Primarchs' fall to Chaos

[Dlatrex]

Hey guys, I was hoping to lean on some lore-ninjas a little more up on the Heresy than I am. In going through the black library series I am currently caught up through Betrayer, and as the Primarchs are a large focus of the HH series I cannot help but try to put some order to their descent into madness. I am not sure if the following counts as SPOILERS but consider yourself warned.


Based on what the novels has listed, this is a rough timeline for the fall of the traitor Primarchs. (Time listed in relation to the Drop Site Massacre of Istvaan v ~ 006.M31)

DSM -40: Lorgar reaches EoT and Cadia. Catalyzed 3 years earlier by Erebus and Kor Phaeron

DSM -6: Fulgrim acquires the blade of Laer which begins his downward spiral.

DSM -5: Alpharius/Omegon have their revelation with The Cabal. Unclear if they are actually under the sway of Chaos (at least at this point).

DSM -2: Horus falls to the Anathame at Davin. Events are catalyzed by Erebus.

DSM -2: Perturabo commits genocide against the rebellion on Olympus and realizes he is beyond forgiveness. Events catalyzed by Horus

DSM -2: Mortarion , Angron , and Fulgrim are called to meet with Horus and brought to his cause. It is possible that Mortarion was receptive due to the influence of Erebus by way of Typhon

DSM -2: Magnus the Red suffers the loss of Prospero and accepts the 'salvation' offered by Tzeentch. He appears to have achieved Daemonhood.

DSM +0: The Drop Site Massacre of Istvaan V. Open Rebellion by Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperors Children. Magnus responds to Horus' invitation.

DSM +1: Perturabo and Fulgrim seek out the Angel Exterminatus. Fulgrim achieves Daemonhood.

DSM +2: Lorgar and Angron attack Ultramar. Angron achieves Daemonhood.


So with all the laid out the big question mark I have is Konrad Curze. The two stories featured in Shadows of Treachery, show his confrontation with Dorn as occurring before before the heresy has broken out, and it seems as if he was being recalled to Terra around the events of Istavaan. So the two queries I have are: have we seen exactly when Curze decides to throw off his loyalty to the Emperor? He's certainly unstable, but he seemed to try to be consilatory in part during The Dark King. Question #2. IF Curze was on the lamb, and marked for reprimand, when all hell breaks loose with Horus, should not the loyalists have suspected him FIRST when they heard legions were rallying against the emperor? Magnus was already on the black list, and they knew Horus had at least 4 legions, so I cannot think that the tactical commanders be they the Emperor, or just Dorn and his Ilk would have said "Oh! Curze, you're coming to help us pacify Horus? That's just tops!"...and not have expected a knife in the back.

Perhaps one of the later books covers this, but I haven't seen his stance explained so far.

[YorkNecromancer]

Magnus the Red suffers the loss of Prospero and accepts the 'salvation' offered by Tzeentch. He appears to have achieved Daemonhood.

Yup.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/9a/MagnusEpic.jpg/510px-MagnusEpic.jpg

The first four Chaos legions from back in the day (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons - one for each Chaos god, with the Black Legion as the Unaligned Chapter) all had Primarchs who Ascended/Descended into Daemon Princedom, and Epic-scale models that went with them, which, as you can see, were terrible.

Magnus was by far the ugliest model out of the four. His stats were pretty good; he was functionally equivelant to a Shadowsword but a bit more survivable. You used him for Titan killing.

Here's the other models in case you're interested. They're all pretty bloody awful.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/6/6f/Angron_Epic.jpg/544px-Angron_Epic.jpg
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/a/a9/FulgrimEpic.jpg/492px-FulgrimEpic.jpg
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/92/MortarionEpic.jpg/376px-MortarionEpic.jpg

[Force21]

Hmm....a good question about Cruze...

I'm not sure...but I would think that like a year or so before the drop sire massacre, Horus said to him "Hey Konrad want to kill stuff?"

I could see Cruze fall quite easily...because of his crazy visions of the future, you could say that he was fallen to chaos when he landed on Nastramo.

Same could be said for Perturabo when he was on Olympia, he did see the Eye of Terror since he was a child...


which is a bit odd...because if Logar got to the Eye of Terror first...don't you think he would name it?

wait... who named it the Eye of Terror....was it Logar or Perturabo? I forgot...

[DETHMOKIL]

The two of the biggest holes in the HH is 1, why the hell is Cruze sent to Isstvan, and 2 why are the Imperial Fists called back to Terra to build a fort, but construction of said fort doesn't start until the Einstein and Garro, WAAAYY later then Ullanor when the order is made to the Imps. Like at least a year in the warp doing nothing at all.

I'm personally not sure about why the White Scars do so little, besides being tricked my the Alpha Legion, via orks.

But if you ask me, Cruz was a never into capital C Chaos, he was insane and went bonkers on his own. The fact that he is 100% dead via assassin suicide, instead of suicide by daemon possession like fulgrim (arguably), tells me that he didn't have a little daemon whispering into his ear.

Also read/watch Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now, or play a personal favorite game, Spec Ops: The Line. Fantastic game. Even though you know, by me mentioning the source inspiration of the game, you slide right into the role with out even knowing it.

[DaveTycho]

The Imperial Fists didn't get back to Terra until after they found Garro was because they were stuck in a warp storm for months. Garro blowing the Eisenstien's warp core was what got them out of the warp storm and got them back to Terra. This was explained in Flight of the Eisenstien.

As well as this, the reason the Fists didn't leave for Terra straight after Ullanor was because the legion had loose ends to tie up in the galaxy at large, ie gathering the legion together, settling matters of state, Rogal Dorn making sure Horus' job as the new warmaster is less difficult for him. All of this is in Horus Rising.

[DaveTycho]

No one knows yet why the Night Lords were sent to Isstvan. Maybe ADB will explain it when he does the Night Lords Heresy novel. My opinion though is that while they were considered crazy, possibly criminal too, the Night Lords were never considered traitors, and that's why they were sent. Could also be that when the call came out to prosecute Horus, they were one of the 7 Legions who put their hands up and said "I'll do it!" while other legions were too busy/ far away/ themselves getting massacred

[Tetsugaku]

I'm personally not sure about why the White Scars do so little, besides being tricked my the Alpha Legion, via orks.

Covered in Scars - which I'm reading now. I know this thread has spoiler tags so.... Don't read any further.

Horus sent Jaghatai Khan and all his chums to the other side of the galaxy so that Khan couldn't attend Nikea. If he spoke, along with Magnus and Sanguinius, in support of the Librarius, there was a greater chance the Emperor would allow them to continue and be a significant weapon in the upcoming war. The traitor legions of course never gave up their psychic space marines.

The Khan is out of contact behind another mahoosive warp storm for two+ years, when he finds his way out, he has no idea who to trust, in fact the legion is split to a degree along original Terran, native Chogoris lines and there's significant influence from Horus and the lodges amongst the troops.

[Wildeybeast]

No one knows yet why the Night Lords were sent to Isstvan. Maybe ADB will explain it when he does the Night Lords Heresy novel. My opinion though is that while they were considered crazy, possibly criminal too, the Night Lords were never considered traitors, and that's why they were sent. Could also be that when the call came out to prosecute Horus, they were one of the 7 Legions who put their hands up and said "I'll do it!" while other legions were too busy/ far away/ themselves getting massacred

This is most likely the reason. Horus has engineered it so certain legions were well out of the way, whilst others were close to hand, namely the ones supporting him and some loyal ones he wanted to kill. The emperor probably just grabbed those who were closest and this who could most quickly gather their full strength and sent them.

[Dlatrex]

Love those Epic minis.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20 and it is difficult for us to see how the Emperor (or Dorn) could put his trust in these turncoats and not see the cancer that had been eating away at them. It's just in this case a bit hard for me to wrap my mind around as Curze appears to have been right in the middle of being brought to 'justice' by the Emperor (or Dorn!).

Further illumination is required, and if there is a Night Lords book on the.. well, books, then perhaps that will sort it out. On paper, just as I would not have called on Magnus to help the loyalists, I would not think the Night Lords have been on the invite list to this particular party.

[DWest]

Looking at that Fulgrim model, I really want to build a 40k-scale version, maybe using a Trygon as the base? Just for the sheer lunacy, if nothing else.

As for the Night Lords, Imperium HQ might have been naive enough to still consider them loyal, if a bit loopy; after all, the separation between the murder and mayhem in a Night Lords compliance as compared to say, a Blood Angels compliance is one of degree, not direction.

[Katharon]

Covered in Scars - which I'm reading now. I know this thread has spoiler tags so.... Don't read any further.

Horus sent Jaghatai Khan and all his chums to the other side of the galaxy so that Khan couldn't attend Nikea. If he spoke, along with Magnus and Sanguinius, in support of the Librarius, there was a greater chance the Emperor would allow them to continue and be a significant weapon in the upcoming war. The traitor legions of course never gave up their psychic space marines.

The Khan is out of contact behind another mahoosive warp storm for two+ years, when he finds his way out, he has no idea who to trust, in fact the legion is split to a degree along original Terran, native Chogoris lines and there's significant influence from Horus and the lodges amongst the troops.

Your timeline here is incorrect. You forget that the Emperor presided over Nikea whilst he was still in personal command of the Great Crusade. The main accuser against the Thousand Sons was Othere Wyrdmake of the Space Wolves -- who had spent a lengthy time fighting alongside the Thousand Sons and was considered to be (before Nikea) a friend of Ahriman's. The Council did, however, take place shortly after the Emperor had punished and shamed the Word Bearers for their sins of worship via the destruction of Monarchia.

Horus was not yet warmaster and the reason the Khan was not present is never fully discussed, but he did send his most trusted emissary and councilor, Targutai Yesugei to speak in his place. While I do believe that Magnus mentions in passing that he had wished the White Scars' lord had been present, little would have changed. It was quite clear from the outset of the Council that the Emperor was set upon a course that would, at the least, warn Magnus and chastise him from wantonly using his psykic powers or those of his sons.

The Khan, by his very nature, was always on the edge of space and always pushing the boundaries. By the time of the Heresy and the Istvaan Massacre, the Khan had indeed been out of contact for many years -- but that was decades after the council of Nikea.

[Tetsugaku]

Frequently incoherent, this is the problem with multiple authors! I'm near certain, 90% anyway that Nikea is after Ullanor and that's when the warm star was promoted. Horus had command of the legions and sent the awkward ones on long errands.

Happy to be proved wrong tho, have you a timeline you are referring to?

(As a side note of googling this I have discovered the council of Nicea, which I presume was part inspiration for those IP thieving buggers in BL)

[YorkNecromancer]

Frequently incoherent, this is the problem with multiple authors!

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/143/7/f/depending_by_yorknecromancer-d7jgeuk.jpg

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DependingOnTheWriter

[Benjamin Blanchard]

So right about the Emperor inconsistancies in the different books, and his so poor parental behaviour.

Angron is another example. Every other Primarchs had friends/teachers/advisors/fellow warriors/etc. surviving the events before the imperial recovery, and much of those who could allowed to join the legion (that said, for the better or the worse, the latter of course mostly for the easily influenced Lorgar). For Angron, the Emperor teleports the Primarch alone and let all his companions die. Good job Boss ! Such a good way to begin a nice and stable disturbed-due-to-alien-tech-child/father relationship !

It's so in the GRIMDARK that Games Workshop wants for its universe. In a more logical universe, it would be just fully impossible that a being with such an immense intelligence, godille skills and a knowledge resulting of 30 milleniums of existence could possibly be such an awful father (and psychiatrist/psychologists too…by the way, a friend of mine pointed out recently that much of the problems leading to the Heresy would have been so easily solved with a good therapy).

[Andrew Thomas]

I imagine that Curze's apotheosis is going to read like Rorschach's therapy scene in Watchmen, in that he'll have sacrificed so much, and will be so far gone that there will be nothing left for him but to ascend, likely as a galactic practical joke on the part of the Octed.

Also, you should check out the cover art for Mortarion's Heart.http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/02/black-library-review-mortarions-heart.html

[daboarder]

that highlighted bit made a good point. hes not a father he is an emperor, sure the primarchs have a genetic lineage to him but they are most definitely there to do what he says.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah, maybe if he'd NOT played the half-arsed dad then things would have turned out better.

[joosterandom]

It's pretty straightforward to me. Konrad and Angron are the two most immediately lethal Primarchs. If you want the Warmaster executed and you don't have Russ available, they're your next best choices. Both are already known to have traded some very serious blows with their brothers and came out on top.

Angron especially is going to be one of the first choices, because a war against a rebelling legion is not going to leave either side in a good state. It makes sense to send the most self-destructive, unstoppable force you have available into that.

-----


You forget that the Emperor presided over Nikea whilst he was still in personal command of the Great Crusade. The main accuser against the Thousand Sons was Othere Wyrdmake of the Space Wolves -- who had spent a lengthy time fighting alongside the Thousand Sons and was considered to be (before Nikea) a friend of Ahriman's.

Horus was not yet warmaster and the reason the Khan was not present is never fully discussed, but he did send his most trusted emissary and councilor, Targutai Yesugei to speak in his place.

Nikea was after Ullanor. Horus was Warmaster by that point. I would guess that part of the reason the Emperor decided to act as Magnus' judge is that he himself is a psyker, while Horus is not, so his authority is more relevant.

[Katharon]

I guess I should post this again...



POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING

You guys need to read "Mechanicus," then "First Heretic" and then "The Outcast Dead." Now time for wall-of-text and my chance to give you my full theory considering what facts we know.

The Emperor is - we can all agree - a singular being. There has never been a more powerful individual in entire universe (I don't consider the Tyranid Hive Mind to be an individual, but a gestalt consciousness and therefore on the same level as the Chaos Gods) and can be imagined as a man standing with a foot in both the material world and the immaterium. Due to his vast power and foresight, the Emperor traveled the length and breadth of time, seeing innumerable outcomes for Humanity (the last chapter of "Fear To Tread" is a perfect example of where a psykic with foresight sees varied outcomes of the future, also see the Eldar books). It was in the course of these ethereal travels that the Emperor saw that there was a slim path by which Humanity might be able to reach a point of apotheosis; to harness the powers of the Empyrean without fear of corruption from the Chaos Gods -- or at least at greatly reduced risk from them. Once he had determined this path he then set about making it a reality.

As it says throughout different points of the HH series, hints here and there, the Emperor created seeds within the socio-psychology of the human race. He created thousands upon thousands of myths and religious whispers that would one-day bear fruit and allow Him to step into the picture and claim suzerainty over all Mankind by self-fulfilling prophecy (pretty damned clever imho).

Once the Emperor took power over all of Terra (finally) and began the Great Crusade, he was prepared for the next step of his plan: galactic domination and the first step in eradicating Chaos.

Because the Emperor knew that Chaos was the primary foe against which Humanity must win, he set about cutting the Chaos Gods off from their main source of power: faith. The Warp is a reflection of reality and is fueled by the emotions of living beings in reality -- and the Chaos Gods feed upon those emotions, but even more so they feed upon the praise and worship that is offered them. By creating a galactic-wide Human empire that is ruled by secular thought and non-spiritual belief (with a strong undercurrent of faith changing to being put into the Emperor), the Emperor was -- in essence -- turning off a spout of water that the Chaos Gods required for sustenance. If he could manage to destroy the last vestiges of religion (many of which were twisted to worshiping Chaos in its varied forms) then that would be the great first step to fully defeating Chaos.

But the Emperor, beloved by all, failed in one thing: he underestimated the frailty of his greatest creations - the primarchs.

As I said before, the Emperor is a singular being -- none are as He is. In His mastery the Emperor forged 20 sons, beings unlike any other, but as close to the power of the Emperor as any other living being could become. They were to be his generals and crusade leaders, the exemplar of all the power and virtues of the Adeptus Astartes that were the gene-sons of their primarchs. It was his greatest and proudest moment of creation, when he bore the primarchs into existence. It was that -- pride and a mix of faith in his sons -- that was His downfall. Because the Emperor believed in his sons and thought them so far removed from the petty emotions that undermine the Human soul, he underestimated their fragility. Horus was not brought low by a promise of power or majesty; he was brought low by envy and a sense of abandonment.

In His effort to bring about an ascended Humanity, the Emperor put upon himself the burden of sole guardianship of that task -- only ever giving responsibility for lesser tasks to others when he felt it was necessary to concentrate on other, more important things (such as when he created the Order of the Dragon to keep the Void Dragon locked up on Mars; or made Horus the Warmaster to continue the Great Crusade). He was not able to relinquish the sense of responsibility that he felt in regard to guiding Humanity upon His chosen path.

This focus the Emperor had upon the chosen path for Humanity meant that he would miss various things and that Chaos would do everything in its power to oppose this plan. It is only with daemonic intervention and twisting of truth and lies that the primarchs are scattered in the first place (Ingethel manipulates the Word Bearers and preys upon their loss of faith in the Emperor -- and is capable of placing Argel Tal in a position where he can physically affect what was one of the most well protected locations in the galaxy, the gene-vault where the primarchs were forged and watched over by the Emperor himself).

And so the Emperor failed to fully understand his greatest creations (his sons), failed to fully educate them in the true threat of Chaos, and failed to share the burden of Humanity's path with any other. These combined to change the course of history and led to his placement upon the Golden Throne -- forcing Him to skip step two of his plan and onto step three: the creation of a religion based solely upon the God-Emperor that would find no opposition in a galaxy that had been cleansed of other religions. By being placed upon the Golden Throne, the Emperor ascended his mind and stepped fully into the Empyrean (no longer a man with two feet in two different places), taking on the responsibility of being a god-head figure and gaining the power from faith in the same manner that the Chaos Gods do.

Where it will lead from there? That's anyone's guess...

Considering all this, it's only natural that the Emperor would have a blind-spot in regards to his warriors. He expected so much of them and knew -- genetically -- that they were capable. The problem is that a living being is more than the sum parts of his genetic makeup.

[Katharon]

Nikea was after Ullanor. Horus was Warmaster by that point. I would guess that part of the reason the Emperor decided to act as Magnus' judge is that he himself is a psyker, while Horus is not, so his authority is more relevant.

You're right. I forgot now that there is a small confrontation between Magnus and Mortarion at the Ullanor Triumph and Mortarion makes a snide remark about things being brought to the Emperor's attention. Nikea must have happened mere weeks or months after Ullanor. So the Emperor was no longer leading the Crusade, but neither was he returned to Terra.

[Chris*ta]

Looking at that Fulgrim model, I really want to build a 40k-scale version, maybe using a Trygon as the base? Just for the sheer lunacy, if nothing else.

As for the Night Lords, Imperium HQ might have been naive enough to still consider them loyal, if a bit loopy; after all, the separation between the murder and mayhem in a Night Lords compliance as compared to say, a Blood Angels compliance is one of degree, not direction.

You could use this as a base for the top half maybe:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120216006_GorghonNEW01.jpg

Or there's this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120212009_BloodwrackShrineNEW03.jpg

Or this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99800112013_SslythNEW_01.jpg

If you're willing to make it smaller.

[DWest]

I'd probably go with the bull-guy for the top half; his Epic model is mounted on a standard 25mm base, which is slightly bigger than an Epic-scale Land Raider, so a 40k-scale Daemon Fulgrim would have to be at least as tall and as wide (not as bulky though) as a Knight.

[MaxToreador]

Concerning the Night Lords, as simple as I can make it, were sent to the DSM for 2 reasons:

#1 What made them unique as a legion. Curze and his legion as a whole believed in both peace through fear of absolute punishment and in absolute corruption. Literally they were Hell; if you even thought of betraying the Imperium you WOULD receive the harshest punishment they could think up. To them there was no escape, they would find you eventually. The kicker being they knew no one was without corruption, it was just a matter of time. This all being the case they were perfect for quelling an Astartes rebellion as their harshness gauge is permanently set to 11 and they would not question that an Astartes (even a Primarch) could fall unlike all the other legions. In a way they always were chaos (lil c) and believed in Chaos even if they didn't know a damned thing about warp creatures and Daemons.

#2 Konrad was already on the penance train right behind Magnus, due to the whole 'we're so metal that when we pass through a system forgeworlds shut down to let their workers have a last day with their families just in case we're cranky' thing. Two birds, single stone mindset. They stop the traitor legions while sustaining heavy losses? Fine, gives the galaxy some time to recover and makes the Emp's job of bringing the NightStalker to heel a little easier.

As to Their Fall:
The folly was in that Nostromo's #1 son was never as close to his dad as the rest of his kin were and saw this ****e coming. Plus the Magnus isn't the only psyker primarch issue, as Grimdark Batman can apparently see the future too bit. So what's a guard dog who's bit too many candy thief's hands off too do? Hatch a long winded plan to teach dear old dad that the Night Lord way was right that requires his own murder-suicide. In the end he knew he and his legion were hypocrites, their own punishment staved off till everyone else's could be dished out.

[YorkNecromancer]

I'd probably go with the bull-guy for the top half; his Epic model is mounted on a standard 25mm base, which is slightly bigger than an Epic-scale Land Raider, so a 40k-scale Daemon Fulgrim would have to be at least as tall and as wide (not as bulky though) as a Knight.

Ghorgon body + Trygon tail.

As for the face? That's where it kind of falls down. Maybe the Avatar of Khaine from the Dark Elf shrine, hevaily modified?

[Dlatrex]

Concerning the Night Lords, as simple as I can make it, were sent to the DSM for 2 reasons:

#1 What made them unique as a legion. Curze and his legion as a whole believed in both peace through fear of absolute punishment and in absolute corruption. Literally they were Hell; if you even thought of betraying the Imperium you WOULD receive the harshest punishment they could think up. To them there was no escape, they would find you eventually. The kicker being they knew no one was without corruption, it was just a matter of time. This all being the case they were perfect for quelling an Astartes rebellion as their harshness gauge is permanently set to 11 and they would not question that an Astartes (even a Primarch) could fall unlike all the other legions. In a way they always were chaos (lil c) and believed in Chaos even if they didn't know a damned thing about warp creatures and Daemons.

#2 Konrad was already on the penance train right behind Magnus, due to the whole 'we're so metal that when we pass through a system forgeworlds shut down to let their workers have a last day with their families just in case we're cranky' thing. Two birds, single stone mindset. They stop the traitor legions while sustaining heavy losses? Fine, gives the galaxy some time to recover and makes the Emp's job of bringing the NightStalker to heel a little easier.

As to Their Fall:
The folly was in that Nostromo's #1 son was never as close to his dad as the rest of his kin were and saw this ****e coming. Plus the Magnus isn't the only psyker primarch issue, as Grimdark Batman can apparently see the future too bit. So what's a guard dog who's bit too many candy thief's hands off too do? Hatch a long winded plan to teach dear old dad that the Night Lord way was right that requires his own murder-suicide. In the end he knew he and his legion were hypocrites, their own punishment staved off till everyone else's could be dished out.

This is a great explanation and the type of Nightlord insight I was hoping to glean. This goes a great deal of the way to assuaging my original concerns about having the Nightlords viewed as loyalists, right until the turn. Now we are still missing Monologues for Konrad, as well as Mortarion explaining their own justification for coming to Horus. It would be nice to see what he promised them in a future book, although not essential. The Authors have done a great job of painting the Traitors as tragic figures for the most part being 'tricked' (seduced?) into Chaos...but I wonder if Konrad falls into the camp of Alpharius, where he has full knowledge of the crime he is committing, but as you say will execute punishment on everyone else first, and then end with his own atonement.

I wish the Prince of Crows had shown a little bit more of his motive for attacking The Lion...could we just chalk it up at that point to desperation and survival?

[DrLove42]

Looking at that Fulgrim model, I really want to build a 40k-scale version, maybe using a Trygon as the base? Just for the sheer lunacy, if nothing else.

As for the Night Lords, Imperium HQ might have been naive enough to still consider them loyal, if a bit loopy; after all, the separation between the murder and mayhem in a Night Lords compliance as compared to say, a Blood Angels compliance is one of degree, not direction.

If you can be patient, FW have said they will be doing models of all the traitor primarch's after they go all deamon

[m3g4tr0n]

It'll be a long wait though.

[DWest]

If you can be patient, FW have said they will be doing models of all the traitor primarch's after they go all deamon
At least part of the purpose was to see what I could pull off myself, though it will probably end up looking sad by comparison.

It'll be a long wait though.
Considering how quickly FW turns things out vs. how quickly I bring about one of my crazy ideas, it might end up being the same time either way.

[Stibbok]

Has a book been released on how the Death Guard turn to Nurgle?

[Dlatrex]

Has a book been released on how the Death Guard turn to Nurgle?

Flight of the Eisenstein is the most obvious book to discuss the turning-traitor of the Death Guard, although by that point there has already been corruption taking root.

There is also the short story 'The Lion' which covers some background, more specifically about Captain Typhon

[Wolfshade]

Maybe they should have re-named The Lion to How Typhus Got His First Pustule

[Lord-Boofhead]

Ghorgon body + Trygon tail.

As for the face? That's where it kind of falls down. Maybe the Avatar of Khaine from the Dark Elf shrine, hevaily modified?

Orion?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Orion-King-in-the-Woods

- - - Updated - - -


I imagine that Curze's apotheosis is going to read like Rorschach's therapy scene in Watchmen, in that he'll have sacrificed so much, and will be so far gone that there will be nothing left for him but to ascend, likely as a galactic practical joke on the part of the Octed.

Um you do realise that Night Haunter never ascends? He's killed while still mortal by an Assassin.

[Mr Mystery]

Which he clearly allowed to happen. That's pretty much all we know, apart from him being seemingly prophetic (though like all good prophecies, they're inherently self fulfilling. Someone somewhere will wish to see them come to pass, and work at it. So whether he was in fact seeing the future? Who knows!)

[Lord-Boofhead]

He Prophisised that "My Father Will Kill me." so when the assassin as Instriment of the Emperor comes to kill him he lets her kill him.

[Dlatrex]

Well, I just read "Vulkan Lives" and that helped elucidate Konrad's position even better! I should have just waited till I had the book in hand to post my original inquiry. Lol.

So, based on his discussion with Vulkan, it seems that Curze has been negatively impacted by the warp (causing or in conjunction with mental instability). This coupled with his limited precognition has lead him to be a nihilist. As a result I think we can paraphrase Baudelaire: the greatest trick Chaos pulled on Curze was to make him think there was no free will.

With almost all others, Chaos lures the primarchs with promises, usually playing to their pride. Magnus was seeking a cure, Lorgar was seeking an object of worship, Fulgrim wanted perfection, Angron wanted vengence and respect, Mortarion and Horus wanted power, and Perturabo needed absolution (or at least acceptance).

So the Alpha/Omega twins also seem to have been tricked by the idea that events HAD to play out in a certain direction. Curze seems to fall in this camp, although it appears to have taken place pretty much from the day he was 'born'. I'd still like to see how the conversation went down with Horus, to bring him specifically to the cause of the rebels, even if it was a fait accompli that Curze was going to side against the Emperor!

[Thornblood]

I would to second Dlatrex. Also, in Unremembered empire you get along from curze's point of view.
SPOILERS
At the beginning of the book it appears curze gets visions of the future, and he believes that he simply has to fulfill the visions. I don't think he believes in any higher powers (emperor or chaos gods or whatever), and so he blindly does what the visions show him, and possibly believes it is all from his innate abilities.

Later, curze says the visions sometimes lie, and he has to pick the right visions, and sort through the ones which are 'lies'. How much are these visions just possible futures and curze's actions make them a reality, and how much curze believes there is only one path and other visions are lies is important. Also, if curze fails, or things don't go to plan, he thinks he picked the wrong vision, but rather than holding his own decision-making at fault, he blames the vision and says it lies. Curze is into accusing others and blaming others, or circumstance over considering himself (at least at this point).

I think its important to consider that curze isn't th I making through his actions, merely picking from multiple choice visions. Also, as divination is a psychic th ok ng, I th ok no it's very easy for him to be manipulated by chaos.

Also, he's mentally unhinged, angry, sadistic, manic depressive, with obsessive behaviour issues concerning murder, and he enjoys playing with others psyches by out witting them and causing terror, which helps with his superiority complex (he also has an inferiority complex, Depending what end of the manic depressive spectrum he is currently at).

[Thornblood]

Id like to change that 3rd section to say "I think its important to consider that curze thinking through his actions, merely picking from multiple choice visions. Also, as divination is a psychic th ok ng, I th ok no it's very easy for him to be manipulated by chaos."

Im on a kindle fire, and the edit post thing dosnt work, and the autocorrect is the bane of my life.

[banicrhys]

Flight of the Eisenstein is the most obvious book to discuss the turning-traitor of the Death Guard, although by that point there has already been corruption taking root.

There is also the short story 'The Lion' which covers some background, more specifically about Captain TyphonThat never really shows us their mindset like Fulgrim, AE and Betrayer do.