Traitor Guard - or Not?

[Denzark]

A lot of discussion on this new allies matrix points out that it is goodbye to traitor guard. Also people debating on main page about how there is no traitor guard. They are actually 'Lost and Damned' etc.

I think Lost and Damned is just a catch-all description for rebel/traitor scratch armies of cultists, muties, and other scum and villainy. I think traitor guard exist and would come under 'lost and damned' but at the higher end of equipment and training scale.

In the same way that Gaunts Ghosts sees IG and PDF become fairly interchangeable, I would say the same series 'Blood Pact' and Zoican forces are analogous to traitor guard.

So anyhoo, splitting hairs about the correct nomenclature for formally trained and equipped formations of IG/PDF who go traitor, in the same way we never hear about 'Adeptus Astartes Traitoris' - but we know there are traitor/chaos marines/legionnaires, the term 'Astra Militarum' will not go together with traitor - it is specifically the case that whilst in the Astartes or Militarum, you are on the side of the Imperium. So actually quite fitting that those are not the codexes to represent traitor versions of those agencies.

I would say Traitor Guard is alive and well - but you are in the grounds of unbound or FW lists (incidentally we will have to wait and see how 7th nerfs the allies vs FW matrix available as a FW download - vraksian renegades are de facto traitor guard).

A delicious possibility is that if GW will produce random e-codexes for little heard of Red-jobby traitors, they could conceivably produce an e-codex that allows you to traitor up the AM codex with no commissars, no Ogryns (notoriously loyal) and other Chaos specific aspects.

Thoughts anyone?

[daboarder]

Unbound doesnt solve the problem.

Unbound are still bound by the allies chart.

Come the apocalypse MAY ally.

If you do so then you may not come within 12 of each other (according to rumours) This makes come the apocalypse unplayable in any form of practical sense, baring the most obscene abuses.

Ergo, Practically speaking, unbound armies are still limited by the allies matrix and IG/Chaos lists are dead.

FW has the ancient servants lists, lists that are missing pretty much any of the rules that makes IG playable in the current edition, not to mention getting FW games depends entirely upon your location so is not a viable or practical solution to the problem.

So yeah, looks like GW basically killed Traitor guard again

[Caitsidhe]

Unbound doesnt solve the problem.

Unbound are still bound by the allies chart.

Come the apocalypse MAY ally.

If you do so then you may not come within 12 of each other (according to rumours) This makes come the apocalypse unplayable in any form of practical sense, baring the most obscene abuses.

Ergo, Practically speaking, unbound armies are still limited by the allies matrix and IG/Chaos lists are dead.

FW has the ancient servants lists, lists that are missing pretty much any of the rules that makes IG playable in the current edition, not to mention getting FW games depends entirely upon your location so is not a viable or practical solution to the problem.

So yeah, looks like GW basically killed Traitor guard again

Yep and in doing so lost a lot of sales to me. I was building a Traitor Guard contingent, but those will be up on the block and no more will I be buying. :D

[ChacoStylez]

No so fast Caitsidhe, rumors are going around FW is making an update for its traitor guard forces, I'm sure with a little patience your force would still work out.

[Caitsidhe]

No so fast Caitsidhe, rumors are going around FW is making an update for its traitor guard forces, I'm sure with a little patience your force would still work out.

I hope so. I spent a lot of time making custom Sabres. :D

[Morgrim]

It'd be dead in the sense of no IG and daemons on the same table, but is that a scenario that is likely in the fluff anyway? I recall when Siege of Vraks did chaos the first wave was humans (guard equiv) and some scattered CSM, and that most of the humans had been beaten back or mass numbers slaughtered well before the first actual daemons showed up. (And that said daemons showing up had a lot to do with the deaths weakening the veil to let them in.)

You could still have a IG army with chaos iconography and call your psykers witches and use Malfic Daemonology to summon bound daemon troops to aid you, and that seems more fitting with the fluff than allying the two directly. There are cultists in the CSM list if you want human footsloggers for a later invasion stage.

[Anggul]

Yeah, what with the updated versions of Imperial Armour that have been coming out, I expect Siege of Vraks will get an update which would revive traitor Guard.

[This Dave]

It'd be dead in the sense of no IG and daemons on the same table, but is that a scenario that is likely in the fluff anyway? I recall when Siege of Vraks did chaos the first wave was humans (guard equiv) and some scattered CSM, and that most of the humans had been beaten back or mass numbers slaughtered well before the first actual daemons showed up. (And that said daemons showing up had a lot to do with the deaths weakening the veil to let them in.)

You could still have a IG army with chaos iconography and call your psykers witches and use Malfic Daemonology to summon bound daemon troops to aid you, and that seems more fitting with the fluff than allying the two directly. There are cultists in the CSM list if you want human footsloggers for a later invasion stage.

That's actually quite a good idea. It fits the theme of desperate traitors desperately making deals to try and help them on the battlefield.

[Charon]

Just play IG and let your CSM "counts as" Space Marines. Good representation of Legion rules and/or Marks, no downside for combining forces, Chaos Knights possible, Daemons possible. Just dont play CSM as CSM and you are way better off.

[Darren Richardson]

wasn't it rumoured somewhere that FW was doing an IA book solely for all the Chaos models they have put out over the years (like with vols 1 & 2)?

I expect if they do they may have an updated army list in there....

[Archon]

It is very sad too see, that the allie chart is changed too harsh. From being too lax. A little bit of fine adjustment was neccessary but they pulled out the big tools and make some csm/ig (am) comibes become obsolet - after only 2 years.

Traitor guard (or now astra miltantum) is very cool and gives lot of opportunites for converting - it is also very fine for "forging a narritve". But now - the must clump all the imperial factions togehter. Sad for a lot of traitor guard / csm comibs like and sad for Iron Warriors - now the lost their basilisk ruleswise again.

I liked the old version with separate Grey Knights being no ones darling - that was kinda stylish. It were enough to simply kill the silly ones like SM & Tau or Eldar & Tau in BB status.

[Power Klawz]

The allies matrix is basically just a bunch of arbitrary distinctions that have little to nothing to do with the established fluff anyways, so why even bother using it?

It's also not as though GW puts these limitations on allies due to game balance issues, see any number of completely broken battle brother combos that exist currently and will continue to exist in 7th.

So if its not fluff reasons that keep your peanut butter traitor guard away from your chocolate chaos space marines, and its certainly not game balance concerns... why even care? Just do it.