How excited are you with 7th edition the way it turned out?

[Defenestratus]

So now we have 7th. People are picking it up today and we're getting a solid idea of whats in store. Now that we know what the content as a whole is of the book, just how excited are you overall about this new edition? Are you chomping at the bit to make your first unbound list, or are you tooling up your battleforged psyker battalion to own the new phase of the game?

Or are you like me who canceled his pre-order now that nothing you hoped to come true actually did?

Bonus question: Which false rumored change did you really wish made it into the new edition?

For me its the Ignores Cover = -2 to cover saves. Ignores cover as a mechanic breaks the game and forces me to take units that I really don't want to take in order to survive my opponents' alpha strike.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm torn between consolidating into combat, which would have seriously helped my Blood Angels 'dex army use combat as a serious strategy, rather than a dirty trick to play on occasion, and the rumored Ignores Cover change that you mentioned.

And no, I'm not canceling my order... because I love the new psychic phase. When I go to my FLGS to pick up my rulebooks, I'm also trading away my Eldar to pick up some Tzeentch Daemons to rock the super-powered psychic and summoning army!

- - - Updated - - -

So, I suppose my answer would be 3.5. Not a lot has changed. Most of the old problems are still there. But at the same time, there are some really interesting changes that I'm looking forward to playing with. In the interests of positivity, I'm going to round that up to a 4.

[YorkNecromancer]

I honestly don't see any difference. I was all set to purchase the new books, then just thought: "Why?"

I've got every current codex (looking forwards to them being obsolete quicker than usual too :( ), so I don't need new pics of miniatures. Not that I need pics of minis anyway.
I've got 4th through 6th edition, so I don't need the fluff.
I'll wait until the Macragge/Black Reach/Dark Vengeance/Whatever it's called is released and pick up the rules then. Honestly can't be bothered paying top dollar for a game book that'll be obsolete in two years. Even if it's not, I feel a little like GW burned me with 6th lasting so briefly (relatively speaking), and while I'm sure 7th will be lovely, I don't think it'll be lovely enough. Not right now.

The one thing I do like is that Nidzilla suddenly became way more viable with Unbound - even if it's sub par, fielding my all Tyranid MC's/no pissant little Termagant list will be SPECTACULAR to look at.

[White Tiger88]

Doesn't really make me excited since people will just ***** more about me having demons.........So i am selling them all -_- sick of listening to whiners! If they want to whine they can whine as a Primarch smacks them in the face well i ask "Would you rather have Bel'kor back?"

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I'm not sure how to feel.
I'm dead excited to get stuck in, but out of a job so can't afford new rules.
I've been brimming with new ideas, but can't afford new models.
And I can't help but feel that the new objectives system will really change the way we play, so that's exciting too.
I'm going with a 4, but I never really had any issues with 6th anyway.

[Charon]

The rumors sounded way better than the actual rules.
The way the PSIphase was announced it sounded really cool. Turned out to be the same in a different package with certain schools beiing obviously superior.
Melee is still a "noobtrap" (looks cool on paper, gets obliterated on table)
Many items and rules are broken now and will need extensive errata/faq which I dont think we will see anytime soon.

[ElectricPaladin]

The way the PSIphase was announced it sounded really cool. Turned out to be the same in a different package with certain schools beiing obviously superior.

I disagree. I think that the psychic phase will be more of the same if you use your old army list, but if you are willing to make a new army list, or explore some new tactics, it will be possible to explore it more completely. The daemons summoning daemons summoning daemons list could turn out to be powerful and fun to play. Armies that can bring psykers who are also powerful and durable units in other ways will have a distinct advantage. Of course, it remains to be seen what new codices will include as they are updated to match the new rules set.

[Joe Fixit]

I'm just a bit miffed at having a new edition so early after 6th. GWs always been a money making business but this just feels too much of a money grab. More so than usual. I except its a business but after only recently purchasing a digital copy of the rules just before rumours started circulating of a new edition I'm not overly impressed. Rage quitting is a bit extreme but I'm more and more feeling inclined towards other games, especially those that offer free rule sets as opposed to charging for them.

[George Labour]

Trundling through the book now and so far I like the tweaks they did.

The fact that pinning/ going to ground now prevents overwatch is a change I felt should have been there in the first place and should make some things easier for players who know how to get a bit of synergy from their shooting and assaulting.

Super heavies in the core set and the slight toning down of Destroyer grade damage are also going to be interesting as I get more involved in playing my Imperial Knights. You migth also see more non D packing super heavies used now that they don't give up Victory points when damaged. Unless I'm missing something about Lords of War that references the Escalation book's rules instead of merely pointing out that it's the book with the datasheets you need.

Finally as I'm growing more fond of laying Imperial Knights I'm enjoying the changes to the army building methods. Though right now I'm not sure if a knight army counts as unbound at all times due to its lack of battlefield roles preventing it from becoming part of a detachment, or if they count as a detachment and i can take BOTH combined arms, AND allied detachments alongside them for their bonuses. I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm aware I could be wrong.

The psychic phase and changes to the way powers are used should be interesting to use, and will make even basic psykers slightly more versatile. For example now Eldar Warlocks will have a mixture of powers instead of almost all of them defaulting to Conceal/reveal. Whereas Farseers can now get a potential FIVE powers to sling around the field.

The 'buff' to force weapons may also prove rather interesting when combined with things like Guard platoons or other large units of troops.

Oh and finally..I realized you could now do a 'legal' army consisting of Santa WAAAGHH(warboss), and his pointy eared helpers in weird outfits (Harlequins).

[Souba]

i like that psykers still can only cast as many powers as they have psychic mastery levels. some chars would be overkill then.

eldar jetbikes lost the 2d6 movement in the assault phase if they decide to turboboost in the shooting phase.

that conjured units score is a bit heavy... especially that summoned chaos daemons get the icon, instrument and champion upgrade for free if you got the model for it.

focused witchfires are now way more reliable. wich makes some of them real nice now.

beam powers no longer lose strength when passing models. also nice.

[mocapman]

The psychic phase and changes to the way powers are used should be interesting to use, and will make even basic psykers slightly more versatile. For example now Eldar Warlocks will have a mixture of powers instead of almost all of them defaulting to Conceal/reveal. Whereas Farseers can now get a potential FIVE powers to sling around the field.



How can they get 5 powers?

[Melon-neko]

Think I'm in the 3.5 range as well. I like the book. It seems well written for once with clean and concise rules (for the most part) A lot of the ambiguities of 6th edition were fixed.

I had hoped to get a bit more help for assault armies. Pinned units not being able to overwatch and a -2 to range instead of 3d6 takes the 2 lowest is helpful, but probably not enough. I did not want consolidating into h2h. I already played that edition and it was horrible =[

I like the psychic phase but I do not really like the method of casting powers (Roll a bunch of dice and hope for 4's and 5's).

I like that D weapons were toned down. They might be balanced now. maybe...sorta.

I like that everything scores. It actually weakens some of the power lists I think (I'm not a tournament player), but you can't just focus on killing the troops to win and you can win without troops. For example, helldrake spam might not work so well when the troops are either not their or stay in their vehicles while scoring....I've never actually face a hell drake either so I dunno =D

I really like the FMC's not being able to charge after changing flight modes. I like assault, but I didn't like FMC spam

I am ambivalent towards Jink changes. On the one hand, my DE can jink on the first turn if they go second so are harder to shoot down. On the other hand, it already takes me about 4 dark lance shots to actually hurt (not destroy, just glance ^_^)a vehicle, if I have to snap shot too i might as well not bother.

[Throne Agent]

How can they get 5 powers?

If you manifest all the other powers from a discipline, all of your pskyers get the Primaris power for free, only for Battle Forged Armies.

[George Labour]

How can they get 5 powers?

By using the new psychic focus rule you can now get the primaris power for 'free' if you take all your other powers from the same discipline.

Oh and now the force power granted by being equipped with a force weapon affects an entire unit. 0.0

[mocapman]

By using the new psychic focus rule you can now get the primaris power for 'free' if you take all your other powers from the same discipline.


But Farseers are level 3 not 4. That means they can roll for 3 and, if on the same table, take the primaris for a total of 4 powers... Unless I am missing something

[Caitsidhe]

But Farseers are level 3 not 4. That means they can roll for 3 and, if on the same table, take the primaris for a total of 4 powers... Unless I am missing something

So if I put a Sorcerer in a combat unit you are saying if activated all the units weapons will cause death? I'll have to read all that very carefully again.

[mocapman]

i think you quoted the wrong person Caitsidhe ;)

and yes, but only if they are force weapons.

[Mr Mystery]

So if I put a Sorcerer in a combat unit you are saying if activated all the units weapons will cause death? I'll have to read all that very carefully again.

Has to be Weapons with 'Force'.

So you could have two Sorcerors from HQ, and bung them in a unit of Thousand Sons and their own unit champion Sorcerer. Use the Sorceror Lords to poop out the nasties, and the unit champion Sorceror to activate all the Force Weapons in that unit.

[Big_jon]

They made some intelligent alteration's, while adding a boatload of BS through the way you can build armies now. They also failed to address 2/3rds of my issues with 6th mainly involving assault.

I'm fairly disappointed overall, but hey, atleast they fixed smash and made my Contemptor dreadnoughts a little more viable.

[mocapman]

I'm still trying to work out how Farseers can now get 5 powers...

[LTKlaudius]

7th is great, from the way they made monster creatures much less out of control with 9 smash attacks from belakor, to toning down D weapons, its all a balanced approach while leaving some crazy for flavor.
I think they did a fantastic job.
the new psychic risk vs reward, is a way better way to play it. you dont get 99% of your spells going off, and if you roll more dice you are more likely to perils.

this edition will be much better in tournament play.

[Browntj007]

I'm still trying to work out how Farseers can now get 5 powers...

1 per level
1 bonus for focus
1 "force" power if a force weapon is taken

Farseer: 3+1+1 =5

That's the only way I can figure it...what counts as a force weapons for Eldar, though?

[George Labour]

But Farseers are level 3 not 4. That means they can roll for 3 and, if on the same table, take the primaris for a total of 4 powers... Unless I am missing something

maths is hard, and I didn't have my Eldar codex on hand when I originally wrote that. XD

Still, plus 1 powers means now warlocks will be using abilities other than Conceal/reveal outside of seer councils.

[Vangrail]

Personally i really like the unbound rules i kinda don't like how you have agree on using it. Its a form of list building and not everyone is going to break the game with it. There are people that will ruin unbound rules and we will only hear about them.
Unbound lists i would like to see:
1. first company marines.
2. Nid zilla armies that are not all flying.
3. The green tide orks nobz and boys everywhere.
4. The crimson fists all sternguard and pedro.
I was also really hoping for the snap firing is -2 bs and the consolidating into combats.

[ElectricPaladin]

1 per level
1 bonus for focus
1 "force" power if a force weapon is taken

Farseer: 3+1+1 =5

That's the only way I can figure it...what counts as a force weapons for Eldar, though?

Eldar don't have Force weapons. At least, they didn't when I played Eldar.

[KR3LL]

My Big 6th edition rulebook is like new. I have vengeance mini rulebook, and I won the hardback mini rulebook in a painting completion. I also have Escalation. I have all the psyhic cards for the armies I play.

With so little changed in 7th edition...while nullifying my collection of 6th edition books/cards, it really burns me. Would not surprise me if a new Apoc book came out later this year.

I was all for buying the 7th edition rulebook this morning. The more I saw that little actually changed...the less I wanted to buy. I am waiting on the box that is to be released in a few months.

[Harley]

This edition essentially was just a buff for Daemons, added the psychic phase and changed the allie system. That's it.

I refuse to pay for such an insignificant change. Won't be buying the new BRB.

[ElectricPaladin]

This edition essentially was just a buff for Daemons, added the psychic phase and changed the allie system. That's it.

I refuse to pay for such an insignificant change. Won't be buying the new BRB.

You're leaving out a new army organization option, new missions, new ways to score victory points, and significant alterations to shooting and terrain.

[Harley]

You're leaving out a new army organization option, new missions, new ways to score victory points, and significant alterations to shooting and terrain.

So, essentially new missions and FoC options? Umm, they could have just released a new mission book. Wait... they do that all the time. Unbound is pointless. If I have to ask my opponent to if I can play unbound I might as well just ask to play my own house ruled version of the game.

As for terrain I honestly haven't gotten a chance to check that out yet.

[ElectricPaladin]

Eh... in my mind, there are already a lot of things you need to talk about with an opponent. The last time I was able to play a game without first talking about degree of competitiveness, hardness of the lists, not playing a mission my opponent particularly doesn't like, and so on, was when I was playing in a campaign where the organizer had made the parameters clear. In any and every other game I have had to have at least a short conversation about what sort of game we are settling in to play.

So now there's a new option. That's worth something in my mind.

[mocapman]

maths is hard, and I didn't have my Eldar codex on hand when I originally wrote that. XD

Still, plus 1 powers means now warlocks will be using abilities other than Conceal/reveal outside of seer councils.

:) All is forgiven George. I just thought I was missing a trick. It's very handy to have the additional power yes. Looking forward to trying out some different tactics with warlocks.

[daboarder]

Eldar don't have Force weapons. At least, they didn't when I played Eldar.

eldrad has one

[ElectricPaladin]

eldrad has one

Aha! Thanks.

[darthken]

being able to consoladate into combat was biggest let down, My dark eldar still get to stand their and get shot to pieces, it's not like it would have been a game breaker


buying the new edition after only 2 years. ROFL not a chance

[skeletoro]

i like that psykers still can only cast as many powers as they have psychic mastery levels. some chars would be overkill then.



Is this right? Can i get a confirmation? I'd already asked about this a day or two ago and was told that MLs do not in and of themselves limit how many spells a psyker can cast (just that they can only attempt each power they know once per phase and are limited by available dice in pool). Was the other guy mistaken?

[Melon-neko]

This is true. Page 22 First paragraph of the second column "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

[skeletoro]

This is true. Page 22 First paragraph of the second column "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

thanks for the reply and quote. Sorry if i seem a bit nitpicky now, but does the book then go on to explain specifically how it depends on it? I mean, it's depend on it (albeit in part and. Indirectly) by virtue of the power dice rolls taking mastery level as a parameter.

presumably there's an example or something following the quoted text to make it clear? Something like "for instance, chief librarian tigurius is a mastery level 3 psyker, so he may only attempt to manifest up to three psychic powers per phase). Something like that?

[Melon-neko]

thanks for the reply and quote. Sorry if i seem a bit nitpicky now, but does the book then go on to explain specifically how it depends on it? I mean, it's depend on it (albeit in part and. Indirectly) by virtue of the power dice rolls taking mastery level as a parameter.

presumably there's an example or something following the quoted text to make it clear? Something like "for instance, chief librarian tigurius is a mastery level 3 psyker, so he may only attempt to manifest up to three psychic powers per phase). Something like that?

Nah, nitpicking is good. So actually, there is not an example. The only restriction I can find is that a psyker can't cast the same power twice. So...i guess it's not true after all. >.> Unless I missed something else. =\

I'm sure that is going to cause a lot of arguments ^^

[Magos Bellum]

Well, the number of psychic powers a psyker has is based on the psyker's mastery level (usually ML + 1, or + 2 with a force weapon), so the number of powers that can be cast is based on the mastery level, just not equal to it.

[skeletoro]

Right, it's often ML+2. ML1 rune priests can be up to ML+3 (they get 2, force, mastery). Njal knows all 7 codex powers as well.

They could easily have just forgotten to explicitly state it, but maybe they didn't mean for a hard limit beyond powers known (which is typically derived from ML). Ugh. Gimmie FAQ!

[silashand]

I think it's mixed with a few cleared up rules and some major **** ups. A standard, non-cheesed out drop pod list with 6 troop choices can dump *18* scoring units that can't be contested except by other battle forged troop choices (12 Combat Squads and 6 pods). WTF were they thinking???

Also, those armies with very few psykers will never get off a single power against even mild GK or Tzeentch daemons. I pointed out my normal, fairly tame 2000pt GK list and I ended up with 18+d6 dice to cast/dispel with. If I can't get enough 6's to stop pretty much everything from my opponent then something is wrong. This new mechanism is just flat out broken at the higher levels.

Finally, while I like the concept of summoning daemons, I have a fairly benign Tzeentch army (no screamerstar, etc.) and at 2000 pts I can summon about 1000-1500 extra points worth of additional daemons within the first half of a game assuming a relatively decent spread of powers from the new Malefic discipline. Who in their right mind wants to play against that?

So while I think some of the clarifications were fine, the new rules they introduced were clearly not playtested at all. Even a modicum of actual testing would have revealed the above can happen even with relatively fluffy armies. Plus, they still didn't do a d*mn thing about the idiocy that is the 2++ rerollable issue. Honestly, I don't think they even care about the game anymore. Except for the few clarifications I'd rather play 6th.

[Vangrail]

Alot did change with this book. Its just wasn't as changing as 5th to 6th. Its happened before and its more changes then a new phase and new ways to build an army. Seriously there are alot of tweaks here and there. So folks need to stop saying it changed very little. You cannot expect giant changes every book.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think that the spread of results we are seeing in the poll is very interesting. Both 1 and 5 (absolutely pleased or ragequit angry) are still in the single digits, but the distributing is not peaking at 3 (completely indifferent). Instead, it is peaking at both 4 (quite excited) and 2 (moderately displeased). This is a... curious reaction. Not at all what I'd expected.

[skeletoro]

I think that the spread of results we are seeing in the poll is very interesting. Both 1 and 5 (absolutely pleased or ragequit angry) are still in the single digits, but the distributing is not peaking at 3 (completely indifferent). Instead, it is peaking at both 4 (quite excited) and 2 (moderately displeased). This is a... curious reaction. Not at all what I'd expected.

Perhaps it's because most people are relatively ambivalent. Even if they feel predominantly positive or negative, that doesn't mean they don't see the other side of the coin. Option 3 is 'indifferent' rather than 'ambivalent/unsure/torn'. Presumably people who are voting are invested in 7e. So 'indifferent' may not describe a lot of voters' attitudes, even though many may be somewhat on the fence.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think it's mixed with a few cleared up rules and some major **** ups. A standard, non-cheesed out drop pod list with 6 troop choices can dump *18* scoring units that can't be contested except by other battle forged troop choices (12 Combat Squads and 6 pods). WTF were they thinking???

Also, those armies with very few psykers will never get off a single power against even mild GK or Tzeentch daemons. I pointed out my normal, fairly tame 2000pt GK list and I ended up with 18+d6 dice to cast/dispel with. If I can't get enough 6's to stop pretty much everything from my opponent then something is wrong. This new mechanism is just flat out broken at the higher levels.

Finally, while I like the concept of summoning daemons, I have a fairly benign Tzeentch army (no screamerstar, etc.) and at 2000 pts I can summon about 1000-1500 extra points worth of additional daemons within the first half of a game assuming a relatively decent spread of powers from the new Malefic discipline. Who in their right mind wants to play against that?

So while I think some of the clarifications were fine, the new rules they introduced were clearly not playtested at all. Even a modicum of actual testing would have revealed the above can happen even with relatively fluffy armies. Plus, they still didn't do a d*mn thing about the idiocy that is the 2++ rerollable issue. Honestly, I don't think they even care about the game anymore. Except for the few clarifications I'd rather play 6th.

So, here's the thing.

First of all, if I could get a butt-genie to grant me one wish, it would be to end all ad-hominem attacks on GW on this forum. Can we please for the love of the Throne stop pretending that we know what happens at GW headquarters and basing our critiques on that. Seriously, you don't know if they playtested. I don't know if they playtested. The only people who know if they playtested are currently under NDAs. There are many ways you can express your displeasure that constitute actual, substantive criticisms without pretending to have information that you don't.

*Ahem*

Moving on.

I don't really see how this is different from any other unbalanced build. If my Necron opponent brings three Necron Lords with mindshackle scarabs and joins them to all three of his midfield shooting units, I am all but completely shut down in the assault phase. Between my opponent's general durability and his all-but-automatic ability to turn my most powerful model against the rest of the unit, there is no way I can win. Maybe it isn't possible for him to protect all his units, but if his midfield shooting units are protected, what are my chances of getting behind him and assaulting his less protected backfield units?

Anyway, the point is that this build - not even a particularly crazy or inefficient build - can all but shut down an opponent's ability to be successful in a given phase.

So, the fact is that this is hardly something new to the game. If you really want to be good at the psychic phase, you are going to need to play a faction that has a lot of mastery levels. I like magic, and I think that dominating the psychic phase would be fun... so I've gone and picked up Tzeentch Daemons. It's ridiculous to think that every army can or should succeed in any given phase. Blood Angels, Orks, and 'Nids will probably always dominate the assault phase. Tau and Guard will dominate shooting. Grey Knights and Tzeentch Daemons will dominate psychics. That's just the way the game is, the way it's always been, and likely always will be - I don't see how you're pointing out anything new.

[White Tiger88]

I am in love with 7th it makes the list i had built for 6th Funny as hell to build\play & makes this thing the funniest tank in the game.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Legion_Vehicles/TYPHON_HEAVY_SIEGE_TANK.html


Bye Bye Buildings LOL!

[monkeyking118]

Overall pretty happy. Like the new psychic phase, lile the books overall and the wording on rules has been improved. Also, as I have no real interest in tournaments, I'm pretty happy with the freedom I get when choosing armies. I like unbound, not because I can field stupid armies, but because I can set new challenges for myself and take interesting armies. It also adds a new challenge of restraint when faced with the possibility of taking whatever the hell I want! Only minor niggles are vector strike and my current inability to work out whether characters still have precision shot / strike.

[Andrew Thomas]

A bit miffed that the Concusive rumour was false, but I can deal with it. Wish they'd make Interceptor available to non-Tau players, though.

Also, Stronghold unit upgrades got worse, due to the Skyfire nerf.

[chicop76]

Doesn't really make me excited since people will just ***** more about me having demons.........So i am selling them all -_- sick of listening to whiners! If they want to whine they can whine as a Primarch smacks them in the face well i ask "Would you rather have Bel'kor back?"

Ummm. You can play with Bel'kor.I'll.play my daemons since.I.been playing.them.when they got.a.40k.codex. I have a lot.of.metal.models.Which shows.I.didn't.just.jump.on the band.wagon.

[Caitsidhe]

I might use Be'lakor simpy because I have a DP model already with a Sword and a sweet paint job. I'll use him until they fix Invisibility at least, and perhaps beyond. Basically Invisibility is broken on purpose so they can move data slates for him.

[chicop76]

I might use Be'lakor simpy because I have a DP model already with a Sword and a sweet paint job. I'll use him until they fix Invisibility at least, and perhaps beyond. Basically Invisibility is broken on purpose so they can move data slates for him.

To.drop.a mc.out the.sky you need.to.wound it. I foresee.this.guy will.get.love. invisibility love all.over.is.a.no.brainer.

[silashand]

To.drop.a mc.out the.sky you need.to.wound it. I foresee.this.guy will.get.love. invisibility love all.over.is.a.no.brainer.

Stop with the excess periods please. It is annoying and makes people (I suspect it's not just me anyway) not want to read your posts.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's kind of fun, like a robot.

I'm pleased with 7th so far, voted #4.

One of the reasons is that both my brother and I find we suffer from bouncing around from one project to the next without finishing one or the other - he's working on Astra Militarum, now he's doing more of his Raven Guard. I started Dark Eldar after losing enthusiasm for my Ulthwe Eldar. But now - what does it matter whether we've got an HQ painted up or not, or if we only have a few units of a few armies rather than a full collection of one? Unbound, baby. Play as you collect.

[Wolfshade]

Or an old timey telegram.

My book should be arriving any day now, every time the post comes I get excited.

[Eldar_Atog]

First of all, if I could get a butt-genie to grant me one wish, it would be to end all ad-hominem attacks on GW on this forum. Can we please for the love of the Throne stop pretending that we know what happens at GW headquarters and basing our critiques on that. Seriously, you don't know if they playtested. I don't know if they playtested. The only people who know if they playtested are currently under NDAs. There are many ways you can express your displeasure that constitute actual, substantive criticisms without pretending to have information that you don't.


*shrug*
And my wish would be to strip away the false optimism on this forum and have people spit out the kool-aid they keep guzzling. It always surprises me how some people need everyone to be optimistic around here. We are talking about a war game set in a dystopian future where humanity has been reduced to it's most craven aspect. Love, happiness, goodwill, peace do not exist and humanity has become much like the KKK.

This kind of thing is going to be a big draw to pessimists. You can kick against the pricks as much as you want. You are only going to bloody up your shins....

As for myself, I am dissapointed with the new rules. You can see from just glancing through the book that they were put together in a haphazard manner. No thought of game balance at all. The summoning spells insure that this edition is going to be a mess. When I first heard of the psyker phase, I was actually kind of excited. I hoped that they would finally simplify some of the sillier issues like having some spells thrown at the start of turn and others during the shooting phase. Instead, it has become harder to throw a simple spell. The odds are far greater for a spell failure and a perils result... plus my opponent faces no risk in throwing all his dice against my own spell. They should run the same risk to deny as I do to cast.

As for my play group, most of us are planning on moving to fantasy for a little while. We all have small armies we've stashed away for a rainy day and this new edition looks like it qualifies. Perhaps they will fix this mess but I doubt it....

[DarkLink]

Plus, some people do know how much playtesting GW does. It's not much. As I understand it, the game designers are actually pretty low on the totem pole, and their manager will walk in on them playtesting and tell them to wrap it up and start writing the next codex instead of polishing the current one.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Right. They do playtest, they have internal and external playtest groups. But they also are run to a tight schedule, especially these days - like any publishing company, there's a group of managers and editors that exist to make sure every project actually has an end and a release. In the old days, the design studio has much mre control of its own projects, and it turned out not to be so good for business (maybe, and unfortunately either way).

I don't know if codices or even editions have a standard dev time, but I'd expect not. There are some books out there which don't take too long - Space Marines - whereas the Dark Eldar project was being worked on intermittently for several years until they were satisfied they had the right track. That's probably the cause of some of the book disparities. But time spent on one project is time that isn't being spent on others, and they only have a finite amount of man-hours to give. It's tricky.

There's also just the fact of where books come out in the life of an edition. The metagame shifts, designers' ideas too.

There's a lot of factors. Here's a new one: it seems clear to me from White Dwarf coverage that the studio is now more clearly split into Background Writers and Rules Developers, with Phil Kelly, Mat Ward and Jeremy Vetock in the first camp and Jervis, Robin Cruddace and Simon Grant in the latter (not an all-inclusive list). What does this mean? We don't know! But books are now released as written by the whole studio, and it seems they've reorganised things a bit. There's a couple of new names too. I suspect thisis just the sort of necessary change to support their new output levels, and possibly it codifies roles and preferences that already existed. But to my eye, if one group is focusing on rules and another on background, rather than everyone doing everything in a bit of a jumble, that might be a positive step in making sure the right eyes are on the right tasks, and the right amount of time gets dedicated to them. We'll see.

I think my position would be that while I don't like GW as an entity any more than I like any other big company (spoiler: i don't like big companies), I like the people who work on the design end of things in terms of rules and especially miniatures and art. It's a job I'd love to do but know that I probably couldn't. They produce a product I like. I like many of the people who work for them in non-design capacities, too, it's a company which is suffused with a deep love for the product it makes. Unfortunately, GW is a big business and has to - or feels it has to - do things in a certain way, which is why we're saying goodbye to sixth just as we were getting to know it. But this is still the game I've loved since I was ten. If that makes me a kool-aid drinker, then I'll be smashing through the nearest wall.

As a final thought: I can understand the power of initial impressions, and nobody can tell you what to think or spend your own time on - but, seriously now, the rulebook's been out for six days and people are writing it off? Well, to each their own.

[Eldar_Atog]

But this is still the game I've loved since I was ten. If that makes me a kool-aid drinker, then I'll be smashing through the nearest wall.

As a final thought: I can understand the power of initial impressions, and nobody can tell you what to think or spend your own time on - but, seriously now, the rulebook's been out for six days and people are writing it off? Well, to each their own.

No, a kool-aid drinker is the person that tries to push their optimism on other people or treats a person with a pessimistic mind set as unhealthy. You presented a very nice argument and said several things I agree with.

I can't speak for anyone else but the reason I am willing to write this whole edition off.. or at least take a breather for a few months is this: I don't like the idea of being punished for taking a psyker. If I pay the points for something, I want a reasonable chance of success with it. To get that with the new edition, you'll probably need to roll 2 dice for each warp charge. Then I have to worry about a perils roll (4 dice have a significant chance). Then my opponent who invested nothing in psykers has a reasonable chance of denying the spell... at no risk to himself. They should face the same risk of a perils result as myself.

It would be kind of like watching a squad of gretchin win a close combat/shooting war against against your uber squad. If it happened over and over, it would take the fun out of the game.

[ElectricPaladin]

I can't speak for anyone else but the reason I am willing to write this whole edition off.. or at least take a breather for a few months is this: I don't like the idea of being punished for taking a psyker...

See, I don't think it works like that. If you are willing to play the odds, manage the risks, and use the right powers at the right time, it can totally pay off. Fantasy's magic system works similarly, and you aren't punished for taking a mage - in fact, it's basically a necessity!

I haven't had a game of 7th yet. I'm hoping to catch one this weekend. I'll report back about how it played once I've tried it out.

[Charon]

Agree much with Eldar_Atog here.
I was very exited about the PSI phase. And got really disappointed. While I like to bring psykers, I really dont want to spam them. And the only way to get your point investment to work is, well... spamming more of them. Bringing a single ML3 psyker is a waste of points as you will ever only cast a single power reliably - before deny the witch with no psykers. Not worth the investment, no tactical decisions involved. So the only decision is: do I want to spam them or do I leave them at home?
Also my DE will get shelved until they get a new codex. Melee is basically still dead and pure gunlines are still well. There was not a single issue tackled and in my opinion it just got worse for armies/playstyles that where not top notch in the first place.


See, I don't think it works like that. If you are willing to play the odds, manage the risks, and use the right powers at the right time, it can totally pay off. Fantasy's magic system works similarly, and you aren't punished for taking a mage - in fact, it's basically a necessity!

That is because fantasy emplays 2 mechanics that 40k does not. There is a maximum of dice and magic powers are stupidly powerful. If you have a single Farseer (without seerstar shenannigans, just a plain lvl 3 and maybe 2 lvl 1 warlocks) you create 4 powers. One lets you reroll your "to hit" another lets you reroll your saves and the other two are a witchfire which kills off one model at 18" and a power that basically suicides your psyker and prevents him from casting another spell ever again.
There is no big "counterplay" or "use the right powers at the right time". You just have 2 useful powers and cant cast both reliably. So its just you try and I try to deny. End of phase. Unless you start to spam psykers. But there is also no big "counterplay" as you wont have enough dice to stop keypowers. Unless you spam psykers...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I will admit I was very surprised there's no dice cap. In most situations it probably won't come up - most armies will have one or two psykers in 1500-2000 or so - barring the couple of armies that are psychic out the wazoo. It's definitely there to be abused if people want to, though, and I think that's odd.

Then again, we'll see how new codices handle things. We haven't had a psychic phase since 2nd ed - I expect psychic powers and psychic defence are both going to feature heavily in coming editions.

Charon: on Dark Eldar, yeah - I give the rumours of a new book in the next couple of months a lot of credence because they definitely need one now.

[ElectricPaladin]

Charon: on Dark Eldar, yeah - I give the rumours of a new book in the next couple of months a lot of credence because they definitely need one now.

I think the boys in red need it more... but rumor has it we're getting it in August.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah. I don't think it's a coincidence at all that most of the books which are looking a bit sad in 7th are the ones we're supposed to be getting before the end of the year.

[The Sovereign]

I like everything except how the new psychic phase was handled. I like the idea of condensing all psychic activity to a phase, but I like the old way psykers manifested powers with a simple leadership test.

[Power Klawz]

I'm actually digging the new psychic phase, a bit more strategy to it than just spamming unit buffs uncontested. Still potent, but after watching my DA libby go supernova and take 3 dudes with him I'm digging the risk/reward angle. Biomancy rules now, laugh maniacally as your sorcerer force-lightnings terminators into puddles before flexing his warp muscles and smashing whats left of them in an assault.

[DarkLink]

I like everything except how the new psychic phase was handled. I like the idea of condensing all psychic activity to a phase, but I like the old way psykers manifested powers with a simple leadership test.

I agree. Now, the old way was too reliable, but I think a better way of handling that was to allow you to deny all powers within a certain range rather than only those that targeted you. If your Librarian could block Fortune on a 5+ and Protect and Shrouded on a 4+ and so on, it would have made things much more reasonable. The current psychic phase is a mess.

Psychic Focus is a nice touch, but I don't think random psychic powers should have been a thing in the first place.

[Power Klawz]

I think the format of the new psychic phase is in the right direction, I do think that you should be able to use your psychers to contest non-targeted abilities though. It should have a range limit and whatnot, but if your psycher is in range of the intended recipient of the buff he should be able to work against it. Since unit buffs are still the most powerful psychic powers it doesn't make sense that they are also the hardest to contest.

[Mr Mystery]

I like change. Change is good.

7th Edition hasn't affected my Necrons much (if anything, it just made my vehicles harder to drop), but it should have shaken things up for my opponents, which is nice.

[Charon]

I like change. Change is good.

7th Edition hasn't affected my Necrons much (if anything, it just made my vehicles harder to drop), but it should have shaken things up for my opponents, which is nice.

Sorry that makes no sense :D
I like change -> my necrons havent changed -> but some armies got worse -> change is good (for me)

[Mr Mystery]

Got psychics to worry about more now. My fliers took an arguable hit, in that jinking leaves me down to Snap Fire (which means I can't use my Deathray when jinking, but then snap shots don't really bother twinlinked Tesla all that much).

All change is good. Change drives development :)

[Charon]

You got psychics to worry LESS now, as there are way less spells in an average game then before. Your fliers did not take an hit as jinking ALWAYS caused them to snapfire on the following turn, this rule is new on SKIMMERS.

[DarkLink]

It's a tradeoff. You'll get fewer powers off, but some of those powers are straight broken.

[Charon]

Depends on the powers you may chose and the number of psykers.
A single ML2 Librarian wont get much done, even when he gets one or two broken powers. An eldar army without a seer council will also get less done and powers stay the same.

[DarkLink]

That's 6th ed thinking, though. Just because you may have to tweak your list to do it doesn't mean you can't massively abuse 7th's psychic phase.

[Charon]

Thats why I wrote "average army" and not psyker spamming or abusive lists ;)

[John Bower]

I would've voted 5; but the nerfs to destroyer weapons just to shove them in a normal game while carrying those same nerfs into Apocalypse where the weapons should be disappointed me. I could've stomached the nerf a bit more had they left the Apoc versions alone and said they were 'lower yield' versions for tactical rather than strategic use.