New Psychic Powers, Who Gets What?

[Just_Me]

So having pursued the new rules and the new psychic powers in particular I am left with a few questions I'm sure others are asking themselves and have probably already discussed. Simply put I'm unsure how the new psychic discipline chart interacts with the listed disciplines for each entry in individual Codexes.

As an example, according to the chart the Inquisition has access to ALL the disciplines but the entries for each inquisitor only give them access to Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis (as an alternative to the codex powers). No other reference is made to the chart in the rules, except for the new Daemonology disciplines, only as a supplement to the psychic cards. So in this example does an inquisitor ONLY have access to those powers listed in his/her entry or can he/she generate powers from the Biomancy, Telepathy, or Daemonology disciplines as per the chart? The same question applies to psykers from other Codexes with access to more disciplines than present in their codex (e.g. Space Marines, Astra Militarum, etc.).

Obviously this screams for a series of FAQ but who knows when that's going to happen? Until then what is the general consensus on how to interpret this?

[DarkLink]

It should be pretty obvious what the answer is, and if some tries to give you crap about it, then you know what sort of player they are.

That said, maleific daemonology and some of the new psychic stuff is straight up broken, so I'm pretty sure the community will come to some sort of agreement over what is and isn't acceptable regardless of what GW says the rules are.

[ElectricPaladin]

Though, amusingly, it will take a FAQ before some armies can actually take any kind of daemonology... in some codices, the unit entry lists the disciplines they can have - such as the Codex: Daemons of Chaos, where different units have access to different disciplines depending on their patron Power. Without FAQ explicitly granting them access to a new discipline, they can't actually take it.

[The Madman]

Here you go, the new psychic powers pack comes with a card with a revised table on who gets what.
8947

[ElectricPaladin]

Here you go, the new psychic powers pack comes with a card with a revised table on who gets what.
8947

We've seen this. In fact, I own one.

It still doesn't trump the codex's list of which units get which powers - remember not every codex is the Space Marine codex with a single option who gets any of the powers available, there are some codices with multiple psyker units each of which gets access to some of the powers available to the faction - which means that nobody can take Daemonology until it's FAQed.

You can go all RAI and make up your own mind, but I think that given how powerful both kinds of Daemonology seem likely to be, I think we are going to see availability as a limitation. Will pink horrors get it? Probably not. I predict that it will be limited to Daemon princes and greater Daemons, which means that only one or two units in a Daemon army will be capable of spawning new units, and they won't be able to replace themselves without dying - kill those guys and the summoning turns off.

As Daemons have no long range shooting, the Daemon player will face a quandary. Move the summoner up the board and risk exposure to fire, or keep him back and deal with the fact that all your summoned units will have to survive a long trek up the board, through enemy fire, to reach your opponents' lines. There isn't a lot that Daemons can easily summon that wants to stay in the same ruin where your lord of change or Daemon prince is hiding!

[Caitsidhe]

We've seen this. In fact, I own one.

It still doesn't trump the codex's list of which units get which powers - remember not every codex is the Space Marine codex with a single option who gets any of the powers available, there are some codices with multiple psyker units each of which gets access to some of the powers available to the faction - which means that nobody can take Daemonology until it's FAQed.

You can go all RAI and make up your own mind, but I think that given how powerful both kinds of Daemonology seem likely to be, I think we are going to see availability as a limitation. Will pink horrors get it? Probably not. I predict that it will be limited to Daemon princes and greater Daemons, which means that only one or two units in a Daemon army will be capable of spawning new units, and they won't be able to replace themselves without dying - kill those guys and the summoning turns off.

As Daemons have no long range shooting, the Daemon player will face a quandary. Move the summoner up the board and risk exposure to fire, or keep him back and deal with the fact that all your summoned units will have to survive a long trek up the board, through enemy fire, to reach your opponents' lines. There isn't a lot that Daemons can easily summon that wants to stay in the same ruin where your lord of change or Daemon prince is hiding!

I hope you are right. I personally would like to see a simple Faq that says Psyker's cannot cast spells which are above their ML. :D That too would solve the problem.

[DarkLink]

If you think that no one can take any of those powers, you're being incredibly, blatantly obtuse. Beside, only 6th ed codices have an rules regarding what powers you can take, so all the old books can use that chart.

And if you really want to be rules-lawyer-y? The codices only grant permission, not denial. With the codex on its own, you only have permission to use certain disciplines. But when you get additional permissions from the rulebook, there's nothing in the codex to contradict the new permissions. You can, in fact, take daemonology powers, even if you stick to pure raw.

[Caitsidhe]

If you think that no one can take any of those powers, you're being incredibly, blatantly obtuse. Beside, only 6th ed codices have an rules regarding what powers you can take, so all the old books can use that chart.

And if you really want to be rules-lawyer-y? The codices only grant permission, not denial. With the codex on its own, you only have permission to use certain disciplines. But when you get additional permissions from the rulebook, there's nothing in the codex to contradict the new permissions. You can, in fact, take daemonology powers, even if you stick to pure raw.

Sadly this is quite true. Until they Faq otherwise, everyone can take that crap. I hope there is a nice, solid nerf (I can think of three... anyone one of which would solve the problem) but since I happen to think this horrendous design was done on purpose, I do not have high hopes that it will be reigned in.

[Just_Me]

Here you go, the new psychic powers pack comes with a card with a revised table on who gets what.
8947

That chart is actually precisely what caused my original confusion. :p
Is it intended to supersede the printed powers in each unit entry in the applicable codex? That DOES seem to be the intention and would fit with what happened with the last edition's psychic powers, but unfortunately until that is specifically spelled out in an FAQ or Errata document there will be confusion. In the interim I was simply curious what the general consensus is.

[The Madman]

Snip

I'd say it trumps the codex's for the simple fact it is seventh edition rules and the codex's are sixth edition. quite simple really.

[Throne Agent]

If you think that no one can take any of those powers, you're being incredibly, blatantly obtuse. Beside, only 6th ed codices have an rules regarding what powers you can take, so all the old books can use that chart.

And if you really want to be rules-lawyer-y? The codices only grant permission, not denial. With the codex on its own, you only have permission to use certain disciplines. But when you get additional permissions from the rulebook, there's nothing in the codex to contradict the new permissions. You can, in fact, take daemonology powers, even if you stick to pure raw.


No, you can take Daemonology because if you read page 28 of the rule book it states that "any pskyer, except those from the Tyranids Faction, make generate Daemonology Powers".

Read the rules.

You can't take the others unless your Codex says you can.

[DarkLink]

...what? I'm literally saying exactly the opposite of what I think you think I'm thinking.

To clarify; the BRB allows everyone (except nids) to take daemonology, just like you said. The argument that "the codex doesn't allow it" doesn't work because the BRB grants you access to the powers and the codex does nothing to actually contradict that, ergo you may, by RAW take daemonology.

The other half of my point was just saying that it probably won't matter because daemonology is so massively broken it'll probably just get banned most places. We'll see.

[Stéphane Roy]

But what about fixed power. The rulebook says that if some power are specifically list in an entry, you must use those one and not generate others.

So what about Coteaz for example. He is ML2, and have the fixed power hammerhand, dark excommunication and sanctuary. So does that means he can't generate on the tables and must use those? And what version of those, sanctuary in C:GK is not the same as Sanctuary in BRB.

What about strike squad? Can they generate a power, being ML1?
And the GK:librarian, is he still stuck with hammerhand + 1 generated?

All this was corrected in the 6th ed faqs, but clearly we cannot apply it to 7th, and the 7th brb clearly state that you keep the fixed power....

[ElectricPaladin]

...what? I'm literally saying exactly the opposite of what I think you think I'm thinking.

To clarify; the BRB allows everyone (except nids) to take daemonology, just like you said. The argument that "the codex doesn't allow it" doesn't work because the BRB grants you access to the powers and the codex does nothing to actually contradict that, ergo you may, by RAW take daemonology.

The other half of my point was just saying that it probably won't matter because daemonology is so massively broken it'll probably just get banned most places. We'll see.

*Ahem*

BRB p28: "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

In the case of every codex released thus far, the otherwise is, in fact, stated.

Codex: Daemons of Chaos p37: "A Lord of Change generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines."

Codex: Daemons of Chaos p38: "Pink Horrors generate their powers from the Change discipline... a Herald of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines."

And so on.

[Learn2Eel]

*Ahem*

BRB p28: "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

In the case of every codex released thus far, the otherwise is, in fact, stated.

Codex: Daemons of Chaos p37: "A Lord of Change generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines."

Codex: Daemons of Chaos p38: "Pink Horrors generate their powers from the Change discipline... a Herald of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines."

And so on.

When 6th Edition came out, do you think everyone waited for the Codex FAQs to say which armies could use which rulebook psychic disciplines despite the rulebook itself saying who could and could not?

This way of thinking makes zero sense, really. Yes, codex trumps rulebook for the most part, but not when there is a new rulebook with revised rules that causes the codices to become *outdated*. If you seriously go into a gaming store and say an opponent can't use Malefic Daemonology then you will get laughed out of the area.

Why release a new rulebook with updated rules for all codices then if players think specific rule changes don't apply to their own codices when clearly they state otherwise? Per the 7th Edition High Elf book Tyrion should have been able to take both his 4+ ward save and 4+ Regeneration save, but the 8th Edition rulebook stopped that in preparation for his new rules. You can use the same logic here.

[DarkLink]

No, it's not otherwise stated. This is a reading comprehension thing. Unless otherwise stated means that if somewhere it says "you may not take x", then you can't take x. Nowhere does it contradict the permission granted by the BRB. ""A Lord of Change generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines."" does not in any way, shape, or form deny the possibility of further permissions from different sources.

Say you have two friends. One says "you can play with my toy Y". The other says "as long as no one says you can't, you can play with my toy X". Your ability to play with toy Y does not deny you the ability to play with toy X, therefore you may play with toy X because your second friend has given you permission to do so.

[Buddhist_Possum]

I love that only the cards have the grid showing restrictions (besides the whole Tyranid not using Daemonology stuff).

There is nothing in the main rule book that says everyone has access to the grid of Disciplines.

The FAQs are going to say everything we need to hear about who can use what, or so we can hope.

[DarkLink]

Honestly, I think this is the dumbest rules argument I've ever been involved in. Psykers are allowed to take Daemonology. It could not be more clear on the matter. It literally explicitly states it. A single ounce of common sense points like a neon light to the blatantly obvious answer that psykers can take daemonology. Any argument against it basically results in the fact that literally no one can take half of the rulebook powers, a patently absurd claim, and those arguments are dodgey rules-lawyering at best. I think I need to find a picture of Picard face-palming to post here.


But what about fixed power. The rulebook says that if some power are specifically list in an entry, you must use those one and not generate others.

Quote that rule. How is it worded? I looked, and I didn't see anything that said this that was worded in a way that would contradict the previous statement of "unless otherwise stated... blah blah".

[Stéphane Roy]

Brb Psychic phase, under the generating Psychics powers

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic
powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start
the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random
psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

[ElectricPaladin]

DarkLink, the rules also don't state that it is not true that if I pull down my pants and fart on the table, ever model that is knocked over by my emission counts as slain by the "breath of Nurgle." There are lots of things that the rules don't explicitly forbid. We must infer what is permitted by what the rules tell us to do.

In my mind, "unless otherwise stated" means... well, unless otherwise stated. It doesn't mean "unless explicitly forbidden." That would be a different set of words, with a different meaning. "Unless otherwise stated" means "in the absence of other instructions." What you have not yet shown is why the text of the codex does not constitute other instructions. In my mind, it does.

I don't think that this is a "dumb" argument. I think that both of our interpretations are equally valid... which is why this needs to be FAQed.

That said, I'm not actually arguing that there's any chance that Daemons aren't going to get Daemonology. The question is which Daemons. There's a world of difference between "only my Daemon prince can take Daemonology" or "greater Daemons and heralds can take Daemonology, but daemon princes can't" and "everyone, including pink horrors, can take Daemonology." Heck, in the world of we don't know what we don't know, perhaps only your Warlord can take Daemonology, or it will only be accessible to certain units, and with a pricey upgrade.

Over in the other thread (that's more or less exactly on the same topic...) I showed that Codex: Daemons of Chaos is not consistent about which psykers can use which disciplines. This isn't Codex: Space Marines where librarians can access every power, because librarians are pretty much your only option. This is a whole other kettle of fish, where not only does each greater Daemon have access to a different slice of the pie, they have different options from the Daemon princes, and at least one special character who has access to a discipline that nobody else in the book has (that's Kairos, who gets Pyromancy, if you're keeping score at home).

Re: Learn2Eel, your argument has one major flaw. GW did promptly (well, fairly promptly - promptly for GW) issue a set of FAQs that did clear up the issue, granting permission for codex psykers to use BRB disciplines. Which brings me back around to my main point: we don't know what we don't know, and in a codex where the psychic powers are as varied as they are in Codex: Daemons of Chaos, it will take a FAQ to make the intentions of the designers clear.

[DarkLink]

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic
powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start
the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random
psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

So, sure, Grey Knights aren't allowed to generate any psychic powers at all. I'm sure that will be exactly how it works.


We must infer what is permitted by what the rules tell us to do.

Yes. And the rules state that, unless something doesn't let you, then you can take daemonology, and there's nothing in the codex rules that prevents this. See my toy example.


It doesn't mean "unless explicitly forbidden."

That's literally exactly what it means. The statement, phrased another way, means "you can do this unless something says you can't". Nothing else says you can't, so because you've been given permission, you can.


DarkLink, the rules also don't state that it is not true that if I pull down my pants and fart on the table, ever model that is knocked over by my emission counts as slain by the "breath of Nurgle." There are lots of things that the rules don't explicitly forbid.

That's a red herring, and you know it.



GW will probably shortly release a packet of FAQs (don't know why they didn't have some prepared for immediate release, to be honest) that answers this question. Communities and the tournament scene will probably straight up ban daemonology immediately. The argument is easy to reductio ad absurdum to death. That's why I think it's dumb, or I guess more precisely, pointless.

[Buddhist_Possum]

DarkLink, the rules also don't state that it is not true that if I pull down my pants and fart on the table, ever model that is knocked over by my emission counts as slain by the "breath of Nurgle." There are lots of things that the rules don't explicitly forbid. We must infer what is permitted by what the rules tell us to do.

In my mind, "unless otherwise stated" means... well, unless otherwise stated. It doesn't mean "unless explicitly forbidden." That would be a different set of words, with a different meaning. "Unless otherwise stated" means "in the absence of other instructions." What you have not yet shown is why the text of the codex does not constitute other instructions. In my mind, it does.

I don't think that this is a "dumb" argument. I think that both of our interpretations are equally valid... which is why this needs to be FAQed.

That said, I'm not actually arguing that there's any chance that Daemons aren't going to get Daemonology. The question is which Daemons. There's a world of difference between "only my Daemon prince can take Daemonology" or "greater Daemons and heralds can take Daemonology, but daemon princes can't" and "everyone, including pink horrors, can take Daemonology." Heck, in the world of we don't know what we don't know, perhaps only your Warlord can take Daemonology, or it will only be accessible to certain units, and with a pricey upgrade.

Over in the other thread (that's more or less exactly on the same topic...) I showed that Codex: Daemons of Chaos is not consistent about which psykers can use which disciplines. This isn't Codex: Space Marines where librarians can access every power, because librarians are pretty much your only option. This is a whole other kettle of fish, where not only does each greater Daemon have access to a different slice of the pie, they have different options from the Daemon princes, and at least one special character who has access to a discipline that nobody else in the book has (that's Kairos, who gets Pyromancy, if you're keeping score at home).

Re: Learn2Eel, your argument has one major flaw. GW did promptly (well, fairly promptly - promptly for GW) issue a set of FAQs that did clear up the issue, granting permission for codex psykers to use BRB disciplines. Which brings me back around to my main point: we don't know what we don't know, and in a codex where the psychic powers are as varied as they are in Codex: Daemons of Chaos, it will take a FAQ to make the intentions of the designers clear.

Librarians didn't have Divination. Now, hopefully after the FAQs, they will. Also, Daemonology.

- - - Updated - - -


So, sure, Grey Knights aren't allowed to generate any psychic powers at all. I'm sure that will be exactly how it works.



Yes. And the rules state that, unless something doesn't let you, then you can take daemonology, and there's nothing in the codex rules that prevents this. See my toy example.



That's literally exactly what it means. The statement, phrased another way, means "you can do this unless something says you can't". Nothing else says you can't, so because you've been given permission, you can.



That's a red herring, and you know it.



GW will probably shortly release a packet of FAQs (don't know why they didn't have some prepared for immediate release, to be honest) that answers this question. Communities and the tournament scene will probably straight up ban daemonology immediately. The argument is easy to reductio ad absurdum to death. That's why I think it's dumb, or I guess more precisely, pointless.

So a rule GW put in the book will just be outright banned? Sounds like tournaments are just gonna be "whatever the organizer feels is fair" instead of rules setup by the company making it.

Why do people still play this game in tournaments if they b*tch so much about rules?

I believe they will restrict what will be able to take what, probably with something like "This unit can manifest powers from Change discipline, but cannot from Daemonology" in the case of pink horrors, or something like that.

[ElectricPaladin]

GW will probably shortly release a packet of FAQs (don't know why they didn't have some prepared for immediate release, to be honest) that answers this question. Communities and the tournament scene will probably straight up ban daemonology immediately. The argument is easy to reductio ad absurdum to death. That's why I think it's dumb, or I guess more precisely, pointless.

Tournaments, probably. Communities? I don't know. I maintain that if Daemonology is sharply limited to a few valuable, HQ slot models, it won't be too broken. Sure, everyone will need to bring an army that can gun for those heralds and greater daemons and gun for them hard, but how is that any different from trying to disrupt any of the various killer combos that are out there? How is you having to try to kill my lord of change different from a Tau player trying to pop your land raider so that the death company inside can't make it to his gunline? Three potential Daemon summonings a turn - if only heralds and greater Daemons can take it - is different from the bazillion or more you get if you assume that anyone can take it. And if only greater Daemons can take Daemonology, well... you're not likely to see three of those in a list outside of very large games, and a smaller list that tries to spam three greater Daemons is going to be weak in other ways.

[Learn2Eel]

Re: Learn2Eel, your argument has one major flaw. GW did promptly (well, fairly promptly - promptly for GW) issue a set of FAQs that did clear up the issue, granting permission for codex psykers to use BRB disciplines. Which brings me back around to my main point: we don't know what we don't know, and in a codex where the psychic powers are as varied as they are in Codex: Daemons of Chaos, it will take a FAQ to make the intentions of the designers clear.

They did that because many players didn't get the memo from the White Dwarf and the rulebook when it was quite clear who got what (only Librarians and Inquisitors could take rulebook powers for Codex: Grey Knights). It was also to clear up which individual psykers in an army got which powers. I agree that they need FAQs to say which particular psykers in a codex get which disciplines, but the earlier argument (not specifically yours) that said no-one gets Daemonology just reeks of obtuse thinking to me.

[chicop76]

Honestly given that psychic power phase.and generating more models.take.up time. It's like running 3 tervigons in 5th. The reason I lost was due to time. With all the powers.and models I was eating up.time and had to.switch to.a.quicker playing army.

With daemons you have a long reward and psychic roll phase on top of a possible psychic phase turn with generating more models. All that eats time and doesn't equate.to an easy win.

Although deep striking extra models.is actually beneficial. Besides.that, if given unlimited time I would say Daemons are.op.If every daemon psyker have access.to daemonology. However in a timed setting I don't see it as being as op as people.make them out to be.

[Learn2Eel]

Honestly given that psychic power phase.and generating more models.take.up time. It's like running 3 tervigons in 5th. The reason I lost was due to time. With all the powers.and models I was eating up.time and had to.switch to.a.quicker playing army.

With daemons you have a long reward and psychic roll phase on top of a possible psychic phase turn with generating more models. All that eats time and doesn't equate.to an easy win.

Although deep striking extra models.is actually beneficial. Besides.that, if given unlimited time I would say Daemons are.op.If every daemon psyker have access.to daemonology. However in a timed setting I don't see it as being as op as people.make them out to be.

It really is Warhammer 40,000: Daemons Edition. I said that as a joke a week ago but it looks like it is the stone cold truth and that frightens me. If Games Workshop don't pounce on this with Erratas early on they are going to lose competitive players in big numbers!

Actually, this is starting to remind me of 7th Edition Fantasy.....except this time it is 7th Edition 40K. You get a few seemingly over-powered army books (High Elves/Eldar, Tau/Dark Elves, etc) but then the real meat-grinder in Chaos Daemons/Daemons of Chaos comes along and pretty much demands a new edition just to fix how broken they are. It's like the 40K writers are following in the foot-steps of Fantasy. The horror! :(

[ElectricPaladin]

...that said no-one gets Daemonology just reeks of obtuse thinking to me.

You've got to read my actual posts, man. I never said no one gets Daemonology. I just said that who gets it might (will probably, will hopefully) be more complicated than what some people - including the grim playtests that were posted earlier - have assumed, which is that every psyker in the whole codex will have it as an option.

[Lord Krungharr]

I do think the psykers without specific powers given do have access to Daemonology per the BRB. I can see the other side, but this whole 'permissive ruleset' mentality is taken too far too often. It doesn't even say in the BRB 'this is a permissive ruleset', and one could argue for volumes over what that really means anyway.

But the BRB gives permission for all non-bug psykers to have Daemonologies, and the Daemons Codex doesn't say they cannot. The Daemonology would be an extra discipline for all psykers that don't have exclusion clauses like the word 'only', or just flat out list the powers they can take.

I do like the suggestion of limiting a psyker to casting a power of Warp Charge cost equal to or less than his Mastery Level. Though he could of course use as many Warp Charges as desired to cast it (and then probably suffer a Perils attack).

Don't they playtest this crap?!

[ElectricPaladin]

The Daemonology would be an extra discipline for all psykers that don't have exclusion clauses like the word 'only', or just flat out list the powers they can take.

Here's my question - and it's a genuine question, I could be wrong here - can you think of one example of an exclusion clause like 'only' being used in this context in a GW codex? The lack of said clause would leave open the possibility that your logic, while theoretically sound, is not how GW thinks.

I'm a Jew. We have an extremely detailed process of interpreting texts, which backs our historical religious law (as a reform Jew, I've never actually lived under said law, but I've studied it). So, I kind of have a thing for talmudic processes, which sometimes leads me to be detailed to the point of absurdity in these kinds of discussions. :D

[Eldar_Atog]

You've got to read my actual posts, man. I never said no one gets Daemonology. I just said that who gets it might (will probably, will hopefully) be more complicated than what some people - including the grim playtests that were posted earlier - have assumed, which is that every psyker in the whole codex will have it as an option.

I usually prefer to avoid the rules arguments but you are really reaching ElectricPaladin. The BRB is very blunt about this on page 28.

Which makes more sense to you?

1) GW states in the BRB that all psykers, excluding tyranids, have access to Demonology. They then update each army FAQ and explicitly say that all psykers have access to Demonology, excluding Tyranids.

2) GW states in the BRB that all psykers, excluding tyranids, have access to Demonology. They then update each army FAQ and explicitly say that only this subset of psykers have access to Demonology, excluding Tyranids.

Option 2 just doesn't make any sense to me logically. If GW was only going to allow a subset of psykers from those codexes to have access to this school, why would they include the word "all" in that sentence? Without that single word, your argument would sound feasible.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm just saying, have you read Codex: Daemons of Chaos? There's no single unit in the entire book who has access to all the disciplines that are theoretically available to "Daemons." Not a single one. I think that this is worth considering. When it's obvious to everyone that the Daemon codex will be stupid if everyone gets Daemonology, why isn't anyone considering the possibility that GW will take a lighter touch?

[Charon]

Even if they would limit it to princes and greater daemons, thats still 40 daemons a turn with horrors and heralds just fuelling the power.
Space Marines for example only have a single caster so its quite obvious who will get it

[DarkLink]

Even if you limit it to just a few powers a turn, or even a single power a turn, it's still broken. Just slightly less so. An extra free 50 daemons for zero meaningful investment? Why not.

[sneakyben]

Here you go, the new psychic powers pack comes with a card with a revised table on who gets what.
8947

Is this table in the new BRB, or just with the cards?

And what is 'force'? can't find that in the BRB either (because I am stoopid? :-))

[Learn2Eel]

You've got to read my actual posts, man. I never said no one gets Daemonology. I just said that who gets it might (will probably, will hopefully) be more complicated than what some people - including the grim playtests that were posted earlier - have assumed, which is that every psyker in the whole codex will have it as an option.

Which is why I mentioned that I wasn't referring so much to your opinion specifically but rather some people who have actually used that train of thought.

[DWest]

Here's my question - and it's a genuine question, I could be wrong here - can you think of one example of an exclusion clause like 'only' being used in this context in a GW codex? The lack of said clause would leave open the possibility that your logic, while theoretically sound, is not how GW thinks.

I'm a Jew. We have an extremely detailed process of interpreting texts, which backs our historical religious law (as a reform Jew, I've never actually lived under said law, but I've studied it). So, I kind of have a thing for talmudic processes, which sometimes leads me to be detailed to the point of absurdity in these kinds of discussions. :D
Generally speaking, GW is a stickler for 'order of operations' in their rules, which is where the argument for Daemonology being granted to all Daemon psykers comes from. The rule says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers may take powers from the Daemonolgy discipline", which should read, for completeness sake, "Unless [it] is otherwise stated [that the unit may not take these powers] all Psykers may take powers from the Daemonolgy discipline". Codex: Chaos Daemons states that Pink Horrors, for example, may take powers from the Change discipline, but it does not specifically state that they may not take powers from the Daemonology discipline.

[The Madman]

Is this table in the new BRB, or just with the cards?

And what is 'force'? can't find that in the BRB either (because I am stoopid? :-))

Force is on Page 23 (top left grey box, its for using the force ability on force weapons.) and the chart is only available in the card deck it seems (massive oversight on GW's part).

[ElectricPaladin]

Which is why I mentioned that I wasn't referring so much to your opinion specifically but rather some people who have actually used that train of thought.

Fair 'nuff. Must have missed that. Derpity derp.

[Buddhist_Possum]

Is this table in the new BRB, or just with the cards?

And what is 'force'? can't find that in the BRB either (because I am stoopid? :-))

The chart is not in the BRB. There is nothing in the BRB saying that certain factions have access to certain disciplines.
That is why we have to wait for FAQs, to let us know which characters get what (daemonology being a confusing exception).

[Just_Me]

I think it is interesting that the focus of this thread has become on the Daemonology discipline as I initially believed that those were the ONLY clear additions. Specifically I followed the interpretation that others have suggested that the wording in the BRB indicated that ALL psykers with the ability to generate powers had the option of generating them from the Daemonology disciplines UNLESS they were specifically denied that permission in the codex (the inherent exceptions being Daemons not having access to Sanctic powers and Grey Knights not having access to the Malific side). As no entry which generates powers has a specific exclusion that would refute this (yet) they all have access. The BRB sets the "baseline" for all rules and we are required to assume that those baselines apply in all places where they WOULD apply unless otherwise specified, similar to the way that the BRB explains the rules for Jump Infantry and we are intended to assume that any codex entry which identifies the unit AS Jump Infantry follow those rules unless specified otherwise.

What I found more puzzling is how the new chart APPEARS to give psykers from some Codexes new access to different disciplines without anything to go on but the chart itself.

[Zaonite]

...wrong thread...

[Lord Asterion]

If Games Workshop don't pounce on this with Erratas early on they are going to lose competitive players in big numbers!



I don't think they'd really care.

[Charon]

Because they never cared about losing money.... right?

[Buddhist_Possum]

I think it is interesting that the focus of this thread has become on the Daemonology discipline as I initially believed that those were the ONLY clear additions. Specifically I followed the interpretation that others have suggested that the wording in the BRB indicated that ALL psykers with the ability to generate powers had the option of generating them from the Daemonology disciplines UNLESS they were specifically denied that permission in the codex (the inherent exceptions being Daemons not having access to Sanctic powers and Grey Knights not having access to the Malific side). As no entry which generates powers has a specific exclusion that would refute this (yet) they all have access. The BRB sets the "baseline" for all rules and we are required to assume that those baselines apply in all places where they WOULD apply unless otherwise specified, similar to the way that the BRB explains the rules for Jump Infantry and we are intended to assume that any codex entry which identifies the unit AS Jump Infantry follow those rules unless specified otherwise.

What I found more puzzling is how the new chart APPEARS to give psykers from some Codexes new access to different disciplines without anything to go on but the chart itself.

I'm in the camp that believes the FAQs will clear things up.
Currently there is nothing stating you have to following the grid in the psyker card deck, there is nothing restricting anyone, except codexes.

The BRB says everyone gets Daemonology, sans Tyranids, and for now that's fine. I believe with the FAQs that will be limited a bit. It doesn't make sense that pink horrors can summon other demons ya know.

It will probably be like I said earlier, certain Psykers will not have a restriction, and others will.

[Caitsidhe]

One would think, at the bare minimum, that Daemons that have a hatred of a certain other type of Daemon wouldn't be able to summon them. :D

[Eldar_Atog]

I'm just saying, have you read Codex: Daemons of Chaos? There's no single unit in the entire book who has access to all the disciplines that are theoretically available to "Daemons." Not a single one. I think that this is worth considering. When it's obvious to everyone that the Daemon codex will be stupid if everyone gets Daemonology, why isn't anyone considering the possibility that GW will take a lighter touch?

Yes, I have read the Demons of Chaos since I have a Tzeentch demons allied detachment for my 1K Sons.

My understanding of the rule is that Demonology is now an universal school. If a unit has the psyker rule, they get the Demonology school (excluding Tyranids). The psyker then gets access to other schools based on codex rules.

Few of us are considering that GW will take a lighter touch because that would break their pattern. GW's stance is that they are a modeling company and not a game company. Game balance has never been a high priority. We all agree that the Demon codex will become the stupid good book if everyone gets Demonology. It's just that most of us don't believe GW will care about game balance. The Unbound rules make that perfectly clear.

[Harley]

Sorry if it's a bit daft but can anyone explain how GK Libby powers work now?

Can they still buy 6 powers despite only being Mastery 2? Even so, aren't most of the GK powers broken now that they specifically say "Is used at the beginning of the movement phase" yet the Psychic Phase now occurs AFTER the Movement phase...?

Or do they have to roll for powers from the BRB tables like everyone else, hoping to get a good roll on Daemonology?

Thanks.

[Caitsidhe]

Faqs up!

[StraightSilver]

Hmm, well I was of the opinion that if psykers had fixed powers that's what they got, but having now seen the chart in the new psychic cards I am not so sure.

Doesn't really make sense, so I do think a FAQ is required.

But if everybody has access to Daemonology I will be sitting 3 Blood Angels Librarian Dreads at the back of the board with 3 Tech Marines and let them summon away..... all those perils of the warp tests won't bother me, I just lose a hull point and then the Tech marine puts it back on again... :)

Edit: Is there a link for the FAQ?

[Caitsidhe]

FAQS: http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

[Lord Asterion]

Also its officiall 7th edition, first i've seen that

[Caitsidhe]

And to answer the obvious question, ANY Psyker can cast Daemonology. :D

- - - Updated - - -

<laughs> And as I expected, they have not answered MOST of the questions people have been asking.

[Eldar_Atog]

And to answer the obvious question, ANY Psyker can cast Daemonology. :D

- - - Updated - - -

<laughs> And as I expected, they have not answered MOST of the questions people have been asking.

That's GW habit of playing hard to get....

[StraightSilver]

Ha ha awesome!! :)

Stupid, really stupid, but awesome... :)

Psychic Dreadnoughts a go go!!

[Charon]

Wow... they did not even touch a single item or special rule which got invalidated or broken due to psychic changes.

[Caitsidhe]

Wow... they did not even touch a single item or special rule which got invalidated or broken due to psychic changes.

That is just how they roll apparently. :D

[Lord Asterion]

Wow... they did not even touch a single item or special rule which got invalidated or broken due to psychic changes.

yes they did, the ork ones for example.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed. This is going to be... rough.

Man... I really wanted Daemons to be fun.

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed. This is going to be... rough.

Man... I really wanted Daemons to be fun.

I "hoped" you would be right EP, but I "knew" you would be wrong. Your assumption was based on trying to balance and make the game work. Games Workshop's design is entirely based on trying to move Daemon models. :D If you base your assumptions on greed and motive that has nothing to do with the game itself, you will be right more often than you are wrong.

[ElectricPaladin]

One thing worth noting: in neither of the two FAQs that I've read (Daemons and Blood Angels) have I seen any magenta writing. Maybe these are lame stopgap FAQs and better FAQs are forthcoming?

[DarkLink]

Same here. (Edit @caitsithe)

[Harley]

Wow @ the GreyKnight FAQ. They changed so much, it's like a new army. No more Summoning, period, Warp Stabilization fields gone, DeepStrike protection from Strike Squads gone, Librarians severely nerfed. Aegis and Reinforced Aegis completely changed... Let's face it, Banishment is a joke. Plasma syphon is now up to date. Time to relearn how to play this army.

Important note, GK squads of Mastery Level 1 get WC3 powers like Banishment. Seems it's intended that psykers no longer have limits based on ML.

[DarkLink]

Well, librarians always swapped for divination anyways, so really it's just the loss of warp quake. Losing holocaust and sanctified flame makes me sad, but they never actually did anything.

[Harley]

Gk Librarians had tons of good codex powers though. Str 6 Initiative 10 Terminators with 2d6 armor pen power weapons were great.

My friend is telling me now his Nobz can get buffed by a Weirdboy with Daemonology: "So, a base Nob has 5 attacks on the charge: 3 Base, +1 for 2CCWs, +1 for Charge. FC gives +1 Str, Hammer hand gives +2 Str... base Str of 4. On the Charge this would mean 5 attacks at S7"

[DarkLink]

Divination was still better. And now that you can use telepathy...

[Harley]

I'm not sure how or if I'll be running a Librarian now... but the Dreadknight is certainly hit hard by this FAQ. No more bonus attack with Sword, Str10 or rerolls to hit if using Fist?

[Wildcard]

Harley, where do you get that the Nemesis DreadKnight stuff, cannot find anything you say on the FAQ..

[DarkLink]

The old faq was where it said all that stuff, but check to see if the new combat rules cover all that.

[Peter Hoff]

What I don't get is I know from the list of who gets what pyscic powers tyranids aren't on it. I understand that as from the codex it says we must take codex powers but under demonology in the rule book it says tyranid pyskers can't use it but under santic and malefic powers this is not mentioned. Witch led me to believe tyranids could take them like other pyskers but perils on any double so why mention this if we can only have codex powers.