in 7th Edition.

[RGilbert26]

Morning all, thought I'd start a topic for all the cool things you've found while reading the new rules.

I'll start with my current favourite:

Template weapons can now fire into buildings (fire point/access point) and open topped vehicles, causes d6 wounds at the strength and AP of the weapon.

Anyone got any Marshmallows? :P

[Charon]

That rule actually made me put my DE on the shelf until they get an updated codex.

[Turner]

Blasts, they work the same (from what I see) with the exception of the Apocalyptic Mega-blast. The Apocalyptic Mega-blast appears to work like a direct fire barrage weapon. You are required to have LOS yet when determining where the shot is coming from, assume it is coming from the center of the blast. (And hits on vehicles are on the side, as if it were barrage)

Page 158

Apocalyptic Mega-blast (5"/7"/10")

To determine whether a unit wounded by an Apocalyptic Mega-blast weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the apocalyptic blast marker, instead of from the firing model.
Hits from Apocalyptic Mega-blast weapons made against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

- - - Updated - - -

Jinking, it's now a 4+ cover save but the decision to jink happens before hits are made. Also, if you decide to jink you have to snap fire next turn.


Page 167

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with the special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

- - - Updated - - -

Interceptor and Skyfire, it appears that if you have the Skyfire special rule you have to snap fire at all targets unless it is a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer. (Then you use your regular ballistic skill) It looks like Interceptor does nothing to help Skyfire now.


Page 167

"Interceptor
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one."


Page 171

"Skyfire
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers, but it can only fire Snap Shots against other targets."

- - - Updated - - -

Barrage weapons now use their minimum range on their weapon's profile (if applicable) when firing indirectly. You can ignore the weapon's minimum range (if applicable) if you fire directly.


Page 160:

All Barrage Weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:

Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means the can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing directly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

[Caitsidhe]

I, being an CMS Player, found all the rejoicing about the Faq to the Helldrake amusing. It seems as if most people assume that all it right with the world. I didn't even bat at eye at the change because I had no problem with it. This is because:

1) Nothing prevents a Helldrake from just dropping to Hover when it needs to fire any direction it likes (and/or protect its aft).
2) In Hover is the most durable Skimmer in the game.
3) It also benefits from the improved Skimmer Jink.
4) Taking even MORE Helldrakes is painfully easy in this edition and people can't complain about it because <gasp> that 360 thing has been fixed.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Split Fire and Counter-Attack no longer need a Leadership check to activate.

Area terrain is gone. Craters are a specific terrain type which grants a 6+ cover save, but a +2 to the cover save of troops Gone to Ground within (which I like, because that's how craters work IRL!)

Force Weapons now work by activating a 1 WC psychic power *before* combat, rather than an LD check to cause an unsaved wound to Instant Death.

Precision Shots are now much more restricted as Characters don't automatically get them (which means that the Exarch power Marksman's Eye now *grants* Precision Shots, and still on a 5+ at that).

Shooting is now handled with all shots by one weapon class, then another and so on until all the different types of weapons in the firing unit are fired. That means there's now even more granularity to directional shooting, as wounds are still allocated to the closest model to the firer.

[Serenapth]

P103
Outside forces...
Reading this shows unsupported characters will not be able to rock up on a unit, challenge and fight and kill the poor Squad Sgt,not get hit back win the combat and maybe make the unit run away.
All the squad can hit the character, even if fighting in a challenge...

[RGilbert26]

I, being an CMS Player, found all the rejoicing about the Faq to the Helldrake amusing. It seems as if most people assume that all it right with the world. I didn't even bat at eye at the change because I had no problem with it. This is because:

1) Nothing prevents a Helldrake from just dropping to Hover when it needs to fire any direction it likes (and/or protect its aft).
2) In Hover is the most durable Skimmer in the game.
3) It also benefits from the improved Skimmer Jink.
4) Taking even MORE Helldrakes is painfully easy in this edition and people can't complain about it because <gasp> that 360 thing has been fixed.

Okay so you switch to Hover mode and then my turn, I fire a Lascannon at it and blow it up. Yep smart move there.

[Caitsidhe]

Okay so you switch to Hover mode and then my turn, I fire a Lascannon at it and blow it up. Yep smart move there.

<chuckles> If your Lascannon is still there, sure you will get your shot(s). As I pointed out above, you still have to hit me, get the required result, and hope I don't avoid it by improved Jink or natural Invulnerable save depending on the situation. Anti-Tank (vehicle) weapons have actually decreased slightly in effectiveness too. The difference is that instead of facing 1-3 Helldrakes, you are now facing a likely 3-6 Helldrakes. For the record, I have taken my Helldrake into Hover often enough prior to 7th Edition, just as my Winged Daemon Prince spent most of his time NOT flying. It is just a matter of practice. The ultimate power of a Helldrake is the a Torrent Baleflamer, high strength and AP-3. It remains an efficient troop killer, likely the most efficient in the game.

If I can stay in the air and burn you to crisp, I will. If I have to hover now and then, I will do so without hesitation. With more Helldrakes in the air I can swarm in ways where some overshoot and other fly short and achieve exactly the same effect I did before. All the changes to the rules have done is ensure that you will fight MORE Helldrakes, applied by people taking greater care and precision in their flight patterns. The change in the rules just takes away the ability to complain about them. As someone who has frequently had to try and kill Skimmers less durable than my Helldrake, I can honestly say that I feel I'll still get a good exchange on my points. It is always a logistical problem.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah, but as soon as a Burninator Drake is forced to Jink, it's not able to gob at anyone next turn, because Snap Shots and that. That's a mighty big trade off - Survival, or Attack. It may prove enough to restrict it's popularity in the long run.

[RGilbert26]

How do you have an improved Jink?

You now have choose to Jink before being shot at, if you Jink you can't fire for a turn.

[Wolfshade]

So jink is going to ground in air in effect?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Declare before rolls to hit. Gain a 4+ cover save. Snap Shots only in your next turn. Means Heldrakes are a bit trickier to use, especially with the restricted arc of fire now. By no means 'nerfed' or otherwise not worth taking, but definitely not as silly as they were.

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, but as soon as a Burninator Drake is forced to Jink, it's not able to gob at anyone next turn, because Snap Shots and that. That's a mighty big trade off - Survival, or Attack. It may prove enough to restrict it's popularity in the long run.

It just depends on the situation and the "flock" of dragons. When you run 3+ Helldrakes you are willing to Hover with the odd one and even Jink because the others take up the slack on the alternating turns. Mr. Mystery, I am decent enough guy and fun to play. I am also (as my friend Kerstan will tell you) very competitive. I play to win. I will adjust my lists to make it a fair fight because I want to beat you myself and give you no way to blame it on my list. "I" want to beat you. But, as a competitive player, I understand the mindset of those who don't care about the challenge and only want to win. I don't begrudge them this mindset, I just don't share it. An empty victory means nothing to me; however, those types of players are very good at logistics, and thus to beat them I must be good at logistics.

The new rules are great from my perspective because it means the rug has been yanked from under the feet of all those complaining about the Helldrake. Logistically, however, the problems remain for those trying to fight it. Logistically the return on a dragon has not altered at all. The only thing that has changed is the margin of error in your flight patterns. It takes a bit more skill and knowledge to maximize air time and targets. As long as the person controlling them applies this care, the damage output is the same. Let me put it to you this way, how long do you think it will take for the average competitive player to fly flawless patterns? :D How long do you think it will take them to figure out that two dragons working in tandem can hit the same targets as before with the added bonus of an extra torrent? It all comes back to math. You should be pleased that I am cheering on this change to the rules. :D I agree with it, although not for the reasons most people seem enchanted by it. I like it because I'm sick of listening to people complain about dragons.

[Mr Mystery]

I quite agree.

One of the greatest strings to my gaming bow is a penchant for fielding lesser seen units. Those that the internet says are cack. Yet I find they're often vastly underrated, if only because someone slaved to the perceived meta hasn't really considered what to do against those units. Or worse, they'll be all 'meh, they is the rubbish, I r ignore'.....well, until said unit gets tore in and it's all far, far too late :p Units that are labelled 'good' attract as much firepower as they do pointless complaints.

[Haighus]

Morning all, thought I'd start a topic for all the cool things you've found while reading the new rules.

I'll start with my current favourite:

Template weapons can now fire into buildings (fire point/access point) and open topped vehicles, causes d6 wounds at the strength and AP of the weapon.

Anyone got any Marshmallows? :P
That is a very cool change to how flamers work! They could flame buildings last edition, but the transport thing is a nice, if situational, little boost. Makes fast torrent flamers like Hellhounds and Heldrakes even more nasty vs DE and Orks though. I take it the flamer still has one hit against the vehicle/building too?

2) In Hover is the most durable Skimmer in the game.
Hmm, I'm not sure if a hovering Heldrake is more durable than a Monolith (but is far more efficient ;) ), and a Wave Serpent that still has it's shield activated is probably close too. Hovering Heldrakes are still very tough though.

[This Dave]

I quite agree.

One of the greatest strings to my gaming bow is a penchant for fielding lesser seen units. Those that the internet says are cack. Yet I find they're often vastly underrated, if only because someone slaved to the perceived meta hasn't really considered what to do against those units. Or worse, they'll be all 'meh, they is the rubbish, I r ignore'.....well, until said unit gets tore in and it's all far, far too late :p Units that are labelled 'good' attract as much firepower as they do pointless complaints.

I still want to see a use for a Pyrovore. :)

[Mr Mystery]

I have done. They're secretly ace.

Hide it in amongst some Gaunts to give it half a chance at survival, should the enemy twig. Then, have it assault a high value unit. Flail pointlessly in combat, and let the unit pull all it's arms and legs of, and enjoy a little acid bath. Pulled that off quite a few times. Trick is to find an enemy unit that strikes entirely at the same I step. That way, they can do any number of wounds before I have to be removed, and take that many acid tests.

Best result? Piled him into 5 Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators. By the time I'd finished exploding and weeing acid everywhere, 4 of the Terminators had fallen.....

[RGilbert26]

That's evil lol.

[Mr Mystery]

All depends on your opponent not clocking it as a threat.

So you can pull it off once or twice per player before they learn their lesson :p

[Megad00mer]

No more 50% limit on reserves anymore. My Nids like that.

[DarkLink]

There's an article by a guy called Sirlin on "beginner's luck" on that exact subject worth reading.

[Caitsidhe]

No more 50% limit on reserves anymore. My Nids like that.

For me the elimination of the maximum on reserves means the return of my lists that hit almost entirely from reserves, i.e. coming in from Outflank, Deepstrike, and fliers of course. It means very hard times for gun line armies who got an unfair boost by the fact so many of us were forced to put half our armies on the gun range for them to attrition until our up close and personal Flamers, Meltas, Baleflamers, etc. arrived to decimate the gun lines.

[The Tisroc]

4) Taking even MORE Helldrakes is painfully easy in this edition and people can't complain about it because <gasp> that 360 thing has been fixed.

Cool. Put 'em down! I agree that there will be far less *****ing. This was a good fix.

[Mr Mystery]

There's an article by a guy called Sirlin on "beginner's luck" on that exact subject worth reading.

Got linkage?

[40kGamer]

Lots to like about the little changes...

Like the new Jink. 4+ cover and you do not have to have moved to claim it.

Being able to cast blessing after arriving from reserve is a nice.

Also a fan of the 50% reserve restriction going away although the autolose scenario is still there.

[This Dave]

Lots to like about the little changes...

Like the new Jink. 4+ cover and you do not have to have moved to claim it.

Being able to cast blessing after arriving from reserve is a nice.

Also a fan of the 50% reserve restriction going away although the autolose scenario is still there.

I'm building an artillery battery for my Guard just in case I run into this situation. :)

[sfshilo]

Grenades can only be used once per unit per phase. :-) No more dreadnought krak grenade sad faces.

[deinol]

One thing I noticed. Warlords aren't restricted to HQs. Doesn't have to be an independent character. So in theory, you could select a sergeant or some other squad leader as your warlord. Also doesn't have the "highest leadership value" restriction anymore.

I'm not certain when it would be a wise choice to select a regular character as the warlord, other than an unbound list with no HQs.

I will say my favorite part about unbound is the ability to run small lists without a ridiculously high ranking officer leading it. Hey, tac squad and scouts, go recon that area over there. What you need someone to lead you? Ok, the Chapter Master himself will come along...

[chicop76]

It just depends on the situation and the "flock" of dragons. When you run 3+ Helldrakes you are willing to Hover with the odd one and even Jink because the others take up the slack on the alternating turns. Mr. Mystery, I am decent enough guy and fun to play. I am also (as my friend Kerstan will tell you) very competitive. I play to win. I will adjust my lists to make it a fair fight because I want to beat you myself and give you no way to blame it on my list. "I" want to beat you. But, as a competitive player, I understand the mindset of those who don't care about the challenge and only want to win. I don't begrudge them this mindset, I just don't share it. An empty victory means nothing to me; however, those types of players are very good at logistics, and thus to beat them I must be good at logistics.

The new rules are great from my perspective because it means the rug has been yanked from under the feet of all those complaining about the Helldrake. Logistically, however, the problems remain for those trying to fight it. Logistically the return on a dragon has not altered at all. The only thing that has changed is the margin of error in your flight patterns. It takes a bit more skill and knowledge to maximize air time and targets. As long as the person controlling them applies this care, the damage output is the same. Let me put it to you this way, how long do you think it will take for the average competitive player to fly flawless patterns? :D How long do you think it will take them to figure out that two dragons working in tandem can hit the same targets as before with the added bonus of an extra torrent? It all comes back to math. You should be pleased that I am cheering on this change to the rules. :D I agree with it, although not for the reasons most people seem enchanted by it. I like it because I'm sick of listening to people complain about dragons.

Hence why I think I'll field more sky rays in my Tau army, or more missile sides. In essence you must understand if you are fielding more hellturkies, than people can field more anti air units as well. As a Tau player only the invulnerable save is a bother since sky fire and ignoring cover saves isn't an issue.

Since I don't run interceptor as much you'll be able to get an initial first attack and be sitting ducks/ turkeys the rest of the game.

than if I'm playing daemons than it's vector strikes galore. Either way not really worried about the turkies.

Now with my sister guard they will be a problem. However since I can now have more anti air solutions., I think it probably won't be a problem, too bad no ignore cover save orders for vehicles ;-(, besides using divination.

I think it will be smart to run a good number of troops still. even though everything can score, only troops can deny. I can see games where people will lose because both sides have 6 points, but the guy with the most troops on each point will wind up winning, so in close tie like games having troops is going to matter a lot.

unless I misread or got misinformation if two sides are sitting on a point they both get the point unless the troop choice contest and deny the extra point to the other player. which gives people the illusion they don't need as much troops, but in reality they probably need more.

[deinol]

I think it will be smart to run a good number of troops still. even though everything can score, only troops can deny. I can see games where people will lose because both sides have 6 points, but the guy with the most troops on each point will wind up winning, so in close tie like games having troops is going to matter a lot.

unless I misread or got misinformation if two sides are sitting on a point they both get the point unless the troop choice contest and deny the extra point to the other player. which gives people the illusion they don't need as much troops, but in reality they probably need more.

Non-troops deny other non-troops, only one side can control an objective at a time. It's just that non-troops can't contest against troops (or other units with Objective Secured, see Pedro + Sternguard).

[chicop76]

Non-troops deny other non-troops, only one side can control an objective at a time. It's just that non-troops can't contest against troops (or other units with Objective Secured, see Pedro + Sternguard).

Basically what I said still apply, but you don't get points for two non troop units on one spot.

Nice, so if you want to win games have really durable troops sitting on the objectives and kill off the other sides troops, or lack of.

Nurgle troops are starting to look more appealing. Anyway it does change what I did want to run at first since I was going just run whatever.

Thinking about it more this hurts stand and shoot gun line armies a lot.
I'm thinking mobility, durability, and the advantage of being troops.

Besides bikes I can't think of too many units that fit that. Tervigons have a nice advantage since they can be troops, spawn troops, and I believe can't be i nstakilled anymore, unless you reduce them to toughness 5 or remove them from the board.

Nids actually may due better now due to the troop rule since they can have a lot of troops, with guard and daemons also having a high troop count.

Thinking about it running nid / daemons would be a crap thing to do. Long as they stay 12" away from each other their golden. Heck spawning more nids and daemons wouldn't be a negative even if you do roll ones and they do nothing. Although you would want to run nids as primary.

[Kristopholes]

Flying Monstrous Creatures now actually have to take an unsaved wound in order to take a Grounded test. No more effing markerlights taking down a swooping Daemon Prince. They also choose to use Skyfire for their weapons or not in a turn allowing you to use full BS against Flyers or Ground units (depending on which you choose).

Assaulting a unit through difficult terrain now only takes 2 inches off the charge rather than using the lowest of 3d6.

Defensive Grenades can now be thrown as a Str 1 Ap- Blast with Blind

Vector Strikes with Flyers and Flying monstrous creatures are still D3 but now AP 2 sooooooo things like heldrakes and their meteoric descent could potentially do 3 Str 8 AP 2 hits to something's side armor. always fun.

[DarkLink]

Got linkage?

Sirlin.net, not sure exactly where. Basically, beginners luck works like this: competitive player starts playing. He learns the basics, then mid level tactics, then high level tactics, etc. A lot of lower level tactics become invalidated by higher level ones, because they're not very hard to counter. They get left aside.

The beginner comes along, though, and he's at square one. He tries a basic tactic, tactic a, something that isn't particularly effective. But the experienced player is expecting tactic z, a much more effective one, which leaves him wide open for tactic a. The beginner does a bunch of damage, despite being a beginner.

Now, the competitive player will realize his opponent is a beginner, and start playing using those basic tactics he mastered a long time ago and then win the game. But he still got a bloody nose because of so called "beginner's luck".

There's also some stuff on using non-optimal tactics and really just about everything else you can think of related to competitive gaming.

[bob sprocket]

Claimed buildings are scoring units!

[Gobskrag 'Eadbasha]

I liked how vehicle passengers can take a leadership test to resist the vehicle damage effects making the snap shot.

[chicop76]

Grey knights are battle brothers with all human factions, making the Inquisition codex a worthless buy at the same time.

Also the possibility of having Dreadknights and Centurians in your human army, suck on that one for no Tau allies.

[Charon]

Stuff from Inquisition codex is better then from grey knight codex. Way better...

[DarkLink]

I think most of the differences have been faqd in, so all you really get are the relics and valkyries.

[daboarder]

My favourite thing so far. Its more from the FAQ but.

Ahriman casting up to 15 witchfire powers a turn (warp charge depending)

True and utter devestation

[chicop76]

I think most of the differences have been faqd in, so all you really get are the relics and valkyries.

Valkyries isn't a.big deal.since.you can take.guard. the only thing you're really getting is relics. For.me I can't reason myself to buy a book just for relics. Although.it.does.have better.chimeras in it. Strangely enough.I.have a feeling that inquisition might be changed with sisters. First.we.have to wait for.GreyKnights to.come.out.

Which in it's current shape.and form I.can simplify do.greyknights.and guard to.any human army, which will.mute any real reason to pick.up the Inquisition codex, besides relics or better chimeras.

- - - Updated - - -


Flying Monstrous Creatures now actually have to take an unsaved wound in order to take a Grounded test. No more effing markerlights taking down a swooping Daemon Prince. They also choose to use Skyfire for their weapons or not in a turn allowing you to use full BS against Flyers or Ground units (depending on which you choose).

Assaulting a unit through difficult terrain now only takes 2 inches off the charge rather than using the lowest of 3d6.

Defensive Grenades can now be thrown as a Str 1 Ap- Blast with Blind

Vector Strikes with Flyers and Flying monstrous creatures are still D3 but now AP 2 sooooooo things like heldrakes and their meteoric descent could potentially do 3 Str 8 AP 2 hits to something's side armor. always fun.

Wtf. I have to.wound now. That's.stupid good. That means less.of.a.chance.of.anything.without skyline.to.kill.a.flying.MC. That makes.flying circus more deadly. Which means I have to take decent anti air that can hurt flying.MCs. Which means now people.Will field more.broadsides and skyrays.

[daboarder]

Another cool thing.

FMCs get jink even when gliding. so Nurgle daemon princes with wings have 2+ cover saves

[Caitsidhe]

Another cool thing.

FMCs get jink even when gliding. so Nurgle daemon princes with wings have 2+ cover saves

<laughs> I wasn't going to draw attention to that one yet so I could see the look on my friend Kerstan's face. Ah well. :D

[chicop76]

Another cool thing.

FMCs get jink even when gliding. so Nurgle daemon princes with wings have 2+ cover saves

CSM.daemons.have.wings, while.daemon princes have demonic flight, meaning.daemons.need.not.wings.

You telling.me.that.invisibility.on flying.mcs.give them +2 cover.saves.while.gliding. please.tell me that linking disrupts their shooting.and.assaulting.

It.seems.like.7th was made.For.daemons. like.how.5th was made.For.guard.

[Caitsidhe]

So yes, Be'Lakor gets Shrouded and has wings so he ALWAYS has a 2+ Cover save (unless you somehow ignore cover). He also has Invisibility. So assuming you cast it (and I dont' know why you wouldn't).... they need 6's to hit you without having to fly... and thus can still assault right away. Even if they do hit you... well you have a 2+ Cover save.... Eternal Warrior on the off chance you get hit with something good.

[chicop76]

So yes, Be'Lakor gets Shrouded and has wings so he ALWAYS has a 2+ Cover save (unless you somehow ignore cover). He also has Invisibility. So assuming you cast it (and I dont' know why you wouldn't).... they need 6's to hit you without having to fly... and thus can still assault right away. Even if they do hit you... well you have a 2+ Cover save.... Eternal Warrior on the off chance you get hit with something good.

Basically.now.you can glide.away and rape.is.what you saying. That changes a lot of.things. Which means you fly 2".like before, but after.that you glide and assault.everything, sigh.

Harder.to.kill.flying.mc s.check
Summon more.daemons. check.
Can have fateweaver, 3 Lord of.changes, and Bel'kor. Check.

[daboarder]

CSM.daemons.have.wings, while.daemon princes have demonic flight, meaning.daemons.need.not.wings.

You telling.me.that.invisibility.on flying.mcs.give them +2 cover.saves.while.gliding. please.tell me that linking disrupts their shooting.and.assaulting.

It.seems.like.7th was made.For.daemons. like.how.5th was made.For.guard.

What? Huh I dont even....

Wings make daemon princes into FMCs which have jink. Daemon of nurgle gives shrouded. These stack to give a 2+ cover save

[Caitsidhe]

What? Huh I dont even....

Wings make daemon princes into FMCs which have jink. Daemon of nurgle gives shrouded. These stack to give a 2+ cover save

Yeah. I commented on the fact that Be'Lakor also comes with Shrouded (like a Nurgle DP), Wings, and Invisibility. I said, perhaps, too much and overloaded him. :D

[helvexis]

i cant find anywhere that states the embarked units of a transport also snap fire after the vehicle jinks...

also the take a leadership test to not have to snap fire from stunned or shaken while in a transport is AMAZING

[Andrew Thomas]

Tau Drone Spam works beautifully. Single tank units work better in Unbound. And not auto-wrecking Immobilized Tanks makes Recovery Gear a better use of points in squads.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Telekinesis now actually has some useful powers!

[Asuryan]

Vector Strikes with Flyers and Flying monstrous creatures are still D3 but now AP 2 sooooooo things like heldrakes and their meteoric descent could potentially do 3 Str 8 AP 2 hits to something's side armor. always fun.

1) Heldrakes are str 7 iirc.

2) vector strikes are only d3 when striking out at other flyers and FMC. they only do a single hit against ground units.

[Caitsidhe]

Master of Ambush has been supercharged in 7th. Instead of a D3 it now makes the Warlord and three non-vehicle units of your choice have the Infiltrate rule. *Granted this means that any dedicated transports of said units would get it by default. This is a pretty serious boost. It means that you can actually have up to (4) units with Infiltrate as the Warlord will commute it to any unit he starts with (at least as far as Outflank is concerned).

It also means that since the Warlord gets it himself AND he can grant it to three other units, the Warlord can be infiltrated forward. Huron and Ahriman got a nice rise in stock here.

*OR NOT... damn they have the CSM: Master of Deception which is inferior to the one in the new book. Hopefully they will Faq it to be like the new 7th Edition book one. :(

[Kristopholes]

1) Heldrakes are str 7 iirc.

2) vector strikes are only d3 when striking out at other flyers and FMC. they only do a single hit against ground units.

appreciate the fix there, still a potent little maneuver.

Speaking of Huron... with psychic focus now a thing, Huron's Hamadrya that allows him to be a Psyker lvl 1 and generate a random power from Bio, Pyro or Divination each turn also allows him to have the primaris power from whatever tree he draws from that turn. that's not bad in my opinion

[fedratsailor]

Blood angel Furioso Librarians are ML2. telepathy would be very usefull for them.

[Dambiel]

Grey knights are battle brothers with all human factions, making the Inquisition codex a worthless buy at the same time.


Grey Knights can not use the summoning daemonic powers. Codex Inquisition has no such limitation and for less than 20 pts you can take 2 accolytes and a ML1 Psyker. You can also add an inquisitor with servo skulls to shut down scout moves without having to add a troupe choice.. I'd say those are two very good reasons to own the inquisition.

[Caitsidhe]

I believe I've found something interesting and new. I apologize if someone else has already pointed this out. The rules on Ordnance have changed and now exempt vehicles from the limitation of not being able to fire its other weapons. Thus, the Defiler can now fire everything rather than just being limited to the Battle Cannon on the turns the Battle Cannon is fired. I know this change will make me evaluate them again, despite their hefty price.

*Nevermind, true to Games Workshop style, they placed the rule about other weapons having to snap fire in an another section entirely. Why they couldn't put the relevant rules TOGETHER, I don't know.

[daboarder]

*Nevermind, true to Games Workshop style, they placed the rule about other weapons having to snap fire in an another section entirely. Why they couldn't put the relevant rules TOGETHER, I don't know.

Because that would require more than minimal effort

[Haighus]

I like the changes to ramming. Heavy vehicles can now ram, and with a Strength modifier too- Leman Russes always ram at S10 now! :D Fast vehicles doing a suicide charge ram have taken a bit of a hit, and only open-topped vehicles can be exploded by a ram, but I guess this is fluffy. Is a great manouevre for a shaken vehicle though, or to finish off a vehicle on it's last hull point.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

It just depends on the situation and the "flock" of dragons. When you run 3+ Helldrakes you are willing to Hover with the odd one and even Jink because the others take up the slack on the alternating turns. Mr. Mystery, I am decent enough guy and fun to play. I am also (as my friend Kerstan will tell you) very competitive. I play to win. I will adjust my lists to make it a fair fight because I want to beat you myself and give you no way to blame it on my list. "I" want to beat you. But, as a competitive player, I understand the mindset of those who don't care about the challenge and only want to win. I don't begrudge them this mindset, I just don't share it. An empty victory means nothing to me; however, those types of players are very good at logistics, and thus to beat them I must be good at logistics.

The new rules are great from my perspective because it means the rug has been yanked from under the feet of all those complaining about the Helldrake. Logistically, however, the problems remain for those trying to fight it. Logistically the return on a dragon has not altered at all. The only thing that has changed is the margin of error in your flight patterns. It takes a bit more skill and knowledge to maximize air time and targets. As long as the person controlling them applies this care, the damage output is the same. Let me put it to you this way, how long do you think it will take for the average competitive player to fly flawless patterns? :D How long do you think it will take them to figure out that two dragons working in tandem can hit the same targets as before with the added bonus of an extra torrent? It all comes back to math. You should be pleased that I am cheering on this change to the rules. :D I agree with it, although not for the reasons most people seem enchanted by it. I like it because I'm sick of listening to people complain about dragons.

I think you are really downplaying the power down, the Helldrakes just took. The reduction in fire ark from 360 to 45, for its only gun is significant. Also the Zooming flyer can only pivot once, at the start of movement. This combined with its weaker rear Armour of 10, will change there effect on the game. The chance of a flawless pattern will go way down. Their Damage output will be lower, much lower.

I agree that we might see more of them and you do gain power with the increase in numbers. I would say though that you will get less in total then you are hoping for because of their overall power down. A real problem you might find is that they cant Score while zooming. This will effect the game also in that, end game plays become more risky.



For me the elimination of the maximum on reserves means the return of my lists that hit almost entirely from reserves, i.e. coming in from Outflank, Deepstrike, and fliers of course. It means very hard times for gun line armies who got an unfair boost by the fact so many of us were forced to put half our armies on the gun range for them to attrition until our up close and personal Flamers, Meltas, Baleflamers, etc. arrived to decimate the gun lines.

I also play a army that starts off board. This strategy has gotten a bit more risky in 7th. I play with 4 flyers and a drop pod. In 7th the start of the game has made playing like this less scary for the enemy. If you win the roll to go first and then choose to deploy 1st, you get to choose who takes the 1st turn, AFTER both sides have fully deployed. That takes some of the wind out of the sail for this 'Null' type of deployment. It can still work and i hope is still unorthodox enough to cause panic in a General.

[Caitsidhe]

I think you are really downplaying the power down, the Helldrakes just took. The reduction in fire ark from 360 to 45, for its only gun is significant. Also the Zooming flyer can only pivot once, at the start of movement. This combined with its weaker rear Armour of 10, will change there effect on the game. The chance of a flawless pattern will go way down. Their Damage output will be lower, much lower.

Well I've played a fair number of games now, and included three Helldrakes every time to make sure I give them a proper test and so far they have not performed any less effectively before. The only difference is my opponents feel constrained against complaining about them. I've even had an invisible one running around in hover for awhile. That was a hoot. Do I disagree with you that they have changed? No. I do disagree with you about their fundamental purpose. They are high strength AP-3 air to ground killers. They continue to excel at that and so far I haven't even missed the larger firing arc. The fact that I just put more Helldrakes on the table without getting shamed MORE than makes up for it.


I agree that we might see more of them and you do gain power with the increase in numbers. I would say though that you will get less in total then you are hoping for because of their overall power down. A real problem you might find is that they cant Score while zooming. This will effect the game also in that, end game plays become more risky.

I wondered about that myself but didn't find them particularly vulnerable when dropping to hover. I've actually used them to score objectives in the Maelstrom missions many times. They are pretty good at suddenly going to Hover moving into scoring range and vaporizing the Troop unit I couldn't normally contest. What you seem to assume is that my comments are based on estimations. They are not. They are based on games already played. I'm thrilled with the change. I cheer you on in spreading the idea that the Helldrake is no longer the monster it was before. You go! I like that notion.

[Kristopholes]

Agreed. I've been running around with two heldrakes and the limit on their weapon hasn't really affected their usefulness at all with me. Usually by the time I have to drop them into hover for some reason or another, the enemy is too busy with everything else I'm throwing at them.

[This Dave]

For some reason it just occurred to me that with an Armored Battlegroup a squadron of Leman Russ tanks can now not only take an Objective but they also get Objective Secured as they're Troops choices in that list. This just makes me happy.