Malefic powers and demons..... why the 7th Edition physic phase sucks [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

ElectricPaladin

05-25-2014, 11:22 PM

As several of the commenters pointed out, we still don't know who in the Daemons codex will be allowed to take Daemonology. For all we know, the power will be sharply restricted within the codex. For example, if you replay that game with only the lord of change allowed to take the power, the situation changes significantly. You now need to keep that lord of change safe, which is something your opponent can try to stop. If you keep him safe by keeping him in your backfield, hiding in a ruin, you are sharply limited in which daemons you can summon, and if you want to summon a close combat unit - bloodletters, for example - you will need to risk your lord of change by moving him up the field or face the certainty that your bloodletters will be shot off the board as they advance.

What if only Daemon princes can take Daemonology? Now the issue is even sharper - princes become necessary for the "Daemon Summoning" list, but with T5, keeping them alive is difficult. After hearing everyone pan princes for their lack of survivability, wouldn't that be a fun wrinkle?

It's certainly true that as it stands now, nobody can take any of the Daemonology powers because rules as written, nobody's codex says they can. Hell, at the moment we only know two things for sure: 1) Ezekiel of the Dark Angels can take Malfic Daemonology and 2) somebody with the Daemon USR can take it (strongly implied by the limitations on the use of Malfic Daemonology for anyone without that USR).

The same may well be true of Santic Daemonology. Before we freak out about every squad of Grey Knights having a vortex grenade, we need to consider that perhaps only Grey Knights librarians or Inquisitors will get access to the discipline, and squads will have to be satisfied with other powers, or specific powers from within Santic (ie. Hammerhand, etc) rather than rolling as normal.

I understand your anxiety. I have traded and sold away some Eldar I've been sitting on because summoning Daemons seemed fun. I don't give a rat's booty for the competitive scene, but I would hate for it to be a broken strategy that will lose me friends if I ever try to play it at game night.

However, I still council caution. Like I said, while it's obvious that the Daemonology powers are potent - and maybe they're potent enough to crack your competitive scene wide open - we don't know if they're actually potent enough to "ruin" the game. The FAQs will (hopefully) answer all.

EDIT: Additionally, you got really lucky rolling the portalglyph. Were you rocking some houserule that lets you chose your Exalted Gift? Is there something to the Belakor dataslate that I don't know about? While I definitely dream of cramming my Summon All the Things list with as many Exalted Gifts as I'm allowed in hopes of rolling the portalglyph, it's still up to the dice if you get it.

daboarder

05-25-2014, 11:31 PM

ElectricPaladin

05-25-2014, 11:36 PM

Quick reply. You do get to choose to swap an exalted gift for a number of "primaris" relics ep. The grimoire is one and the portal glyph is another

So you only need 1 "roll" to be garraunteed the glyph

That's right... thank you.

I'm pretty new to the Daemons 'dex. I knew that each category of Gift could revert to a list of "primaris" options. I'd forgotten that the relics were one.

Well, that's good news, I suppose...

Anyway, I think that the rest of my points re: who gets the power are still valid. Getting a portal glyph into position where the stuff coming out of it doesn't have to cross the board and the glyph itself won't be shot to death still takes some doing.

pinkcarson

05-25-2014, 11:41 PM

EDIT: Additionally, you got really lucky rolling the portalglyph. Were you rocking some houserule that lets you chose your Exalted Gift? Is there something to the Belakor dataslate that I don't know about? While I definitely dream of cramming my Summon All the Things list with as many Exalted Gifts as I'm allowed in hopes of rolling the portalglyph, it's still up to the dice if you get it.

Exalted rewards "primaris" or #0 power is to choose a hellforged artifact (p.67). Portalglyph is on the list of hellforged artifacts (p.65). No luck involved.

lattd

05-25-2014, 11:43 PM

So the problem isn't the rulebook it's the codex? I fully expect male fix to be only available to heralds and greater daemons. If that is the change when the codex comes out is the rule still broken, I can also see the grimnoire being changed.

daboarder

05-25-2014, 11:46 PM

oh aye the other points are valid, Personally I think its going to be heralds, princes and greater daemons (no horrors) as they all already have access to BRB powers and it would be odd to see certain units be limited to certain disciplines but it would address the exponential growth problem.

Of course that then raises the issue of why there are no day one erratta's. I mean this is 2014, having the files ready to go on release day morning requires negligible effort. And for a product that costs $140 its not unreasonable to expect it to be complete straight out the box.

And yes before the other crowd starts arguing about entitlement I do think that being told the specifics of how one of the major sales pitches of a new product works to be a reasonable request.

edit: and even if the maelific powers are limited you still have daemons that have so many rolls and warpcharges they can hand out invisibillity and other powers like candy.

So the problem isn't the rulebook it's the codex? I fully expect male fix to be only available to heralds and greater daemons. If that is the change when the codex comes out is the rule still broken, I can also see the grimnoire being changed.

Not really, the codex certainly wasnt the problem in 6th edition (baring grimoire) its the changes brought on directly by 6th ed (the entire maelific tree, invisibillity, deny the witch changes etc) that are causing problems.

ElectricPaladin

05-25-2014, 11:51 PM

Of course that then raises the issue of why there are no day one erratta's. I mean this is 2014, having the files ready to go on release day morning requires negligible effort. And for a product that costs $140 its not unreasonable to expect it to be complete straight out the box.

And yes before the other crowd starts arguing about entitlement I do think that being told the specifics of how one of the major sales pitches of a new product works to be a reasonable request.

I think that Day One would be nice, but not necessary. I'd say that if we see the FAQs by the next business day - that would be tomorrow - then GW has discharged their duty. A major rollout like a new edition has probably taken up a lot of their manpower. If we don't see the FAQs within a week of release, though, I'll start to get annoyed.

edit: and even if the maelific powers are limited you still have daemons that have so many rolls and warpcharges they can hand out invisibillity and other powers like candy.

I agree. I think it's Invisibility that's still the main problem.

DarkLink

05-26-2014, 12:29 AM

While it may be technically true that the power will be limited by the availability of daemonology, that's a red herring. The whole point is, the powers are broken. It's blatantly obvious that any number of codices are supposed to have it available, even if you can rules lawyer your way into claiming it's illegal for now. Either way, the community will likely just ban the powers.

Lexington

05-26-2014, 12:32 AM

As several of the commenters pointed out, we still don't know who in the Daemons codex will be allowed to take Daemonology. For all we know, the power will be sharply restricted within the codex.
The idea that the Games Workshop of 2014 would make any kind of useful restriction on who can use a psychic power that requires players to buy large quantities of models is...well, optimistic is about the best word I can come up with here. C'mon now. This is the same edition that has Imperial psykers summoning Daemons willy-nilly. Good sense has long since left the building.

That said, a simple house rule can curb the problems of Malefic powers without dulling them into uselessness. "Each Malefic power may only be used once per turn by any army" solves it pretty quickly. I'd additionally turn Possession into a once-per-game power, and limit Marked models to summoning Daemons of their own Chaos Power, but those don't seem strictly necessary.

ElectricPaladin

05-26-2014, 12:36 AM

This is the same edition that has Imperial psykers summoning Daemons willy-nilly. Good sense has long since left the building.

Causing a perils on any double is hardly "will-nilly." It's a good way to lose your psyker very quickly, and possibly without ever putting a Daemon on the table. I don't foresee a lot of non-Daemons or CSM players using Daemonology outside of 100% narrative play.

daboarder

05-26-2014, 12:40 AM

there are psykers who can do it, but they are few and far between

If I can find the points in my lists I plan on running a 4 W IWND sorcerer in my chaos list as a daemonologist. the 4 wounds and the chance at a regen combined with Ld 10 mean that the chances of him actually dieing are pretty slim

Lexington

05-26-2014, 12:47 AM

Causing a perils on any double is hardly "will-nilly." It's a good way to lose your psyker very quickly, and possibly without ever putting a Daemon on the table.
That Perils table ain't so perilous - you stand a pretty good chance of taking a single wound, at most. Hell, for Brotherhoods of Psykers, that's one low-cost dude of ten or so in exchange for either a full squad of Daemons, a Herald, or even a big, honkin' Greater Daemon. That doesn't even take into account the 1/6th chance that your psyker becomes a tiny battlefield god for a turn. That's a great return on points, and I'd be shocked if 7th Ed doesn't see an unprecedented number of Guardsmen, Space Maureens and Inquisitors doing the daemonic tango. Eldar, too. Because, you know. Narrative forging.

Nefarius Drapesh

05-26-2014, 10:47 AM

erm... i thought from the daemon codex only demonprinces can take malefic daemonology.
at least the heralds and greater daemons specifically state what psy diszipline they can use and none has daemonology.
nurgle: pestilence and biomantie
slaanesh: excess and telepathy
tzeentch: change and divination
khorne: everybody loves the non-complicated handsome guy :D

or am i missreading something?

playing daemons myself ...yeah... could be cool and stuff...
but i tested a game with one daemonprince with malefic and he alone already created over 500pts of additional models during the game.

LTKlaudius

05-26-2014, 11:14 AM

any psyker can take demonology. if they have warp charge, they can take it.
any caster can cast maelific spells except for grey knights,
So everyone is gonna summon daemons lol

interrogator_chaplain

05-26-2014, 11:16 AM

@LTKlaudius Yes, but if any other race takes Daemonology, they peril instantly on ANY doubles, regardless of whether it passed or failed.

Honestly, all I'm seeing here is the Psychic phase is broken if you're playing against Daemons.

Nefarius Drapesh

05-26-2014, 11:24 AM

Erik Setzer

05-26-2014, 11:24 AM

Not really, the codex certainly wasnt the problem in 6th edition (baring grimoire) its the changes brought on directly by 6th ed (the entire maelific tree, invisibillity, deny the witch changes etc) that are causing problems.

Deny the Witch change is NOT a problem. If they'd had Malefic in 6th edition, you wouldn't even be able to try to stop it. Or Invisibility. Or any other power not being used directly against one of your units. Now you can.

giblingoblin

05-26-2014, 11:26 AM

Actually the last page of the psychic phase section states that all factions, except tyranids, unless other wise stated, have access to the daemonology disciplines, however it says that grey knights can only choose powers from the Sanctic half and daemons can only choose powers from the Malefic half but the trade off being unlike other armies they do not suffer perils of the warp on any doubles but only on double 6's when manifesting a power from the daemonology discipline.

Erik Setzer

05-26-2014, 11:30 AM

Causing a perils on any double is hardly "will-nilly." It's a good way to lose your psyker very quickly, and possibly without ever putting a Daemon on the table. I don't foresee a lot of non-Daemons or CSM players using Daemonology outside of 100% narrative play.

Even in White Dwarf, they suggested sacrificing a cheap non-Daemon psyker to summon in a Lord of Change or other psychic Greater Daemon, swapping out your psyker for a more powerful model that can then go about the rest of the game casting Malefic powers without anywhere near as much risk of Perils. They straight up told you how to break that restriction in their own magazine before the book's release.

Of course, they *want* you to break the restriction that "balances" it, because they want you to buy a bunch of Daemon models.

- - - Updated - - -

there are psykers who can do it, but they are few and far between

If I can find the points in my lists I plan on running a 4 W IWND sorcerer in my chaos list as a daemonologist. the 4 wounds and the chance at a regen combined with Ld 10 mean that the chances of him actually dieing are pretty slim

Similar thought, if you want to be a jerk: Eldar Farseers not only have the Ghost Helm to try to knock off a wound from a Perils, you'll also likely get the power to get a wound back on a target unit with at least one of your Warlocks, so you can go ahead and Perils and either use dice to get rid of it directly, or just gain the wound back from another power later.

Summoning Daemons with Eldar is a jerk move, but so is doing it with the Dark Angels character who should most recognize how close they all are to losing their souls.

D6Damager

05-26-2014, 11:42 AM

There is no guarantee that we will ever see an errata or FAQ for this. Psychic powers are not the only broken thing in this edition. Wait until the battle report with a battle forged marine drop pod army places 18 uncontestable scoring units on objectives that they just drew from the maelstrom deck....

interrogator_chaplain

05-26-2014, 12:42 PM

There's also one good way of dealing with Daemons spamming summoning.
http://totalwargamer.co.uk/images/detailed/4/imperial-guard-shadowsword-1.jpg

Domine Nox

05-26-2014, 12:44 PM

where can i find the information that really any caster can cast malefic spells?
the little reference card beyond my psycards state that daemons have access to malefic, yes, but nowhere does it state that ALL daemons have access to malefic. but my daemon codex shows clear restrictions about which daemon can take what psychic disziplines.
i'm just interested in some page number...

Pg 28 "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate power from the Daemonolgoy discipline.

So all daemons get access to that discipline. ALL Horrors, Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and the psykers from other armies can take it too.

Alan Braggins

05-26-2014, 01:14 PM

Pg 28 "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate power from the Daemonolgoy discipline.

So all daemons get access to that discipline. ALL Horrors, Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and the psykers from other armies can take it too.

You could argue that where the codex says which disciplines a daemon unit uses, that's "otherwise stated". But I think that leaves the Blue Scribes as the only daemon who could use Daemonology, which pretty clearly isn't what was meant - White Dwarf has already been quoted as saying a Lord of Change does have access.

CaptainWhizz

05-26-2014, 01:30 PM

Rules from a Codex trump rules from the main book, right? So, until GW release a document updating the situation, any army list entry that specifies which disciplines a psyker can choose their powers from would mean that particular psyker cannot take Daemonology powers, unless Daemonolgy is one of those listed.

"Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

Example:
"A Great Unclean One generates his powers from the Biomancy and Plague disciplines." That's pretty specific, it states which disciplines the GUO can chose from, and those don't include Daemonology, so it could easily be argued that it has been "otherwise stated".

However, I don't think that's what GW intended, especially as it contradicts the rest of the text in the rules about Malefic powers. Also, would that interpretation mean that nobody had acces to Daemonology? Do any psykers have unrestricted access to powers?

mieresin

05-26-2014, 01:39 PM

In the video they use lots of proxis, don't let your oponent do that (rules say if you don't have the model you can't put it in the table) .
Not everybody owns 200 demons.

Mr Mystery

05-26-2014, 01:49 PM

Rulebook shows everyone gets them, except Tryanids. Grey Knights and Daemons are restricted to the specific disciplines.

And that's it.

And as I pointed out, all the time they're *****ing their casting dice summoning, is time those Tzeentchian Daemons are doing precious little else. Get tore in. They're not at all difficult to kill! Sure, they could go casting Invisibility and other nasties, but then that's dice not going to summoning anything.....

- - - Updated - - -

There's also the issue of VPs.

Summoned units give VPs like any other unit. If you're allowing yourself to be Possessed by a big nasty, I get the VPs for the dude being Possessed. Risk here is that in order for summoning, you really need to focus your list and indeed efforts on it. And as Tzeentch Daemons need their psychic powers to do actual damage, there's a fine line to tread to not only Summon stuff, but do enough damage to my army to win.

Played wrong, and you're just giving me a source of easily nabbed VPs. 10 Horrors are pretty simple to kill off, and as you can't summon into terrain (Summoning counts as a deepstrike), you may find yourself having to Summon into the open, where you can bet your sweet bippy I'll be pouring on the firepower to bag those VPs.

I think I need to find me a Daemon player, and challenge them to a 2,000 point game against my Necrons, and see what happens.

Hapes

05-26-2014, 02:47 PM

Rules from the codex trump book? Sweet my knight titan still has a normal D strength chain sword then. I'll play it as no saves against anything then. Sound legit as ya know they just put rules our changing that but....I guess codex trumps book so gg.......

Adam Huenecke

05-26-2014, 03:20 PM

Too bad 40k was never made to be balanced or competitive, else I might have more pity for you.

I agree completely. This rule set is as bad as the people you play with- if you play with a bunch of rules-exploiting jerkbags (or if you are one yourself), then this will be a miserably experience for you.

If you have a problem with people playing the game like exploitative jerks, then you have a people problem- not a rules problem.

chicop76

05-26-2014, 03:34 PM

Lord Asterion

05-26-2014, 03:42 PM

Let's see. I can summon daemons with psychic powers with one of the rare armies that can field a ton of mastery level 3 psykers, more than anyone else.

Hmmm on top of.

1. Poloygrypgh
2. Riftbringer ability
3. Warp storm table

When I have received 1 and 2 before it has been game changers. Now you adding almost guarenteed troops. You can possibly have over 100 free troops now with everything combined.

There is no way people are likely to get 100 "free troops" in a game, and its far from guaranteed, play at 1000-1500 points, you will see its not nearly as easy as they're making it out to be for the sake of complaining online about GW.

eversor21

05-26-2014, 04:10 PM

not sure about that, having an extensive collection of daemons from collecting them over the past decade or so i have more then enough to cover 10 units of 10 lesser daemons.

now I've only played 3 games of 7th while trying to abuse the daemons psychic phase and so far at about 1500-1750 but in all of those games i easily surpassed that number by turn 4. 20-40 models a turn is not a difficult thing to do when your running with over 36 warp charge. I think the problem is that the malefic tree in general takes any strategy out of the conceptualization of an army and flat out allows someone to dominate a game to easily.

chicop76

05-26-2014, 04:32 PM

There is no way people are likely to get 100 "free troops" in a game, and its far from guaranteed, play at 1000-1500 points, you will see its not nearly as easy as they're making it out to be for the sake of complaining online about GW.

The psychic powers make it almost guarenteed, while the other 3 are not.

That being said riftbringer on a Bloodthirster can actually pull in an extra 30-40 troops rather easily, as long as he survives being shot at, although having +2 invulnerable saves really help to pull that off. The problem is you have like a 16% chance of getting this power, unless you running 3 princes as well which raises the possibility of getting the power. Also you have to own in combat reliably which means it is only good on the Thirster or Lord of Change with perfect timing, or any psychic power that gives more attacks and 're rolls.

I can say when I do get riftbringer and get into combat and generate more troops the game is pretty much over. At worst I generated around 20 plus with 30 being the average. It helps that it can work twice a turn.

Polyglyph i snt that threatening since it works 50% of the time and can make about 3 guys on average. In a typical game you'll be lucky if you can get 10 extra guys.

On the warp storm table even with Fateweaver you have a 7-8% chance of summing more daemons. If you roll box cars a lot more power to you. I played about 15+ games with daemons and never got this to go off. One day it might.

Now throwing in the possibility of summing 50 extra daemons with the above possibilities. Not saying it's likely. Just saying at most I would say I chunked out 45 daemons when we just ended the game in 6th.

Now throw in a power that can possibly put an extra 50 daemons on the table in 5 turns can easily get you up to 100 extra models.

Will you always get 100 models. No. Is it possible. Yes. Can you dump free points on the table. Yes.

Also what is up with a psychic power to improve invulnerable saves. Wasn't the grimore, +4 invulnerable psychic power, and warpstorm table enough. I typically can pull off 2 plus invulnerable saves every game. I can say on average I can get it twice, and that's not including the +4 psychic power. Now instead of one unit with a +2 invulnerable I can now have 2, namely the true names holder or Fateweaver.

Hapes

05-26-2014, 05:27 PM

There is no way people are likely to get 100 "free troops" in a game, and its far from guaranteed, play at 1000-1500 points, you will see its not nearly as easy as they're making it out to be for the sake of complaining online about GW.

Except it is completely true..... In an 1850 game I played against someone with half the list in the vide here..... He summoned 1000 points of free models by turn 2. That wasn't even a list made to be absued as much as the one in the video.
If you use malefic you will summon free models. It's incredibly easy to do and it's 10 models PER summon.
This will and has already broken 40k.

Caitsidhe

05-26-2014, 05:42 PM

There is no way people are likely to get 100 "free troops" in a game, and its far from guaranteed, play at 1000-1500 points, you will see its not nearly as easy as they're making it out to be for the sake of complaining online about GW.

It is exactly as easy as people have made it out to be. The math and probabilities are painfully easy to calculate. The fact that you refuse to accept it has no bearing on the veracity.

DarkLink

05-26-2014, 06:09 PM

You can write an 1850 daemon list that generates on average about 38 warp charges. You can cast 5 Summoning powers a turn, 8 dice each, for an 86% chance of success and a 19% chance of Perils per power. So you're successfully summoning 40-50 troops a turn on average (you have about a 47% chance of summoning 50 dudes per turn, a 65% chance of summoning 40, a 40% chance of summoning 60), and taking a single wound from Perils per turn. Since Perils is scattered across your psykers, and you are gaining even more Warp Charges as the game goes, you can reliably keep pumping out 40 troops a turn for the entire game. If a Herald dies, or you lose the Grimnoire or something, no big deal, you just summon a new Herald instead of a unit. Once you've summoned a sufficient number of bodies, you can start dedicated some of those psychic powers and troops to killing stuff. It's very reliable, you have so many casting dice it's effectively impossible to reasonably block it with deny dice, for every time you only successfully summon 30 guys you have a time where you summon 60, and it easily doubles the length of the game.

So, yes, daemonology is completely broken.

- - - Updated - - -

So not only on average do you get nearly 100 guys by turn 2, but if you want to keep going on that route you'll have about 230 Horrors summoned by T5.

ElectricPaladin

05-26-2014, 06:27 PM

I got around to rereading the psychic rules, and I've got to disagree with such august personages as Dark Link. I really don't think that Rules As Written gives Daemon psykers access to Daemonology. As written, any psyker can take Daemonology unless the codex states otherwise. The Daemon codex clearly states which powers each psyker can chose from. The codex does, obviously, state otherwise.

Now, if you want to get into a Rules as Intended argument, it's obvious that some Daemons will get access to Daemonology. However, it isn't clear which. While you can argue that a Dark Angels librarian will definitely get access Daemonology because he first is the only psyker in his book, and second already has access to all the powers available to Codex: Dark Angels (which according to the handy reference card included with the discipline deck clearly includes Daemonology).

However, Codex: Daemons of Chaos is not so straightforward. Said handy reference card states that Daemons have access to every discipline except Santic Daemonology and Force. This is, however, obviously a summary. Lords of change and heralds of Tzeentch can only take Divination (and Change). Pink horrors can only take Change. Kairos Fateweaver can choose powers from Pyromancy, Divination, Telepathy, and Biomancy. The Changeling can only take powers from Change. Great unclean ones and heralds of Nurgle can only take powers from Biomancy and Plague. Ku'gath can only know powers from Plague. Keepers of secrets and heralds of Slaanesh can only take powers from Telepthy and Excess. Daemon princes, the most variable, can choose powers from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis, as well as the three god-based disciplines.

What does this show us?

The handy reference card refers to any discipline that is present anywhere in the codex, even if only a single special character (ie. Kairos Fateweaver and Pyromancy) can actually take it. If there were a single Daemon special character with a Force weapon, Daemons would technically have access to Force. And it would say so on the handy - but deceptive - reference card.

As I wrote, it's obvious that some Daemons are going to get Daemonology. It's also obvious, however, that Codex: Daemons of Chaos is not terribly straightforward when it comes to who gets which power. The handy reference card is only a summary, not a binding rule. The codex clearly states which disciplines each unit can draw from, and this is not superseded by the basic rule book... because the basic rule book says so. The argument someone raised above, about a Knight's D-weapon working according to the old rules, is not valid, because in this case the basic rule book specifically says to refer to the codex, rather than re-defining a game term and expecting us to have the brains to figure out for ourselves that the new definition trumps the old one.

In other words - the rulebook specifically tells you that you can't take Daemonology on any Daemon as currently written. As far as the handy rule card... by that logic, I can take Divination and Pyromancy on my Daemon prince. This is obviously false.

I also think it's very telling that how this rule goes will significantly change the way Daemonology plays on the table. What if only greater daemons have access to Daemonology? What if it's only Daemon princes? What if it's only heralds? What if it's some combination - greater Daemons and heralds, but not Daemon princes? Heralds and Daemon princes, but not greater Daemons? What if it's all three, but not pink horrors?

Given that a unit can only attempt to manifest a given power once per phase, this will significantly alter the way the power is used.

It's also worth noting that a unit can only attempt to manifest a power once per phase. Not a psyker. Therefore, if both pink horrors and heralds get Daemonology, but you have your herald join the pink horrors, you are down to one use of each power known by both. Food for thought.

Overall, as I've written from the beginning, the situation might be as bad as you fear... or it might not. However, I think I've clearly shown that Codex: Daemons of Chaos needs to be all FAQed up before we know for sure.

eversor21

05-26-2014, 07:52 PM

I would disagree electric, right now the rulebook says unless stated they can not take malefic all psykers can roll on the table. if we go by what your saying that codex trumps a more recent codex we could then argue that imperial knights still have amazingly powerful close combat weapons since the rules for their D weapons are clearly printed in their codex.

the fact is as much as people don't like the thought of it, right now all models that are psykers and have daemon rules can roll on the malefic table and will only perils on double 6's.

Caitsidhe

05-26-2014, 07:59 PM

Well... of course a lot will hinge on the Faqs. That goes without saying. I'm actually kind of annoyed the Faqs didn't hit the same time the new book did.

ElectricPaladin

05-26-2014, 08:10 PM

Well... of course a lot will hinge on the Faqs. That goes without saying. I'm actually kind of annoyed the Faqs didn't hit the same time the new book did.

I was less annoyed before this conversation turned into a cluster****. Now I'm annoyed.

Magos Bellum

05-26-2014, 08:19 PM

Caitsidhe

05-26-2014, 08:21 PM

Conspiracy theory time!

Who gets daemonology was left purposefully vague and the faqs delayed to force the community to playtest it in the most extreme ways, so that it can be balanced (probably poorly, knowing GW) with the faqs.

Honestly, this probably isn't the case, and this situation is just incompetence instead of a cunning ploy on the part of the design team for actual playtesting to get done, but I suppose we can hope...

That would be giving Games Workshop too much credit. They already rushed this thing through production (clearly barely tested if at all) and that left no time whatsoever to even think about (let alone do) the Faqs.

chicop76

05-26-2014, 08:55 PM

Still getting more about 7th edition, but it seems you can run as many units.as you like. If so for 1k points you can run 10.master level 3 psykers rather easily. If said psykers can summon daemons ;'(.

I have to actually.read.the 7th edition codex.to.even have a real opinion about who.can do what. However I would say Daemons probably will get Malefic powers since.they are on the chart to get them. Further more.I.would.say Tzeentch.at least probably will.have access to them. Which people mostly run Tzeentch anyway.

Talking about Tzeentch Fatewaver at mastery 4 will probably be better.

Also.is it true chariots are relentless now. If so I can actually use some models :').

Learn2Eel

05-26-2014, 09:07 PM

The reason magic isn't entirely broken in Warhammer Fantasy is because Games Workshop sensibly limited each player to a maximum of 12 power/dispel dice per magic phase. This means you can almost never cast all the spells you want outside of certain magic item boosts that (High Elves aside) are almost entirely gone in 8th Edition army books. It stops someone from spamming mages where possible (the percentage restrictions also help here) to just win the game purely through magic. Why this same logic wasn't applied to 40K and the Psychic Phase is beyond me, really.

If the GW rules designers have any brains they will issue an Errata with a 12 dice limit on the Warp Charge pool. Yes, it will hurt psyker heavy armies like Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons but by god it will stop (most of) the abuse dead in its tracks.

DarkLink

05-27-2014, 12:21 AM

Daemonology will still be broken, even "only" a free 50-70 models is a massive advantage, but yes, a cap of some sort would be an improvement.

ElectricPaladin

05-27-2014, 12:30 AM

Daemonology will still be broken, even "only" a free 50-70 models is a massive advantage, but yes, a cap of some sort would be an improvement.

Consider that a cap on Daemonology would do much the same as the general cap on Warp Charge dice you proposed above, which would make them similar to Fantasy's magic dice... and the Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts are not broken. Powerful, but not broken.

White Tiger88

05-27-2014, 01:04 AM

Daemonology will still be broken, even "only" a free 50-70 models is a massive advantage, but yes, a cap of some sort would be an improvement.

Just 50-70? Ya no problem! (Note to self pack more templates..............)

Charon

05-27-2014, 01:21 AM

Learn2Eel

05-27-2014, 02:08 AM

Consider that a cap on Daemonology would do much the same as the general cap on Warp Charge dice you proposed above, which would make them similar to Fantasy's magic dice... and the Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts are not broken. Powerful, but not broken.

The comparison to Undead armies in Fantasy doesn't really fit, just an FYI.

Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts have lots of magic boosting potential because they actively rely on magic to win games, unlike any other army. Undead armies simply cannot win a game unless they have magic dominance or at least the potential to get all their spells off. This is because actual Undead units are weak to make up for being able to raise more of them and give them big buffs. Daemons don't really work that way, their basic Troops might seem like fodder but they are far more "elite" than Undead forces.

I see what you mean but I think the better example would have been Dark Elves. With Warlocks and Lord/Hero level wizards they have insane amounts of spells to use but are constrained by the magic dice pool.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm personally going to wait for the Codex FAQs before I really make any big statements though, I'm worried about Malefic Daemonology being over-powered and psychic dominance lists perhaps breaking the game but I will wait before I start pointing fingers :)

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 02:33 AM

Daemonology will still be broken, even "only" a free 50-70 models is a massive advantage, but yes, a cap of some sort would be an improvement.

Even then, I dunno.

To get that many you need to go all out, from list design to casting. It's not as if you can do the summoning whilst still getting some dakka in during the Shooting phase. About the only thing such an army does well is summon. Can't fight for toffee certainly.

I know I keep going on about this, but I am genuinely concerned people aren't noticing this rather worrying weakness in the whole 'infinite summoning' plan.

BTW. I'll be up Nottingham way in July (random holiday). If anyone has a Daemon army, and wants to try this out on a willing stooge/guinea pig/accomplice/Igor, let me know. Really want to see how it turns out IRL!

Wolfshade

05-27-2014, 02:40 AM

You would also need to buy and paint your several hundred deamons, otherwise I imagine the power would fail.

Charon

05-27-2014, 02:43 AM

It's not as if you can do the summoning whilst still getting some dakka in during the Shooting phase.

Daemons are not known for "dakka during the shooting phase". They COULD if they took any dakka psi power, but even before 7th they did not do that (except horros because they had no choice) and rather went for force multipliers letting flying monstrous creatures do their thing.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 02:46 AM

Just worked it out.....180 Horrors - 1,620 points.

That's an awful lot of points for 18 Psychic Dice.....An awful lot. Especially as for your plan to work, they all need to be summoning up more Daemons. Is it really worth it? I don't believe so.

- - - Updated - - -

But Charon.....how else are you going to out VP me? All those Daemons you're summoning are fairly easy to put down. Greater Daemons? I can take them. After all, this isn't Warhammer but 40k. In 40k, T6/7 and a mediocre Inv save doesn't do a great deal for you.

Vector Strike isn't a massively superb way of taking out an entire army either. The odd Tank? Yes, absolutely. Units of troops? I'm usually left thinking 'Oh dear. Bob got swooped. FOR BOB LADS!'

And all the while I'm focussing the bulk of my firepower onto those squishy, squishy Horrors.....

Sorry folks, this just isn't the big threat to me. Too much focus needed to pull it off, leaving you with your pants down in pretty much every other phase.

Charon

05-27-2014, 02:48 AM

Wrong assumption. Its not 180 Horrors for the dice. Its the things that is already pretty powerful even much psi.
Flying Princes, Flying GD, Heralds. Horrors to fill and fuel, not to cast.
Around 25 dice for 100 points less.

You also should not assume that everyone plays IG and have a stupid amount of firepower behind their gamebreaking WAAC gunline ;)

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 03:01 AM

I'm talking about my Necrons.

Plus, Horrors are easier to beat up than a wheelchair bound five year old (not that I'd actually know, that's just a silly line).

Heralds? Easy to drop. They need to go into a unit ideally, and I'll just pound that unit into the dirt. Flying GD? It's probably more points efficient to take the oodles of Heralds and then 'upgrade' to GD with spells and that.

There's still so much that can if not go wrong, then at least not go right. It's got the potential to be really nasty for your opponent. But even on average casting (listed as using 7 dice by someone, though you could risk it with 5)..... You're really pushing it to get the desired affect.

Man....I need to track me down a Daemon player!

Charon

05-27-2014, 04:16 AM

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 04:24 AM

@Mr. Mystery: Four out of the six Malefic powers summons Daemons, providing a wide variety of what can be summoned. It runs the gamut from basic units like Bloodletters/Horrors/Plague Bearers/Daemonettes to Greater Daemons (with everything in between). I don't get why you are so focused on Horrors either. Chaos Daemons are more than capable of spamming the big Psykers too. The power that spawns Heralds is particularly potent (and easy to cast).

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 04:48 AM

chicop76

05-27-2014, 05:03 AM

The comparison to Undead armies in Fantasy doesn't really fit, just an FYI.

Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts have lots of magic boosting potential because they actively rely on magic to win games, unlike any other army. Undead armies simply cannot win a game unless they have magic dominance or at least the potential to get all their spells off. This is because actual Undead units are weak to make up for being able to raise more of them and give them big buffs. Daemons don't really work that way, their basic Troops might seem like fodder but they are far more "elite" than Undead forces.

I see what you mean but I think the better example would have been Dark Elves. With Warlocks and Lord/Hero level wizards they have insane amounts of spells to use but are constrained by the magic dice pool.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm personally going to wait for the Codex FAQs before I really make any big statements though, I'm worried about Malefic Daemonology being over-powered and psychic dominance lists perhaps breaking the game but I will wait before I start pointing fingers :)

Not a fantasy player, but daemons regular troops are typically better than most troops in the game. The only reason they aren't the best troop options is they lack weapon options and close combat i snt as powerful. For example if we would hark back to 3rd or 4th edition it would be save to say daemons would probably dominate with daemonettes and letters, especially with old rending and power weapons. Not to mention not having to deep strike like before.

However lack of fire power hurts them, unless you're Tzeentch heavy. Thinking about Tzeentch I just realized horrors shooting is much better since you can either go around casting like divination and the other player trying to block it leaving the shooting attacks unblocked. Even more so Daemons will now have a dakka phase which no army will have. Since psychic phase is before shooting phase, daemons can now shoot before the other side does. No other army out there have the psychic shooting potential of daemons.

For example mono Tzeentch can blast away Tau every time before Tau can shoot no matter who goes first, or if the other side have psychic powers, it's not devoted to shooting like Tzeentch. Thinking about it more I'll probably pick more psychic Tzeentch powers now. That beam power at strength 10 is really nice if you roll well. I surprise people with flickering fire and the beam. I think relying on a 2+ invulnerable now i snt necessary. I think you might see more horrors on the table.

Oh and beating horrors up like old woman really. What daemon player you be playing. Unless you are denying cover or in combat with them they aren't that easy to kill in cover, especially with a 3 plus cover save 're rolling ones. Although tau blow them away and they are easily picked up in battle. That being said that is why I have daemonettes to prevent my horrors from seeing combat.

Thinking about it more why even bother to really deep strike them.

Scratch what I said earlier if you can only shoot during your turn of the psychic phase. Still it Changes things.

daboarder

05-27-2014, 05:05 AM

Summon up Daemon Beasts - Great. Being a deepstrike, they'll need to steer clear of cover. And I can still shoot them up nicely.

Heralds? Single 2 wound model is again, quite easy to slot. And for every summoned unit that I snuff out, I get VPs.

I really do feel this is all 'storm in a teacup'. It requires a *lot* of luck on behalf of the Daemon player, and a shocking level of complicity/incompetence on behalf of their opponent not getting stuck in to whittle down the numbers and thus available casting dice straight off the bat.

Few things

1) I dont know why beasts are going to care about deepstriking in terrain

2) Daemon units probably wont be scattering (Icons are a thing, and even free on summoned units)

3) Darklink has shown links to the crunched numbers, its a statistical likelihood that the numbers people are talking about will be summoned over the course of the game, your belief in luck will not change this.

chicop76

05-27-2014, 05:07 AM

Summon up Daemon Beasts - Great. Being a deepstrike, they'll need to steer clear of cover. And I can still shoot them up nicely.

Heralds? Single 2 wound model is again, quite easy to slot. And for every summoned unit that I snuff out, I get VPs.

I really do feel this is all 'storm in a teacup'. It requires a *lot* of luck on behalf of the Daemon player, and a shocking level of complicity/incompetence on behalf of their opponent not getting stuck in to whittle down the numbers and thus available casting dice straight off the bat.

If I remember you also get 30 points of upgrades with the summons. Meaning they may be more the 2 wound models and have the potential to being 3-4 if I remember correctly. Also depending on the Herald like a nurgle Herald with auto shrouding I wouldn't say they are easily killed.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 05:14 AM

Few things

1) I dont know why beasts are going to care about deepstriking in terrain

2) Daemon units probably wont be scattering (Icons are a thing, and even free on summoned units)

3) Darklink has shown links to the crunched numbers, its a statistical likelihood that the numbers people are talking about will be summoned over the course of the game, your belief in luck will not change this.

In order for it to work, you need the averages on your side. Not to mention, as nobody seems to be addressing, an opponent not doing their best to jump and slot your best-bet casters from the outset.

As well covered, my Necrons can't really do owt about your actual summoning, unless I get really jammy with the 6's (and sometimes I do, which is why I love my Tesla). But, I do have horrific amounts of firepower at my disposal to put a literal dent in that plan. More so if I get the first turn, as I can get cracking with the knacking before you've had a chance to summon anything. Got a unit of 5 Tomb Blades with the Particle weapons. That's a lot of S6 blasts. Necron Warriors are also competent enough lesser Daemon slayers.

But, as I said, I really, really want to play against a summony-centric army, just to see what truth will out.

Charon

05-27-2014, 05:16 AM

Summon up Daemon Beasts - Great. Being a deepstrike, they'll need to steer clear of cover. And I can still shoot them up nicely.

Heralds? Single 2 wound model is again, quite easy to slot. And for every summoned unit that I snuff out, I get VPs.

I really do feel this is all 'storm in a teacup'. It requires a *lot* of luck on behalf of the Daemon player, and a shocking level of complicity/incompetence on behalf of their opponent not getting stuck in to whittle down the numbers and thus available casting dice straight off the bat.

Where comes the impression from that you gain VP for every summoned units? You still only get first blood and by a slim chance you can roll 2 out of 36 missions which give additional VP for killing units.
Also summon is deepstrike is a moot point when you get your icons for free adn another power alows you to pinpoint. You can also run into cover in the shooting phase.

chicop76

05-27-2014, 05:19 AM

Why are you under the assumption that you only can summon horrors?
While these could push your ML further, there is no need to do that if you get the impression other daemons would work better.
These cosy runis with the mission marker could look like a sweet spot for your Plaguebearers, while this LoS Blocker may be a fitting place for a buch of Daemonettes to do their... daemonic girly stuff...

Nust wanted to add that I fought necrons with daemons and I found that lots of slaanesh rending love puts down all those want to be armour 13 vehicles and eat the necrons inside. I do thank invisibility and grimore of true names, plus endurance to shrugging off that necron fire power that can't really deny cover saves, surprised no one ever bother to take the deny cover options for necrons. Also since you are dealing with flying daemons that can shoot/ vector strike your low armour flyers I can really say Daemons can viably beat necrons now. Throw in more summoned daemons than it's harder for them to win.

My only problem army with daemons so far is Tau. The main reason is not really the dakka, but the dakka that ignores cover saves as well, and the fact they can blow my deepmstriking units before they hit the table. Also eldar is a problem since their skimmers are a bit harder to kill since they aren't open topped, actually just slightly, flying daemons eat them, just again they have cover save denial though.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 05:20 AM

.....summoning rules.

Summoned Units grant VPs as if they had always been part of the opponents army. Any mission dependant on VPs, and the Daemon player is potentially putting themselves at a disadvantage.

Way I read it, you summon a unit within 12", ala deepstrike? Currently at work, so no access to rulebook.

Charon

05-27-2014, 05:22 AM

.....summoning rules.

Summoned Units grant VPs as if they had always been part of the opponents army. Any mission dependant on VPs, and the Daemon player is potentially putting themselves at a disadvantage.

Yes they grant VP if the mission allows VP for killing stuff. Thats 2 mealstorm mission cards out of 36 and th obvious first blood. Period.
So you have to roll these missions. Its not an auto include.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 05:28 AM

chicop76

05-27-2014, 05:29 AM

Where comes the impression from that you gain VP for every summoned units? You still only get first blood and by a slim chance you can roll 2 out of 36 missions which give additional VP for killing units.
Also summon is no deepstrike.

When you have a ton of daemons with 2/3 plus invulnerable/ cover saves with some of them 're rolling ones on top of spawning more daemons I'm pretty sure necrons overwhelming fire power will be whelmed. I can see you argue Tau and Eldar a bit, but daemons can weather Necron shooting and out melee them as well.

Your concern should be multiple invisibility casting. Basically 2 plus / 3 plus invulnerable up front and 2 plus cover in the rear. Thanks to a spell that can increase invulnerable saves now and the fact you can cast more spells. Don't be surprised you are going against at least a plus 4 invulnerable or cover save army which can easily get 3 plus i nvulnerables all around.

Not to mention 4 plus feel no pain on top of units you really want to keep around.

chicop76

05-27-2014, 05:42 AM

Must have missed that bit, and/or got a bit carried away.

There's still the concern that the unit being summoned can't do owt that turn, and that I will be doing my utmost to smash up your force before the summoning has so much as a chance to get out of hand.

Like I keep saying, it is a strategy that could work, but it's not all that and a bag of potato chips. The amount of time it would take to summon up a decent amount of stuff to really make it worthwhile, that's time you're doing precious little against the enemy force. Same cannot be said of them.

It seems to mostly rely on a really, really stupid opponent. Or at least one easily driven into a panic by stuff suddenly appearing.

I would say you should think about that a bit more. Just from my riftbringer experience its really hard to deal with deepmstrike daemons coming out of no where.

The issue is you have a flying daemon or two in your face with a few really hard to kill daemonettes squads with more daemons on the way. What makes it good it's a sizeable unit that you can choose what it is.

Marines sitting on an objective. Summon some bloodletters and give them invisibility or +4 feel no pain. Sure they sit there, but if you do nothing to the unit next turn they become a threat. Also you can cut off units mobility like waveserpents for example by blocking off escape routes. The choice you have really is do you kill the units in your face or kill the free distractors that more than likely can tear through your army.

You can summon plague bearers to sit on an objective, summon in daemonettes to deal with vehicles, summon in horrors to provide more shooting support.

It's not like summoning 10 guardsmen with lasguns. It's like summoning wytches with rending or power weapons with invulnerable saves, that basically get all the added stuff free.

Charon

05-27-2014, 05:46 AM

Must have missed that bit, and/or got a bit carried away.

There's still the concern that the unit being summoned can't do owt that turn, and that I will be doing my utmost to smash up your force before the summoning has so much as a chance to get out of hand.

Like I keep saying, it is a strategy that could work, but it's not all that and a bag of potato chips. The amount of time it would take to summon up a decent amount of stuff to really make it worthwhile, that's time you're doing precious little against the enemy force. Same cannot be said of them.

It seems to mostly rely on a really, really stupid opponent. Or at least one easily driven into a panic by stuff suddenly appearing.

Which really doesnt matter. If you dont have the firepower to kill 4 full units a turn PLUS parts of the actual army you are going to drown sooner or later as they add up more and more.
Even if you can kill 39 a turn thats basically his entire previous army untouched and he still managed to get one more model. And be prepared to lose most of your firepower at turn 3 when most of them can enter melee.

40 Daemons (even if you pick T3 Daemons and leave them in the open) will eat around 120 BF4 S4 shots a turn. Thats for example 780 points of necron warriors in rapid fire range that are only dedicated to kill the summoned units.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 05:50 AM

Yet those units can only run on the turn they are summoned.

And in order to make the whole summoning strategy work, you need to focus on it to the exclusion of all else. That means no Invisibility being cast, or arguably even being taken. People are approaching this as if the Daemon player will have it their own way, 100% of the time. And we all know that's exceedingly unlikely to happen.

I may be wrong, but then that's why I want to give such an opponent a crack.

Charon

05-27-2014, 06:08 AM

And in order to make the whole summoning strategy work, you need to focus on it to the exclusion of all else. That means no Invisibility being cast, or arguably even being taken. People are approaching this as if the Daemon player will have it their own way, 100% of the time. And we all know that's exceedingly unlikely to happen.

You dont "exclude everything else". Why should you?
You will average at 28 dice. 7 guaranteed summons (as in: they are availabe) 8 random malefic powers, 2 Tzzentch powers and 9 powers from whichever school you want to choose.
Yes, you exclude your "dakka" but you excluded that from start as you play Daemons and not Tau. You did not exclude melee (because this is inherent no matter what you do).

Depending on how the turns go you can choose to summon more or less. If you can kill just 20 Deamons from 40 there is no need to summon 40 again and you are free to apply your force multipliers in addition to a few more daemons.
Also dont forget that riftbringer, portal and warpstorm is still a thing.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 06:14 AM

Average 28 dice. 7 dice are statistically favourable to pull off a 3WC power. Can be done with 5, but a wee bit riskier.

What's the points cost of generating those 28 dice?

Charon

05-27-2014, 06:18 AM

25+D6 dice is around 1500

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 06:20 AM

And that's a mix of Greater Daemons (one assumes Lords of Change, on account you cannot whack a Flying Caster!), Flying Daemon Princes, and Horrors for general generation duties?

Charon

05-27-2014, 06:23 AM

Aye

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 06:26 AM

I'm still not convinced of it's efficiency overall.

28 dice sounds like a lot, but going on 'recommended' dice counts? That's 4 attempts at summoning with decent reliability, or 5/6 at somewhat chancier odds.

Perhaps someone better with numbers than I could work out the optimal use of those available dice, for arguments sake?

Charon

05-27-2014, 06:30 AM

Also take into account that there are armies which cant put out any crazy amout of shooting like IG, Crons or Tau.

daboarder

05-27-2014, 06:34 AM

thats 30-40 extra dudes a turn at 1500 pts

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 06:36 AM

I think, overall, it's MEQ's who face the biggest threat....

Serious shooty armies can whack the Daemons hard enough early enough to win through attrition.

Horde armies like Orks and certain Tyranid builds? Well they'll just do what they do best - Get tore in with the choppystabby, and make a pretty mess, quite possibly before the Daemons have a chance to outnumber them.

Eldar and Dark Eldar - Not 100% on these. Certainly, Eldar can have a crack at nullifying the summonses, and Dark Eldar arguably have the speed to start nipping things in the bud from an early stage, again preventing that criticial mass.

MEQs? Arguably lack the numbers to really dent things quickly enough, especially if they go second and have to start clearing out the summoned units before getting to the meat and bones of those responsible for the summoning.

daboarder

05-27-2014, 06:41 AM

Compare this to tervigon spawning, a tervigon spanws 3D6 and cant only do it once or twice statistically. And yet I know how rough tervigon spawning can be as I've played with it, and its got nothing on daemons

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 06:52 AM

Ah, but then the rest of the Nid army is squiggling around somewhere, doing what they do best. This version of eternally spawning? It's not doing much else, at least in the early game. That gives an opponent a certain breathing room.

daboarder

05-27-2014, 06:55 AM

your kidding right? you think psychic powers are the ONLY thing Flying monstrous creatures and greater daemons do? Or daemonettes and bloodletters, khorne dogs and screamers

None of those units rely on casting psychic powers to hurt you, and some of them get to pummel your face AND cast

an 1850 lists should be able to run both an invisible screamer star and enough WC to summon 30-40 dudes a turn. I mean its running fateweaver and a bunch of heralds and horrors ANYWAY

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 07:08 AM

The odd vector strike isn't going to win you the game though.

And those Daemonettes etc? Mostly from summoning I'd expect? Because if so, they're coming on piecemeal, and aren't guaranteed at all.

30-40 Daemons a turn? Easy to slot. Very, very easy to slot.

Like I keep saying - It can work. Of course it can. But it's not the immovable object you all seem to think.

Lord Asterion

05-27-2014, 07:19 AM

How many games with this have you played daboarder? or DarkLink?

Charon

05-27-2014, 07:20 AM

30-40 Daemons a turn? Easy to slot. Very, very easy to slot.

Again. It takes on average 120 shots with BF4 and S4 to kill them all. When they are in the open and T3.
Around 180 shots if you summon Plaguebearers in the open. That is NOT easy.

Eldar and Dark Eldar - Not 100% on these. Certainly, Eldar can have a crack at nullifying the summonses, and Dark Eldar arguably have the speed to start nipping things in the bud from an early stage, again preventing that criticial mass.

No chance. Dark Eldar lack the firepower to get rid of these masses (as you will muster around 80 Poison shots a turn and a few lances which are quite useless in this case but you need to bring them anyways) and while Eldar can probably deny a summon (you still need 6) the daemon can deny any force multiplyer the eldar would need to cast.
Speed does not matter at all as the flying psykers are faster. And if you try to go faster too, you are down to snapshots.

Lord Asterion

05-27-2014, 07:25 AM

Orks would sweep through them in combat, a ton of 20 boy mobs would massacre summoned daemons, especiially with Daemonic Instability kicking in

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 07:53 AM

Orks would sweep through them in combat, a ton of 20 boy mobs would massacre summoned daemons, especiially with Daemonic Instability kicking in

Interestingly enough we already had a guy post who tried Orks against them. It didn't work out that way. The Orks were not able to beat them.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 07:54 AM

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 07:59 AM

Cobblers quite frankly.

Did he actually try, or just say he did? Masses of Orky Boyz, not able to handle Daemons in HTH? Stretches the imagination a wee bit right there. Though depends if he actually fielded big mobz or not.

We didn't get the details of the game, only that it didn't go well for the Orks. Of course, people are already saying that with this new psychic phase that games are easily going over a six hours. I can only imagine an Ork spam army versus a Daemon Spam army (that keeps on spamming during play) would be a miserable eight hour affair of tedium.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 08:07 AM

Are people rolling dice one by one or something? Or spending half an hour every turn to squabble?

I can wrap up a 4,000 point game in roughly 3 hours. Easy peasy....

DarkLink

05-27-2014, 08:21 AM

How many games with this have you played daboarder? or DarkLink?

I've watched several, and I've done the math to determine what the averages are, and read articles from and talked with a lot of very good players who all came to the exact same conclusions as I did independently of each other.

Defenestratus

05-27-2014, 08:21 AM

The more Mr Mystery posts, the more I actually think that he's playing a game *other* that 40k.

A 2000 pt game of 6th edition at my store would always take between 3 and 4 hours, and that was between two players who knew the rules.

I haven't played a 6.1 edition game yet but I can't imagine its going to be faster.

Talking about "Slotting" 120 daemons a turn is simply nonsense. Can it be done? Sure? But not reliably and even if you do "slot" 120 daemons, what did that get you? You're back to equal points values, until the next turn where the daemon player just summons more.

Also the notion that the daemon player is just going to sit there and twiddle his thumbs while conjuring daemons is laughable. While you're just trying to even the points on either side of the table, he's moving, shooting and assaulting you.

Lord Asterion

05-27-2014, 08:33 AM

I've watched several, and I've done the math to determine what the averages are, and read articles from and talked with a lot of very good players who all came to the exact same conclusions as I did independently of each other.

So, no then, lots of "very good players" who haven't played the game.

Amazing.

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 08:39 AM

Are people rolling dice one by one or something? Or spending half an hour every turn to squabble?

I can wrap up a 4,000 point game in roughly 3 hours. Easy peasy....

Um? Can you send us the rules you play by? Four thousand points in three hours? Clearly you are playing something very different from us poor Yanks. Did the U.K. hold out on us, and the real game is only distributed over there? :) Tournament players, for example, who play had and fast struggle with some armies to finish a 1500pt or 1850pt game in 2-2.5 hours (which is usually what is allotted per round). Large model count armies, such as Orks and Imperial Guard never finish their damn games. Clearly you guys know some great secret, a magical equation, that causes your games to be played in 1/3 to 1/2 the time we normally experience. :D

- - - Updated - - -

So, no then, lots of "very good players" who haven't played the game.

Amazing.

I have been playing. The results equate to the very simple math. Where are you located Lord Asterion? Perhaps we can get a game together today. I play Chaos. I'm sure I can demonstrate it for you. Of course I see that you (like some others) are relatively new to posting here. There is always batch of you guys that pop up during a new release to play psycho-pep squad for Games Workshop and savage anyone deviating from that line. Nonetheless, let's throw dice. Where are you? If it is within a State (on my side of the Pond) we will make it happen just for laughs here online.

Lord Asterion

05-27-2014, 08:45 AM

Um? Can you send us the rules you play by? Four thousand points in three hours? Clearly you are playing something very different from us poor Yanks. Did the U.K. hold out on us, and the real game is only distributed over there? :) Tournament players, for example, who play had and fast struggle with some armies to finish a 1500pt or 1850pt game in 2-2.5 hours (which is usually what is allotted per round). Large model count armies, such as Orks and Imperial Guard never finish their damn games. Clearly you guys know some great secret, a magical equation, that causes your games to be played in 1/3 to 1/2 the time we normally experience. :D

- - - Updated - - -

I have been playing. The results equate to the very simple math. Where are you located Lord Asterion? Perhaps we can get a game together today. I play Chaos. I'm sure I can demonstrate it for you. Of course I see that you (like some others) are relatively new to posting here. There is always batch of you guys that pop up during a new release to play psycho-pep squad for Games Workshop and savage anyone deviating from that line. Nonetheless, let's throw dice. Where are you? If it is within a State (on my side of the Pond) we will make it happen just for laughs here online.

How many games have you played since the friday then? What point values and against which opponenets?

If there is one thing I know in the 25 years I've been playing wargamers, its that the maths isn't the game as what happens in a battle.

Rememeber when 6th launched, all of 2 years ago, and everyone thought Flyers would ruin the game and make it unplayable for a few weeks? Then within a month, people weren't complaining, they just adapted and got on with it.

[removed section - http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse]

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 08:52 AM

Serial question.......anyone know of a decent online gaming service, where we might be able to actually put this to the test? With webcams for dice rolling?

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 08:53 AM

How many games have you played since the friday then? What point values and against which opponenets?

If there is one thing I know in the 25 years I've been playing wargamers, its that the maths isn't the game as what happens in a battle.

Rememeber when 6th launched, all of 2 years ago, and everyone thought Flyers would ruin the game and make it unplayable for a few weeks? Then within a month, people weren't complaining, they just adapted and got on with it. There is always something that convinces people the sky is falling and gives them a reason to act all cool by having a go at GW.

And honestly,I don't play people like you, I play people who want to play fun narrative games. I have too much to do to waste precious hobby time with terrible people.

No weaseling out. You have been attacking people here. Time to pay those checks your mouth has been writing. Even if we aren't close enough to play (I notice you didn't answer my question as to where you are) we live in the modern age. We can via video and pics setup identical boards and exchange turns. We can get some neutral, honorable third party to do the dice. Sure it will be slow and take us a few days, but I think given the number of posts you have made, this is warranted. Are you ready to back it up? I have played six games so far, for the record, and watched five others. The number of games is largely irrelevant in this case because we are talking about a simple math problem. Even so, I have thrown dice. I have had little else to do since I got back from my Memorial Day Weekend early so my wife could work. So are we going to do this "Lord" Asterion? I mean you are advocating games, so let's throw those dice. Put up or shut up.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 08:53 AM

As for the different game question....sometimes I genuinely wonder if there are radically different versions.

Charon

05-27-2014, 08:54 AM

Rememeber when 6th launched, all of 2 years ago, and everyone thought Flyers would ruin the game and make it unplayable for a few weeks? Then within a month, people weren't complaining, they just adapted and got on with it. There is always something that convinces people the sky is falling and gives them a reason to act all cool by having a go at GW.

Let me refresh your mind.
Flyers DID ruin the game for a few weeks. As only a FEW armies had them and NO army had any AA. People did not adapt to fliers, people got new rules ranging from a little bit of AA to a stupid amount of AA.
Some of them where still over the top for a long time (so... for the whole 6th edition) and some armies still have problems with fliers cause they still have to use 5th edition codices.

And honestly,I don't play people like you, I play people who want to play fun narrative games. I have too much to do to waste precious hobby time with terrible people.

Pretty rich coming from one of the most toxic posters here...

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 08:57 AM

Serial question.......anyone know of a decent online gaming service, where we might be able to actually put this to the test? With webcams for dice rolling?

I'll start looking. Testing this version aside, I think setting up a process by which people can play remotely would be very nice. I don't think ti would be that hard to setup matching tables and with honest players get games played. There would be a margin of error on the movement but probably within tolerable limits.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 09:01 AM

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 09:06 AM

Yup. I'm up for giving it a bash with whomever. However, being a spawny get, I'd much rather roll my own dice, on cam (sounds kinky. Isn't).

Plus, although I do have a 6x4 board, my flat isn't big enough to set it up :( Which is why I've agreed to sell it to my chum for £220, plus all my terrain, on account one is pointless without the other!

Though I do kind of wish I'd already posted up my usual Necron list. Might help to show it's not specificall tailored to counter stuff :)

Fair enough. The fact of the matter is that I trust you Mr. Mystery, so rolling your own dice isn't an issue for me. In my neck of the woods, most of our Players don't even watch the dice. Kerstan and I (who have different philosophical points of view) play often enough and more often than not he can just tell me how many hits and wounds he scored (the reverse being true). While we disagree on these points, I don't think that makes you unethical. To the contrary, your commentary and willingness to not be hypocritical when discussing Infiltrate and Dedicated Transports moved you up even more in my estimation.

Once we find a way to do this, we will figure out what to do about the board. It should be a fun game (whether we are playing to play test or just for fun). If your Flat isn't big enough, it would be unfair of me to ask you to just setup on a measured out area of floor and deny you even more space for several days while we work this out. We will see what online options there are first.

Harley

05-27-2014, 09:10 AM

Let me refresh your mind.
Flyers DID ruin the game for a few weeks. As only a FEW armies had them and NO army had any AA. People did not adapt to fliers, people got new rules ranging from a little bit of AA to a stupid amount of AA.
Some of them where still over the top for a long time (so... for the whole 6th edition) and some armies still have problems with fliers cause they still have to use 5th edition codices.

Pretty rich coming from one of the most toxic posters here...

Good post!

Anyways, I"m pretty sure there was that RPG maker system that can be used to play 40k online. I forget the name, it's used for layouts all the time on blogs like 3++.

Kaptain Badrukk

05-27-2014, 09:14 AM

OK folks. Here's a full blown mathhammer attack.
This was not done to disprove OR prove anything, I've literally just run the math because I can.
We will assume the following;
These lists are 1850 points, because that "seems about right in my head for a game these days"
That these are battleforged Armies (because that maximises the scoring potential of summoned daemons).
That our Deamons will use psychic powers for nothing but summoning, so maximise the benefit of their ability.
List 1 will be Daemons
We will act to maximise the number of warp charge dice we can generate in a turn.
This means we won't take any Deamon Princes or Greater Deamons, because the cheapest way of getting warp charge is going to be Heralds of Tzeench and Horrors.
So our Daemon army will consist of 3 identical detachments;
2 x Lvl 3 Heralds (no other upgrades)
2 x 20 horrors with instrument and icon
and 1 Herald at lvl2 with a lesser locus to be our warlord
that's our 1850.

Psychic avg 3.5 (which we'll call 3 and 4 on alternating turns) + 38 dice from the army!
We have 13 models or units who can can cast summoning, but to guarantee (statistically) we need 4 dice.
So now we cast 9 times, and throw hold couple of extra dice in there for the outcome of perils.
We'll keep the summons AWAY from the heralds, since we perils on any double and our chances are 13/18.
Which also means we also roll 6.5 times (so alternating 6 and 7).
That means an average of 5 wounds, d3 lost power dice and one loss of the ability to summon per turn. OUCH!
Ok, then we gain 90 more Horrors. Oh My!
Next turn we'll probably lose 40(ish) horrors, so we've still gained 5 more dice.
So we can summon 10 times and keep 3 by for the inevitable perils, again not one herald needs to take the hit.
So we gain 90 more because i figure we'll get one deny every other turn based on the probabilities.

So now we've reached an extra 90 models on the table, and we've lost 80 but it doesn't matter.
Wow. Brutal. It's like facing the unending storm of chaos!

The downside here is that we are a 1 trick pony, and we're pretty squishy.
BUT we now have units to sacrifice to turn into greater deamons, and won't lose power dice by doing it, so now we can pop tanks and kick ***.
If we weren't fielding an army especially drilled to do this we'd lose our casters and their ability to summon pretty fast, just based on the probability of rolling a double on 4D6.
It's the horrors that make this a viable tactic, but it's still pretty nasty.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 09:14 AM

Cool.

I'm always up for fresh experiences.

Defenestratus

05-27-2014, 09:26 AM

And honestly,I don't play people like you, I play people who want to play fun narrative games. I have too much to do to waste precious hobby time with terrible people.

Lucky you. Others don't have the blessings that you do of a group of gamers who are so altruistic to ensure that you have as good of a time playing as they do. Sadly it's not the case elsewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW the online game system you seek is called "Vassal". If you search for "Vassal 40k" on Google, you'll find it easy peasy.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 09:27 AM

Will have a Google once I'm home.

Cheers dude.

Kaptain Badrukk

05-27-2014, 09:30 AM

Looks pretty good, already downloaded :)

computertrucker

05-27-2014, 09:51 AM

Too bad 40k was never made to be balanced or competitive, else I might have more pity for you.

I hardly ever post here. But this has got to be the dumbest response I have ever read. There is a major difference between something being slightly out of balance and something that is so broken it breaks the game. This is one of those things that breaks the game completely.

Sure it may have been an oversite on GWs part, but even so it's such a major one, that untill it's FAQed or corrected, I know I would not be facing off against any daemon list. Be it at a tournament or for a fun game.

So it not only effects balance to the point of breaking the game, it also impedes fun. Which is what the game is supposed to be about. Well any daemon player as of now should realize their fun is going to be lost due to the fact that the majority of their community will refuse to play against them with the way it stands currently.

Lord Asterion

05-27-2014, 10:04 AM

I hardly ever post here. But this has got to be the dumbest response I have ever read. There is a major difference between something being slightly out of balance and something that is so broken it breaks the game. This is one of those things that breaks the game completely.

Sure it may have been an oversite on GWs part, but even so it's such a major one, that untill it's FAQed or corrected, I know I would not be facing off against any daemon list. Be it at a tournament or for a fun game.

So it not only effects balance to the point of breaking the game, it also impedes fun. Which is what the game is supposed to be about. Well any daemon player as of now should realize their fun is going to be lost due to the fact that the majority of their community will refuse to play against them with the way it stands currently.

The game isn't broken if people don't choose the break it.

DarkLink

05-27-2014, 10:23 AM

So, no then, lots of "very good players" who haven't played the game.

Amazing.

And some who have played games. And some people who understand the fundamental principles of statistics amd basic logic. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that 50 free models a turn is pretty absurd, nor that it is at all unreasonable to summon that many at 1750-2000pt games.

Harley

05-27-2014, 10:42 AM

One thing we can be sure of is in 7th, Psykers are intended to be able to cast powers beyond their mastery level. The GK FAQ specifically gives powers to units which could never have cast them in 6th edition (Banishment is WC3). So... Mastery Level 1 Psykers casting WC3 powers is RAW AND RAI.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 11:01 AM

Was that ever in dispute?

Patrick Boyle

05-27-2014, 11:38 AM

Was that ever in dispute?

Only to wishful thinkers, there was pretty clearly no wording implying otherwise.

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 12:03 PM

Hmm. Question regarding the Possession power.....

If I allowed a Lord of Change or Bloodthirster, both Flying Monstrous Creatures to Possess my dude, they count as deepstriking in.

Does anyone know if that precludes them from coming on 'swooping'? I've had a quick poke through the rules, and I can't see anything either way.

- - - Updated - - -

Also just downloading Vassal 40k. Doesn't look like it's been updated for 7th (not at all surprising, given it's been out for just under 96 hours!) so the actual test game may need to wait a wee bit.

But the game shall be played!

I'm up for exploring a variety of points values, so we can get a better idea of where the game may start to get broken. For instance, I'm not at all feared at 1,500 points - Simply because at that level, most if not all the Daemon's points are sunk into the summoning. 1,850? All the summoning, plus room for some extra toys to get fighting earlier. 1,000? I just don't think summoning will work at all.

Looking for your input here peeps. It's my challenge, but it's everyone's game at the end of the day. :)

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 12:04 PM

Mr Mystery

05-27-2014, 12:10 PM

Groovy.

And for those interested - I will not be using a Necron army specially selected for chinning Daemons, despite Vassal allowing me to field 'whatever' within the points and FoC. I will be sticking to using my existing model collection, just in a digimatal form.

Daemons? No such restrictions. Mostly because I'm kind of doubtful most players currently have a big and wide enough selection to make the most.

Those are my own personal parameters. Nothing will be fudged. Nothing will be obfuscated. All open. If I get my head kicked in, I get my head kicked in. It's all about the honesty!

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 12:12 PM

DarkLink

05-27-2014, 12:34 PM

Well, the card says 3, but the book says banishment is ml1

Harley

05-27-2014, 01:02 PM

Well, the card says 3, but the book says banishment is ml1

ORLY? I'll have to check that when I get home. ML1 would make a lot more sense with what it does... glad I didn't buy the cards if they already have misprints.

Caitsidhe

05-27-2014, 02:35 PM

Well, the card says 3, but the book says banishment is ml1

The real question is whether or not it can be cast over and over again by multiple Psykers to keep lowering the Invul save.

Harley

05-27-2014, 03:31 PM

The real question is whether or not it can be cast over and over again by multiple Psykers to keep lowering the Invul save.

I don't see why not. It even says it's cumulative with other negative modifiers but cannot reduce it past a 6+.

daboarder

05-27-2014, 07:13 PM

HA!

So the horrors can roll daemonology. so yeah good luck.

Big_jon

05-27-2014, 08:48 PM

Too bad 40k was never made to be balanced or competitive, else I might have more pity for you.

Duuuuur

silashand

05-27-2014, 09:31 PM

Too bad 40k was never made to be balanced or competitive, else I might have more pity for you.

And here we have the perfect example of what is wrong with this hobby, i.e. people who believe GW's drivel that it's appropriate in any context for a "game" to allow unfair play as long as it's justified as "not being made for competition." No offense, if you have a winner and a loser then the game is competitive no matter what GW wants people to believe.

Sigh...

ElectricPaladin

05-28-2014, 12:18 AM

And here we have the perfect example of what is wrong with this hobby, i.e. people who believe GW's drivel that it's appropriate in any context for a "game" to allow unfair play as long as it's justified as "not being made for competition." No offense, if you have a winner and a loser then the game is competitive no matter what GW wants people to believe.

Sigh...

As much as I think the tournament scene can go stick it, I have to agree with the sentiment. There's a point in unbalance where the game stops being fun, because where's the enjoyment in the game being determined by which army you were attracted to because of it's narrative, or aesthetics, or history. Oops, you enjoy the spikyness of the Dark Eldar? That's a shame - you aren't ever going to win again unless your opponent decides to handicap himself.

That's just garbage game design.

Mind you, I'm not sure 40k is actually that bad. That remains to be seen.

But I do agree that there is a point in imbalance where the "this is a fun game not a tournament game" defense fails.

White Tiger88

05-28-2014, 12:29 AM

HA!

So the horrors can roll daemonology. so yeah good luck.

Wait does that mean power armor gks can to?

DWest

05-28-2014, 12:44 AM

Wait does that mean power armor gks can to?
I don't believe so, as the various GK squads have specific spells listed for them (usually Hammerhands and Banishment), whereas the Horrors technically got to roll on Change, even if in practice they always stuck with Flickering Fire. Besides, I'm not sure if there's anything worth rolling for in the Sanctic list that the units don't already get built-in. You might get some use out of rolling Cleansing Flame on a Strike Squad and then Deep Striking them somewhere that they can blow things up, but that's not very reliable.

Defenestratus

05-28-2014, 06:49 AM

I just played my first game of 6.1 last night. 2k pts my Eldar vs GK. I generated 8 Warp Charges per turn to his 11. By the end of the game I was generating more than he did.

I *HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE* the new psychic phase.

I got guide off, twice. Doom, never. I got conceal off twice over 5 turns. FNP from my Wraithseer? Yeah.. once.

Its terribly too random. I could throw three dice at a 1 WC power and it not go off. Plus with GK's and their Aegis, it was impossible to cast maledictions on them.

So stupid - I didn't like it. It slowed the game down immensely.... started playing the game at 6pm, didn't finish until 10:20pm. Not acceptable.

Wolfshade

05-28-2014, 06:58 AM

Do you feel that with experiance this time could be sped up?

Defenestratus

05-28-2014, 07:14 AM

Do you feel that with experiance this time could be sped up?

Probably. But we had someone looking up rules and stuff for us.

Also the bookkeeping involved was ludicrous.

Charon

05-28-2014, 07:24 AM

Wolfshade

05-28-2014, 07:54 AM

Probably. But we had someone looking up rules and stuff for us.

Also the bookkeeping involved was ludicrous.

The reason why I asked was that there are something that can be sped up with greater familiarty and there are some things that are always terribly long, like 2nd ed combat. You know no matter how much you know the sheer amount of action means that it will grind a game to a stop every phase.

Defenestratus

05-28-2014, 08:08 AM

Experienced the same with Eldar (6 dice) against IG (3 dice). You dont get off any powers at all, despite having invested more than double the amount of points. Psychic phase was rather short as you try to get your "Guide" off.
The thing which was terribl terribly terribly slowing us down where the Maelstorm missions.

It really makes it a buzzkill when your army sort of *depends* on psychic buffs in order to do what it is that they do and you just can't roll a 4+ to make it happen. Take everything people complained about with random charge range and apply it to the psychic phase.

That beein said, if you dont wanna play massive psyker deathstar eldar dont even bother to play vs an Ig gunline anymore. Hydra and Wyvern batteries are just stupidly effective now.

Dude, IG are broken now with the amount of special rules they get. I haven't been able to beat them yet. Forget beat... I haven't even been able to *compete* with them yet. Every squad that shoots just removes a squad off the board. Its stupid even trying to play against unless you want to go with the broken beardcheese lists.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason why I asked was that there are something that can be sped up with greater familiarty and there are some things that are always terribly long, like 2nd ed combat. You know no matter how much you know the sheer amount of action means that it will grind a game to a stop every phase.

A fair amount of time was wasted trying to figure out if we had achieved the maelstrom missions. A fair amount of time was used in determining the results of the psychic phase. I'd wager that 50% of that time on those new mechanics can be eliminated due to process familiarization.

Thaldin

05-28-2014, 09:30 AM

Defenestratus

05-28-2014, 09:41 AM

Defenestratus, so basically, you are saying our Eldar's code powers have been gutted?

Warlocks went from being able to auto-cast, to leadership check, to 4+ check over the years... making it harder to cast with each release... *sighs* I could accept the leadership checks, but for a psi race to continually lose power... hurts... I do understand we aren't as dependent on the powers as we used to be, but damn...

I should just put it in perspective.

Before the psychic phase, my farseer could case Guide, Doom and another worthless power I had (I drew Eldrich storm and executioner, which is bar none the worst power in the entire game) every round. Only occasionally being denied on doom. Then my Wraithseer could cast FNP on a squad of Wraithblades, my spiritseer could cast a buff on the WB, and my warlocks could make my guardians get a 2+ Cover save in ruins with about a 75% of reliability.

If you want to cast widespread powers in such a fashion, its simply not going to happen anymore. Sure you can throw a lot of dice at a single power or two, but you're not going to get reliable casting on these 1 WC powers unless you toss 3 dice at them - which drains what you can do from your other powers.

Its very frustrating for someone who likes to play Eldar in the way that they should be - with complimentary units that give each other buffs on the table in order to be effective.

DarkLink

05-28-2014, 10:00 AM

Read the gk faq.

As much as I think the tournament scene can go stick it, I have to agree with the sentiment. There's a point in unbalance where the game stops being fun, because where's the enjoyment in the game being determined by which army you were attracted to because of it's narrative, or aesthetics, or history. Oops, you enjoy the spikyness of the Dark Eldar? That's a shame - you aren't ever going to win again unless your opponent decides to handicap himself.

That's just garbage game design.

Mind you, I'm not sure 40k is actually that bad. That remains to be seen.

But I do agree that there is a point in imbalance where the "this is a fun game not a tournament game" defense fails.

It's borderline. I think 40k is 70% of a great game. Well thought out community tweaks can bring it up to 80-85%. It won't ever get above 90 until gw starts taking things more seriously, but 85% is still pretty good.

Thaldin

05-28-2014, 10:00 AM

@Defenestratus

That's what I was afraid of... I still like to use some of the under-utilized units because I could use those support powers to make them at least a mild threat on the table. Now, the psychic/tactical synergy is unreliable at best... (but yes, still there...)

ElectricPaladin

05-28-2014, 10:49 AM

It's borderline. I think 40k is 70% of a great game. Well thought out community tweaks can bring it up to 80-85%. It won't ever get above 90 until gw starts taking things more seriously, but 85% is still pretty good.

That seems good to me.

Unrelatedly, I have to say it: you were right, I was wrong. GW did issue a FAQ, and it was exactly as bad as predicted. We'll have to hope the FAQ gets reFAQed, because right now Daemons are all FAQed up.

Caitsidhe

05-28-2014, 10:55 AM

That seems good to me.

Unrelatedly, I have to say it: you were right, I was wrong. GW did issue a FAQ, and it was exactly as bad as predicted. We'll have to hope the FAQ gets reFAQed, because right now Daemons are all FAQed up.

That they are. Fat chance on any corrections until they feel they have sold the backlog of Daemons they built up.

Defenestratus

05-28-2014, 10:59 AM

That they are. Fat chance on any corrections until they feel they have sold the backlog of Daemons they built up.

Then they'll get heldrake'd right? :P

Caitsidhe

05-28-2014, 11:08 AM

Then they'll get heldrake'd right? :P

<laughs> I don't actually think the rules change to my Drakes is all that bad, but yes... only after they feel they have made the required sales will they even consider nerfing that silliness. It isn't a screw up. They did it on purpose. What Games Workshop doesn't seem to understand is that nobody needs to go buy more Daemons. There is a glut of them around. This isn't going to create a rush to the store.

Mr Mystery

05-28-2014, 11:41 AM

Caitsidhe

05-28-2014, 11:47 AM

I think that's a bit awry.

After all, Daemons 4 U is a good sales tool. GW stores, FLGS? Both in the habit of making money. And to be able to offer the add on sale of a box of your favoured Naughtiness Incarnate is pretty easy.

Some will buy second hand sure. But many more are liable to be buying fresh :)

We will have to agree to disagree. There has been a glut of Lesser Daemons on the market for some time. Hell, people were giving them away in my area. There is a bits box out back that I could probably put together a ton of Daemons from. Also, most people aren't that sentimental about Daemon models, being just as happy to have earlier edition versions on the table as current. Will some sales be generated by this crass trick? Yes. Will enough sales be generated to offset the downside? No. All I did was dig my Daemons out of storage and raided by bits bin. The issue is the only one REALLY tricked out to take advantage of this idiotic rule is a Daemon player. Pure Daemon Players (and even CSM) tend to already have the Daemons they need. Other faction players are unlikely to need very many of them and few (if any) can generate enough Warp Charges to abuse it properly. In short, it won't generate the sales because the target faction already has a substantial Daemon collection.

And let's be frank here, the non-GW model potential for this range is huge.

chicop76

05-28-2014, 01:10 PM

<laughs> I don't actually think the rules change to my Drakes is all that bad, but yes... only after they feel they have made the required sales will they even consider nerfing that silliness. It isn't a screw up. They did it on purpose. What Games Workshop doesn't seem to understand is that nobody needs to go buy more Daemons. There is a glut of them around. This isn't going to create a rush to the store.

Says you. Gives me an excuse to buy more. I always wanted to get more horrors and daemonettes. Now I have an excuse. Also now I think I'll work on my nurgle conversions and get a nurgle Herald.

If I get my 500 pts back I can field 3k-4k worth of daemons already, so the new rule set allows me to dust off a few daemon models.

Mr Mystery

05-28-2014, 01:45 PM

Charon

05-28-2014, 02:00 PM

But what of those who don't currently play Daemons?

The models are all quite nice (literally just sold my Daemons, really enjoyed building them. Balancing my finances, ready for LARP season, rather than 7th Ed :p ) and convert well too.

That's a lot of people now able to field them that couldn't before. Potential sales a-go-go.

Matter of taste. I always had some daemons for my CSM army. Didnt bother buy new ones as they do not compare to the older ones. Greater Daemons where always ugly (and I have to say I liked the old metal Keeper and Lord still more than the new ones) and the previous lesser daemons where really really good.
I dislike the current daemonettes and bloodletters...

Mr Mystery

05-28-2014, 02:02 PM

Must get my bro to count how many Diazmonettes we have between us. Can never bloody remember if it's 20, 30 or 40!

Agree on the GD's. Apart from the Great Unclean One, which is still suitably gribbly. Rest are bobbins. Including the Lord of Change (Kairos excepted)

Charon

05-28-2014, 02:20 PM

Still dont know why they discarded these beauties

8990

or these fiends

8991

Mr Mystery

05-28-2014, 02:22 PM

Never liked those Bloodletters. Only ones that didn't have the sword. And much too muscly and bulky. I much prefer the gangly ones!

I think the real beauty of the current plastic Daemons is that they can sit alongside any of their predecessor sculpts without sticking out like a sore thumb.

Charon

05-28-2014, 02:26 PM

The ones before had even more muscles :D
The ganly ones are more like the early 2nd edition ones... never saw them fitting as Khorne always was a more "physical" god with strong warriors and not warped slendermen who look like they cant even lift their sword.

ElectricPaladin

05-28-2014, 02:37 PM

Still dont know why they discarded these beauties

8990

If these gals were still available, I'd be investing heavily in Slaanesh, not focusing on Tzeentch.

Caitsidhe

05-28-2014, 04:13 PM

But what of those who don't currently play Daemons?

The models are all quite nice (literally just sold my Daemons, really enjoyed building them. Balancing my finances, ready for LARP season, rather than 7th Ed :p ) and convert well too.

That's a lot of people now able to field them that couldn't before. Potential sales a-go-go.

What about them? I feel sorry for them if they rush in to buy Daemons based on this bait and switch. :D We all know from experience that this isn't going to last longer than 4-6 months. I would tell anyone new wanting to get into Daemons that they should buy from Ebay first. They can get entire armies at 50-75% off and start with them painted in many cases. And in fact, that is exactly the direction I push new players. Older players already know.

chicop76

05-28-2014, 09:24 PM

I'll hold off getting or model anything till I fully digest 7th and read a few reports. That being said the models I was going to buy was the models I was thinking of getting before 7th came out, just 7th seemed to shout buy ke more.

Honestly I been staying away from my daemons since they cause more rage quitting than my Tau. My Tau is better, yet given the option people rather face my Tau over my Daemons. I admit I probably wouldn't want to be on the other side of daemons and playing against other daemon players with daemons simply i snt fun.

The problem I have is making a fun list, that can win, and have the units I like in it. I typically won't use a unit I don't like how it looks. For example I don't like how nurgle daemons look and don't use them. However I have a cool looking Nurgle prince. Although I have to admit I still rarely field it.

However for example I use stealth suits, and sniper drones in my Tau army. Anyway even though I run 3 plasma sentinels, Way ran 3 before they got a lot cheaper.

I want to make sure that if I want to run a sentinel army or a Thunderwolf army I want to make sure it's legal.

ElectricPaladin

05-28-2014, 09:30 PM

I have decided to start Daemons as a result of the release of Daemonology, but honestly I did it because my three favorite things in wargaming are allowing my guys to move in unusual ways, forcing my opponent's guys to move in unusual ways, and summoning new guys onto the battlefield. It would take Malfic Daemonology being removed from the game entirely or Daemons somehow losing it altogether to ruin my fun.

chicop76

05-28-2014, 09:57 PM

Personally I liked the old daemon rules where you had to deep strike in with half your army. I can say against armies like Tau I was wiping out 1/2 the army most of the time before they even had a chance to shoot at me, helped to have flamers and be able to move models.

Anyway i probably will retire playing daemons awhile since no one I know really wants to fight daemons and the new rules just make it harder. It's bad when the people who didn't mind the grey knights mind the daemons.

Although I do have a hard time vs armies like Tau, depends on who goes first really.

Anyway I did want to say I think the newer daemon models look a lot better than the older ones. Maybe excluding the daemonettes though. I like the Tzeentch wizard or what ever for fantasy. I took some fantasy exclusive models and used them as heralds. I also converted the guy withthe sword and shield into a slaanesh Herald on steed. I plan to ge my hands on the nurgle one and do the same thing one day.

Again I am leaning towards guard/ sisters/ and grey knights for 7th. Heck I might throw in space marines, I wouldn't be surprised if I decided to do guard/ sisters/ marines. I'm not sure but I do want to run a full humanity army which seem like it might be possible. Would be cool to have Inquisition/ guard/ marines/ grey knights/ sisters in one army.