People who are confused about Space marines useing Daemonolgy

[Xaric]

Who here played world of warcraft do you remember what Arthus did? His quotes? He would sacrifice everything to protect his homeland now think of this but replace Arthus with a librarian in his dire moment seeing all his battle brothers getting killed by the enemy Dire times call for Dire actions even if his soul is the price to pay to protect his battle brothers.

Also the end of the game Space Marine if you compleated it some space marines follow the codex as a set of guidlines to shape them but its what they do with the guidlines is what truely defines a space marine.

There you go a fluffy means to using daemonology as a Space marine :D

[deinol]

Yes... claim the power Tzeentch offers. Think of the good you'll be able to do!

It's that kind of thinking that leads to chaos space marines. And I guess why Gray Knights seem to fight Space Marines so often.

[interrogator_chaplain]

Grey Knights being able to use Daemonology, from a fluff perspective, is stupid awful. Going against literally everything ever written about them, only if you take everything written about them out of consideration can you forge that narrative. (But then again there are rumblings about Blood Angels getting units who've succumbed to The Rage and then came back, so yeah, if that's true, we may go from the era of playing fast and loose with the rules, to playing fast and loose with the fluff.)

That being said, Space Marines fall from grace all the time. Time honoured plot point that goes back to the 31st Millenium. Anything from the whispers of the Warp corrupting the soul, to a malignant daemon possessing the Librarian, the misguided ideals of using the weapons of the enemy against them or just a good old accident due to the random and Chaotic nature of the warp, are potential explanations for a Librarian to summon forth the denizens of hell.

Besides, these are the things that happen during the battle. Who knows what happens to the Librarian after the battle ends?

[Mr Mystery]

Remember folks. It's a sandbox galaxy we've been given to play in.

Wouldn't is not the same as couldn't. And if it saves a planet....

[ElectricPaladin]

I do think that the view of "daemonology inevitably leads to corruption" is patently false. We have several examples - including the venerable Inquisitor Eisenhorn - of characters who use Chaos to fight Chaos. It's certainly not a wise tactic, but it's clearly more complicated than "he's a witch - burn him!"

[Lord Asterion]

We don't even know for sure which Factions will have access to which powers and how they will cast them

[interrogator_chaplain]

In the case of Grey Knights, Daemonology should without question equal corruption, it goes against everything ever written about them officially.

But as stated above, who knows what happens to the Librarian after the game? Is he charismatic enough that he can convince his brothers what he did was right? The fact that the Librarian called upon a group of Flesh Hounds to route a warband of Emperor's Children doesn't immediately cause his brothers to turn on him, perhaps he wins them over with an argument of fighting fire with fire?

Perhaps immediately after the guns fall silent the Reclusiarch has the Librarian executed.

Perhaps he's given a penitence crusade.

Perhaps he turns the daemons on his brothers when they don't understand, and carries on a misunderstood personal crusade against Chaos.

The outcomes and reasons are as compelling as they are varied. There's never black and white in the 41st Millenium, only grimdark shades of grey.

[completeHook]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Ultramarines you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Ultramarines any more.

(hope no-one noticed the schoolboy error about the BT's there...)

[ElectricPaladin]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Black Templars you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Black Templars any more.

But the Space Marines aren't part of the Imperium. They aren't theocrats - heck, most of them are transhumanist atheists. You are painting a pretty deep setting with an incredibly broad brush.

I agree that the Black Templars probably shouldn't be summoning Daemons; luckily they won't be. Black Templars can't take Librarians.

As far as other armies go... look, I think GW has been pretty clear that they view this as closer to a competitive roleplaying game than a true, hard-minded, tactical wargame. All that "Forge the Narrative" stuff, the frantic pace, the possibility of army lists that are truly broken and un-fun. Your army isn't meant to be optimized and cut-throat; it's meant to be a character.

If you don't think that your army would summon Daemons, then don't summon Daemons. Do something else.

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(hope no-one noticed the schoolboy error about the BT's there...)

Too late! :D

Honestly, I don't think that Ultramarines are a much better example. The Ultramarines are a super atheist, super transhuman First Founding chapter. I can totally see Tigirius summoning a Daemon because he's not superstitious about what this thing is. It's a phantom of the immaterium, made of coagulated sentient passion, and he can dominate it into doing his bidding because his mind is stronger than its. I'm not saying he would actually do it - he seems much more cautious than that, from what little I know of him - but he's not a loyal member of the Imperial Cult. It's more complicated than that.

[Lord Asterion]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Black Templars you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Black Templars any more.

It depends how you're narrative is, if every game with the Black Templar army is its own thing, the only time this particular army fought, a moment in time when the black templars (although they don't have access to psykers, but we'll run with it.) are desperate enough to call on the most forbidden of powers and it has only happened once in the history of the Chapter, then its not so bad, its one instance of the end justifing the means, maybe that whole company was subsequently destroyed by an Inquisitor, maybe it kicked off a massive war as the company splits from the Templars and goes renegade or tries to redeem itself in the eyes of the emperor? Its a great start to a campaign or your own narrative.

If its in a campaign and your army is constantly using the Maleific powers (presuming it could) then again, its just another chance to establish a narrative, you could reflect their nature in the way your list evolves over the campaign, gradually becoming more corrupted as they embrace the power of daemonic power.

Its a game designed to be a story telling device and this just gives you more chances to tell your story, if you don't think Space Marines should use these powers, don't use them, know that your Marines are steadfast in their hatred of the daemon and the heretic.

[Nabterayl]

Honestly, I don't think that Ultramarines are a much better example. The Ultramarines are a super atheist, super transhuman First Founding chapter. I can totally see Tigirius summoning a Daemon because he's not superstitious about what this thing is. It's a phantom of the immaterium, made of coagulated sentient passion, and he can dominate it into doing his bidding because his mind is stronger than its. I'm not saying he would actually do it - he seems much more cautious than that, from what little I know of him - but he's not a loyal member of the Imperial Cult. It's more complicated than that.
Agreed. A daemon, on its own terms, is no more evil than a necron or an ork or an eldar or a tyranid or a tau. It's just an extradimensional alien.

[Lord Asterion]

Except the daemon can leave a taint on your very soul that lingers and grows, the warp isn't really evil or good, but it is rage and hate and passion and malice and love and everything in between, the warp is not just an extra dimension, it feeds off of ours and daemons are solidified extremes of emotion, a blood letter isn't just an alien, its rage and blood lust and hate made manifest and channeling those powers draws your soul to the attention of the Gods, the most extreme of these manifested emotions.

All warp powers run this risk though, using any psychic power will corrupt you over time unless you're very careful, but directly drawing out a daemon is going to do that quicker.

[completeHook]

As far as other armies go... look, I think GW has been pretty clear that they view this as closer to a competitive roleplaying game than a true, hard-minded, tactical wargame. All that "Forge the Narrative" stuff, the frantic pace, the possibility of army lists that are truly broken and un-fun. Your army isn't meant to be optimized and cut-throat; it's meant to be a character.


I'm writing this with my fluff bunny furry ears on, it just goes against the spirit of the universe they have created.

Why would Chaos Champions devote their lives to trying to get the attention of Chaos Gods when some random Jonny can just stick out their thumb and flag down a passing Great Unclean One. I can't comment on how it will work in the game because there isn't enough information about it yet, but I do feel sorry for Chaos Daemon players who potentially are going to have all their best toys shared out between everyone else.

Oh and I evidently wasn't quick enough correcting that Black Templar mistake, you know post in haste, repent at leisure.

[Mr Mystery]

So don't use it yourself?

[Lord Asterion]

I'm writing this with my fluff bunny furry ears on, it just goes against the spirit of the universe they have created.

Why would Chaos Champions devote their lives to trying to get the attention of Chaos Gods when some random Jonny can just stick out their thumb and flag down a passing Great Unclean One. I can't comment on how it will work in the game because there isn't enough information about it yet, but I do feel sorry for Chaos Daemon players who potentially are going to have all their best toys shared out between everyone else.

Oh and I evidently wasn't quick enough correcting that Black Templar mistake, you know post in haste, repent at leisure.

Getting the attention through sacrifice and devotion to the gods, so that you may petition them for power and immortality is one thing, focusing your will (and sacrificing your life and almost certainly your soul) to summon a powerful daemon into your control for a few moments is entirely another.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm writing this with my fluff bunny furry ears on, it just goes against the spirit of the universe they have created.

Why would Chaos Champions devote their lives to trying to get the attention of Chaos Gods when some random Jonny can just stick out their thumb and flag down a passing Great Unclean One. I can't comment on how it will work in the game because there isn't enough information about it yet, but I do feel sorry for Chaos Daemon players who potentially are going to have all their best toys shared out between everyone else.

Oh and I evidently wasn't quick enough correcting that Black Templar mistake, you know post in haste, repent at leisure.

Ok, fair enough.

However, I've got to disagree with you there. There are plenty of examples in the fluff of shades of grey between good and evil, of characters using the arcane laws of Chaos to push it into their service. Like I wrote earlier, check out Eisenhorn. It's just not that black and white.

[Nabterayl]

Except the daemon can leave a taint on your very soul that lingers and grows, the warp isn't really evil or good, but it is rage and hate and passion and malice and love and everything in between, the warp is not just an extra dimension, it feeds off of ours and daemons are solidified extremes of emotion, a blood letter isn't just an alien, its rage and blood lust and hate made manifest and channeling those powers draws your soul to the attention of the Gods, the most extreme of these manifested emotions.

All warp powers run this risk though, using any psychic power will corrupt you over time unless you're very careful, but directly drawing out a daemon is going to do that quicker.
Sure, but none of that is evil.

[Lord Asterion]

Sure, but none of that is evil.

It depends on your definition of evil really.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is pretty definitive of 40k. After all, there are no good guys.

Eldar? Arrogant, self interested, and happy to commit genocide to save even one Eldar life.

Imperial Guard? Troopers are cheaper than their equipment. Let's expend them in their droves, even if it doesn't win us the battle.

Space Marines? Yeah they're more than a little fascistic.

Tau? Insidious.

[deinol]

But the Space Marines aren't part of the Imperium. They aren't theocrats - heck, most of them are transhumanist atheists. You are painting a pretty deep setting with an incredibly broad brush.

Wait, what heretic marines are you playing that are atheists? If you aren't warrior monks venerating the god-emperor, then you certainly aren't following the codex astartes.

[Mr Mystery]

The Astartes do venerate the Emperor, but only rarely as something divine.

It's to do with their closer link (Grandsons, after a fashion)

[interrogator_chaplain]

Most Space Marines don't see the Emperor as a god. He's a superhuman figure head of the Imperium worthy of their devotion and allegiance. Some chapters do believe in his divinity, like the Red Hunters.

[ElectricPaladin]

Wait, what heretic marines are you playing that are atheists? If you aren't warrior monks venerating the god-emperor, then you certainly aren't following the codex astartes.

Um... how about pretty much all the First Founding chapters who follow the Emperor as the greatest of all men, rather than a god? And most of their successors that have close relationships with their parent chapter have been nudged in the same direction.

[daboarder]

me, Im loving how this rumour has highlighted the hypocrisy of many posters.

People that swore blind that inquisitors working with CSMs and Fallen knights were ridiculous and unfluffy are now falling over themselves left right and center attempting to justify loyalist access to malefic daemonology.

Just flippin hilarious

my opinion on the whole thing? While the option cant hurt its yet another nail in the coffin of why play CSM when for the most part the loyalists get to represent things better.

If this is all true of course.

[ElectricPaladin]

me, Im loving how this rumour has highlighted the hypocrisy of many posters.

People that swore blind that inquisitors working with CSMs and Fallen knights were ridiculous and unfluffy are now falling over themselves left right and center attempting to justify loyalist access to malefic daemonology.

Just flippin hilarious

my opinion on the whole thing? While the option cant hurt its yet another nail in the coffin of why play CSM when for the most part the loyalists get to represent things better.

If this is all true of course.

Well, some of us just thought the Chaos players were being a bit whiny, not that you didn't deserve it. There's a fine line between "you're wrong and you shouldn't get that" and "yes, you should probably get that, but for the Throne's sake let it go!"

[daboarder]

haha fair point, but thats not what the above comment was direccted at, just so we're clear

[jd2x.pacman]

Wait, what heretic marines are you playing that are atheists? If you aren't warrior monks venerating the god-emperor, then you certainly aren't following the codex astartes.

I dont know that the space wolves are atheists, but they venerate the Emperor because he bested Russ, not as a god, and they almost certainly are not following the codex astartes.

[deinol]

Um... how about pretty much all the First Founding chapters who follow the Emperor as the greatest of all men, rather than a god? And most of their successors that have close relationships with their parent chapter have been nudged in the same direction.

That may have been true back before the Heresy, but its not supposed to be true in 40k. The fact that the original legions were atheists was one of the surprising reveals of the Horus Heresy novels.

[completeHook]

Like I wrote earlier, check out Eisenhorn. It's just not that black and white.

But the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies go into a lot of detail about the lengths the Cognitae go to unearth hidden knowledge.

This is the nut of the matter for me, allowing loyalist forces to not only summon but control daemons disregards all that, it strips away the mystery and subtlety. It makes the universe feel smaller if the exceptional becomes mundane. Even someone as important and trusted as a marine Librarian shouldn't have the knowledge to perform the rite to summon a daemon as a matter of course. The Grey Knights will liquidate any Guard that fight for them once they have served their purpose. Marines that fight along side them have the memories scoured because this knowledge is considered so dangerous. I'm sure the is something in the GK codex about them performing an Exterminatus to kill off a stormtrooper detachment that fled from them and gone to ground.

My analogy with the Adeptus Mechanicus deciding to start making Crisis suits wasn't a flippant one. In the Inquisition codex there are rules for taking xeno's tech as there are rules for taking daemonhosts, because they are exceptional. It is the unusual nature of these characters that is reflected in the USR's and gear available to them and their henchmen.

Having the ability to summon daemons for Chaos Space Marines makes sense to a degree, Chaos Daemons having it makes perfect sense canon wise, but my Guard Primaris Psyker even knowing that these entities exist let alone how to drag one into realspace and bind it to his will, no.

As others have said the more ways people have to enjoy the hobby the better but I can't help seeing this a dilution of GW's greatest asset.

+++Just to clarify+++

Even for a CSM sorcerer it doesn't seem like something that should be done on the hoof, rather a rite performed in a certain place at certain time.

From what I understand of the training Imperial Battle psykers go though is about insulating them the inhabitants of the warp, not educating them about them.

[Captain Bubonicus]

I'm writing this with my fluff bunny furry ears on, it just goes against the spirit of the universe they have created.

Agreed.

[Lord Asterion]

We don't know who will be able to use Malefic powers and at what cost, the risks are likely high as its a 3 Warp Charge power

[ElectricPaladin]

haha fair point, but thats not what the above comment was direccted at, just so we're clear

No sweat - clear.

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That may have been true back before the Heresy, but its not supposed to be true in 40k. The fact that the original legions were atheists was one of the surprising reveals of the Horus Heresy novels.

I dunno, man. Check out your codex fluff. I know that the Blood Angels and most of their successors don't revere the Emperor as a god. The same is definitely true of the Space Wolves.

[Xaric]

In the case of Grey Knights, Daemonology should without question equal corruption, it goes against everything ever written about them officially.

But as stated above, who knows what happens to the Librarian after the game? Is he charismatic enough that he can convince his brothers what he did was right? The fact that the Librarian called upon a group of Flesh Hounds to route a warband of Emperor's Children doesn't immediately cause his brothers to turn on him, perhaps he wins them over with an argument of fighting fire with fire?

Perhaps immediately after the guns fall silent the Reclusiarch has the Librarian executed.

Perhaps he's given a penitence crusade.

Perhaps he turns the daemons on his brothers when they don't understand, and carries on a misunderstood personal crusade against Chaos.

The outcomes and reasons are as compelling as they are varied. There's never black and white in the 41st Millenium, only grimdark shades of grey.

Grimoire of true names is a book of Daemonolgy that has the list of daemon names grey knights study Daemonolgy to defeat them so by rights they would use Daemonolgy tree but the good side that by my speculation will be about banishing daemons and warding ally's against them...

[interrogator_chaplain]

That's a good point, we haven't seen the Sanctic Daemonology tree, I suspect you might be on to something there.

[deinol]

I dunno, man. Check out your codex fluff. I know that the Blood Angels and most of their successors don't revere the Emperor as a god. The same is definitely true of the Space Wolves.

It looks like they changed the fluff at some point over the years and I never noticed. I don't have my 2nd ed Codex Space Marines readily available but:



It must not be forgotten that Space Marines are devout warriors. Their faith in the divinity of the Emperor is as vital to them as their skill at arms, and their spiritual life is deep and complex.

[daboarder]

depends on the chapter.

you have the less religious ones such as space wolves, and the more religious ones such as black templars.

Most chapters however fall somewhere in between. Venerating the emperor, but at the same time they arent typically followers of the ecclesiarchy.

[BrianDavion]

as I understand it space marine spirtuality is more an ancestor/hero worship then a god worship

[Bishopus]

Really? It goes against the dark, grim world they created where even the purest and most faithful are tempted and occasionally fall to Chaos?

Chaos isn't just another team you play for, it's the risk everyone in that world faces when they aspire to power.

[Xaric]

Even the purest can fall to chaos as Nurgle puts his method in to play.
"everything no matter how sturdy will always decay and fall apart"

[Morgrim]

In the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader books there aren't any ways to summon daemons on purpose, but there is an entire psykic power tree available to astropaths dedicated to warding against them. It contains things like banishing daemons by weakening their grip on the mortal plane, sealing an area so that a daemon cannot enter it, bolstering allies against the fear inflicted by warp creatures etc. I suspect that the Sanctus branch will be very similar.

That seems like a perfect fit for Grey Knights and loyalist librarians. I suspect the 'everyone can take Daemonology' means that psykers can take one of two flavours, potentially both. So it's unlikely that Grey Knights can take the Malfic branch but equally unlikely that CSM can take the Sanctus one.

[Wolfshade]

If it comes down to a question of ethics then a lot depends on your own ethic frame work as it work.

If they are a consequentialist then "the end justifies the means" so it is perfectly valid to use the weapon of the enemy to your own will if it ultimately brings about the victory. We know that some SM legions already use this through the HH series, the first one that springs to mind is Lionel using the Librarianus to force his will on the death guard in The Lion.

If they are deontologists then certainly it is wrong as warp craft is, these would be the most stringent followers of the imperial creed or codex astrates.

If they are utiltarianists or pgramatistis then the use of demonology is fine in the right circumstances

It is an ethical minefield...

[Mr Mystery]

me, Im loving how this rumour has highlighted the hypocrisy of many posters.

People that swore blind that inquisitors working with CSMs and Fallen knights were ridiculous and unfluffy are now falling over themselves left right and center attempting to justify loyalist access to malefic daemonology.

Just flippin hilarious

my opinion on the whole thing? While the option cant hurt its yet another nail in the coffin of why play CSM when for the most part the loyalists get to represent things better.

If this is all true of course.

I wasn't among them. I was one of those arguing it's very easy for an Inquisitor working undercover to 'go native'.

[Anggul]

Simple: If they're doing it, they're falling to chaos. Not exactly a rare occurrence for space marines or indeed many other factions.

It doesn't make sense for Grey Knights, but remember, there are two different kinds of daemonology: sanctic and malefic. Presumably sanctic daemonology will be anti-daemon powers like dark excommunication and sanctuary.

Inquisitors have been known to fall to chaos, but the Grey Knights wouldn't stand for it. It should be like the old Daemonhost rules where if your Inquisitor had one you couldn't have Grey Knights in the army.

[Xaric]

Do tell what a daemon host is then as Inquisitors love using them :P

[ElectricPaladin]

That seems like a perfect fit for Grey Knights and loyalist librarians. I suspect the 'everyone can take Daemonology' means that psykers can take one of two flavours, potentially both. So it's unlikely that Grey Knights can take the Malfic branch but equally unlikely that CSM can take the Sanctus one.

We'll see... remember, though, that the White Dwarf spoiled Ezekiel from the Dark Angels using Malefic Daemonology.

Personally, if I were a Chaos Space Marine sorcerer, Santic Daemonology is the first thing I'd learn. "Don't call up what you can't put down," as they say, and it would be nice to have some leverage over the Daemons running around.

[Morgrim]

Personally, if I were a Chaos Space Marine sorcerer, Santic Daemonology is the first thing I'd learn. "Don't call up what you can't put down," as they say, and it would be nice to have some leverage over the Daemons running around.
Good point, I could see some Legions such as Iron Warriors or Night Lords loving it. Anyone undivided really. If you've actually taken a chaos god as your patron then it might be a bit trickier if you run the risk of offending them by learning such arts and can't convince them it was only for use against their rival deities, honest.

[Xaric]

Remember everyone you must be a mastery lv 3 or higher to use daemonology as it requires a base 3 warp charges for the primarus power I believe that rule will stay because this looks like a very hard ability to use for any novice psyker especially a skilled one.

[Archon Charybdis]

Remember everyone you must be a mastery lv 3 or higher to use daemonology as it requires a base 3 warp charges

While the details of the new psychic phase are sketchy still, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. With your additional d6 warp charges, even a level 2 can always cast it.

[Xaric]

I love the new info that came up so taking all powers from a single type awards you the trade power for free awesome makes sense really to be honesty also you can roll 1 dice for the 1 warp charge powers and never perils :D but 3 warp charge powers are going to be hard without perils this feels fluffy to me because higher warp charge powers require more contact with the warp like radiation your more exposed to radiation poisoning this means more higher risk.

Each power dice needs a +5 to pass the warp charge rolling double 6 is perils but you still cast due to 2 dice success each dice can be denied if your enemy rolls 6+ no psyker 5+ if he has a psyker +1 more if they have a hood and +1 more if there higher mastery.