What's the Best Daemon for YOUR Army?

[ElectricPaladin]

It's been confirmed. Although the details about how psychic powers are going to work in the new edition are still unknown, it is now clear that anyone can summon Daemons. Specifically...

the Primaris power allows you to summon one of the following:
• 10 Bloodletters
• 10 Pink Horrors
• 10 Plaguebearers
• 10 Daemonettes
• 5 Flesh Hounds
• 3 Flamers
• 3 Nurgling Swarms
• 3 Seekers

Additionally, with a different power, you can summon one of the following:
• 3 Bloodcrushers
• 3 Screamers
• 3 Plague Drones
• 3 Fiends

Note that the conjured unit will appear within 12'' of the psyker. Conjuration powers are new, and it is not yet known exactly how the unit will enter the table (merely placed? as per Deep Strike?) or what limitations will be placed on their actions on that turn (will they be able to act normally? will arriving count as their movement, but they can still shoot and assault? will they be treated as entering from Reserves and be unable to assault?). When that information is released, it may alter our findings, but I see no reason we can't begin discussing now.

Here's the question as I see it: in most cases, those of us who aren't primarily Daemons players aren't going to want to buy one of each. We are probably going to want to get one - maybe two - top choices. The right Daemons for our army.

The question is, which Daemon is that?

The following armies (all armies with psykers who are not Tyranids) can summon Daemons:

Astra Miliatrum

Blood Angels

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

Eldar

Grey Knights

Orks

Space Marines

Space Wolves

Let's have a lively discussion. When some kind of consensus is reached, I will modify the OP with a summary of our findings and a brief explanation of the logic that led to that recommendation.

[Lord Krungharr]

Where did you read that those are the Daemons which could be summoned? I haven't seen that yet. I just read about the White Dwarf battle where a Dark Angel Librarian became a Bloodthirster.

But if these lesser D possibilities are accurate, then it's very situational. And who knows if one must choose the unit before the game, or just right before or after the power is successfully used? Daemonettes and Bloodletters are my favorites, Horrors always suck when I use them, and Plaguebearers generally don't do anything (can't even run) and they seem to die pretty easily as well despite Shrouding.

Given that each discipline has 6+1 powers now, I don't think they will alter that, so Daemonology will also have 6+1. Then we must ask, what other powers might there be?

[ElectricPaladin]

Where did you read that those are the Daemons which could be summoned? I haven't seen that yet. I just read about the White Dwarf battle where a Dark Angel Librarian became a Bloodthirster.

But if these lesser D possibilities are accurate, then it's very situational. And who knows if one must choose the unit before the game, or just right before or after the power is successfully used? Daemonettes and Bloodletters are my favorites, Horrors always suck when I use them, and Plaguebearers generally don't do anything (can't even run) and they seem to die pretty easily as well despite Shrouding.

Given that each discipline has 6+1 powers now, I don't think they will alter that, so Daemonology will also have 6+1. Then we must ask, what other powers might there be?

The powers are spoiled in the 7th Edition thread. Let me see if I can't find it and repost it here...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/10276984_1423385074593777_3173522130179547805_n.jp g

Basically, the other powers are
• The primaris power described above.
• Improve nearby Daemons' invulnerable saves.
• Torrent template.
• Beam attack.
• Turn a nearby model into a herald with 30 points of wargear.
• The second conjuration power described above.
• Turn your psyker into a Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One, or Keeper of Secrets.

That said, remember that the number of powers a given psyker knows is both random and limited. The chance that you are going to get both a summoning power and the one support power are pretty low. My personal feeling is that if you get two or three powers, you're going to want to trade one in for the primaris power, and then try to get either one of the other summoning powers or one of the attack powers. Unless you're a Daemons of Chaos player, the support power isn't going to be that useful. Otherwise, I don't think I'd want to waste a power on the ability to boost the survivability of a unit that I might never have the chance to put on the board (if I don't get lucky or my opponent outplays me in the psychic phase and cancels my powers).

[The Sovereign]

The following armies (all armies with psykers who are not Tyranids) can summon Daemons:

Astra Miliatrum

Blood Angels

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

Eldar

Grey Knights

Orks

Space Marines

Space Wolves



Where did you see this? Haven't seen any info leaked yet about who gets access to Malefic Daemonology...

But as to the answer to your question, I choose screamers. Always screamers...

[ElectricPaladin]

Where did you see this? Haven't seen any info leaked yet about who gets access to Malefic Daemonology...

White Dwarf strongly implies it. We have Ezekiel using Malefic Daemonology. We know that everyone but 'Nids gets some kind of Daemonology. I think it's a safe guess that if EZEKIEL gets it, any loyalist who wants it gets Malefic Daemonology, probably as well as Santic.

[The Sovereign]

Okay, fair enough. Personally, I'm not assuming Imperial armies will all have access to Malefic Daemonology yet (and if they do, I'll pass on giving it to my loyalists, because FLUFF), but for the purpose of this thought exercise, I'm down.

My Orks could probably benefit from horrors and a herald of Tzeentch...

[ElectricPaladin]

It makes sense to me, fluffwise. Radical Inquisitors summon Daemons - why shouldn't the more pragmatic sorts of Astartes, Astera Militarum psykers, and so on? The fluff evolves in this game. I'm cool with that.

[Tepogue]

Of the primary list, assuming Horrors get to roll for powers, they are the best all around. My second would depend on my opponent, bloodletters for ap3 or daemonettes if fighting 2+ armor save models. I'm assuming summoned units can't claim or deny objectives so plaguebearers are dead last.

On the other list, screamers are my top choice, them khorne/fiends based on the AP I need to crack.

[DrBored]

Keeper of Secrets, Daemonettes, Seekers of Slaanesh, and Fiends of Slaanesh. Hard to beat such a fast unit that also gets lots of attacks and rends.

[daboarder]

I look very forward to summoning swarms of plague drones with my ML3 Nurgle Psykers

love the models just havent had an excuse to pick them up yet.

as to the small guys, I'd go nurglings, mostly because I have a conversion in mind for them that should be a damned site cheaper than the plastic crack versions

[Lord Krungharr]

Whoa! These are neat powers. I totally think the Primaris Daemons would be scoring if every unit is scoring now like the rumors say (but Plaguebearers still suck).

I really like the sound of the Cursed Earth for Obliterators. Either Tzeentchy ones for a 3+, or Nurgley ones for T5 w a 4+. That, and the no scattering deal is freakin' amazing! I can forsee a ridiculous Unbound army of Nurgley Oblits, Fearless Cultists w a Helbrute, and a few Mastery 3 Sorcerers on bikes or with jumppacks summoning Daemons. Fun FUn FUN!

[Badtucker]

you realise the WD article about the DA using demon powers was playtesting.

[Wolfshade]

BA definitely Bloodletters.

Blood for the Bloo...erm...Sanguinius!

[Weidekuh]

As an Eldar player there can't be anything else than a deamon of Slaanesh. ;)

[Theik]

Assuming this list is legit, I'm guessing feel no pain is now considered a save, else you could not feel being turned into a demon herald.

[ElectricPaladin]

you realise the WD article about the DA using demon powers was playtesting.

Yes, but... the White Dwarf is assumed to be an informational piece. They want to tease us with what we're actually going to get. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the playtest details they share are based on aspects of the game that survived the playtesting process. Otherwise, they wouldn't be teasing us - they'd be wasting our time. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty confident. I'd put money on it.

Anyway, what I find most interesting about this thread is that I'm not seeing a lot of variance by army. It seems like everyone has just got their favorite species of Daemon, and that's what they recommend. I wonder why that is.

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Except...


BA definitely Bloodletters.

Blood for the Bloo...erm...Sanguinius!

Care to explain why?

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And...


As an Eldar player there can't be anything else than a deamon of Slaanesh. ;)

Is that just because it's hilarious? :D

[Lord Asterion]

I'd say we should calm down on this until we see who has access to Malefic powers and what penalties they'd get for using them (which was implied in this weeks White Dwarf to be a thing unless you're a Daemon.)

[Wolfshade]

Care to explain why?


Yes. BA are clearly Khorne worshipers, DC are just Berzerkers in black, totes obvs. dude.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yes. BA are clearly Khorne worshipers, DC are just Berzerkers in black, totes obvs. dude.

Heresy! We will slaughter you and your whole family and drink your blood in a... oh, uh, huh, I guess I see why you might have made that mistake. Terribly sorry.

[Wolfshade]

Also, Sanguiniator manifesting by the will of the bangles, sounds like deamon summoning to me!

[Xaric]

Nurgle do not suck sacrfice get a nurgle herald with FNP locus :D yay plaguebearers can keep getting FNP if they loose there herald :P

[ElectricPaladin]

I guess I'll start things off with my own inexpert unit analysis.

Bloodletters

T 3 and a 6+ invulnerable save makes these Daemons pretty fragile. They've got a higher than average WS, which is nice, but only an average number of attacks. The AP 3 on their swords is nice, though, and their Daemon of Khorne special rules (Furious Charge). I'd recommend this to any army that lacks a hard-hitting "fire and forget" melee unit.

As a result, I actually don't think these guys fit in well with the Blood Angels, though they might do ok with other Space Marine armies. We have Death Company in the Blood Angels. These guys are great, but they don't bring anything to the table that we don't already have. That said, I bet that bloodletters would make a good summon for the Astra Militarum, Dark Angels, Eldar, and Space Marines, all of whom could use them to tie up a shooting unit they don't want to deal with just yet or soften up a unit for later removal by ranged weapon.

Pink Horrors

With a mediocre statline - mostly 3s, one attack apiece, and no save at all - these guys are not about getting into combat. What they do have is Ld 10 when manifesting their single psychic power from the Change Discipline (thanks, Tzeentch!). Rolling over to the Change Discipline, I can see that most of its powers are straight up shooting in the 24'' area.

Overall, I think these pink dudes could work well with any army. In particular, however, I think that they will excel with any army that is already good at close combat and wants to get up close and personal with the enemy, but might like some shooting support before charging into close combat. The Blood Angels codex, Orks, and some Space Marine and Dark Angel builds, for example.

Plaguebearers

As has been mentioned, these guys are basically hardy objective-holders. With their plagueswords, they aren't bad in combat against superior foes and they can screw up tanks. Being Daemons of Nurgle makes them slow-moving, but helps them to take advantage of terrain (Shrouded).

I see these guys are good for any army that wants to advance across the table and potentially summon Daemons to leave behind on objectives while moving the rest of the army forwards. Orks, some Space Marine and Dark Angel playstyles, some Astra Militarum lists, and potentially Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Blood Angels interact with plaguebearers in a particularly interesting way - on the one hand, Blood Angels sometimes struggle to bring scoring units to the table and then keep them alive. On the other hand, Blood Angels don't always move across the board - your psyker can't drop some Daemons on an objective if he's Deep Striking!

And, of course, there's the problem that we don't know if summoned units can score and we don't know exactly how scoring is going to work in the new edition.

I'd say that plaguebearers have the potential to be useful for many armies as hard-to-remove scorers and speedbumps... but the final verdict is probably out until we see the new edition.

Daemonettes

Fleet and Rending are both great rules that help this unit get into close combat and then perform effectively there. Their high number of attacks (20 attacks on a unit of 10, 30 on the charge!) makes that Rending special rule particularly nasty. As has been mentioned, they are good for any army that struggles to kill anything that needs death by a thousand cuts, like terminator squads. They are going to have a harder time killing massed MEQs. They're probably also pretty effective at killing hordes with lousy armor saves.

The horde armies - Orks and Astra Militarum - want to avoid these guys. Anyone who struggles to bring big units to the table - Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Eldar, Grey Knights, and Space Marines - could find them very useful. However, some of those armies, the Blood Angels in particular, don't really need that much help winning in close combat (though the higher Daemonette Initiative score could be useful in some circumstances), which makes these gals less appealing.

Flesh Hounds

Six attacks hitting at Strength 5 on the charge? That's pretty good, but it's not really good enough to appeal. I don't know what the Collar of Khorne is going to do in the new edition, so I can't speak to their potential utility as an anti-psychic unit. Overall, though, I am not impressed. In the context of a Daemons army, with their Scouts rule allowing them to redeploy or Outflank, I can see them as useful, but as a summoned unit? Not so much.

Flamers

Their basic stats are a little more impressive than those of the Pink Horrors, but their low WS means that I'd still like to keep them out of combat. Their real strength is in their 4/4 Assault 1 flamers with Warpflame. I can see them as very useful for any unit that needs screening - put your opponent in a position where he has to go through the flamers to get to your unit. The flamers get 3d3 decent automatic hits in Overwatch. Which is sure to tie the enemy up, possibly even keep them tied up so that you can get the charge off. Of course, we don't know if Overwatch has changed, and we don't know if the rumors of consolidating-into-combat are true... but it's still an interesting tactic. As a result, I'd recommend these - with some reservations - to everyone who get the Pink Horrors as a recommendation.

Nurgling Swarm

I don't actually recommend these guys to anyone. I know they're supposed to be awesome, but without the ability to Infiltrate, and with their weakness to flamers (who also ignore the extra Cover save granted by their Shrouded rule), I see them as actually disappearing pretty quickly to anyone who really wants to get rid of them. Maybe in the context of their actual codex they're good, but in the context of summoning them into another army, they're pretty underwhelming.

Seekers

I kinda like these gals, but I feel like the Daemonettes are much more likely to do what Slaanesh Daemons seem to do best - bring down their targets with weight of attacks and lucky 6s. I feel like a broken record with all the "small unit second choices" to the basic summoning options... but again, they feel like they're probably pretty good in their codex, but underwhelming as a summon.

Bloodcrushers

Now that is more like it! Strength 6 on the charge. 9 (or 12!) attacks. AP 3. Hammer of Wrath. If you can roll this power up, I see this as an excellent choice for any army. Though, again, it's probably best for anyone who can't bring their own hard-hitting melee unit, like Astra Militarum.

Screamers

These guys are also pretty tasty and, in my opinion, bring enough options - 3 attacks each for units, 1 5/2 Armorbane attacks for vehicles and other hard targets - that even armies with access to dedicated melee units could find them useful.

Plague Drones

Pretty cool, strong mobility, but underwhelming. I think I'd rather have screamers or bloodcrushers for almost any army.

Fiends

Their combination of high Initiative and Soporific Musk makes these creatures very appealing for almost any army. Again, they do a good job of being a fire-and-forget missile. With very little support, they can be summoned and then charge off and at least tie up pretty much any unit I can think of.

I'll come back in a little bit and sort these by army, with some explanations of why. In the meantime, what are your reactions to my spitballing?

[Greyheed]

Bloodletters

6+ invulnerable save

Pink Horrors

no save at all

Actually the Bloodletters have a 6+ armor save (as useless as that usually is)

Also all daemons have the Daemon special rule, which give all of them a 5+ invulnerable

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm liking Screamers, just because they could do their Slash Attacks and get some distance after placement (assuming the summoned Daemons can do stuff when they come in like after deepstriking). Then they are versatile afterwards.

I do like Bloodletters, and thematically, we know Blood Angels are just a sliver away from being Berzerkers right? They can run and Sweeping Advance too, Plaguebearers can't and that's why I don't like them anymore (they hardly ever do anything in combat too). Maybe for Glancing Land Raiders to death they might be okay. That's all I can think of for them.

If you get to pick just before summoning, Flamers might be good for anti-Infantry. And they can jump 12". Not bad.

[White Tiger88]

Um....does anyone comment here besides me own or play daemons??

Because so far it seems not.....

[ElectricPaladin]

I do now. I didn't when I started the thread, though.

[White Tiger88]

I do now. I didn't when I started the thread, though.

I meant besides you....so far all i have seen is people saying "how good something is" and they most likely haven' tried it! Well the Daemon book has lots of things that look good in practice a fair amount are useless.

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Bloodletters: Eat marines, get owned by anything with a horde.


Pink Horrors: 15 man units and hope for the best from what i have seen, might change this edition though?

Plaguebearers: Combine with Plague Drones for lots of objective holding\taking fun.

Daemonettes: Best CC troop in the game by point & Ability cost..

Flesh Hounds: Great once they have Grimory cast on them, other then that........will be shot to death.

Flamers:Horrible, how much do you want to help your opponent?

Nurgling Swarm: Annoying for the enemy....but mostly useless

Seekers: amazing in groups of 12+ with there speed and rending (Mixed with a low cost) Most people will fear these sexy ladies!

Bloodcrushers: Once more very pricy for what you get and will be 1 shoted by lots of ranged weapons.

Screamers: Will get shot to death before they can do much...... (I have never seen them get across the table against anyone with guns...)

Plague Drones: Amazing for getting units to deepstrike on behind enemy lines (That banner and speed!)

Fiends: Will get killed in one shot mostly (t3....)