Who Are The New Psychic Masters?

[Blood Shadow]

Was just thinking that taking as many psykers as possible is going to be important for power denial....

The rumours/ confirmations suggest D6 each + 1 for each Mastery level in your army...

SM get screwed here a little without taking Ally options....Tigi is a must I think

Guard now have a use for cheap Wyrdvanes especially if they get access to summoning powers...I believe they can get 2 Astropaths, 3 Primaris (can be lvl 2) 3 squads of wyrds...

I make that up to +11 WCPs

But then I got thinking about GK....!!!???

Coteaz +up to 6 henchman squad consisting of at least 1 battle Psyker, + up to 3 from elites +2 from another lvl2 HQ, + up to 3 from fast and +3 heavy.. Now that's not probably feasible at any points level....but that's still up to 19 and that's without allying to oneself...

To be fair I think it's great if the GK can shut down Psyker lists....

Is this broken already lol?

[DarkLink]

GK, Daemons, CSM, Nids, and Eldar can all easily get large numbers of psykers, thought the latter three need to design their list around it to get really crazy numbers. Daemons and GK get it the easiest.

[Power Klawz]

Without knowing the power level of the new psychic powers this isn't really an approachable topic yet. However if the powers remain reasonably close to where they are now, or perhaps get a bit stronger even, I don't think the impact will be as hefty as you suspect.

First of all, there will be less powers going off on any given turn (per psyker) than there are currently. Lists like Eldar and some daemon builds can happily churn out 8, 10 or more psychic powers a turn to devastating effect, buffing everything and flinging around mind bullets.

With the new rumored mechanics this sort of thing will be almost impossible to accomplish, and an opponent (even one without any psykers of their own) will have a much bigger say in what does happen.

To have even odds of a power going through you're going to want to throw 2 dice per warp charge cost of the power at it. If you REALLY need a power to go off you might be looking at 3 times the cost or more (if you cray cray) So lets take a look at something like a double farseer list with a warlock council and a few more warlocks in guardian squads throughout the army, lets say a conservative 12 mastery levels between them all.

That's 13-18 warp charge points per turn. That sounds like a lot doesn't it? But how many powers can you get out of that? If we're talking using minimum dice on warp charge 1 powers, 6-9. Now, 9 is being very generous and doesn't allow for any higher power level casts at all. Start throwing in ML 2 or even 3 (if eldar get access to any level 3 powers, who knows what the new abilities will do or cost as I mentioned at the beginning) and the number plummets dramatically. Still, that's 9 powers that used to be 12, all ready a 33% reduction in efficacy and your chance to fail at casting these powers has gone up as well (if you only throw 2 dice at them.)

Now the opposing player also gets some dispell dice. So say you tried to cast 9, lets say 7 made it through, now your opponent gets to decides which 1 or 2 of those 7 he will contest. Does he care overly much about that warlock casting conceal on that unit of guardians camping out in a forest near the board edge? Probably not this turn. Is he ok with you healing up that Wraithkinght with only one wound left? Probably not. Does he want that unit of dire avengers about to wreak havoc on his newly deep struck terminators to get guided? No, no he does not want that.

Now he gets to throw as many dice as he wants at stopping the pivotal power from going off, now he gets a say in whether or not that unit goes from good to great and wins the game.

If anything this is an overall nerf to psychics and gives non psyker armies far more potent defenses than they've ever had.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think that there are three factors that will determine psychic dominance in 7th Edition

1: Availability of Mastery Levels. The more MLs you can acquire for cheap - especially while still being Battle-Forged, if the advantages to that sort of army prove to be significant - the better off you will be. In this sense, the armies where psykers are available for cheap and in multiple slots, like Daemons who can buy units of pink horrors and put MLs on their Daemon princes, or IG where everything with legs instead of treads is cheap, will benefit. Armies whose psykers are more expensive, like most of the power armor codices where they start at 100 points, will suffer in this sense.

2: Psykers with Multiple Utility. The caveat to "acquire all the Mastery Levels!" is that if a psyker is personally a useless model, you are pouring a lot of points into something that might not help you if the dice gods frown, or if your opponent gets lucky, or if he's not in the right place at the right time, or if you guess badly when you pick your discipline. Remember that reliably getting a power off will probably take about twice the power's Warp Charge cost in dice. The easier it is for an army to cram Mastery Levels onto models that are otherwise useful, the easier it will be for them to acquire those Warp Charges without sacrificing overall effectiveness. This factor tends to favor the power armor armies, whose librarians are pretty decent in close combat at least. Blood Angels in particular, with their ability to put MLs on dreadnoughts, will have an advantage. I'm pretty sure that Daemons can put MLs on their Daemon princes, which will help them in the same way.

3: Psychic Denial. A strong psychic offense is an important factor as well. This factor will spring from your ability to bring psykers with a good number of MLs, special wargear like psychic hoods, psykers who want to get close to the enemy (there's a rumor that proximity to the enemy psyker improves your chances...) and special rules like Adamantium Will will help here.

In other words (this is based on guesswork, fluff, and my highly imperfect knowledge of some codices, so feel free to correct me)...

ML Availability
Strong
• Daemons
• Eldar
• Imperial Guard
• Blood Angels
Weak
• Space Marines

Psyker Utility
Strong
• Daemons
• Blood Angels
• Space Marines
Weak
• Imperial Guard
• Tyranids

Psychic Denial
Strong
• Space Marines (All Kinds)
• Tyranids
Weak
• Imperial Guard

[Houghten]

Psychic Denial
Strong
• Space Marines (All Kinds)
• Tyranids
Weak
• Imperial Guard

Let's not forget the Sororitas with their army-wide Adamantium Will.

[ElectricPaladin]

Let's not forget the Sororitas with their army-wide Adamantium Will.

I'd forgotten that they had that...

[daboarder]

Not zoanthropes thats for sure.

They'll net dominion for free which is nice....but they'll devour your warpcharge budget just to shoot which sucks

edit: chaos could probably be in the ML department, able to throw down 9 MLs in an Bound (baring SCs)

[DarkLink]

I think that there are three factors that will determine psychic dominance in 7th Edition

1: Availability of Mastery Levels. The more MLs you can acquire for cheap - especially while still being Battle-Forged, if the advantages to that sort of army prove to be significant - the better off you will be. In this sense, the armies where psykers are available for cheap and in multiple slots, like Daemons who can buy units of pink horrors and put MLs on their Daemon princes, or IG where everything with legs instead of treads is cheap, will benefit. Armies whose psykers are more expensive, like most of the power armor codices where they start at 100 points, will suffer in this sense.

2: Psykers with Multiple Utility. The caveat to "acquire all the Mastery Levels!" is that if a psyker is personally a useless model, you are pouring a lot of points into something that might not help you if the dice gods frown, or if your opponent gets lucky, or if he's not in the right place at the right time, or if you guess badly when you pick your discipline. Remember that reliably getting a power off will probably take about twice the power's Warp Charge cost in dice. The easier it is for an army to cram Mastery Levels onto models that are otherwise useful, the easier it will be for them to acquire those Warp Charges without sacrificing overall effectiveness. This factor tends to favor the power armor armies, whose librarians are pretty decent in close combat at least. Blood Angels in particular, with their ability to put MLs on dreadnoughts, will have an advantage. I'm pretty sure that Daemons can put MLs on their Daemon princes, which will help them in the same way.

3: Psychic Denial. A strong psychic offense is an important factor as well. This factor will spring from your ability to bring psykers with a good number of MLs, special wargear like psychic hoods, psykers who want to get close to the enemy (there's a rumor that proximity to the enemy psyker improves your chances...) and special rules like Adamantium Will will help here.

In other words (this is based on guesswork, fluff, and my highly imperfect knowledge of some codices, so feel free to correct me)...

ML Availability
Strong
• Daemons
• Eldar
• Imperial Guard
• Blood Angels
Weak
• Space Marines

Psyker Utility
Strong
• Daemons
• Blood Angels
• Space Marines
Weak
• Imperial Guard
• Tyranids

Psychic Denial
Strong
• Space Marines (All Kinds)
• Tyranids
Weak
• Imperial Guard

You're forgetting Grey Knights. Every single unit is at least ML1, and better yet doesnt rely on the offensive use of their powers too frequently. They'll have a huge pool available for Deny (in addition to their other anti-psyker buffs). They have access to strong powers, and the pool of dice to make use of them.

[ElectricPaladin]

You're forgetting Grey Knights. Every single unit is at least ML1, and better yet doesnt rely on the offensive use of their powers too frequently. They'll have a huge pool available for Deny (in addition to their other anti-psyker buffs). They have access to strong powers, and the pool of dice to make use of them.

Thank you - that's a good point.

[ElectricPaladin]

Speaking of the Emperor's most holy Inquisition… if you're fielding a psyker Inquisitor, even a single psyker is possibly the best warband purchase you can make. He's a warp charge on a stick! As Inquisitors are generally ML 1, that single backup dancer doubles his boss's psychic power!

[MajorWesJanson]

You're forgetting Grey Knights. Every single unit is at least ML1, and better yet doesnt rely on the offensive use of their powers too frequently. They'll have a huge pool available for Deny (in addition to their other anti-psyker buffs). They have access to strong powers, and the pool of dice to make use of them.

Also for Grey Knights, I expect they will do well with the sanctic half of daemonology. It seems purpose made for them, and probably some of the GK current powers will shift over to Sanctic powers.

[ElectricPaladin]

Also for Grey Knights, I expect they will do well with the sanctic half of daemonology. It seems purpose made for them, and probably some of the GK current powers will shift over to Sanctic powers.

Have the Santic powers been spoiled yet? Or is this (reasonable) conjecture?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, you want a couple of psykers to actually cast powers, and then a bunch of warp charge monkeys (and if they have decent powers too, that's just a nice little bonus). The Seer Council can do a decent job, CSM can get a pretty good number of powers, and Nids can get a lot, but it's Grey Knights and Daemons that can get truly absurd numbers of psykers, and they can do it within the confines of the styles of lists players already take. You don't need to rewrite your list to try and fit in psykers, you probably already have ~10 warp charges in there already.

[daboarder]

give aspiring sorcerers a nice little reason to exist, they can be used as batteries to fuel your ML3 sorcerers in a chaos list.

Would be nice to run an army with 3 ML3 sorcerers, 1ksons troops and a unit of cultists. Back em up with some obliterators and your cooking.

[Lord-Boofhead]

GK, Daemons, CSM, Nids, and Eldar can all easily get large numbers of psykers, thought the latter three need to design their list around it to get really crazy numbers. Daemons and GK get it the easiest.

This is pretty well what I've said elsewhere.

Also Add Astra Millitarum to that list of can build a Psyker Spam list if they want. And Inquisition as wel.

Also I suspect that the Cortez GK Shenanigans will be going away very, very soon.

- - - Updated - - -


give aspiring sorcerers a nice little reason to exist, they can be used as batteries to fuel your ML3 sorcerers in a chaos list.

Would be nice to run an army with 3 ML3 sorcerers, 1ksons troops and a unit of cultists. Back em up with some obliterators and your cooking.

It will be nice for them to be viable while still fluffy, at least till we get a Codex Supplement that gives them Hellbrutes and Termies again...

- - - Updated - - -


Psychic Denial
Strong
• Space Marines (All Kinds)
• Tyranids
Weak
• Imperial Guard

Add Inquisition to the Strong list, Null Rod and all.

I'm also willing to bet that the Crons will get a bunch of anti-psyker bling in the new Dex.

Pariah Inquisitorial Henchmen would be cool too when the get back to that dex and give us a proper hard copy.

[Houghten]

get back to that dex and give us a proper hard copy.

...I misread that last word.

[MajorWesJanson]

Pariah Inquisitorial Henchmen would be cool too when the get back to that dex and give us a proper hard copy.

Yes. Blanks as a henchman type would be awesome. Maybe let them "eat" power dice if they are within range of an enemy psyker

Also, Pariahs would suddenly have a major use again for Necrons, and they could bring them back. They already have models for them to boot!

[ElectricPaladin]

...I misread that last word.

Yeah. That's where the D-Weapons are.

[Morgrim]

I think Crucibles of Malediction and other specifically anti-psyker weaponry could become popular.

[John Bower]

I don't think that only Psykers will affect your ability to shut down powers; from what I read in WD this week Shadow in the Warp is going to cause more possibility of 'perils', so that sounds like it could be nasty.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Also, Pariahs would suddenly have a major use again for Necrons, and they could bring them back. They already have models for them to boot!

Was thinking the same myself.

[Demonus]

Yep just do an alteration to Lychguard or Praetorians in the new book and make them worth taking.

[legalsmash]

There's a few armies left out of there where psychic powers are the method by which the army works.

I would like it if they determined that demon powers were or were not psychic powers requiring testing right off the bat, and give a distance to which the other player can interfere with blessings. The all table psychic hoods of 5th were ridiculous to an extreme in my opinion. If you are within 24, ala space wolf rune weapon, fine, interfere and deny the witch away with blessings, but there should be a limit to the degree of interference possible, in my opinion at extreme distance. Use of power versus denial of power, at least to me, should be heavily dependent on the level of the user versus the denier moreso than "how many level 1s do you have." For example, I don't think that a wyrdvane acting alone should have a 75% chance of stopping eldrad casting guide, or tigurius casting force dome or something for instance. It doesn't make sense

I'd really hope that they thought this whole thing out carefully, given the amount of crazy that occurred over the KIND of power, and the phase it was supposed to happen in and whatnot. I really like that there will now be a definitive "time for psychic stuff" and I hope that they thought it through enough to make it intricate, yet playable.

[Mad Cat]

My current 1850 GK army has Coteaz, ML 3 GK Librarian, 5x10 GKSS in Psychic rhinos, 5 interceptors and a henchman unit that can have a spyker in there I suppose so that makes 1D6+22 casting dice if I combat squad. I only use warpquake early in the game against drop pod armies etc and hammerhand only for say 2 units in combat so the rest of the psy dice get funneled through the HQ Psykers.

I imagine the Aegis rule that grey knights get (-1 Ld for psykers targeting GKs) will be FAQed into something else such as adamantine will since you don't need leadership anymore to cast. With D6+22 dispel dice and a level 3 psyker with a hood and the aegis rule we should be pretty psyker proof.

[Caitsidhe]

My current 1850 GK army has Coteaz, ML 3 GK Librarian, 5x10 GKSS in Psychic rhinos, 5 interceptors and a henchman unit that can have a spyker in there I suppose so that makes 1D6+22 casting dice if I combat squad. I only use warpquake early in the game against drop pod armies etc and hammerhand only for say 2 units in combat so the rest of the psy dice get funneled through the HQ Psykers.

I imagine the Aegis rule that grey knights get (-1 Ld for psykers targeting GKs) will be FAQed into something else such as adamantine will since you don't need leadership anymore to cast. With D6+22 dispel dice and a level 3 psyker with a hood and the aegis rule we should be pretty psyker proof.

Even if your number are slightly off based on whatever odd tweaks they make for certain things, yes you should be extremely defensive. HOWEVER, I fully expect they to implement the irresistible force rule (with some new name just to make it confusing) so that a spell cast so many 6s cannot be stopped.

[Tomgar]

Dark Eldar are a wee bit shafted (at least until they inevitably gain greater denial abilities in their update) since they don't have access to Psykers or bonuses to denial.

[DarkLink]

Yeah. That's where the D-Weapons are.

The D-Impaler is the best weapon in the game, hands down, ever.

[White Tiger88]

So its still *Tzeentch smash penny mortals* in this edition too?

[qwerty3666]

Dark Eldar are a wee bit shafted (at least until they inevitably gain greater denial abilities in their update) since they don't have access to Psykers or bonuses to denial.

Lady M will become compulsory