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Mystery.Shadow
01-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Article stolen from:

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html

Makes good reading, for those of you who do not like links, the story follows:

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Economics of Warhammer 40K by Robert Van Pelt

“Prices are going up? I will never buy anything else from Games Workshop.”

“I am selling my army and quitting the game.”

Do phrases like that sound familiar? I know I have heard them on many occasions, both from people at my local game store and on the Internet. Have you ever felt that way? The thought has crossed my mind at least once.

Every so often, GW hikes up the prices on some or all of their models and then that is followed by the laments of those who feel that the prices are too high and they are being ripped off. But is GW justified in their price hikes?

Throughout this article I hope to find some answers to these questions. Mr. Kilgore, the owner of this site, has addressed some of these concerns. Others have offered good advice at how to make the hobby less of burden on the pocket.

I hope to tackle this issue in a somewhat different way. I intend to take a more in-depth look at exactly how much it costs to produce a model and how GW prices stack up in the larger world of economics.

Who am I to attempt such a feat? By night, I make my rounds among the gaming community playing RPG’s, miniature war games, MMORPG’s, and first-person shooters, along with the occasional board game. But obviously that isn’t my day job. I am a graduate from the University of Toledo in Mechanical Engineering and have hands-on, practical experience with various manufacturing processes, including injection molding. Another facet to the engineering profession is heavily involved in economics. Engineers are responsible for everything from planning budgets, to sourcing suppliers, and performing quality analyses. Ultimately, this article will take the form of a small project analysis, studying the costs of production as well as the costs further along the logistics line of the product.

As I start, let me be very upfront in saying that throughout this article, I have made some assumptions based on common knowledge, my own experience, or through good advice. Wherever these assumptions are, I will point them out and explain my justifications for them. Additionally, any factual information I use will always come along with a reference to the source so that it can be verified.

One question that may come to your mind is that some of this information probably could have been easier to obtain from GW. That may be true in some cases, but in others they would probably not disclose it. I am just going to avoid that hassle and independently research everything I need. Like I said with the assumptions, some of the information will be close but not exact, and I will justify its use.

I am going to frame this article as a narrative which will follow the entire life of a particular model from its origins as a design and a lump of raw material to the store shelves. The goal will be to accurately portray how much that model costs to manufacture. After that, I will look at the bigger picture of how that model fits in the global economy and how GW’s pricing and business practices compare to its peers. Are these ambitious goals? You bet! I hope to either substantiate what people complain about or to completely debunk those people as naysayers.

The model I am choosing to follow with this narrative is the Space Marine Land Raider. I am choosing this model because it is all plastic, which simplifies the manufacturing analysis; it has several sprues of components that compose the model; and it has incurred a price hike within the last few years.

Design Costs
The first stage in a model’s life is the design of that model, consisting of concept sketches and prototype modeling. The major costs at this stage are of the designers who are paid to do this work. The way I perceive GW’s business practices is that they have several designers on staff and the company will assign a new product design to one or more of these designers. This is similar to how almost any major manufacturer of luxury goods operates. When Chrysler produced the new 300, they utilized their talented in-house designers to come up with the styling. When Tommy Hilfiger starts to develop a new line of clothes, they have in-house designers to start coming up with the designs and patterns.

There is no reason to think that GW would work any differently and there is some evidence in how some of their award-winning model designers are celebrities in their own right and are sought after by competitors when the leave the company. Even though the Land Raider model was designed some years ago, I will use current labor prices in this line of work as this article represents the current state of affairs, i.e. the proposed price hike in Summer 2006 with new models being released currently. I am also going to use salaries based on designers working in the United States as it proved difficult to find a good salary calculator for Britain.

Using the job title of Artist in the Salary Calculator provided by salary.com and using New York, NY as the location, the 50th percentile income was approximately $54,000 annually, which seems reasonable for an experienced individual working at GW in a highly skilled trade such as new product concept design. Obviously, the person probably does not spend all of their time on this one project, nor the entire year necessarily. I am going to make a reasonable assumption that the design process for the Land Raider was done by one person over the course of 4 months work. This adds a cost of $18,000 into the process.

Raw Material Costs
The next step is the acquisition of the raw materials, plastic in this case. Based on some initial web searches, it seems that the most likely type of plastic used by Games Workshop would be an Acetate Cellulosic, which is common in the toy industry. According to this source, the current market price in US dollars for this plastic would be 187 cents per pound, or $1.87 per pound. The weight of all components in the Land Raider model can be roughly approximated at 1 pound, which means that there is $1.87 of material in the model.

Production Costs: Capital Investments
After they have the raw material, they need the process and equipment to transform that lump, or pellets in this case, of plastic into a plastic model. This is done through injection molding. This process takes the pellets of plastic, melts them into a semi liquid state which is proportioned out into what is called a “shot” or “charge.” This is all scientifically controlled, as too large a shot creates waste and too small creates a lower quality product. The shot is “injected” into the mold through the use of a high pressure application. Take a peek here for a good rundown on the basics of injection molding.

The mold itself is a complex engineering structure. All gamers are familiar with the sprues that the parts must be clipped off of, but it is not random as to how they are laid out. In many cases, certain parts must be orientated in a certain way as to allow a better feed of material through the mold. There is also careful consideration as to where to locate the gates of each cavity, the vent holes through which air escapes, and if overflow storage is needed to completely fill cavities as they cool.

The Land Raider consists of six sprues, all of which can be combined into a single multi-cavity mold. A good overview of general cost for the mold can be found here, along with some cost savings ideas. GW most likely outsources the production of the molds, as that can require extensive machining processes.

I will use the figures presented on the Listo website and estimate the time to build the mold at 300 hours. The mold will be complex, certainly more than 50 hours, but not so much so that it takes 500 to 1000 hours to manufacture. At $60/ hour, the mold would cost $18,000 to make. However, another aspect of the mold manufacture is the design, which would be done by a tooling engineer or a qualified CAD technician. I will cut the difference between the two salary ranges ($40,000 for tooling engineer and $30,000 for CAD Tech) and use $35,000 per year or about $17 per hour. Based on my own experience with CAD design, about 40 hours of design work is a good approximation for how long it would take. This adds another $680 into the cost.

The last piece to this portion of the equation is the actual machine, consisting of the hopper, heaters, and screw drive injection system. All of that would constitute a capital expenditure and most likely the same machines are used over and over for different projects with the molds being swapped out as needed. I imagine that as the company expands, they bring new machines online; for this model, an existing machine was used and the cost would have been long-since absorbed into the cost structure of the business, so I am not going to add any cost here. If I was looking at a whole new business unit, like possibly when they added Lord of the Rings to their offerings, then new capital equipment would have been a definite factor.


This section has used three basic assumptions. The first is that GW does their own injection molding. The second is that they outsource the manufacture of their molds. As such, I won’t be using the cost-per-unit examples listed on the Listo site, as that is for their complete service, which includes the molding process as well. The last assumption that I will make here is that the mold will have a very long life relative to the product life. That means the mold will not need to be replaced—a reasonable assumption for plastic molding, as the wear and tear is much less than metal molding.

Production Costs: Labor Investment
Once the equipment is running and the raw material is ready, labor cost is the next consideration. The equipment will generally only require a single operator per shift, possibly even less than one operator, as most of these machines are very autonomous and can be left on their own. Using a general industry standard of $8 per hour for an injection molding operator is a good approximation, as it is not a highly skilled operation but generally commands more than minimum wage. But taking into account a single operator running multiple machines and the post molding work, like inspection and cleaning, a single hourly rate of $12 an hour is more appropriate. This would include one inspector and half an operator. Some of you may think it is odd to think of “half an operator,” but it’s a common business concept. If it helps your understanding, think of it instead as a part-time operator.

Packing Costs
Another cost in the manufacture of the model is packaging (see below). Most likely, the artwork for the packaging is done in-house and the actual manufacture of their packaging is outsourced. I found a company online that does custom packing in bulk quantities located here. If purchased in lots of 1000 boxes, the cost is $3 per box. This seems like it might be high at first glance, but keep in mind that this company also will do the design at no charge along with lamination, etc. So I will use $3 per model as the cost of packaging.


Transportation and Other Costs
The last cost exclusive to this one model is the transportation cost to ship it to stores. Based on the UPS website, the cost per package looks to be about $0.50 per package.

There are several additional costs that I am not going to detail here. One of these is the actual cost of the retail space. This actually only applies to GW stores, as that is cost incurred to them, but since the same price is paid at both GW and non-GW stores, I am going to assume those costs are eaten up elsewhere in their business. This is also abundantly true with the sheer number of online sales replacing in store sales. The cost of running their injection molding machine, such as power consumption, is negligible on a per-package basis, as is the cost of warehouse space, especially if they run a lean operation that minimizes warehousing costs. Lastly, I am also ignoring any kind of excise or customs fees, as GW has moved enough of its production facilities into the United States.

How Many to Make?
The next step in this narrative is to determine the costs of making these models, which is largely dependent on how many models they make. A lot of economic science goes into the determination of how many of a particular model to make. The first key is market demand, which is based on how many people will potentially be buying these either because they play an army that uses one or because they have a desire to collect one.

As more are produced, some costs, like raw materials and shipping, remain constant, while others, like initial design and equipment, actually decrease on a per-unit basis. However, this doesn’t mean that as many as possible should be created, because an overproduction will actually raise costs, namely in warehousing.

The one sticking point in writing this section is that no GW rep in his right mind would tell me how many Land Raiders they sell a year; therefore, I haven’t even bothered asking. Instead, I am going to approach this part of the analysis from the other end, with some good old fashioned reverse engineering.

Let’s start with their current sales price of $55.00. According to Games Workshop’s listing of retailers, there are 865 stores in the US that sell their product. A safe assumption would be that these stores would sell an average of 20 Land Raiders the first year they were out and possibly about 10 per year after that. Using five years as how long they have been around brings the total number sold to 51,900, with total revenue of $2,854,500.

Following is a tabulated calculation of the total cost of producing these models over the 5-year period and then a breakdown of the cost per model. The labor cost was calculated from the per-hour unit cost and computed over a 40-hour week for five years. My assumption here is that GW is not a high quantity facility that will run multiple shifts for 24-hour, 7 day-a-week production shifts. They may have increases around the holidays or new releases, but they are not making automobiles or toothpaste. The costs for packaging, shipping, and raw plastic were calculated based on a cost per model, multiplied by the number of models total.


Cost source Unit Cost Total Cost
Initial Design $18,000.00 $18,000.00
Raw Plastic $1.87 $97,053.00
Mold $18,000.00 $18,000.00
Tooling Design $680.00 $680.00
Labor $12.00 $124,800.00
Packaging $3.00 $155,700.00
Shipping $0.50 $25,950.00
Total - $440,183.00

This result places the cost per model at $8.48, or 15.42% of the sale price. But before anyone starts rending clothes and grating teeth, this story is still not finished. During my research, I found a very good article (with the exception of no references) about the cost involved in producing an adventure roleplaying game. I feel the author did an excellent analysis of the costs of production, marketing, and sales and gives some nice insight into the exact kind of analysis I am attempting to do here. The difference is that a boxed game like that is far less costly to make than a model like this, as can be seen in the comparative costs, but note how the costs of producing each of these products as a percentage of sale price is similar.

The reason I am citing this article is it gives a good look into the other costs I have thus far not taken into account, such as the cost to the distributor and the cost to the retailer to carry the product. These two things would be impossible for me to independently research, as the amount GW pays to Alliance, their main distributor, would be confidential. Also, the fact that they both have their own stores, meaning no cost to the retailer, as well as independent stores, meaning there is a cost, complicates that calculation greatly, even if I could find out for sure what the discount to the retailer is.

So for the next part, I will use the percentages quoted in that article, but I do warn that all of his numbers are simply stated with no references other than his own experience.

Starting with that author’s stated 50-10-10 rate to the distributor, this sale price of $55.00 puts the net sale price at $22.28 after the fees paid to the distributors. I will skip production costs, since the previous sections covered that topic in much greater detail. I will use the same 7% for figuring what gets paid to the sales reps. Taking $22.28 as the wholesale price cuts the net revenue down to $20.72. For advertising costs, I am going to use the low end of the scale at 5%, because GW is a well-known brand and would not have to put as much effort into the advertising of a new Land Raider. Five percent of $22.28 is $1.11 and the net revenue is now $19.61.

I have already covered packaging, and I am not going to include interest, as GW would not be borrowing for this nor would the lost interest revenue be much of a factor in terms of their cash flow. The biggest reason for this is they have a large selection of current products that are pulling in revenue as they are launching this product. In the cited article, the author is using a brand new company with no exiting products.

Adding It All Up
So where does all this number crunching lead to? Using the net revenue before costs as $19.61 and then subtracting $8.48 for the production, packaging, and shipping costs, leaves a profit of $11.13 per model. One last cost which I have so far avoided is all the other indirect support to this product. The machine that molds the plastic requires maintenance, and that will add cost. There are employees that operate forklifts, work rework grinders for non-conforming product, and provide support throughout the company answering phones, play testing, and manning the stores. It would be a monumental task to put an exact figure on that cost.

Citing “Why Games Cost What They Do,” I could use either of the figures that Greg Costikyan suggested. The first suggestion is the overhead cost is the print cost, or production cost in this case. Subtracting the packaging and shipping costs, the overhead on a per model basis would be $4.98. The other suggestion is 30% of the expected income or wholesale price which comes to $6.68 per model. Using one of those two suggestions, the profit per model would be somewhere between $4.45 and $6.15. With the estimated volume of 51,900, the net profit would be between $230,955 and $319,185.

So there you have it! In my opinion, a net profit per model of $4.45 to $6.15 seems reasonable and appropriate, but I did also state in the beginning that I would try to determine if that much of a margin was justified, as well as the price increases.

Throughout the world of manufactured goods, there is a wide range of products available but many can be thrown into one of two categories: necessities and luxuries. Something like clothing (not Tommy Hilfiger mind you) would be a necessity, while small toy soldiers would be a luxury.

If you look at a comparison of the sales figures between necessities and luxuries, the sales volumes of necessities would be far higher. However, the profit margins would be far lower. This is simply an effect of supply and demand. Necessities have such high sales volumes because everyone needs them…well, duh. Because there is such a large potential market with high volumes, everybody wants a piece of that market, so there are a plethora of companies making things like clothes, cookware, toasters, furniture, etc. Because there are so many manufacturers in these markets, they are all competing for sales and the best way to do this is to offer lower prices through cost-cutting at every opportunity. Hence, the profits in these industries tend to be near margin, with no room for error.

The opposite is true in a luxury industry, such as waterbeds, automobiles, boats, and little toy soldiers. There is a smaller market with fewer manufacturers and less competition. Thus, you will see a higher profit margin. In fact, many companies tend to do a little of both. Think of how General Motors offers both the Chevy Cobalt and the Cadillac CTS-V. A company will offer cheaper goods with less profit margin that make up a large number of sales as well as a luxury or upgraded version that provides a higher profit margin with lower sales volume. The luxury item will tend to provide more profit, while the cheap good provides stable baseline sales revenue.


But I digress. In the manufacture of a toothbrush, I expect a profit margin of $0.05 to $0.10 per toothbrush. They only cost a few bucks and they are sold in the millions. With toy soldiers, with the much lower sales volume, I expect there to be a higher profit margin. The company itself has to be taken into account as well. With a smaller company with much less market presence, such as Steve Jackson Games, the profit margin is probably a lot lower, because they don’t have a stable base of sales to provide economic security. A larger company like GW can assume a larger profit margin because they have the market presence to absorb it. Does that mean they should? Well, that is an entirely different debate on business ethics. As Kenton (and others) have stated, playing with miniatures is a luxury and choice past time, not a necessity.

I will close out this article with one last thought regarding the recent price hikes. The major resource from which plastic is made is petroleum. From 2003 to 2005 the price of oil nearly doubled, from $28.74 to $54.81 per barrel. That is a 90% increase. Obviously there won’t be a direct correlation between price of crude and plastic, but as the price of crude goes up, there will be an impact on plastic.

During that same period, GW had one major price hike and a model like the Land Raider was increased from $50 to $55, which is a 10% increase. It could be reasonable to suggest that the 90% increase in crude oil price translated into a 10% increase in Acetate Cellulosic. It is also worth noting two additional costs involved in making this product. One is shipping; most of the shipping is done by good old-fashioned diesel-guzzling trucks. The other is power consumption in the form of electricity. Chances are that most of the electricity used to power the factory is from a coal plant, and the price of coal has also been high the past few years. This results in a higher electric bill. Additionally, the price of natural gas has been skyrocketing for two reasons. The first is that it tends to follow oil, and the second is that it is a clean alternative for power generation.

Hopefully what has been presented here gives a good background to the next debate over the looming Games Workshop price hike.

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Dang oil!

Renegade
01-10-2010, 12:33 PM
Your wages are out.

The designers are probably on something like 30K-50K GBP per annum. Skilled Trade work as still one of the highest paid work in the private sector.

The Machine operators as probably on something closer to 7-12 GBP per hour. Minimum wage is 5.80 GBP per hour, and again it depends on how skilled the employee is.

Sorry I got to that point and already your figures would be a fair way out.

The may look high against those paid in the US, but then living costs have to be taken into account, and nothing in the UK is particularly cheap.

There are comparison websites if you want to work out Nominal Ledger costs.

If you want a better list for wages. Best bet is to go to sites like jobesite.co.uk and take an average from there or to go the the various employment agency sites, some may offer you what they consider the average wage for a particular position is.

I think you should look these up and rework your figures.

It was a nice thought, and very well presented, but it lacks knowledge.

Sorry, your not the originator of this work, could you please pass my comments on.

fuzzbuket
01-10-2010, 12:34 PM
Great post mystery shadow:D
-
My reason:

Its a lot of money to make a mould and if it dosnt sell that's a HUGE loss then all the shipping to america from england, But if they dont make a model everyone gets angry :confused:

- Fuzz

BuFFo
01-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Nice post.

40K is still one of the cheapest 'dork' hobbies to get into, though.

Aldramelech
01-10-2010, 01:20 PM
Goodbye

TheBitzBarn
01-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Your wages are out.

The designers are probably on something like 30K-50K GBP per annum. Skilled Trade work as still one of the highest paid work in the private sector.

The Machine operators as probably on something closer to 7-12 GBP per hour. Minimum wage is 5.80 GBP per hour, and again it depends on how skilled the employee is.

Sorry I got to that point and already your figures would be a fair way out.

The may look high against those paid in the US, but then living costs have to be taken into account, and nothing in the UK is particularly cheap.

There are comparison websites if you want to work out Nominal Ledger costs.

If you want a better list for wages. Best bet is to go to sites like jobesite.co.uk and take an average from there or to go the the various employment agency sites, some may offer you what they consider the average wage for a particular position is.

I think you should look these up and rework your figures.

It was a nice thought, and very well presented, but it lacks knowledge.

Sorry, your not the originator of this work, could you please pass my comments on.

Sorry but I think you are off on this one as all plastics are manufactured in Memphis and her min wage is 7.25/hour and the labor rates may be a lil high but they are averages. His work is dead on and Very correct as Land Raiders are made mostly in the US and not UK.

VERY nice Piece and VERY WELL Written A+++++++

I hope this shut some people up.

Taxes are easy to shift around and I think that is Huge reason the Memphis Facility is in the US Taxes are products are Produced here and if GW NA is a subsidiary then taxes are paid here no UK.

Renegade
01-10-2010, 01:34 PM
Tax is another major cost that has been omitted.

The UK is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world. We pay tax on just about everything. GW HQ will pay a large wad of business tax and every single shop (they are treated as separate business's by our Government) will pay that also. They will also pay a "Green" tax, being a manufacturing industry, a tax on any profits they make and import and export taxes. Then we have the seventeen and a half percent Value Added Tax that us UK residents pay on everything we buy! You can also add in the highest fuel taxes in the world.

GW's tax burden is huge, which is why this countries manufacturing industries went down the toilet a long time ago.

Renegade is quite correct in that the wages are out. Someone with the skills to run machines like that are not common here anymore and would demand higher wages as a consequence.

And yet despite all this, we have news today of record profits.......

Profits being up is a good thing, the economy needs it! I wont be complaining to muchabout any price hikes while GW is not laying off workers and is still in business while the economy recovers. It may mean I got to look for better deals, or buy a lot less, but its better than the alternatives.

Maybe their last price hikes will mean any others are a lot smaller. They cant risk pricing themselves out of the market.

MC Tic Tac
01-10-2010, 02:55 PM
Don't forget Plastic is made from Oil.......

Asymmetrical Xeno
01-10-2010, 03:49 PM
This is just my own personal view and in no way do I think im "right" or anything but yes, I have felt like that and im sure alot of people do too, and of course nobody -likes- paying more for something but then the way I see it myself is its not like im being forced to buy anything either. I do spend less money on 40k these days because of the prices but I doubt ill quit or anything, I just have to work harder to pay for it thats all..which is yeah a bit frustrating but thats my choice I guess. Thankfully there are sites which offer discounts so I can get stuff a bit cheaper!

Herald of Nurgle
01-10-2010, 03:56 PM
Don't forget Plastic is made from Oil.......
However, it consumes far less oil than other, more important, industries such as Petroleum and road surfacing.
Oil prices are commonly controlled when the oil in question is meant to be used for petrol and such - politics in a game about empires clashing? Blasphemy!

Good post, tho. *evacuates to USA*

zealot
01-10-2010, 07:48 PM
Hard to feel good about the price hikes when GW is growing by millions every year. What have they done for me, the customer, for supporting them for 8 years?

They lied to me when Space Hulk came out. That's what they did. Now I own a copy that I felt forced to buy and now they're putting it out as an unlimited release.

Ebay here it comes, as soon as its done being pro-painted.

Auroth
01-10-2010, 09:12 PM
Your points are all clearly pointed out and they do, indeed justify why GW does the **** it does when it comes to their prices...

But at the same time, I can't help but tilt my head when the cost for a 5+ year model gets a price increase. The mold has already gone and done paid for itself by now, and the plastic/metal needed for it is still relatively cheap. I can understand newer models being more expensive, but why would you push up the cost of Necron Warriors or Adeptas Soritas (Who had their molds paid off by now)?

If anything, isn't it economically better to sell their goods at a lower cost (still enough to make a decent profit) in order to encourage consumers to purchase moer as oppose to threaten to leave?

Perhaps our fault here is our unwillingness to leave.

(I might have mis-read or miss something in the original post. If so, I apologize.)

zealot
01-10-2010, 09:42 PM
Perhaps our fault here is our unwillingness to leave.

I'm just gonna get a business degree and start selling the ****.

Aldramelech
01-11-2010, 01:30 AM
Goodbye

Gir
01-11-2010, 08:35 AM
They lied to me when Space Hulk came out. That's what they did. Now I own a copy that I felt forced to buy and now they're putting it out as an unlimited release.

Because everything you read on the internet is true....


But at the same time, I can't help but tilt my head when the cost for a 5+ year model gets a price increase. The mold has already gone and done paid for itself by now, and the plastic/metal needed for it is still relatively cheap.

Despite popular beilef, molds to not last forever. The more they use them, the sooner they need to be replaced. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Land Raider also got a recut recently, and with a recut comes a whole new mold

Mystery.Shadow
01-11-2010, 08:49 AM
The U.S. Games-Workshop Website says they're a limited release and is out of stock.

TheBitzBarn
01-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Hard to feel good about the price hikes when GW is growing by millions every year. What have they done for me, the customer, for supporting them for 8 years?

They lied to me when Space Hulk came out. That's what they did. Now I own a copy that I felt forced to buy and now they're putting it out as an unlimited release.

Ebay here it comes, as soon as its done being pro-painted.


who said Space Hulk was unlimited release because it is NOT before Christmas they "found some more" and this found was pull back for Retail Stores that were shipped 50 and were still sitting on 10 and 15 copies. So they pulled them back and sold them online to reduce inventory before years end

Molds do have limited Life and you are correct more use = shorter life expectancy and yes they are re-cutting a lot of plastic and reducing the dead space thus reducing packaging and shipping cost Smart move

A HUGE BLUNT
01-11-2010, 02:39 PM
We can talk about price points and profit margins until we're all reaching epic proportions of text walls, but the it all comes discreptonal spending on a luxery items for me the consumer. When GW's prices reach a point where I can no longer justy buying their product I will stop buying from them (hint: they're getting razor close to that magic number)

A HUGE BLUNT
01-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Profits being up is a good thing, the economy needs it! I wont be complaining to muchabout any price hikes while GW is not laying off workers and is still in business while the economy recovers..

They've been laying off workers just like any other company when times are bad. Plenty of stores were closed and the entire GW-Canada staff was merged with GW-US

Lord Azaghul
01-11-2010, 02:56 PM
We can talk about price points and profit margins until we're all reaching epic proportions of text walls, but the it all comes discreptonal spending on a luxery items for me the consumer. When GW's prices reach a point where I can no longer justy buying their product I will stop buying from them (hint: they're getting razor close to that magic number)

Right there with you. If chimeras jump to 41.25$ and they drop the accessory sprue I think I'm done buying.

And just a hint boys: price increases in fantasy are spiking with every new army release, and they are doing it in a sneaky, by army basis. Lord and rare choices are becoming the most expensive, specials cost double what core does...and so on. Its getting to the point that a 2 boxes of 10 in a special slot will run you 41.25$ a box - you need 20+ for a solid unit - thats 82.50$ USD for 20 PLASTIC models. No thanks. That right there is beyond my price point.

Melissia
01-11-2010, 03:31 PM
Indeed. That's one of the bigger reason I kept pushing back expanding my Sisters force, aside from them being metal models and thus a pain in the *** to paint.

Aldramelech
01-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Goodbye

Xas
01-11-2010, 05:46 PM
actually that "price hike" is all the economy's fault.

in europe the landraider has costed 50€ for at least 4 years.
it going up to 55$ just represents the drop the US$ has taken and GW neither wanted to lower prices in europe nor have us buy from oversears. even though 55$ are nowhere near 50€ the big shipping and tax evens the trade out at allmost no savings if you wanted to do it.

same with the silent hike of the new models in GB itself. the pound suffered far more (not necesary because of the change in rates but because it is not protected by a hughe shipping cost and taxes).

with all the older GW products I can save an astounding 50% including shipping (and haveing no tax thanks to GB beeing part of EU). with the new "hiked" products the saveing went down to ~25-35% compared to a roughly 15% i can get from €-european webstores.


for a funny bit: gaunts even got cheaper in €-land: you now get 12 for ~20€ where you once got 16 for 30€ :)

BuFFo
01-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Its been eBay for me since 2002...

Dark_Templar
01-11-2010, 06:16 PM
Wayland Games for me all the way. I live in Australia and when I include postage it is still 50-70% cheaper to buy through them.

Paints, Codices, Brushes, I get from GW Online, but nothing else.

Also, I am pretty sure the Space Hulk that they found were unsolde boxes from Retail Stores.

eldargal
01-11-2010, 08:19 PM
Excellent article, even if the figures may not be quite right. It is about time someone pointed out that producing and maintaining an entire hobby is not cheap.


Thebitzbarn, it is my understanding that the Memphis production centre produces models for the American market, the majority of models are still produced in the mother plant at Nottingham. Both plants have full sets of molds for the entire model range so that in the event of the catastrophic loss of one plant, it an be rebuilt and restocked with molds from the other.



Sorry but I think you are off on this one as all plastics are manufactured in Memphis and her min wage is 7.25/hour and the labor rates may be a lil high but they are averages. His work is dead on and Very correct as Land Raiders are made mostly in the US and not UK.

VERY nice Piece and VERY WELL Written A+++++++

I hope this shut some people up.

Taxes are easy to shift around and I think that is Huge reason the Memphis Facility is in the US Taxes are products are Produced here and if GW NA is a subsidiary then taxes are paid here no UK.

Morgrim
01-11-2010, 09:45 PM
Thebitzbarn, it is my understanding that the Memphis production centre produces models for the American market, the majority of models are still produced in the mother plant at Nottingham. Both plants have full sets of molds for the entire model range so that in the event of the catastrophic loss of one plant, it an be rebuilt and restocked with molds from the other.

I never thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea to have the backups done that way.

eldargal
01-11-2010, 11:32 PM
I read it in one of the GW financial reports of the past few years, back when they established the Memphis facility.:)


I never thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea to have the backups done that way.

Aldramelech
01-12-2010, 01:48 AM
Goodbye

Gir
01-12-2010, 01:48 AM
Wayland Games for me all the way. I live in Australia and when I include postage it is still 50-70% cheaper to buy through them.

I prefer Maelstrom games, they may be a slight bit more expensive, but all shipping is free.

Renegade
01-12-2010, 09:12 AM
actually that "price hike" is all the economy's fault.

in europe the landraider has costed 50€ for at least 4 years.
it going up to 55$ just represents the drop the US$ has taken and GW neither wanted to lower prices in europe nor have us buy from oversears. even though 55$ are nowhere near 50€ the big shipping and tax evens the trade out at allmost no savings if you wanted to do it.

same with the silent hike of the new models in GB itself. the pound suffered far more (not necesary because of the change in rates but because it is not protected by a hughe shipping cost and taxes).

with all the older GW products I can save an astounding 50% including shipping (and haveing no tax thanks to GB beeing part of EU). with the new "hiked" products the saveing went down to ~25-35% compared to a roughly 15% i can get from €-european webstores.


for a funny bit: gaunts even got cheaper in €-land: you now get 12 for ~20€ where you once got 16 for 30€ :)

This kind of links to what I said before. With the UK still in recession, having a UK company record good profits is an overall boost to the UK economy,thats the part I wont be complaining about. Also note that the job loses from GW dont seem to have been made in the UK, where they are planning, or at least were planning, to open more stores.

The fact that so many other companies have gone down the tubes and GW is still pulling in profits does give them some credibility to their financial thinking. I dont think they can continue with to many hikes, but over all it probably evens out.

Broxus
01-12-2010, 09:46 AM
One thing to not forget, is inflation of abou 2-3% a year, this must be taken into account. Honestly though Warhammer is cheap, its no more expensive than being a smoker, drinker, or golfer. All of those things are luxory items. I think people cry way to much about the prices when they are throwing it away on some of the things I mention every day.

Melissia
01-12-2010, 04:20 PM
Or college students with little money.

Dark_Templar
01-12-2010, 04:20 PM
One thing to not forget, is inflation of abou 2-3% a year, this must be taken into account. Honestly though Warhammer is cheap, its no more expensive than being a smoker, drinker, or golfer. All of those things are luxory items. I think people cry way to much about the prices when they are throwing it away on some of the things I mention every day.

But for 12 year old kids who are not smoking, drinking or playing golf, and need to use their parents' money for the hobby, it makes it a bit hard. I am guessing it is the young teens who cry most about the price hikes.

Subject Keyword
01-12-2010, 04:20 PM
Or college students with little money.

Thank you for saying that. It makes me feel less alone in the world.

I'm spending over $400 on books this semester. And that's USED.
I've grown a mustache because I can't afford to buy a replacement razor...

Lord Azaghul
01-12-2010, 04:54 PM
But for 12 year old kids who are not smoking, drinking or playing golf, and need to use their parents' money for the hobby, it makes it a bit hard. I am guessing it is the young teens who cry most about the price hikes.

Or working adults who also have a mortgage, student loans, and all the other cost of living expensive that come with being a productive member of society.
And I don't waste my money and drinking or smoking!

Its still cheaper to start an army then spend the weekend at a bar, but that doesn't exactly make this a 'poor mans' luxury either.

Dark_Templar
01-12-2010, 05:46 PM
Or working adults who also have a mortgage, student loans, and all the other cost of living expensive that come with being a productive member of society.
And I don't waste my money and drinking or smoking!

Its still cheaper to start an army then spend the weekend at a bar, but that doesn't exactly make this a 'poor mans' luxury either.

Well I have a mortgage, children, a relatively low paying job, do not drink or smoke, and I therefore do not have a lot of money to spend on the hobby. I do however accept that it is not a cheap hobby and see no point in complaining about price hikes in a luxury hobby, one that I have chosen to participate in.

If you can't afford it, find something else, or actively look at alternatives to paying full retail. Just because GW bumps the price of a LR by $5, does not mean you can't still get it half price elsewhere.

Again, I feel that any adult, regardless of financial responsibilities, should have the maturity to know when they might need to put the hobby on hold.

I do not hold the same expectations for young teens who do not value money and generally leech off others to feed their habits.

DT.

p.s. I have just put on my flame-proof vest in anticipation of replies.

Lord Azaghul
01-13-2010, 07:58 AM
Well I have a mortgage, children, a relatively low paying job, do not drink or smoke, and I therefore do not have a lot of money to spend on the hobby. I do however accept that it is not a cheap hobby and see no point in complaining about price hikes in a luxury hobby, one that I have chosen to participate in.

If you can't afford it, find something else, or actively look at alternatives to paying full retail. Just because GW bumps the price of a LR by $5, does not mean you can't still get it half price elsewhere.

Again, I feel that any adult, regardless of financial responsibilities, should have the maturity to know when they might need to put the hobby on hold.

I do not hold the same expectations for young teens who do not value money and generally leech off others to feed their habits.

DT.

p.s. I have just put on my flame-proof vest in anticipation of replies.

I'll start my saying that every month I get my satilliate TV, or cell phone bill I briefly consider cancelling it(wife won't let me- TV seems to be her hobby), and I moan everytime gas prices increase - ever! I've never been the type to spend my money on a want over a need. I'm fact I'm doing my best to not buy gw products for a while, not because I'm hurting myself financially but because I feel that I've enough unpainted/unassembled stuff in my closet, and even though I don't have 'everything' in my army(s), I don't 'need' anything else.

I actually agree with you. Its not a 'cheap' hobby, but I really can't think of many hobbies that are and truthfully it is much cheaper then most. What frustrates me is the % that models seem to be increasing by. I think that 3x5-15% in a year and a half on a select set of models is boarder line criminal - why because I'm cheap (frugal is probably a better word). So I have a hard time seeing how 'no product improvement' should result in higher prices (I'm thinking metal blisters here for the most part). And there are models that I feel are worth the higher prices (valkyrie is one of them), but things like the new demolisher, where they drop a sprue, and charge you 5$ more for a new model really bothers me because its really a 15$ price increase if you want (the direct order) sprue), which makes it a massive price increase of 25%! I just don't see the justification, so I haven't bought one!

In general I do make my purchases from non-gw online retalors for the average of 20-25% off (because to me that is what they are'worth'), and if that wasn't available to me, I'd probably only by one or two things a year, and it would be around my birthday or christmas, instead of a monthly or moderate impulse basis, and if they keep raising these prices as these rates, I may just stop buying for a great long time, until I need a new codex or a new edition rolls out.

Aldramelech
01-13-2010, 09:07 AM
Goodbye

Cryl
01-13-2010, 09:24 AM
The problem with concepts like "expensive" or "cheap" is that they're entirely subjective. If I earn £100,000 a week then WH40K isn't expensive but if I earn £100 a week then it's a pretty expensive thing to go buy an army box for £50. I guess what this really comes down to is at what point does a price increase mean that the item is too expensive for the majority of people to consider that they're prepared to buy it.

Ten Marines for £20 is roughly the cost now iirc. Is that worth it to me? Can I afford it without impacting my life? Am I prepared to spend that portion of my 'spare' non-bills money on that particular luxury? The answers to these will be different for different people.

As Lord Azaghul says this isn't actually all that expensive a hobby £ per hour you get. A video game costing £40 may well last 10 hours, a marine box set for £20 takes time to build and paint then everytime you play a game you're improving your cost by time ratio

fuzzbuket
01-13-2010, 10:49 AM
But for 12 year old kids who are not smoking, drinking or playing golf, and need to use their parents' money for the hobby, it makes it a bit hard. I am guessing it is the young teens who cry most about the price hikes.


£10 a month dosnt go far:(

so i started to spend time painting:)

now i spend 2+ days on a single tactical.

and a low budget is good for painting! I've got a mate who spends £++ every time at GW but he never paints because its "too much to paint":eek:

-Fuzz

Subject Keyword
01-13-2010, 11:57 AM
A career in the Adult Film Industry awaits!

Hmmm... Good idea...
That's how I can afford the price increase...

Dark_Templar
01-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Aza, I definitely see where you are coming from. I agree that if they crank up the price by a substantial amount, then you would expect to at least get an extra sheet of transfers...

Seriously though, I can understand new product lines being a bit pricey, as there are costs to cover on the molds etc, but cranking up the price on 10 year old models is a bit rough.

All in all, this is a hobby I have chosen to participate in, and when I cannot afford more models, I spend more time on painting (Lord knows I need the practice).

When all else fails, you can turn to a life of crime to support your habit.

Morgrim
01-13-2010, 07:21 PM
£10 a month dosnt go far:(

so i started to spend time painting:)

now i spend 2+ days on a single tactical.

and a low budget is good for painting! I've got a mate who spends £++ every time at GW but he never paints because its "too much to paint":eek:

-Fuzz

Get him to pay you to paint his models. :D

Mystery.Shadow
01-15-2010, 12:07 AM
Compared to my other hobbies. I find Warhammer 40,000 a very INexpensive Hobby.

Lyracian
01-15-2010, 01:48 AM
It is interesting to see that the cardboard box my Land Raider came in is worth more than the plastic used on the sprues.

I do not know how it works in the USA but as far as I was aware FLGS purchase directly from GW here in the UK so I do not think the 50-10-10 discount is appropriate. I was told FLGS get a flat 40% discount. I also doubt GW would be spending 7% on a sales rep. The main complaint I have against GW Prices is that Historical War-gaming figures are so much cheaper. So how are those companies managing to stay in business?

Overall I think Warhammer is quite a cheap hobby. Look at the cost of buying a Snowboard or a bow for Archery. Each of those would cost you about the same as a 40k Army.

Aldramelech
01-15-2010, 02:39 AM
Goodbye