IG + Black Templars SM Combo

[Katharon]

So here is a tactic that I ran into the other day whilst playing against a friend who always BB-allies with IG & Space Marines. He runs Black Templar and he came at me with a scary unit that I wasn't able to wipe out fast enough:

Chaplain in Terminator Armor, IG Ministorum Priest, and a ten-man Assault Terminator Squad with TH & SS's.

Chaplain's Hatred USR gave them re-rolling to hit, Priest's Battle Hymn let them re-roll wounds, and the TH did their usual wreckage. That unit slaughtered through two combined squads (thirty in each squad) in two rounds, one after the other. It was kind of sad really.

My question: has anyone else run into this combo or a similar play? It's got me thinking that there are a lot of different units that adding both a Chaplain and a Ministorum Priest to is going to be a dangerous combination.


[Side Note: I never play with allied forces, just IG -- but darn me if I'm not suddenly tempted to work up a small allied force now.]

[Charon]

Even if you throw 2 fearless blobs of 50 conscripts each at him you are still under the price of his unit by a large margin...

[Katharon]

Even if you throw 2 fearless blobs of 50 conscripts each at him you are still under the price of his unit by a large margin...

...and?

[Charon]

And what?
You dont have to kill him if you can get him stuck. IG has tons of weapons to reduce his unit size and when he arrives he will be fighting conscripts for all eternity.
Dont know why ppl are so obsessed with killing off units.

[Katharon]

And what?
You dont have to kill him if you can get him stuck. IG has tons of weapons to reduce his unit size and when he arrives he will be fighting conscripts for all eternity.
Dont know why ppl are so obsessed with killing off units.

Maybe you didn't read the OP clearly enough? He smashed through TWO 30-man squads of infantrymen in two turns. The combo of him re-rolling hits & wounds was stupidly effective. He literally scored 20 kills each time in a single round of combat versus only a single wound on the Chaplain and one on the Priest. I didn't have any commissars around or a Ld10 character (as if that'd matter at that point) and had to roll double-ones for Heroic Moral -- and failed. Each time the squad broke at the end of combat with almost nothing left afterwards.

I was already tied up on other ends of the board with my other army units. There was no "getting him stuck."

[Charon]

Wow he smashed through 2x 30 guardsman with ld7. Impressive I can think of cheaper units who can do exactly the same and are way faster.

He needs around 2 or 3 rounds to get to you (no LR) and he need 3 rounds of CC to chew through one blob of conscripts. Even with killing 20 off. There are still 30 more standing and you need NO morale check, cause your cheap priest (yes you can take them too) will make the entire blob fearless. So by the time he can wrestle himself free we are probably in round 5 and you can play the exact same game again with another 50 conscripts. Also hatred only works in the first round of melee.

A freind of mine does this regularly and its totally annoying as every single melee unit no matter how big or how strong will get stuck forever.

[This Dave]

Against something like that there is only a couple things I can think of to try. The first is to tarpit them. Feed it individual squads (not large combined platoons). Sure they'll kill a squad a turn but while they're doing that you kill the rest of his army or take objectives. Second is avoid them. If they're walking across the table kill the rest of his army. If they're in a vehicle blow it up first to make them walk. They can't Deep Strike with the Priest. Third, kill the offending models. If you have large combined platoons or weapon teams give them the Take Aim order and allocate the hits to the Priest and/or Chaplain. Sure he can Look Out Sir but you have a chance he'll fail a roll and you'll get them. And if not you'll still hit things in the unit so you might get a few kills anyways.

Other than that you can always declare Escalation and introduce them to Mr. Shadowsword. :)

[Katharon]

Wow he smashed through 2x 30 guardsman with ld7. Impressive I can think of cheaper units who can do exactly the same and are way faster.

He needs around 2 or 3 rounds to get to you (no LR) and he need 3 rounds of CC to chew through one blob of conscripts. Even with killing 20 off. There are still 30 more standing and you need NO morale check, cause your cheap priest (yes you can take them too) will make the entire blob fearless. So by the time he can wrestle himself free we are probably in round 5 and you can play the exact same game again with another 50 conscripts. Also hatred only works in the first round of melee.

A freind of mine does this regularly and its totally annoying as every single melee unit no matter how big or how strong will get stuck forever.

Dude, I'm aware of all that you just said. My point I am making is that this unit is a mini-Death Star in its own right. He started the game with his squad on the very edge of the deployment line and move/ran them up turn one - getting a six on the run (he always seems to make good run rolls). He was on the half-line by the end of turn one. My own deployment meant that I was within 12" when his 2nd turn came around and he did as I described before. I didn't take any Priests or Commissars because I never usually need them - and I had invested more points in other items. I'm well aware that Hatred only works in the first round of melee -- and that is precisely the only round of melee there was, as he slaughtered away over 66% of each squad each time on the first round of combat.

And I'm aware of how tarpitting works. It just so happens that in this particular situation I was not prepared to face this particular unit combo, which is why I posted about it here to see if anyone else had faced it and to get their opinions on it and not my own tactics.

- - - Updated - - -


Against something like that there is only a couple things I can think of to try. The first is to tarpit them. Feed it individual squads (not large combined platoons). Sure they'll kill a squad a turn but while they're doing that you kill the rest of his army or take objectives. Second is avoid them. If they're walking across the table kill the rest of his army. If they're in a vehicle blow it up first to make them walk. They can't Deep Strike with the Priest. Third, kill the offending models. If you have large combined platoons or weapon teams give them the Take Aim order and allocate the hits to the Priest and/or Chaplain. Sure he can Look Out Sir but you have a chance he'll fail a roll and you'll get them. And if not you'll still hit things in the unit so you might get a few kills anyways.

Again, I'm aware of all this. I am however still waiting for someone to answer my original question.


Other than that you can always declare Escalation and introduce them to Mr. Shadowsword. :)

I refuse to do Escalation on principle.

[This Dave]

Oh, you just want an opinion on that combo? Sure it's legal under the current rules and is effective. It's unfluffy as hell since pretty much no Marine is going to be inspired by the rantings of a mere human in a robe. In my opinion it's simply using the allies rules for game advantage. If you're playing in a tournament fine but I would never consider taking something like that to a pick up game.

[Charon]

You just want an opinion?
Its legal. Its effective if thrown at you unprepared.
But I guess you already figured that out.

[Charistoph]

...Each time the squad broke at the end of combat with almost nothing left afterwards....

At least they could get away. Vanguard would have just Swept them up. One reason I don't run Terminators (even though, they're cheaper).

[Blood Shadow]

Just curious, why's he packing a chaplain and a priest? Doesn't the priest provide the zealot rule too? Therefore an additional priest would make more sense to get rerolls on saves as well as wounds? And whilst you're at it why's he not got a Xenos inquisitor with rad grenades in there just to really rub it in?!

Ld 10 Inq seems like a more cost effective buff for the priests to me....

As for you why are you blobbing your guard without an inquisitor and priest in there or even a commissar at least!

Add a Xenos Inquisitor, to at least get rerolls through prescience + rad grenades to make him toughness 3, 38 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound should create a decent wound pool at int 4/3, sure he's on a 2+ but by the time he strikes he should have had to make 25+ 2+ saves...

And at least what you're doing is fluffy!

[Charistoph]

A Black Templar Chaplain can be REALLY nasty in a Challenge, though. That, and you need a BT HQ, anyway.

[Katharon]

I was actually thinking that it would be really evil to have TWO priests running in a unit (vanguard or termies) and have them each using a different Hymn (which is technically legal) and have that combined with a Chaplain's effects. I think adding an Inquisitor to that would be pure cheesevil.


A Black Templar Chaplain can be REALLY nasty in a Challenge, though. That, and you need a BT HQ, anyway.

I personally love the Black Templar special rules for their Chapter Tactics. Lives up to their fluff imho. And yeah, so long as you have your army painted accordingly, it's not entirely necessary to take Helbrecht, Grimaldus, or Emperor's Champion to have a Black Templar army (although I think the EC is pretty stout).