Easy way to fix the psyker phase for now.

[Xaric]

You can only take the power if your model has the mastery level to the warp cost of the power there you go all summoning spells are restricted to mastery level 3 models now can we stop whining at the fact that daemons are a core point in the psyker phase after all no one seems to be complaining that there shooting phase is ner to non exsistance...

[Charon]

We can also agree that IG may not field more than 2 Tanks or Tau have no access to Riptides and Markerlights...
Feel free to houserule it in your gaming group but it wont be an "easy" fix.

[Xaric]

Well at the moment it works out fine even if you use sacrifice to get a lord of change you still cant take summoning as he has only access to mastary lv 2 so atleast you can kill the summoners preventing them from summoning ever agien.

[Charon]

While every other army that is not deamons and doesnt have access to ML3 are stuck with ML3 powers they cant ever use in game.
Wow.

[Xaric]

Charon check 6th edition book because the rule for using psyker powers was if you could not manifest powers due to lack of warp charge know as if you had a mastery lv 1 psyker and you rolled for a 2 warp charge ability you would have to reroll the table or take the primaris power.

I am looking in the big rule book Excluding the two new tables there is 1 power that need 3 warp charges Psychic Maelstrom all the others are mostly 1 warp charge any psyker can take that and 2 warp charge most psykers can be upgraded to that.

Also Charon mastery means how well versed someone is at a particular skill so mastery lv 1 is like a acolyte mastery lv 2 is someone with basic knowledge but better then a acolyte mastery lv 3 is someone with a high knowledge of how to manifest and mastery lv 4 would be someone who is a master at what he does. The powers in the book for 3 warp charge seem like they should be used by someone with a lot of skill to manifesting them

Psychic Maelstrom "The telekine focuses his entire mental might into creating a vast maelstrom of destructive power, unleashing a storm of psychic energies that utterly consume his foes" Now do you believe someone who has little understanding like a mastery lv 1 to cast such a ability?

[Charon]

Obviously we dont have 6th edition anymore and ML1 Psykers get the primaris for free, so they cant trade it in.

As I said feel free to houserule it in YOUR gaming group but I guess you cant force anyone to eat your rules.

[Xaric]

I did not say anything about forcing anyone to eat any rules I am giving my knowledge to a forum that is technicaly a database to resolve unknown issues to the current affairs of the game by the community for the community instead of throwing information that does not help anyone.

And why did you not keep your 6th edition rule book there are fortification data sheets that you can still use in 7th edition... If you do not own the stronghold assault...

[Mr Mystery]

Psychic Phase.

Chill. Please. There's no need at all for panic.

I play Warhammer. In Warhammer, Magic is really pretty damned powerful. Yet it rarely swings the game. Why? Because players have adapted, and developed their own methods of coping. Some prefer the direct 'well, you need a head to cast a spell, can't cast a spell if you're head has been smooshed'. Others prefer 'well, I know you're going to get some through, so let's do my best to make sure they're the ones I want to let have off'.

Seriously. No need whatsoever for panic and the gnashing of the teeth and the wailing of the women. Just. Kill. The. Psyker.

[Xaric]

heh i know mr mystery but trying to resolve the issue of people with loads of mastary level ones psykers using abiltys such as summoning (3 warp charge) that are summoning pink horrors who are mastery lv 1 that can also use summoning to summon more pink horrors luckly a summoned daemon cant summon the turn it arrives but this is why people are claiming the new psyker phase is broken.

[Mr Mystery]

Horrors can go up to ML3.

Seriously. Psychic Phase - It's a bit of a red herring. To really exploit it, you have to go Daemons. And that Deamon list has to be filled up with Psykers, including no small amount of Horrors. And Horrors are pretty poop for what you pay for. T3, 1W....1A...S3....not exactly a fearsome opponent. Hell, a Guardsman can give one a run for it's money in HTH.

Essentially, nothing needs to be fixed. Would you purposefully restrict the number of guns a unit can fire? Or the number of attacks? It's a totally new phase, with the slight difference I may be able to prevent some of my opponents shenangians. Can't exactly Nullify a Thunder Hammer to the face, or a Battle Cannon up the jacksie can you?

[Xaric]

Correction Horrors are only ever ML1 but with magic made manifest it can grant them up to 3 warp charges

But I have seen people neglecting the fact that a unit can only ever cast a ability once so for example if your horrors have say summoning and a herald of tzeentch has summoning you can only ever cast that once for that unit per psyker phase.

[Mr Mystery]

Fair enough. Will have to check my Daemon book when I get home.

Even so. Have you any idea of the points it takes to get Daemons up to a reasonable number of dice for the summoning horde of doom? One example posted up? 1,500 points for 28 dice. That's all either Lords of Change, Heralds of Tzeentch, Daemon Prince's of Tzeentch, and some Horrors. None of that lot is particularly tricky to kill, especially as in order for the whole summoning thing to work you need to focus your efforts on it, meaning you're less likely to be casting Blessings to toughen up your own somewhat 'meh' troops. And when it does work? For 1,500 points, I should think so too. After all, in a common 1,850 game, that's effectively 350 points of actual offense. Which, no prizes for spotting this one, should be dealt a swift spanking by your opponents 1,850 points.

Overall, loading up for the Psychic Phase is no different to loading up entirely for HTH or Shooting. It's a calculated risk, and works best when your opponent assumes defeat from the outset.

[Xaric]

Yay finaly someone who has sense for a discussion and does not act like a child because they did not get there own way i personaly agree on this Mr mystery after all daemons dont get a shooting phase but even if other players bring psykers atleast they can shoot as well as use psyker powers so to me sound balanced :)

[Mad Cat]

Possible ways to fix the 7th edition psychic phase would be one or more of the following options:


1. Change Invisibility. It is too powerful at the moment. A good method could be to make it a blessing that makes the enemy reroll hits against the unit in both combat and shooting. In effect it becomes the opposite of Prescience. The unit can still be targeted by blast weapons (although less accurately) and of course template weapons will be uneffected. In combat rerolls like Hatred or Prescience v Invisibility will cancel each other out. In the shooting phase Prescience, Guide and Twin Linked will do the same.

2. Put a maximum limit on Psy Dice such as D6+12 or D6+18. This would discourage too many Psykers in a force as you get diminishing returns. However in 6th edition 4 level three psykers could easily get off 11 of their 12 powers. In 7th edition D6+12 Dice wouldn't get off that many as you would need to put 2D6 into each power to get a reasonable chance of casting. Higher level powers need even more. The mass casting of Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination isn't really the problem, it is the summoning daemons to get an extra 400 points a turn which can snowball as you summon more psykers for later turns. So we go on to option 3.

3. Put a limit on summoning per army (not per detachment) of 1 attempt per 1000 points (or part thereof)per turn and only allow 1 summoning of each type per turn. It would limit you to say 10 horrors and 5 fleshhounds in a 1850 point army which isn't too bad. Because of this limit casting would more likely work as you get to allocate more dice to the attempts. Also it becomes less desirable to roll on the Malific table as many times as you cannot spam them too much.

4. Prevent summoned daemons from summoning. Disallow those summoned units from rolling on the Malific table. The enemy can concentrate on killing your original units capable of summoning daemons. This works in a similar way to targeting the Necron spiders in a scarab farm list.


My personal preference would be to apply option 1 and option 3. I think these could be a decent and simple way of taking the excesses out of the 7th edition psychic phase.

[Xaric]

Disagree with number one due to it could be balanced for some army's but army's that are heavy relying on it could be a disadvantage

Agree with number two because army's that have a insane amount of psykers like in fantasy to prevent this they had a cap of 12

Agree and disagree as it would have the same effect as number one but agree because summoning addition amount of points to the total cost of the army allocation would feel unfair if that exceeds a threshold I would say you can't exceed 25% of your total army's points call this Summoner influence because too many would overwhelm the summoners control of his minions

for four i would say if the summoner dies all summoned daemons takes a perils of the warp test to indicate there summoners death

that's my imput

[Katharon]

This is retarded. I'm sorry but I need to say that off the bat. As it is now, having "Power Dice" is far more fair and evens the playing field for psykers across the whole spectrum of armies. The older behavior for executing psychic powers was, frankly, leaning towards those armies that were renown for being strong psykers (Eldar, CSM, Daemons, & SW) with high leadership across the board. But now, having to get a 4+ or higher on lot of dice to see if power goes off is more fair, random, and acutely represents the fickleness of the Warp.

If you're an army that doesn't get many psykers (Tau) then you're going to have to learn to start using even more tactics and targeting psykers the same way that we've always all gone after those Tyranid models that give them Synapse.

---

And remember about the whole daemon summoning craze that people are worried about: you still have to own the fricken models to field. You can't start setting down little marker beads and be like "hey, this is ten bloodletters." No models, no summoning. Easy solution.

(this is also why they put the summoning into the rules -- TO GET PEOPLE TO BUY MORE PLASTIC CRACK)

[Haighus]

Possible ways to fix the 7th edition psychic phase would be one or more of the following options:


1. Change Invisibility. It is too powerful at the moment. A good method could be to make it a blessing that makes the enemy reroll hits against the unit in both combat and shooting. In effect it becomes the opposite of Prescience. The unit can still be targeted by blast weapons (although less accurately) and of course template weapons will be uneffected. In combat rerolls like Hatred or Prescience v Invisibility will cancel each other out. In the shooting phase Prescience, Guide and Twin Linked will do the same.

2. Put a maximum limit on Psy Dice such as D6+12 or D6+18. This would discourage too many Psykers in a force as you get diminishing returns. However in 6th edition 4 level three psykers could easily get off 11 of their 12 powers. In 7th edition D6+12 Dice wouldn't get off that many as you would need to put 2D6 into each power to get a reasonable chance of casting. Higher level powers need even more. The mass casting of Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination isn't really the problem, it is the summoning daemons to get an extra 400 points a turn which can snowball as you summon more psykers for later turns. So we go on to option 3.

3. Put a limit on summoning per army (not per detachment) of 1 attempt per 1000 points (or part thereof)per turn and only allow 1 summoning of each type per turn. It would limit you to say 10 horrors and 5 fleshhounds in a 1850 point army which isn't too bad. Because of this limit casting would more likely work as you get to allocate more dice to the attempts. Also it becomes less desirable to roll on the Malific table as many times as you cannot spam them too much.

4. Prevent summoned daemons from summoning. Disallow those summoned units from rolling on the Malific table. The enemy can concentrate on killing your original units capable of summoning daemons. This works in a similar way to targeting the Necron spiders in a scarab farm list.


My personal preference would be to apply option 1 and option 3. I think these could be a decent and simple way of taking the excesses out of the 7th edition psychic phase.
I like 4, that makes sense IMO, and Invisibility may need to be nerfed, but I don't like 2 and 3. Instead of 2, it would make more sense if you instead capped how many dice could be used to manifest an particular power, so no more than, say, 5 dice per power (and the same for Deny the Witch, as it stands, a very Psyker heavy army can prevent an army with a lone Psyker from pretty much using any powers at all). This means that an army of units like Horrors can still be a fluffy Tzeentch list using Witchfire powers and so on, because it has the Warp charge available to do so, but any one Psyker can't harness enough charge to effectively guarantee any particular keystone power going off. 5 dice, on average, won't successfully cast one of the summoning spells without re-rolls, but it isn't impossible, and that would make a greater risk aspect to the decision.
I think 3 is just covered better by 4 personally.

[Garma]

heh i know mr mystery but trying to resolve the issue of people with loads of mastary level ones psykers using abiltys such as summoning (3 warp charge) that are summoning pink horrors who are mastery lv 1 that can also use summoning to summon more pink horrors luckly a summoned daemon cant summon the turn it arrives but this is why people are claiming the new psyker phase is broken.

Don't demons (like demons of tzeentch) have to choose at least one power from their god table before rolling on another one? The summon power would bring in a unit of ten that could only roll on their tzeentch table thus not being able to roll on other one. I'd have to wait until I get home to confirm in my demon codex.

[Mr Mystery]

Nope. Not according to the FAQ (though remember, FAQs are often subject to change. Fittingly. When you think about it)

[Tudd Fudders]

I read these threads and sometimes I wonder how many people actually have played 7th edition yet.

In my past three games the psychic phase has been fine and kinda fun. I even played a game where some guy brought nothing but 7 GK Grandmasters and a land raider. He was able to roll for a whole deck worth if powers, and have 14 warp charges on the pull.

All that happen was that he PoTW almost every turn trying to pull of heavy magic combos and was sometimes easily denied.

As for this daemon abuse.... It honestly seems more like a problem people let happen instead of actively trying to counter it.

[Lord Asterion]

Don't demons (like demons of tzeentch) have to choose at least one power from their god table before rolling on another one? The summon power would bring in a unit of ten that could only roll on their tzeentch table thus not being able to roll on other one. I'd have to wait until I get home to confirm in my demon codex.

They do, but now Daemons and Marked Psykers get the Primarius for free, which counts as their choice, so they can dip into another discipline, other Psykers get a free Primarius if they on'y take powers from one discipline.

[Charon]

Please re-read.
Daemons MAY get powers from their god. They do not have to take them.
CSM MUST roll on the table once. The primaris you get for free does not count as you do not roll for it which the rule clearly states.

[Lord Asterion]

Please re-read.
Daemons MAY get powers from their god. They do not have to take them.
CSM MUST roll on the table once. The primaris you get for free does not count as you do not roll for it which the rule clearly states.

The rules states nothing of the sort.

[Charon]

The rules states nothing of the sort.

Codex Chaos Daemons Page 68:


For each point of Masterylevel he has, a psyker may make a roll on one of the tables available to him. If the psyker is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, he MAY roll up to half of their powers (rounding fractions up) on the chart that corresponds to their patron.

No the rules clearly say nothing like that.

Codex Chaos Space Marines, Page 70

For each Mastery Level he has, Psyker may make a roll on one of the tables available to him. If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they MUST ROLL at least one, and may roll up to half, of their powers on the table that corresponds to their patron deity.

Again.. clearly the rules state nothing of that sort.

Unless you play 40k and not some other game like you obviously do.

[Garma]

Nope. Not according to the FAQ (though remember, FAQs are often subject to change. Fittingly. When you think about it) Just checked both csm and demons; it was the CSM that I was thinking of :)

[Katharon]

I'm thinking that they'll have to FAQ the CSM codex to allow CSM sorcerers and Ahriman to *choose* to roll on their chosen Chaos God's psykic chart -- otherwise they will never be able to get that free primaris power. Ahriman in particular gets screwed out of having four psykic powers due to the new rule.

[Charon]

I actually think that not getting the free primaris for CSM is intended and they want to compensate them by giving out the free god power. Otherwise they would end up with 2 free powers.

[Lord Asterion]

They won't get the free Primairus from any other type because they won't only generate powers from one discipline, the whole point of the rule is that because they're marked they HAVE to take a god specific power, this way, they get a free power without having to dedicate themselves to the gods powers. Its really quite simple, sorry you didn't understand it and had a bit of a shout.

[Charon]

CD still dont HAVE to take a god specific power. They MAY.

[Lord Asterion]

That wasn't the point, the point was you saying the Primarius doesn't count as the specific power for Marked and Daemons.

The rules don't say that anywhere.

[Charon]

If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they MUST ROLL at least one,...

As you dont ROLL for the primaris (you get it for free, no dice involved) you still have to ROLL one power.

[Lord Asterion]

.. Seriously?

[Charon]

Seriously.
The wording is very different from the daemons codex. "may choose" and "must roll" are very different from each other.

[Kristopholes]

Coming out of lurking for this haha. Why do you get the Primaris power for free? wouldn't you only get the primaris if you rolled for a power from that tree and chose to take the primaris instead? I could easily be missing something but that didn't quite make sense to me

[DarkLink]

Chaos focus is seperate from psychic focus. Chaos always gets the primaris for free, everyone else has to roll on that table to do so.

[Katharon]

I actually think that not getting the free primaris for CSM is intended and they want to compensate them by giving out the free god power. Otherwise they would end up with 2 free powers.


They never get two free powers. The way the rules are written, you only get the free Primaris power when you only take a single Psykic Discipline. Ahriman, due to his Mark of Tzeentch, is forced to take one Tzeentchian power and is not allowed to take more than two Tzeentchian powers from that discipline. As such he can never gain any free Primaris psyker because, RAW, he is not capable of taking only powers from a single Psykic Discipline.

[DarkLink]

Again, Chaos has a different version of the Psychic Focus rule.

[Katharon]

Again, Chaos has a different version of the Psychic Focus rule.

No, they don't. The only thing different from Chaos psykers and Non-Chaos Psykers is that a Chaos Psyker is required, by the rules governing Marks of Chaos and godly allegiance, to take one Chaos psykic Power in alignment with the god and their particular chaos mark.

As a result of that, special characters like Ahriman get screwed out of taking up to 4 powers whereas psykers like Tigurius and Mephiston get to pump out 4 standard if they so wish (taking all powers from one discipline).

[DarkLink]

?

[Sainhann]

Simple the total number of power dice.

Like a 2 x d3's & d6 minimum is three dice max is 12 average is around 5-7.

Oh and your opponents gets the same number so dice.

[Xaric]

Easy way to deal with some of the summoning from the last game i play is to roll 2 dice if the player rolled 3 successis because only one has to roll a 6 to deny the summoning :D

[daboarder]

No xaric you need to negate all warpcharges even ones in excess

[Charon]

They never get two free powers. The way the rules are written, you only get the free Primaris power when you only take a single Psykic Discipline. Ahriman, due to his Mark of Tzeentch, is forced to take one Tzeentchian power and is not allowed to take more than two Tzeentchian powers from that discipline. As such he can never gain any free Primaris psyker because, RAW, he is not capable of taking only powers from a single Psykic Discipline.

And your point beeing? Apart from parroting what I just said?

[SnakeChisler]

I just don't see a problem at the minute

Its going to take a while for people to get used to 7th but demons got severely nerfed by not being able to fly into combat

Also I've played a few games and it seems fine to me

+ I did a load of testing on psychic casting in normal circumstances to get warp 2 power off you need 5 dice for 80%

This seems to be a cut off point as moving up to 6 + dice I succeeded in blowing myself up a lot

Its like they have a bucket of dice but to even get the pink horror shooting off their gonna have to use 3 and remember the horrors only generate 1

As far as I can see this is a mythical problem that's not really been thought through, on the face of it invisibility looks OP but we'll have to see how it plays as I said throwing loads of dice at something will just get you blown up

[Katharon]

Read this entire post before making a reply – that goes for anyone. Ok, let's start this from the top Charon. Seeing as how you are being quite “flamey” at the moment and my urge to begin a list of degenerate terms is growing stronger.


Asterion made one mistake in his original post:


They do, but now Daemons and Marked Psykers get the Primarius for free, which counts as their choice, so they can dip into another discipline, other Psykers get a free Primarius if they on'y take powers from one discipline.

That is incorrect. There is no rule or text in the codex Chaos Space Marines that allows a Psyker to get any Primaris Power from one of the Chaos God Psykic Powers list just because you take one. There is no such thing as getting that free primaris for getting just one of the Chaos God powers. It in fact says you no psyker using those powers may get more than half their allotted powers from those tables. (P.70 “If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of particular Chaos God, they must roll at least one, and may roll up to half, of their powers on the table that corresponds to their patron deity.)


First, you said this:


Please re-read.
Daemons MAY get powers from their god. They do not have to take them.
CSM MUST roll on the table once. The primaris you get for free does not count as you do not roll for it which the rule clearly states.

So we have a perpetuation of the mistake that Asterion made, in believing that CSM Psykers got the Primaris Power for free. As stated above and in the codex, they never get anything for free and are not allowed BY THE RULE to get ALL of their powers from a single Chaos God Psykic Power table.

Also, Asterion was addressing your division between “Daemons” and “CSM” in that quote when he said:


The rules states nothing of the sort.

As the rules state – and I'll go ahead and copy-paste it a second time for ease of reference – P.70 “If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of particular Chaos God, they must roll at least one, and may roll up to half, of their powers on the table that corresponds to their patron deity.. As such there is no division between Psykers and Daemons in the CSM Codex – they both must roll for one power from their respective deity.

Your follow up post addressed the Codex Chaos Daemons. Lord Asterion and I were not talking about any rules from the Codex Chaos Daemons. We were only talking about the Codex Chaos Space Marines. So why you felt it was necessary to quote a rule for a different army in a different codex flabbergasts me. We're talking solely about the Codex Chaos Space Marines.



Then I said this:


I'm thinking that they'll have to FAQ the CSM codex to allow CSM sorcerers and Ahriman to *choose* to roll on their chosen Chaos God's psykic chart -- otherwise they will never be able to get that free primaris power. Ahriman in particular gets screwed out of having four psykic powers due to the new rule.

Again, only talking about the CSM Codex and addressing the fact that the current RULE is that they MUST roll at least once on their particular Chaos deity's psykic power table but are not allowed to take ALL of their powers from it.

In reply you said:


I actually think that not getting the free primaris for CSM is intended and they want to compensate them by giving out the free god power. Otherwise they would end up with 2 free powers.

Again, we have the perpetuation of the original mistake that Lord Asterion made and further proof that neither of you took a great deal of time to check the codex in all aspects for this particular argument – a significant failing in my opinion but then I do some work as a paralegal and I'm kind of a **** on those particulars.

So, no, there are no free powers being given to the CSM Psykers. In fact they are the ONLY codex that apparently cannot get any Primaris power for free as a result of following the new rules for Psykic Focus.

Then we had this exchange between Lord Asterion and you Charon:


They won't get the free Primairus from any other type because they won't only generate powers from one discipline, the whole point of the rule is that because they're marked they HAVE to take a god specific power, this way, they get a free power without having to dedicate themselves to the gods powers. Its really quite simple, sorry you didn't understand it and had a bit of a shout.


CD still dont HAVE to take a god specific power. They MAY.

Asterion was trying to reiterate the fact that both he and I had tried to make clear regarding the rules for CSM psykers IN the CSM Codex. You then went and referenced the Chaos Daemons Codex, which is a completely different army and codex...

Asterion was correct as well in that only a Sorcerer from the CSM Codex that chooses to NOT take a Mark of Chaos (and therefore loses out on a lot of buffs) is able to roll on a single Psykic Power Table (and quite possibly the only CSM psyker – daemon or otherwise – that can take all their powers from a Chaos God Psykic Powers table) and is therefore eligible for the free primaris power as a result of the new Psykic Focus rule.

And again, Lord Asterion made a follow up post that tried to clarify his point of quoting only from the CSM codex.


That wasn't the point, the point was you saying the Primarius doesn't count as the specific power for Marked and Daemons.

The rules don't say that anywhere.


To which you replied...


As you dont ROLL for the primaris (you get it for free, no dice involved) you still have to ROLL one power.

Again, the perpetuation of the original mistake.

Then, after Asterion made his “Seriously?” post, you made another post about referencing the Chaos Daemons Codex – which was not at all what our conversation and discussion had been based upon.


Seriously.
The wording is very different from the daemons codex. "may choose" and "must roll" are very different from each other.

Then DarkLink came in and made a post about “Chaos Psychic Focus” - which is only known to those that own a copy of the new rules (not everyone does DarkLink, so next time be a bit more cheritable in saying “Oh, didn't you know dear chap? There's a new rule in the new rulebook about it!”).

So now we all know that they DO indeed get the psykic power! Woohoo! However, that still doesn't solve the original issue that Lord Asterion and I were making: that Sorcerers with a Mark of Chaos and Daemons of a particular Chaos God FROM THE CSM CODEX, and Ahriman in particular, are not able to gain the primaris power from the non-Chaos God Psykic Power tables.

Ahriman with his Level 4 Mastery is stuck knowing “Tzeentch's Firestorm” and is forever incapable of taking the Primaris of Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy. It's a stumbling block really. But I suppose that it is suppose to be the trade off in return for the benefits of the various Marks. Not a very good one in my opinion, but there it is.

So, long story short, you were misunderstanding us as a result of referencing a codex different from the one that Lord Asterion and I were referencing (Chaos Daemons Codex instead of Chaos Space Marines Codex) and grew exponentially snarky as the conversation went along.

[Kristopholes]

That was simply way too much work for your end point haha. Yes, Chaos Psychic Focus is in the new rule book and allows you to get the primaris power for free. I had a conversation about Chaos not being able to get psychic focus with some locals and it was pretty much agreed that THAT is the case. Ahriman gets screwed out of a primaris power (oh no, he can only have 5 powers!?!??!!) and other Chaos Sorcerers in order to get the regular psychic focus have to NOT take a Mark of Chaos. This of course is retarded when you're talking a +1 to invuln, initiative, toughness, over a freakin primaris power. They may FAQ it out with the rulebook FAQ but as you said, I think its something of a trade off for having devoted your soul to a Chaos God (who are as fickle as the dice we roll every game).

[DarkLink]

Then DarkLink came in and made a post about “Chaos Psychic Focus” - which is only known to those that own a copy of the new rules (not everyone does DarkLink, so next time be a bit more cheritable in saying “Oh, didn't you know dear chap? There's a new rule in the new rulebook about it!”).

Why are you sounding self-righteous to me? You posted something that was partially incorrect, so I mentioned that chaos had their own version of psychic focus. You didn't believe me, so I posted a picture of the rule. I missed that your main point was about other primaris powers, but csm and daemons do still get their primaris for free. Chill.

[sfshilo]

I actually think that not getting the free primaris for CSM is intended and they want to compensate them by giving out the free god power. Otherwise they would end up with 2 free powers.

It's to balance out the fact that DAEMONS and CSM cannot have a psychic focus due to their mark, unless they take all of their marked powers (But what is the point of that?)

It's actually kind of nice....

[Charon]

So, long story short, you were misunderstanding us as a result of referencing a codex different from the one that Lord Asterion and I were referencing (Chaos Daemons Codex instead of Chaos Space Marines Codex) and grew exponentially snarky as the conversation went along.

No there was no misuderstanding. There are 2 rules. Psychic focus (neither Daemons nor CSM qualifie for that) and their "chaos focus" (which grants you the gods primaris and prevents psychic focus from happening).
The thing is that Ahriman in your exampe gets the Firestorm and STILL has to roll one more power of Tzzentch s the rules clearly say he has to ROLL at least one power. You dont roll for the primaris, thus you will end up with 2 (!) Tzzentch powers.


It's to balance out the fact that DAEMONS and CSM cannot have a psychic focus due to their mark, unless they take all of their marked powers (But what is the point of that?)

It's actually kind of nice....

This is exactly what I was saying.

[Katharon]

Why are you sounding self-righteous to me? You posted something that was partially incorrect, so I mentioned that chaos had their own version of psychic focus. You didn't believe me, so I posted a picture of the rule. I missed that your main point was about other primaris powers, but csm and daemons do still get their primaris for free. Chill.

It's not self-righteous, it's fallacious anger. Obviously not everyone owns a copy of the rules yet and all you did was made a reference to it before posting that picture. Your 1st post just said that there was a rule that did say they got the primaris psyker for free and that Chaos had their own version of Focus -- to whit anyone without the new BRB wouldn't know. So if you had said "In the new BRB it says..." then the full context of your 1st post would have been understood and I would have believed you. Hence why posting the picture first would have been probably even better than anything.

Quite chill.


No there was no misuderstanding. There are 2 rules. Psychic focus (neither Daemons nor CSM qualifie for that) and their "chaos focus" (which grants you the gods primaris and prevents psychic focus from happening).
The thing is that Ahriman in your exampe gets the Firestorm and STILL has to roll one more power of Tzzentch s the rules clearly say he has to ROLL at least one power. You dont roll for the primaris, thus you will end up with 2 (!) Tzzentch powers.

There was, because they're two different codicies. The Chaos Psykic Focus rule covers for both the codicies, but the rules that Asterion and I were talking about were only from the CSM codex. And now *you're* the one parroting me. He does indeed have to roll on the Tzeentch table to generate one power -- but he is not allowed to take more than half of his powers from that table. He and other Sorcerers that have Marks are unable to take ALL their powers from a single psykic discipline -- which to me is a bit of a let down and the reason why I hope it will be FAQ'd in the future.

It's not an admission of losing anything, Charon, we were just talking from different perspectives not fully understanding each other due to the referencing of different codicies.

[marful]

Obviously not everyone owns a copy of the rules yet and all you did was made a reference to it before posting that picture.
...
So if you had said "In the new BRB it says..." then the full context of your 1st post would have been understood and I would have believed you.
So let me clarify your position:

You were not aware of the Psychic Focus Rules nor the Chaos Psychic Focus Rules found on page 22 of the 7th Edition Rulebook.

But if DarkLink had notified you of these rules, prior to you refuting his claims that the Chaos Psychic Focus is a separate rule to the Psychic Focus rule, you would have believed him. But you didn't know of these two rules... so, in short, you are arguing about rules, telling people they are wrong about rules, that you admittedly do not know about.

Now you are basically admitting you were wrong, without actually admitting you were wrong?


It's not self-righteous, it's fallacious anger.
The only logical course of action now, for you, after this stated position is to leave this discussion. No offense, but it's quite hypocritical to use the words "fallacious" and "anger" directed at others when you don't even know the rules you are arguing about, and you are telling people they are wrong about rules in the basic rulebook you admitted you weren't aware of.


*** WALL OF TEXT HERE ***
*** SKIP TO END FOR CLIFF NOTES VERSIONS ***


To the question at hand about Chaos and Psychic Powers...

The rules for Psychic Focus states: "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even i he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."

The rules for Chaos Psychic Focus states: "If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons), that model automaticall knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows."

So, the question then becomes, what exactly does the rules mean by "Generating Psychic Powers?" Does the free Primaris power from Chaos Psychic Focus count towards "generating a psychic power?"

Page 23 of the 7'th Ed basic rulebook states: "Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." Nowhere under "Generating Psychic Powers" does it mention any way to gain psychic powers other than rolling randomly for them under a discipline with the single exception being Psychic Powers specifically listed under a models unit entry in their codex. So, generating a psychic power means rolling randomly on a discipline to determine what power you get. Ergo, if didn't roll for a power, you didn't "generate" it.

Thus the free primaris power from Chaos Psychic Focus doesn't block a Psyker with a Mark of Chaos (or Daemon of Chaos) from gaining Psychic Focus as well as Chaos Psychic Focus.


However, as mentioned by Katharon, in the Chaos Space Marines Codex, page 70, under "Generating Psychic Powers" it states: "If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they must roll at least one, and may roll up to half, of their powers on the table that corresponds to their patron deity.

This does two things, first it coincides with the "Generating Psychic Powers" from the 7th Ed BRB reaffirming the definition of "generating psychic powers" (which interestingly came out afterwards) as being those powers specifically rolled randomly for within a Psychic discpline. Second, it means that a Psyker chosen from the Chaos Space Marines codex must always generates one of their pscyhic powers (randomly) from their respective marked disciplines, forever precluding them from gaining access to Psychic Focus.

But if they do not have a Mark of Chaos (or are not a Daemon of a specific God) then they can gain access to Psychic Focus (but they lose access to Chaos Psychic Focus).


The point of note comes, however, from the rules for the Chaos Daemons Codex, page 68, under "Generating Psychic Powers" where it states: [i]" If the psyker is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they may roll up to half their powers (rounding fractions up) on the chart that corresponds to their patron."

Notice that the rules here under the Chaos Daemons Codex state the choice "may" meaning you do not have to. This means that a Chaos Daemon Psyker can gain both Psychic Focus, and Chaos Psychic Focus as they can choose to generate (i.e. roll randomly for) all of their psychic powers from a single discipline. As the free Primaris Psychic Power granted by Chaos Psychic Focus was never generated as per the rules for Generating Psychic Powers, it doesn't qualify for Psychic Focus' exclusionary clause as all of that Psyker's powers were "generated" under one discipline.

Thus, a level one Daemon Psyker gains three Psychic Powers: One "Generated" power, 1 Primaris Power from Psychic Focus and 1 Primaris Power from Chaos Psychic Focus.

A level four Daemon Psyker gains six Psychic Powers. Four "generated" powers, 1 Primaris Power from Psychic Focus and 1 Primaris Power from Chaos Psychic Focus.


Another part to this is that under Psychic Focus, the last sentence states: "If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris powers.)"

However! On page 23 of the 7th Ed BRB, it clearly states that... "Psychers generate powers before the game begins." Thus, the free primaris power gained from Chaos Psychic Focus, as it was gained prior to the game beginning, doesn't exclude a Psyker from gaining Psychic Focus. But any summoned models, that enter the game via conjuration, and gain a Primaris Power due to Chaos Psychic Focus, have gained such "during the course of the game" and are excluded from gaining Psychic Focus.


Also of note is that the free Primaris Power under Chaos Psychic Focus does not count towards how many psychic powers from a Chaos Discpline a model can generate. As this limit is only to how many powers a Psyker generates (rolls randomly for).

So a mastery level 1 Psyker with a Mark of Chaos can generate ALL of their powers from a single discipline (1/2 = 0.5 rounding up to 1) and thus also gain access to Psychic Focus, but as they already have the Primaris Power it is really wasted and moot.


*** CLIFF NOTES ***

1.) The extra primaris powers from Chaos Psychic Focus aren't generated and thus don't count to excluding a model from gaining Psychic Focus and an addition free Primaris Power.

2.) Psykers from the Chaos Daemons Codex that are part of the army list can gain both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus, but summoned Chaos Daemon Pykers can not.

[Katharon]

I'm impressed that you felt the need to create a new forum profile just to reply Charon-puppet. That said, I was already aware of the Psykic Focus -- but not of the Chaos Psykic Focus. And yes, if you refute any claim without some basis of proof then naturally you do not have to accept the premise stated. He said that there was a difference between Psykic Focus and Chaos Psykic Focus, but did not source his reply -- so I, not owning the BRB and only knowing about Psykic Focus, used what was available to me (CSM Codex) to say that there was nothing in that codex regarding such a rule. He then pasted the picture from the BRB and provided the proof required for acceptance of the premise. End of discussion.

And again, you're focusing on the Daemon Codex. Also, I think that having the entire argument stand upon the word "may" is so weak that any right-minded individual would punch the guy who tried to make that argument in a tournament setting. If you're doing friendly games and can convince your local store/game club friends to believe it, then that's on them for being duped.

[Charon]

So in your opinion there is no difference between "may" and "must" ?

[marful]

I'm impressed that you felt the need to create a new forum profile just to reply Charon-puppet.
Actually, I'm a completely different person. You can easily verify this by looking at my join date: July 2013, where Charon's is March 2014.

So if Charon and I were the same person (which we are not, lol), as I joined this site first, Charon would be my puppet.


And again, you're focusing on the Daemon Codex. Also, I think that having the entire argument stand upon the word "may" is so weak that any right-minded individual would punch the guy who tried to make that argument in a tournament setting. If you're doing friendly games and can convince your local store/game club friends to believe it, then that's on them for being duped.

There is quite a bit difference between "must" and "may". Is the Chaos Daemons Codex incorrect in that the intent is that you "must" generate one power from the marked discipline? Maybe. If so it will have to be addressed in a FAQ.

As it stands, Must and May are two completely different things. The latter is optional and the former is mandatory. If you can't distinguish the difference between the two there is really no reason to continue discussing anything with you further; because clearly you are not a rational person.

[DarkLink]

GW's convention is to use May as an equivalent to "has the option to". Otherwise, basically every unit in the game would not have the "option" to take special/heavy weapons, they would be required to take special/heavy weapons, as the standard wording is "the unit may take xxx".

[Charon]

Actually, I'm a completely different person. You can easily verify this by looking at my join date: July 2013, where Charon's is March 2014.

So if Charon and I were the same person (which we are not, lol), as I joined this site first, Charon would be my puppet.

Marful is not talking the truth here. In fact i'm the doctor and went back to 2013 to create a smurf account to safe the world from people arguing rules without even owning the rulebook.

[marful]

GW's convention is to use May as an equivalent to "has the option to". Otherwise, basically every unit in the game would not have the "option" to take special/heavy weapons, they would be required to take special/heavy weapons, as the standard wording is "the unit may take xxx".
Do you feel "right-minded" individuals want to "punch you" when you don't take special/heavy weapons on your models?

[DarkLink]

I don't think many "right-minded" individuals would have the balls to punch me.

[Katharon]

marful is not talking the truth here. In fact i'm the doctor and went back to 2013 to create a smurf account to safe the world from people arguing rules without even owning the rulebook.

I KNEW IT! lol

[John Bower]

I'm impressed that you felt the need to create a new forum profile just to reply Charon-puppet. That said, I was already aware of the Psykic Focus -- but not of the Chaos Psykic Focus. And yes, if you refute any claim without some basis of proof then naturally you do not have to accept the premise stated. He said that there was a difference between Psykic Focus and Chaos Psykic Focus, but did not source his reply -- so I, not owning the BRB and only knowing about Psykic Focus, used what was available to me (CSM Codex) to say that there was nothing in that codex regarding such a rule. He then pasted the picture from the BRB and provided the proof required for acceptance of the premise. End of discussion.

And again, you're focusing on the Daemon Codex. Also, I think that having the entire argument stand upon the word "may" is so weak that any right-minded individual would punch the guy who tried to make that argument in a tournament setting. If you're doing friendly games and can convince your local store/game club friends to believe it, then that's on them for being duped.

To be fair if you don't own the BRB then how can you begin to debate it's rules? You would surely then still be playing 6th so the 'psychic focus' rule has no bearing on your games. It's a 7th ed rule for which you need a 7th ed rulebook to play.

[Kristopholes]

I KNEW IT! lol

...covering with humor? Nice.

So we can all agree that the psychic phase is actually fairly well balanced considering the difficulty involved and the fairness of taking psychic focus away from Chaos? Fantastic. Despite some deviations, this thread did give me a clearer understanding of all of it so, thanks gents.

[Katharon]

To be fair if you don't own the BRB then how can you begin to debate it's rules? You would surely then still be playing 6th so the 'psychic focus' rule has no bearing on your games. It's a 7th ed rule for which you need a 7th ed rulebook to play.

I've played two games of 7th with people that own the rules. I myself haven't decided if I actually want to fork over the necessary money for another BRB when its likely that we might just see another BRB in another year or two. By comparison my 5th edition BRB lasted for a good four years...so yeah.

I've been basing my arguments over what I remember. The two games I played was Imperial Guard versus Blood Angels, and then IG versus Orks -- so there was no need to reference "Chaos Psykic Focus" when none of us were using Chaos codicies.

[Charon]

Which is not in the chaos codex but in the rulebook...

[DarkLink]

I've played two games of 7th with people that own the rules. I myself haven't decided if I actually want to fork over the necessary money for another BRB when its likely that we might just see another BRB in another year or two. By comparison my 5th edition BRB lasted for a good four years...so yeah.


Already decided it's not worth $85. I don't want an expensive, fancy pack of books. I want one of those mini-rulebooks for a relatively cheap price, or a non-ipad ebook with all the hyperlinks in it (which I don't think they produce). Lacking that, I'm not wasting my money.