Teach Me How to Daemon

[ElectricPaladin]

I've decided that with the new psychic phase rules, the only thing left for me to do is to revolutionize the world. By which I mean trade my Eldar in for Daemons and dominate the psychic phase with absurd summoning and death spells.

What can you tell me about Codex: Chaos Daemons? How does it work? What's good? What's bad? With a particular emphasis on the servants of Tzeentch, of course, but I do want to learn about everything.

Also, I have first attempt at a 1.5k list. Help me check my instincts - is this any good? Am I getting the hang of this codex?

HQ
• Lord of Change w/Greater Reward, ML 3
• Herald of Tzeentch on a Disk w/Lesser Reward, ML 3
• Herald of Tzeentch w/Greater Reward, ML 3

Troops
• 10 Pink Horrors w/Blasted Standard
• 10 Pink Horrors w/Blasted Standard

Fast Attack
• 6 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support
• Daemon Prince w/Daemon of Tzeentch, Daemonic Flight, Greater Reward, ML 3, Warp-Forged Armor
• Daemon Prince w/Daemon of Tzeentch, Daemonic Flight, Greater Reward, ML 3, Warp-Forged Armor

[White Tiger88]

-Heralds are worthless as they get shot in the face the second they do anything...take two greater demons and enjoy the lawlz.
-Soulgrinders give people a bad day, Demon princes tend to get 1 shoted since they are only T5....
-Flesh Hounds own the fast attack slot.
-Demonettes are the most annoying. OP troops in the game...USE THEM!
-Best Hq choices for cheap are a Lord of Change,Belakor or Bloodthirster.

Other then that enjoy!

[ElectricPaladin]

Hrm... so if what I want to do is try to put lots of Mastery Levels on the board so I can do lots of summoning, what's the best way to get them? Maybe go more heavily into lords of change and only one herald, who I can have join something tough that can protect him, or put on a chariot? Only one Daemon prince?

[daboarder]

Hrm... so if what I want to do is try to put lots of Mastery Levels on the board so I can do lots of summoning, what's the best way to get them? Maybe go more heavily into lords of change and only one herald, who I can have join something tough that can protect him, or put on a chariot? Only one Daemon prince?

Heralds, your doing fine, they hide in the units and make more heralds and horrors, you wont be miscasting with them and they wont be getting drastically shot out form under you in a turn.

flesh hounds are worth recommending, especially when you can throw invis on them at will (you can)

swap your LoC to fateweaver, hes a good battery and its pretty much impossible to ever actually ground him now (he needs to fail his saves)

[ElectricPaladin]

You didn't mention it, but I assume that you'd agree that I shouldn't invest as heavily in Daemon princes? Could one be worth it? Or are they just losers?

[daboarder]

You didn't mention it, but I assume that you'd agree that I shouldn't invest as heavily in Daemon princes? Could one be worth it? Or are they just losers?
I think they are fine really. your not overly invested in them. and they fill a role in the list. furthermore you can happily use them to smash ground units while they feed warp charge to your other psykers.

do consider using belakor from CSM as an ally (preventing him form stealing warlord form FW) though as he is stupid good this edition.

[White Tiger88]

You didn't mention it, but I assume that you'd agree that I shouldn't invest as heavily in Daemon princes? Could one be worth it? Or are they just losers?

Demon Princes with T5 are just to squishy (at least in my meta...) The soulgrinder of nurgle with its lovely cover save + Giant Template of doom on the other hand is a much cheaper, more reliable source of damage.

[kharne690]

Since your attempting to summon lots more guys take a look at the blue scribes.

[ElectricPaladin]

Since your attempting to summon lots more guys take a look at the blue scribes.

Yeah… I've got to look into those dudes.

[kharne690]

Also giving a Herald on disc a portaglyph running him forward then throwing it behind terrain. And giving LOC and prince's the lesser reward staff that turns guys into spawn.

[ElectricPaladin]

I just read the entry on the Blue Scribes, and they are hilarious. I am getting one.

[White Tiger88]

I just read the entry on the Blue Scribes, and they are hilarious. I am getting one.

They really are......Don't forget the changeling too!~

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, is it just me or are soul grinders basically auto-includes, as the only source of anti-air in an army without its own flyers?

[White Tiger88]

Also, is it just me or are soul grinders basically auto-includes, as the only source of anti-air in an army without its own flyers?

Nurgle soulgrinders are auto if you like living...............

[ElectricPaladin]

Darn. I really want to put most of my points into Tzeentch-flavored stuff, because I like the idea of bright colors and added tentacles and the general "tons of magic everywhere" theme. I guess I could always paint it however I want and make it clear that it's Nurgle in a rules sense.

Anyway, about its upgrades. It seems like any of the secondary weapons are fine if you've got the points, but none are necessary. Is it just me or is the warpsword a waste of points? I guess the extra attack is nice - since it's got Specialist Weapon it can add an extra attack to the iron claw - but in what circumstances would you ever use it as the attacking weapon? If you're punching something with a high WS and you want to optimize the chance of a hit? But since the Soul Grinder is like a Space Marine dreadnought - fine at punching, but primarily a shooting unit - once it's locked in combat you've basically screwed up anyway, and I generally prefer to spend my points enhancing my strengths rather than mitigating weaknesses.

[White Tiger88]

Darn. I really want to put most of my points into Tzeentch-flavored stuff, because I like the idea of bright colors and added tentacles and the general "tons of magic everywhere" theme. I guess I could always paint it however I want and make it clear that it's Nurgle in a rules sense.

Anyway, about its upgrades. It seems like any of the secondary weapons are fine if you've got the points, but none are necessary. Is it just me or is the warpsword a waste of points? I guess the extra attack is nice - since it's got Specialist Weapon it can add an extra attack to the iron claw - but in what circumstances would you ever use it as the attacking weapon? If you're punching something with a high WS and you want to optimize the chance of a hit? But since the Soul Grinder is like a Space Marine dreadnought - fine at punching, but primarily a shooting unit - once it's locked in combat you've basically screwed up anyway, and I generally prefer to spend my points enhancing my strengths rather than mitigating weaknesses.

The best soulgrinder build by far point for point is Mark of Nurgle + Phlegm as it gives you a great template weapon for when you have no air units to harvest! Plus it is one of the only shooting weapons in the army...... Also with its Involn save and solid army the Soulgrinder can eat the face of marine units single handedly causing even terminators to have a rough time.

[ElectricPaladin]

The best soulgrinder build by far point for point is Mark of Nurgle + Phlegm as it gives you a great template weapon for when you have no air units to harvest! Plus it is one of the only shooting weapons in the army...... Also with its Involn save and solid army the Soulgrinder can eat the face of marine units single handedly causing even terminators to have a rough time.

Fair enough.

But you'd agree that the warpsword is a waste of points?

[White Tiger88]

Fair enough.

But you'd agree that the warpsword is a waste of points?

Oh yes, all the other upgrades besides Phlegm are.

[ElectricPaladin]

Oh yes, all the other upgrades besides Phlegm are.

Really? I guess the phlegm cooperates best with the harvester cannon, given that it's a long-range, medium-high Strength weapon. The baleful torrent is garbage for the same reason that the warpsword is useless - if you're close enough to us it, the model has failed in its primary purpose. Warp gaze doesn't seem too bad, though. I play Tau, and Strength 10 AP 1 is not to be sneezed at, even with only a medium range. Especially with the new rules regarding vehicles, it might be the soul grinder's only way to insta-kill AP 13+, and that might be important, as the new vehicle rules might bring things like land raiders back to the table...

[White Tiger88]

Really? I guess the phlegm cooperates best with the harvester cannon, given that it's a long-range, medium-high Strength weapon. The baleful torrent is garbage for the same reason that the warpsword is useless - if you're close enough to us it, the model has failed in its primary purpose. Warp gaze doesn't seem too bad, though. I play Tau, and Strength 10 AP 1 is not to be sneezed at, even with only a medium range. Especially with the new rules regarding vehicles, it might be the soul grinder's only way to insta-kill AP 13+, and that might be important, as the new vehicle rules might bring things like land raiders back to the table...

Ya the nurgle cover save mixed into that makes the soulgrinder too good to not use :D

[ElectricPaladin]

Ok. Enough about soul grinders. I have a questions about ordinary troops: the icon of chaos and various upgrade standards are obviously worth it, as is the instrument of chaos (as a Blood Angels player, I well know the value of manipulating reserves!). However, what about the option to upgrade one model into a leader character and get it a gift of chaos? Is there any value there? Or is it best to keep the unit cheap?

[White Tiger88]

Ok. Enough about soul grinders. I have a questions about ordinary troops: the icon of chaos and various upgrade standards are obviously worth it, as is the instrument of chaos (as a Blood Angels player, I well know the value of manipulating reserves!). However, what about the option to upgrade one model into a leader character and get it a gift of chaos? Is there any value there? Or is it best to keep the unit cheap?

Depends on the unit, if it is Demonettes the Allures with a power weapon is amazing. On the other units not so much worth it however.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Depends on the unit, if it is Demonettes the Allures with a power weapon is amazing. On the other units not so much worth it however.

On balance it's all about the role of the unit.
But Tzeench ones are certainly the LEAST worth putting a gift on.
That said 5 points for an extra attack and the ability to challenge out unit killers (provided of course this doesn't change in 90mins when the book comes out here in Aus) is probably worth it even if you don't gift them.

[ElectricPaladin]

That said 5 points for an extra attack and the ability to challenge out unit killers (provided of course this doesn't change in 90mins when the book comes out here in Aus) is probably worth it even if you don't gift them.

Huh... weirdly, I would have said the opposite in most cases. It's worth it if you have the points to put a gift on them, because you might get something useful, but otherwise it's a waste of points (except potentially in the case of assault units). Perhaps that's because I'm approaching it from a Tzeentchian point of view.

Truth be told, as much as I'm most interested in Tzeentch, I'm not actually going to play mono-Tzeentch. My first trade includes Nurgle and Khorne daemons as well, and even if I go with the "uber-summoning" list, part of the appeal is the ability to summon in whatever I need, even if it's not Tzeentch-flavored, so I should know how the other gods' servants work as well.

[White Tiger88]

On balance it's all about the role of the unit.
But Tzeench ones are certainly the LEAST worth putting a gift on.
That said 5 points for an extra attack and the ability to challenge out unit killers (provided of course this doesn't change in 90mins when the book comes out here in Aus) is probably worth it even if you don't gift them.

Apparently you can't do that anymore.... the wounds transfer over.

[ElectricPaladin]

Apparently you can't do that anymore.... the wounds transfer over.

Which makes it a good idea to have a challenge warrior, but only if you are sure you have a chance of winning the fight.

[White Tiger88]

Which makes it a good idea to have a challenge warrior, but only if you are sure you have a chance of winning the fight.

Only the Slaanesh Champ has a chance =/ other wise they drop dead before they strike.

Mind you this is more reason for you to take a big CC monster to challenge sarg's with >:D

[Kaptain Badrukk]

With that in mind then.
Champions - Worth it for 5pts (IMO) just for the extra attack and precision strike (even without challenges.
Gifts
Lesser Table - 3 of the 6 gifts are decent enough on a 1 wound champ (Cleaving Strike, Spellbreaker, Warpstrider).
Etherbalde - Pays off on champs well enough and it's 5pts cheaper for an AP2 powerweapon than a marine's
Staff of change - kinda sucks
Axe of Khorne - Is absically a better etherblade :)
Palgue Flail and Witstealer Sword - Ok, not great though as they are of more limited use.

Greater Table - All gifts the are good, but a points investment.
Greater Etherblade - not sure +1st is worth 10pts, but if you're going melee with the unit it's a solid choice.
Blade of blood - Yay! Rampage!
Balesword - Meh
Warpblade - see staff of change
Lash of despair - Deamonettes, with overwatch? Sounds fun, but I prefer the etherblade.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, I got back from my FLGS with my haul… about half my Eldar turned into a lovely collection of Daemons, including…

• 1 Lord of Change
• 1 Bloodthirster
• 2 Fantasy Sorcerers (destined to be Heralds of Tzeentch)
• 1 Fantasy Nurgle Champion (also destined for Heraldom)
• 10 Pink Horrors
• 29 Bloodletters
• 10 Plaguebearers
• 3 Bloodcrushers
• 1 Beast of Nurgle

Obviously, I need some more Pink Horrors and some Daemonettes and a Soul Grinder. What else is high on my list?

[Lord Krungharr]

Flesh Hounds, man, Flesh Hounds. Even without Juggernaut Heralds (which I love using), they are great at taking a bunch of fire and still usually getting to stupid shooty units to tie them up for discontinued shooting.

Lord of Change is real nice but make sure you give Fateweaver a try by proxy if you don't want to get one or convert something into him. Bloodcrushers are really not all that hot, so I would recommend calling them Jugger-Heralds if you use them. 1 Beast of Nurgle is all anyone should ever field. It's fun to watch him charge something that just charged one of your Horrors units :)

Somebody told me they fixed Chariots in the new rules, however he forgot to tell me exactly how they were fixed. Keep your eyes on that, and if they somehow gave all Chariot riders Relentless, then a Burning Chariot w Exalted Flamer will be very nice to have. Otherwise, Daemonettes, Grinder, more Horrors, Fateweaver and you're good.

I do like Daemon Princes, that's a bucket more of flying psychic powers, which are game winners (just ask my pure Khorne Daemons list about that). Twice as much as a Nurgle Phlegm Grinder, but really can pay off especially with the new Grounding rules/reduced tests. Just fly around and cast powers. The Thirster may be better off just jumping around from the start now like jump infantry. You could still in theory get a Turn 2 assault, just not as easy of course.

In my experience the Portaglyph sucks in most scenarios. Grimoire is way better if you have to choose. That Souldrinker is good, and that other Exalted to summon more Troops is good too. But for a FMC, Warp Flux may be good to have now.

Until it gets FAQd away (which it very well may) get some allied CSM Landraiders and put Bloodletters inside. Battle Bros can now embark in each other's transports!

[White Tiger88]

So, I got back from my FLGS with my haul… about half my Eldar turned into a lovely collection of Daemons, including…

• 1 Lord of Change
• 1 Bloodthirster
• 2 Fantasy Sorcerers (destined to be Heralds of Tzeentch)
• 1 Fantasy Nurgle Champion (also destined for Heraldom)
• 10 Pink Horrors
• 29 Bloodletters
• 10 Plaguebearers
• 3 Bloodcrushers
• 1 Beast of Nurgle

Obviously, I need some more Pink Horrors and some Daemonettes and a Soul Grinder. What else is high on my list?

Beasts of nurgle,Bloodcrushers,BLoodletters are pretty much useless.....i hate to say it but more Demonettes and 10 more plaguebringers + 2 or 3 soulgrinders.

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's a question... why don't we consider a flying Daemon prince as a potential vector for anti-aircraft. A Daemon prince can potentially take...

• They have access to Telekinesis powers, of which three and a half out of six are viable anti-aircraft powers (Crush, Objuration Mechanicum, and Psychic Maelstrom, with Assail as a "half" because it stands only a minor chance of harming all but the lightest flyers).
• Additionally, several Change powers have the potential to harm flyers, including Tzeentch's Firestorm, Bolt of Change, and Infernal Gateway.
• Several Daemonic Gifts have the potential to harm flyers, including Warp Breath, Hellfire Gaze, Touch of Uncreation, Winds of Chaos.
• As noted, d3 automatic hits at Strength 6 with Vector Strike can at least glance all flyers, and might penetrate the lighter ones.

Daemon Prince w/Daemon of Tzeentch (for example, but really any will do), Psyker ML 3, 1 Greater Reward, 1 Exalted Reward, Warp-Forged Armor, and Daemonic Flight costs 300 points. Get all three powers from Telekinesis, and you get the Primaris Power automatically... not much to write home about, but it will help him to be useful on any turn in which he's not punching flyers. He's pricey, but he's also a four-wound flyer who can always get Jink saves if he needs them.

If you were to go Slaanesh, you could also arrange to have a Lash of Despair. That's 2d6 Strength 6 attacks. Again, you'll end up fishing for glancing blows against many flyers, but with 2d6 shots - and a BS of 5 - that's a viable tactic for killing the thing.

Most importantly, although he's pricey, he's not really that specialized. Once the enemy flyer is taken care of, he can land and get into combat, or continue to fly around using psychic powers to harass the enemy.

I don't think it's a bad strategy.

[White Tiger88]

Demon Princes arn't worth it due to there dang cost.....350pts of so.

[daboarder]

Demon Princes arn't worth it due to there dang cost.....350pts of so.

I dunno, I think a Daemon Bomb list is going to need some guaranteed hitting power without relying on summoning Greater daemons, and a pair of princes would supply that

Maybe think about a CSM allied black mace prince and some cultists (Herald fodder)

[ElectricPaladin]

I dunno, I think a Daemon Bomb list is going to need some guaranteed hitting power without relying on summoning Greater daemons, and a pair of princes would supply that

Maybe think about a CSM allied black mace prince and some cultists (Herald fodder)

My collection will definitely include allied CSM eventually... probably cultists, another Daemon prince, maybe a hellturkey some day?

[White Tiger88]

My collection will definitely include allied CSM eventually... probably cultists, another Daemon prince, maybe a hellturkey some day?

Hellturkey and a landraider full of Demonettes if you want a laugh.

[hollismason]

Heralds of Tzeentch with Accompanying 3 man Screamers are excellent summoners and can move 12 , summon , then Turbo Boost away plus the Screamers give you survivability, Oh and he can jink. Heralds of Slaanesh on steeds are great as well for Dealing with things like Thunderfire and they can outflank with a Icon. Cast Terrify, Invisibility, or Psychic Shriek. The Summon a Squad of Daemons.

Burning Chariots of Tzeentch are great to have as well because it can deepstrike and now fire off a ST5 AP3 Flamer or D3 Lascannon shots.

Pink Horrors are great but remember that having to many severely limits your ability to do things as you are to reliant on Summoned Daemons.

PlagueDrones of Nurgle are amazing, come with shrouded and can use their Jetpack move after being summoned.

The best summoner in the game doesn't belong to Chaos Daemons , but Chaos Space Marines, Crimson Slaughter, Prophet of the voices , Spell Familiar, and can focus in Malefic. Can't join a squad except Possessed but whatev.

You can use sacrifice to summon a Herald of Slaanesh on a Chariot that can then boost away flat out or Summon a Herald that's Level 1 with a Disc that can then Turbo Boost away.

It's actually almost impossible to kill a Soul Grinder that has Mark of Tzeentch, Cursed Earth and has Invisibility cast on him. He has a 4++ Reroll on 1s and need sixes to hit. More if he get's grimoire on him.

You can summon after Deep Strike and Outflanking, add in musicians and a BAstion w/ Comm Relay and you'll probably get your entire army on Turn 2. It's a great defense.

Flickering Fire and all shooting attacks occur during the Psychic Phase, Imperial Knights don't get their save.

Daemon Princes are needed in the HS simply because it boosts your Warp charge and gives you a actual threat in your backfield.

[Demonus]

Flickering Fire and all shooting attacks occur during the Psychic Phase, Imperial Knights don't get their save.

Why wouldn't they get a save? Does it ignore their inv?

[Lord Krungharr]

I thought the Knight invul shield is valid until the enemy's next Shooting phase, but I could be mistaken.

Horrors pretty much suck arse. With the way powers work now, it's unlikely the Horrors will be doing anything at all except providing warp charges. They are TERRIBLE in combat. 3 Plague Marines wiped out 30 of my Horrors in 2 turns due to Daemonic Instability. Just really really bad all around now. But for a fluffy Tzeentch list they're a must have ( I have like 42 of them :)

The psychic flying circus is nearly unbeatable now due to the tougher Grounding Test rules. Chuck in a fast Herald with Malefics and a fast meat shield (Disc dude w Screamers is best of course) and you'll be on your way to a free army in 3 turns if all goes well.

And while I don't like any other chariot Daemons, the Exalted Flamer Burning Chariot is now very very good, and coupled with a fast psyker casting Cursed Earth the previous turn, I think it's a great heavy support choice nearly beyond a Soul Grinder (of course those are awesome too).

I disagree about the Crimson Slaughter sorcerer, though that is a very good build. CSMs will Perils on any doubles on Malefic powers, and thus, you will probably be dying after a couple rounds of casting high warp charge powers. Plus they're not typically as fast or at least don't have meat shield units that can keep up like Screamers.

[Caitsidhe]

The psychic flying circus is nearly unbeatable now due to the tougher Grounding Test rules.

How so? I don't care how long the Daemon Princes fly around since their most effective damage is usually done in combat. Flying around and casting psychic powers is nice, but buying Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons is a hell of a price to pay. To come down and fight they have to face a round of shooting. Moreover, even if the grounding test is harder, the longer they are up there the greater your odds of forcing them to make one. There is also ample anti-air these days. If they sit up there throwing dice at conjuration they will likely score a few wounds on themselves. Moreover, while they dilly dally up there you can wipe out everything they have on the ground.


I disagree about the Crimson Slaughter sorcerer, though that is a very good build. CSMs will Perils on any doubles on Malefic powers, and thus, you will probably be dying after a couple rounds of casting high warp charge powers. Plus they're not typically as fast or at least don't have meat shield units that can keep up like Screamers.

What do you disagree about, that making the Sorcerer a Daemon frees it from the higher chance of Perils? It does. And I have tested out a Nurgle Sorcerer on a Palanquin and he is more than capable of surviving the entire game while summoning Daemons. This build has (4) Wounds and due to Spell Familiar can reroll Perils (or failures). With Prophet of the Voices the Sorcerer only Perils on the double six.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ah, I missed that artefact that makes the Crimson Sorcerer a Daemon. That is indeed freakin' awesome.

But the flying Circus doesn't have to come down to fight. It can summon other Daemons to fight and score objectives and get linebreaker. It takes an assload of shooting to down just one these days. They will have more trouble accomplishing Maelstrom missions perhaps, but in regular games they are tougher than ever. Even in 6th, the most effective FMC lists weren't the ones that tried to get up in there and assault right away; it was the ones roaming around using powers.

[hollismason]

The Imperial Knight has to choose it' facing at the beginning of your enemie shooting phase. He won't get it on your first turn , subsequent he might but I think it lasts until the end of the phase not the beginning of.

[Demonus]

You first choose when it is deployed, and then at the start of enemy's shooting phase.

Unless of course he arrives/shoots from a side that doesn't have the shield.

[deviant_cadaver]

I wouldn't count out Slaansh grinders. You are spending a lot to sit a battle cannon in the back if you go Nurgle. Soulgrinders are pretty durable and pretty handy in assault.