View Full Version : Units in the penalty box - Strike 3, you're out
Rookie1
08-03-2009, 10:00 AM
Every codex has troops of all kind.
Mandatory squads, like termis or fire dragons for example.
Unfortunately there are some units who are not that bad themselves, but have no place in your army, when you go to war.
Who are these poor guys, who are always benched watching the world from the ice box???
I'll make the start with troops from my Orks and Eldar.
Orks
Flash Gitz: Poor guys. Having changed AP every turn makes them to much of a bargain. Besides who wants to fill heavy support slots with them when you can have battle wagons?
Tank bustas: These guys go crazy when spotting a tank. Hey, I can have CC monsters like Nobs or shooting stars (at least for orks, lol) like Lootas instead.
Kommandos: Sadly, the same problem like tank bustas. But they can be fun when combined with Snikrot, entering the table from behind and smashing enemy tanks. Look behind you, you stupid tank commanders.
Burna boys: I know, not competitive, no Pikk-Up for support. But I love IG BBQ. :D
Eldar:
All heavy supports except Fire Prisms: You take 3 Fire Prisms and your 3 heavy supports slots are full. What a pity. Dark Reapers have potential, but fire prisms seem to be better choices all the time.
All storm units: Personally I do not like any of them. Too fragile, to pricey. Uups, they are not unlucky, because I could take them, I would have the place for them. But... no, thanks. :p
What are your unlucky troops?
Black Templar Sword Bretheren in Servo Armour
The models are pretty nice and they have vet skills but what kills it for me arr the weapons options compared to other veteran squads and they are the only squad unable to get into a crusader.
Even a Techmarine can have a crusader as dedicated transport.
Slann
08-03-2009, 10:50 AM
I love sentinals in every way but, they compete with valks and hell hounds , so they usually get benched . ( they should be able to attach to troop squads IMO )
Bluephoenix
08-03-2009, 11:20 AM
tanks.. and I'm an IG player.
they're simply too fragile with the current "always assault on back armor" rules, and are too easy to destroy with a single high-str hit
Blowupologist
08-03-2009, 11:24 AM
I would argue that Kommandos don't deserve to be there because of Snikrot.
You could probably put the entire Tau Codex in the penalty box though.
03bbrevenge
08-03-2009, 11:31 AM
Chaos Space marines:
Possessed yay we have a random ability we may or may not have a use for.
Chaos dreadnoughts lets misbehave 1/3rd of the time
the entire FA section
boogle
08-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Spawn get a poor rep in the CSM Codex, as 03bbrevenge says, Possessed and Dreads are pants as well
Dark Eldar - Scourges
Eldar - Storm Guardians, Support Weapons Batteries
Witch Hunters - Sisters Repentia, Arco Flagellents, Penitent Engines
Tyranids - Spore Mine Clusters, Biovores
Space Marines - Sternguard
IG - Ogryns, Storm Troopers (not a personal one, but the general feeling is they cost too much for what they can do)
Orks - Big Gunz Batteries
Necrons - Pariahs, Wraiths
Rookie1
08-03-2009, 12:09 PM
I would argue that Kommandos don't deserve to be there because of Snikrot.
Kommandos are not that bad, but without Snikrot they get benched.
Infiltrating orks... pfff... what for. *g*
I'm wondering, if you can take Snikrot without Kommandos, I don't think so.
Snikrot is not listed as an independent HQ choice, so you have to buy a Kommando mob to use him.
Finally Kommandos are just the ticket for Snikrot.
Brother Mord
08-03-2009, 12:09 PM
Black Templar Sword Bretheren in Servo Armour
The models are pretty nice and they have vet skills but what kills it for me arr the weapons options compared to other veteran squads and they are the only squad unable to get into a crusader.
Even a Techmarine can have a crusader as dedicated transport.
Buy a Crusader as a Hevy support choice, stick them in the crusader, whats the problem.
I love sword brethren, use them all the time.
Rookie1
08-03-2009, 12:14 PM
Buy a Crusader as a Hevy support choice, stick them in the crusader, whats the problem.
I guess the "problem" is, that the crusader is not a dedicated transport and you have to spend a heavy support choice.
Dunno if you need the support choices for other tanks or whatever.
warpcrafter
08-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.
gold 'orn silvateef
08-03-2009, 12:28 PM
I'm wondering, if you can take Snikrot without Kommandos, I don't think so.
Snikrot is not listed as an independent HQ choice, so you have to buy a Kommando mob to use him.
Finally Kommandos are just the ticket for Snikrot.
My friends and all get to make 1 or 2 special characters to use in our gaming group if they are balanced and agreed upon, so what's mine? The sneakiest sneaka o' Armageddon- Snikrot. I just play him as a lone HQ because the kommandos really don't do it for me either. He also gets the "Throatslitta" special ability which gives him rending on the charge if his initiative is higher and he is behind the squad he is assaulting.
(sorry that I got a little off topic there... back to the point)
Flash Gitz get benched but I do take Burnaz a lot of the time. Deffkoptaz get benched sometimes because they all have rockets equipped (Black Reach box koptaz) and usually cost too much, but they are still fun sometimes!
Loki73
08-03-2009, 12:42 PM
My poor base predator...so much dakka but gets killed so quick. Never use dev squads either waay to expensive in points. Las cannons have disappointed me as well.
My two drop pods..although with the new kit for the Ironclad dred they should see new use.
Voxnovanion
08-03-2009, 12:59 PM
For Witch Hunters (aside from what was already mentioned):
- Death Cult Assassins, they just give away kill points too easily.
@ Brother Mord
Its not that its mir Fluffwise
You have the elitefriends of your marshall and optionwise they cant have a taxi and can oly by bicycles.
I prefer the shoty termies, dreads and techmarine before the sword bretheren in power armour.
Perhaps they are worth the points but i dont like em as they are.
And my heavy support choices are coverd with Preds and a Vind.
Andrew283
08-03-2009, 01:17 PM
Tyranids-Gargoyles and Raveners, left out for my fun spore mines
Rookie1
08-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.
All of them? Wow. Friend of mine collects a plague marines only army and he plays quite good with them.
T5 and FNP for standard troops is not that bad to get benched, but I get your point. ;)
Thiselton
08-03-2009, 01:25 PM
I have never had luck with any Rhinos in my CSM list, they die way too fast no matter what unit is in em, then I"m stuck with a unit of 'zerkers on my table edge that that have to footslog all the way to the other side.
I keep reading about mechanized CSM lists but I never pull them off.
Sigh
Dingareth
08-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.
This guy doesn't think Plague Marines can hold their weight...
Ha...
Haha...
Oh God! Hahahahahaha, oh my God, I never thought I'd see the day!
Warpcrafter, you realize that many people consider them to be the best Troop choice after Nobz?
Emperorsmercy
08-03-2009, 01:54 PM
CSM, Dreadnoughts, unreliable, Raptors, not really that useful
I find Possessed canbe good if given wings, if expensive.
Old_Paladin
08-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Orks:
Weirdboy - sorry, with a Warlord, SAG-mek and KFF-mek (and special characters); you're just too random.
Flash Gits and artillery batteries - too random or soft; there's battlewagons and boomguns to buy.
Mega-nobs: 40 point powerklaws and 2+ armour, looking pretty sweet; wait... no doc... no invuln... slow... hmm, maybe not.
on a differnt note: I like tankbustas. Cheapest rokkits in the army and bombsquigs (basically a single-use BS:5 rokkit), and I love the background, "we'z gettin' tanked!"
Herald of Nurgle
08-03-2009, 02:19 PM
Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.
Really? From personal experience...
:p
Old_Paladin
08-03-2009, 02:35 PM
Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.
OK, I have to jump on this one too.
Really? Aren't they like 25 points each. For the best troops in the game. To be outnumbers 3-1, you're looking at 8 point or less troops; that are barely going to be able to hurt them. Statistically, you need to get in 18 hits with strength 4 to kill 1! That's about 15 marines, or 20 eldar guardians rapid firing... to kill one PM (on average).
Give them plasmaguns. It's great firepower, and on the overheat, they have to fail two saves.
darth_papi76
08-03-2009, 02:47 PM
I really like commissar but I always seem to leave them out because I'm trying to fit in as many infantry models as I can.
Herald of Nurgle
08-03-2009, 02:58 PM
OK, I have to jump on this one too.
Really? Aren't they like 25 points each. For the best troops in the game. To be outnumbers 3-1, you're looking at 8 point or less troops; that are barely going to be able to hurt them. Statistically, you need to get in 18 hits with strength 4 to kill 1! That's about 15 marines, or 20 eldar guardians rapid firing... to kill one PM (on average).
Give them plasmaguns. It's great firepower, and on the overheat, they have to fail two saves.
Actually, it's worse than that. You need to find a unit that has an average cost of 7.6(rec) points for it to be a 3-1 thing. Hmm, that means you're looking at Ork Boyz (which will be eaten by Plague Marines), or Infantry Platoons (See above, only worse). I've actually played one Apocalypse game where 28 Plague Marines forced the same Endless Swarm to return twice or three times over the course of the game - that's Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, which are costing more than 3-1.
Literally, until an army can get a force of Monstrous Creatures for, say, 50 per model (cough daemons cough), this 3-1 outnumber will not matter. Oh, wait, then I get two PM each.
Luck it or Hammer it. PM don't give a damn. How about we then compare them to Thousand Sons - the other 23 point cult troop. Hmm, which is better? Oh, wait, until you get to the 1000 vs. 777, the Plague Marines beat the multi coloured dust out of them.
No joke.
Fun fun.
Cthulhu
08-03-2009, 03:24 PM
Actually, I'm not wildly enamored of Plague Marines myself, though I will admit they can be good, but I believe how they're packaged is a pretty key part of the equation. For example, they pretty much have to be in a Rhino, which limits them to ten man squads, the Rhino ends up having to have a few points spent on it since if you're going to buy Extra Armour why aren't you buying Daemonic Possession for five more points.
So ultimately, you end up spending ~300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino, which is no small amount of points (not that the CSM codex is handing out bargains, but hey).
I have been running some experiments with twenty man CSM squads with the Icon of Nurgle and 2 Melta guns and have been pretty successful with them, although the problem with them is that the size of the squad limits the tactical options open to them, ie you pretty much have to rush across the board to engage your enemy, which can be problematic against some armies.
What's my point? Ultimately, my point is that T5 and LD10 will get you a long ways at a savings of about 5.5 points per model.
Cthulhu
08-03-2009, 03:28 PM
I've actually played one Apocalypse game where 28 Plague Marines forced the same Endless Swarm to return twice or three times over the course of the game - that's Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, which are costing more than 3-1.
On this note, fifth edition rules for fearless models are full of fail for Tyranid mobs. Rules for Hive Mind need serious help for the next Tyranid codex, until such time my nids will continue to gather dust in the garage.
Lord Sandwich
08-03-2009, 03:34 PM
Actually, I'm not wildly enamored of Plague Marines myself, though I will admit they can be good, but I believe how they're packaged is a pretty key part of the equation. For example, they pretty much have to be in a Rhino, which limits them to ten man squads, the Rhino ends up having to have a few points spent on it since if you're going to buy Extra Armour why aren't you buying Daemonic Possession for five more points.
So ultimately, you end up spending ~300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino, which is no small amount of points (not that the CSM codex is handing out bargains, but hey).
I have been running some experiments with twenty man CSM squads with the Icon of Nurgle and 2 Melta guns and have been pretty successful with them, although the problem with them is that the size of the squad limits the tactical options open to them, ie you pretty much have to rush across the board to engage your enemy, which can be problematic against some armies.
What's my point? Ultimately, my point is that T5 and LD10 will get you a long ways at a savings of about 5.5 points per model.
Why buy Extra Armor and Possession? If you just roll in the Rhino, then you really don't need any upgrades to it. Oh, and 300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino isn't too bad -- I pay 235 points for a Tac Squad in a Rhino, and Plague Marines are far superior, especially given that a 300 point squad would entitle a PF and a pair of flamers. Not a bad loadout.
Twenty man squads? You... HAVE played against mech before, right? There's no way you'll catch anything, ever. Once you consider that even standing still you get as much firepower as a rapid firing Tac squad, minus heavy weapons, it becomes pretty apparent that such squads are quite poor.
Anyway, back on topic.
Marines
Devastators - Sorry, you bring a lot of heavy weapons, but look at that price tag.
Vanguard - Unless you're running them absolutely bare-bones in a Rhino, they're overpriced.
Predators - They're either pricey or they can't kill anything.
Aegis
08-03-2009, 04:20 PM
For Witch Hunters (aside from what was already mentioned):
- Death Cult Assassins, they just give away kill points too easily.
Gotta disagree on this one. When used effectively, DCA's can wreck units. Of course, charging them in on their lonesome is suicide, and then yes, easy KP's. However, if you hold off on the trigger finger, and chose your timing right, I have had DCA's turn the tide of battles for me.
Remember, they are not assault units, rather they are better at disrupting enemy plans, and making it easy for the rest of your force to clean up.
Cthulhu
08-03-2009, 04:28 PM
Twenty man squads? You... HAVE played against mech before, right? There's no way you'll catch anything, ever. Once you consider that even standing still you get as much firepower as a rapid firing Tac squad, minus heavy weapons, it becomes pretty apparent that such squads are quite poor.
I play against mech more or less all the time these days. The nice thing about a 20 man troop squad is that a) your opponent has no choice but to try to kill it and b) it will take them a long time to do it and c) if they're focusing on killing that squad they aren't shooting at your heavy support.
By the way, one 20 man squad can hold more than one objective quite easily, which is why when I run 20 man squads, I usually run two at least. That being said, they have their own set of problems, which is why I don't run them all the time.
Drunkencorgimaster
08-03-2009, 06:00 PM
Yeah, I know some of you kick butt with walkers (not the Texas Ranger kind) but I have no skill with them. Be they dreds or sentinels, they just wind up as battlefield wreckage under my command... so there they sit in the shelf. They look badass and are a great concept, but if I am playing to win (not that it happens often) they get left at home.
Trinity
08-03-2009, 06:37 PM
I've been running space wolves for the last couple years and for me the auto shelf has to be the wolf attachments. I just could neve bring myself to pay the extra points for a wolf. I'd rather get wargear or another marine if I had that much left.
Also the Exterminator. Its a great tank but in a competitive environment it just cannot hold its own. Its almost always more worth while to splurge the extra points for a Land Raider of whatever variant.
T.
Drunkencorgimaster
08-03-2009, 10:38 PM
I've been running space wolves for the last couple years and for me the auto shelf has to be the wolf attachments. I just could neve bring myself to pay the extra points for a wolf. I'd rather get wargear or another marine if I had that much left.
Also the Exterminator. Its a great tank but in a competitive environment it just cannot hold its own. Its almost always more worth while to splurge the extra points for a Land Raider of whatever variant.
T.
Amen to that. The Exterminator looks awesome as part of a Wolves army, but you're right. It never seems worth the cost.
thecactusman17
08-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Have to disagree on the Eldar assessment. Wraithlords are wonderful.
Daemonhunters: Grey Knight anything. for all the abilities these guys get, "survival" isn't one of them. Unless you use them as allies, or in Planetstrike, where they can fill gaps and do some amazing stuff.
hunter codexes: CC inquisitor squads. They never make back their points. They never have enough initiative to kill anything.
Blood Angels Troops: but the codex was free, right?
Herald of Nurgle
08-04-2009, 12:26 AM
On this note, fifth edition rules for fearless models are full of fail for Tyranid mobs. Rules for Hive Mind need serious help for the next Tyranid codex, until such time my nids will continue to gather dust in the garage.
Synapse doesn't give Fearless. It just means that you don't need morale.
Anything artillery is awful, even the Thunderfire Cannon. Takes one lucky bolt round to knock out either the operator or the gun. The only one really worth taking is the ork battery, and ONLY Zzapp guns. Still, a risk
Archon
08-04-2009, 05:49 AM
Dark Eldar - oh how they called in english? Scourges or something? The kind with jumppack and heavy weapons.
Totaly overpriced, too fragile, useless jumppacks. If they get the relentless special rule, they´ll be back.
Chaos Space Marines - Spawns what else? I like the plastic spawns, realy. But the lack of a save in combination with "fearless" let them die in close combat very fast. Only opponents who is impressed by spawns are orcs and imps.
Tau - Vespids. What can they do? Last min. mission grabbing? hmmm expensiv. CC? shooting? okay if you´re lucky enough to catch a bunch of marines in the open with LoS to your pathfinders...
Majorcrash
08-04-2009, 12:00 PM
Yeah, I know some of you kick butt with walkers (not the Texas Ranger kind) but I have no skill with them. Be they dreds or sentinels, they just wind up as battlefield wreckage under my command... so there they sit in the shelf. They look badass and are a great concept, but if I am playing to win (not that it happens often) they get left at home.
my best experience is to use them as flanker, killing any vehicles or hvy wpns, enemy deployment. Or as snipers in cover with lascanons killing lone heros or vehicles.
Majorcrash
08-04-2009, 12:06 PM
any IG artillery, except mortars, and one I know I will catch flak for, Pyskers or pysker squad. I have no luck with them. also penal legion.
Eldar- i have to agree with artillery, wraithlords and wraithguard, scorpions and banshees autarch, avatar.
tau- kroot (because few use them right) and vespids.
marines- to many to list...........
Madjob
08-04-2009, 01:06 PM
Synapse doesn't give Fearless. It just means that you don't need morale.
He was referring to 'No Retreat!', which is quite clearly worded that even if the unit/model doesn't have the Fearless rule listed, so long as they automatically pass leadership checks/don't need to test leadership it applies to them. Which means Gaunts get slaughtered wholesale in CC against anything tougher than a GEQ instead of bogging them down for several turns.
Gotthammer
08-04-2009, 01:23 PM
a Pyskers or pysker squad. I have no luck with them.
Definately agreed - my psykers only ever do two things: Suck and die, usually through failed psychic tests and on the first turn.
Also Terminators, but that may just be against my friends million plasma gun Tau army.
My Vindicator has never fired a shot despite being in several games.
crazyredpraetorian
08-04-2009, 01:48 PM
I've had pretty good results with PBS mounted in a Chimera. They are fragile without it.
Aldramelech
08-04-2009, 02:17 PM
Pyskers, Ogryns, stormtroopers, Arty (not mortars) all get left out for various reasons (No1 is I dont have any lol)
I have a Techpriest but I cant see myself ever fielding it
Rookie1
08-04-2009, 03:02 PM
scorpions and banshees
Really? That's interesting.
Well I skip the "wraithlord/-guard sucks or kick-butt" discussion, because it is to old and has been discussed in to many forums and blogs (yes, THIS blog, beginning with Y. lol).
But scorpions. Really? I play a small Eldar force, and my three elites are filled with fire dragons and harlies usually.
But I am going to test scorpions, because I guess they have at least potential, with S4, 3+ save, their wargear and the usually Eldar advantages.
Maybe you can give me a reason why they get benched in your opinion?!
rant: oh *** is censored. use butt instead. lol
Drunkencorgimaster
08-04-2009, 03:29 PM
I've had pretty good results with PBS mounted in a Chimera. They are fragile without it.
But the problem with that is they go on a fund drive a couple times a year. They won't fight and local celebrities show up to ask you to call into the Chimera's vox with a financial pledge, or else Big Bird will disappear.
Herald of Nurgle
08-04-2009, 03:30 PM
But the problem with that is they go on a fund drive a couple times a year. They won't fight and local celebrities show up to ask you to call into the Chimera's vox with a financial pledge, or else Big Bird will disappear.
Twitch, twitch
Wait, what?
Jwolf
08-04-2009, 05:07 PM
PBS is our public access network in the US. Since it provides useful and educational programming, it has to hold fund drives to stay on the air in almost every community.
warpcrafter
08-04-2009, 10:15 PM
Whoa!!! My Plague Marines must be especially cursed. However, I must point out that there are lots of weapons that don't allow FNP, and in 5th edition, rate of fire trumps high strength every time. And I must state that the most brutal defeats were handed to me by Eldar with two bladestorm Dire Avenger squads and a war walker squadron with multi-lasers and missile launchers and space marines with twin assault cannons razorbacks. They weren't slaughtered quickly, they were worn down over the course of five or six turns, but the result is the same. It's my fault, of course because I refuse to use the obvious twin lash/obliterator trick that everybody else swears by. Stupid me for reading the fluff.
Vince
08-05-2009, 01:42 AM
Plague Marines are the best troops chaos has over all. As far as benched units for chaos I would say all the special characters (maybe not abbadon) all the fast attack choices and thousand sons and dreads.
On another note I think Assault terminators have made normal terminators obsolete for space marines. Also I cant see ever fielding a Chaplain when you can field a Libarian to go with your HQ and if for some reason you did take a chaplain it would be Cassius.
grimm
08-05-2009, 08:06 AM
PBS is our public access network in the US. Since it provides useful and educational programming without advertisements, it has to hold fund drives to stay on the air in almost every community.
Fixed your quote
Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 08:27 AM
Really? That's interesting.
Well I skip the "wraithlord/-guard sucks or kick-butt" discussion, because it is to old and has been discussed in to many forums and blogs (yes, THIS blog, beginning with Y. lol).
But scorpions. Really? I play a small Eldar force, and my three elites are filled with fire dragons and harlies usually.
But I am going to test scorpions, because I guess they have at least potential, with S4, 3+ save, their wargear and the usually Eldar advantages.
Maybe you can give me a reason why they get benched in your opinion?!
rant: oh *** is censored. use butt instead. lol
My Eldar force is formed around 2-3 squads of guardians with added DAvengers and counterpunch of Harliquiens. Firedragons are a must. But banshees and scorpions are few in number and only good for one hit and then mowed down. at thier cost i would rather have another large unit of guardians or some vehicles. I am currently trying out reapers but havent made up my mind. The wraithguard are just to pricey even though i like them. and the wraithlord, is not as good buy as a Fprism or a falcon. Plus I think of the wraithlord as more of a theme unit. (just me). warwalkers are a must with a farseer to assist.
Rookie1
08-05-2009, 09:11 AM
My Eldar force is formed around 2-3 squads of guardians with added DAvengers and counterpunch of Harliquiens. Firedragons are a must. But banshees and scorpions are few in number and only good for one hit and then mowed down. at thier cost i would rather have another large unit of guardians or some vehicles. I am currently trying out reapers but havent made up my mind. The wraithguard are just to pricey even though i like them. and the wraithlord, is not as good buy as a Fprism or a falcon. Plus I think of the wraithlord as more of a theme unit. (just me). warwalkers are a must with a farseer to assist.
Warwalkers and dark reapers suffer the same as wraithlords and any other heavy support. They are all inferior comparing to fire prisms. 3 reapers cost the same as a fire prism, so they get benched.
Only falcons can compare to fire prisms, especially when I don't want to play with the FP templates (sometimes my dices are cursed).
Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 12:18 PM
I supposed, As i said just started using the reapers, but I have had lost a luck with the walkers and the mass firepower combined with guide is devestating for most armies. Add into that the firepower of falcon and waveserpents. its usually over by turn 3. Only necrons and tau and other eldar give my eldar fits.
Cthulhu
08-05-2009, 12:34 PM
Synapse doesn't give Fearless. It just means that you don't need morale.
Wait, run that by me again, I haven't read my nid codex or faqs for awhile, but I've always been under the impression that nids within the radius of hive mind are fearless, which means that it sucks badly for gaunts and to a lesser extent genestealers. If that's not the case I might be wrong about the currently perceived immense failure of the nid codex in 5th edition.
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