ASF reroll interaction.

[Kelshin]

I apologize if this is redundant, but I looked through the thread and didn't find anything quite on this topic.

So, you have a unit with ASF fighting a unit with ASF and great weapons. Both have equal initiatives. People are telling me that despite ASL on the Great Weapons having you cancel out their ASF; the first unit who still IS using it's ASF doesn't re-roll to hit. Is this indeed the case? If so, why, because the rules read to me quite the opposite way.

The argument I've been given for this interpretation is that they still possess the ASF rule, even if it doesn't apply, so that cancels the re-roll. My retort to that is that the same sentence saying that two units with ASF fighting don't get re-rolls ALSO states that they both fight simultaneously. I don't really see how you can cherry pick what you think should apply out of the middle of a sentence and ignore the rest; sounds like gaming the system to me.

[Chronowraith]

Look at the sentences at the beginning of that paragraph that state, "if a model's initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll misses when striking in close combat". Then evaluate, "neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule". Now also peer into Always Strikes Last where it states, "a model with this rule always strikes last, regardless of initiative".

Nowhere in ASL does it say it removes ASF, it simply cancels the benefit of the rule. Now is when you compare initiatives. Great Weapons do not reduce initiative, you simply strike last (as in, something with I1 would strike before you). So a High Elf with I5 and a Dark Elf with I5 are the same initiative regardless of ASF or ASL. Then move onto the last statement that states that neither model benefits from the re-rolls. The qualifier here isn't the initiative values, but rather the presence of the rule itself. As I mentioned previously, ASL does not remove ASF... the rule is still there. The striking first component of ASF simply doesn't come into play.

As for the suggestion that the last part of the sentence, "attacks are made simultaneously" this is simply a description of what normally happens when tow ASF units fight. This doesn't take into account exceptions which alter the effects of ASF.

[Kelshin]

Look at the sentences at the beginning of that paragraph that state, "if a model's initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll misses when striking in close combat". Then evaluate, "neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule". Now also peer into Always Strikes Last where it states, "a model with this rule always strikes last, regardless of initiative".

Nowhere in ASL does it say it removes ASF, it simply cancels the benefit of the rule. Now is when you compare initiatives. Great Weapons do not reduce initiative, you simply strike last (as in, something with I1 would strike before you). So a High Elf with I5 and a Dark Elf with I5 are the same initiative regardless of ASF or ASL. Then move onto the last statement that states that neither model benefits from the re-rolls. The qualifier here isn't the initiative values, but rather the presence of the rule itself. As I mentioned previously, ASL does not remove ASF... the rule is still there. The striking first component of ASF simply doesn't come into play.

As for the suggestion that the last part of the sentence, "attacks are made simultaneously" this is simply a description of what normally happens when tow ASF units fight. This doesn't take into account exceptions which alter the effects of ASF.


Yes, I know it has nothing to REALLY do with initiative. I simply included that for completness of the example. You've basically just given me the exact argument my friend did.

I'd like to discuss your first point first; that ASL does not remove ASF. ASL states "The two cancel out and neither applies." Um. Not applying and canceling means exactly that. It's not a factor at all. you simply carry on as if you were Initiative whatever, with NO special rules attached, besides whatever else you may have like Armor Piercing.

My second point, and why I think this rule is horribly written and interpreted by apparently a good deal of people incorrectly and terribly.

In my updated digital rulebook the particular sentence in question reads exactly thus. "If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally given."

If you are removing the rerolls, you MUST take the entire sentence at face value. What is it that lets you pick "no benefits from rerolls" and leave out the attacks made simultaneously part. They are both given as definitive. Now that might seem completely irrelevant until you take into account that you feel you still "have" ASF. By the logic you are presenting, if the "rule is still there" given that BOTH of those statements are given in exactly the same sentence with exactly the same emphasis, when a model with a Great Weapon and ASF fights a model with ASF, they WILL fight simultaneous even if he would just fight at their initiative against a model without ASF. Either the entire rule is true, or it's false. You can't just pick something between one set of commas to apply, and discount the rest of the RAW sentence. I know that it sounds absurd. But who are you or I to say "Oh it's just a description of what happens, it's not actually a rule." I'm fairly certain that a "description of what happens when two ASF units fight" is EXACTLY a rule. And if ASF remains to let you ignore rerolls, then it sure as hell remains to let you fight simultaneous, RAW. Again, Absurd.

I know for a fact that that sillyness (The fight simultaneous part) isn't how the game is played; which is why I think the entire thing is a matter of people just arbitrarily decided to go with one piece because it was kind of logical and benefited their army (High Elves) and ignore the other part of the exact same rule because it DOESN'T make sense at all and ignoring it lets you get away with shenanigans with the English language.

Implying that "Cancel out and neither applies" means that you still get to gain some kind of benefit is very thin at it's best. Picking one part of a sentence to work for your favor while just kind of shoving the other words in it aside seems downright ludicrous.


I am seriously not trying to be obstinate; but there are two separate bits of English that really lean towards you gain no benefit whatsoever from that rule existing on your profile, OTHER than being able to strike at your initiative. Poorly written, and needed/needs a FAQ bad. Not that I'm holding my breath on that at all. I would defer to an TO I talk to about it; but truly I think people at large have seriously misinterpreted this rule. It wouldn't be the first or last time.

[Mr Mystery]

If you have ASF, and have a higher initiative, you re-roll to hit.

Doesn't matter if your opponent has ASF, ASL or neither, if your Initiative is higher than his, you get your re-roll.

[Kelshin]

Well...equal or higher. But yeah, them having ASF DOES matter. Two units of high elf spear men fighting definitely don't get re-rolls.

But thats not the point of contention; its how ASF and ASL stack.

[Mr Mystery]

ASF and ASL effectively cancel out, meaning you strike in I order, even with a Great Weapon.

However, having a Great Weapon does not drop you to I0. It just means you normally strike last. So for the purposes of ASF re-rolls, you look at the I of the model.

For instance......

I magic up some ASF on my Ogre Bulls, who are I2. And they're in combat with some Great Weapon toting Chaos Warriors, who are I4 (possibly 5, exact value isn't important).

ASF means I get to clout them upside the head, but regardless of the Great Weapons granting the Chaos Warriors ASL, they're still a higher initiative, so no re-rolls for my Ogres.

[Chronowraith]

Canceling out does not mean that the models cease to have ASF. If someone comes along and destroys the unit's great weapons they still have ASF in their profile. There is nothing in the game that can REMOVE that. All that matters in this instance is that ASF exists on their profile.

[Kelshin]

Canceling out does not mean that the models cease to have ASF. If someone comes along and destroys the unit's great weapons they still have ASF in their profile. There is nothing in the game that can REMOVE that. All that matters in this instance is that ASF exists on their profile.

This is not a compelling argument. At ALL. Unless you think they should always strike simultaneously with other ASF units with their great weapons. Because it's the same part of the rule that speaks for both of those things at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive, according to the English language. Period. I see we decided to ignore the entirety of my last post in order to repeat what has been established. I'm not arguing that the rule is GONE. I am arguing that ASL turns it off, completely, in every single possible way, where it no longer has interaction.

And if it doesn't, then I'll argue all day that Wildwood rangers get to strike simultaneous with Witch Elves. Because that is RAW.

It's a horrible interpretation, and I feel like this particular camp has been entrenched for years and Im butting my head against a wall. So I will digress.

[Mr Mystery]

Doesn't matter which way you try to butter it matey.

Wielding a Great Weapon does not actually change your I stat. It just means you strike last. That's it.

Lets look at some comparative scenarios.

Two units with I5. No special rules or special equipment. These units strike at the same time.

Two units with I5, one of which has Great Weapons. Great Weapons grant ASL, so nice and straight forward here.

Unit with I5 with Great Weapons, unit with I2 with just hand weapons. Great Weapons again strike last.

So far, so straight forward. Now, let's introduce ASF into this equation.

Both units have I5, and ASF. Units strike simaltaneously, nobody gets a re-roll from ASF. Again, nice and straight forward.

One unit has I5, ASF and a Great Weapon. Other unit is I4, no special rules or equipment. ASF is cancelled out by ASL, and vice versa. Net results, fight is resolved in I order. I5 is higher than I4, so the Great Weapons go first, but without re-rolls. Bit more complicated, but not terribly confusing. Essentially work out each unit's buffs and debuffs separately, then compare I values.

And final example (if not final pemutation....) ASF with Great Weapon and I5, v ASF and I5. As with the first one, let's work out each unit separately. Great Weapon unit has ASF, cancellled by ASL from their Great Weapon, so they strike at the I5 step. The other unit? Well, they effectively strike at the I11 step, as ASF grants them that. However, as nobodies actual I stat is modified in any way, both count as I5 for the purposes of gaining a re-roll to hit.

In your example, Wildwood v Witch Elves. I assume both have the same Initiative stat (I don't have the Wood Elf book yet, so can't check myself).

Witch Elves have ASF, and their set Initiative value of 6. So against opponents without ASF, they will get to strike first, and if their opponent is I5 or less, will also get a re-roll to hit.

Wildwood Rangers. Being Elves, they benefit from ASF. But, they also carry Great Weapons, which they must use (as per Warhammer rulebook, you must use a non-basic hand weapon if you have one). The Great Weapons have the ASL special rule, so normally you'd strike last, regardless of I modifiers. However, ASL and ASF as already established cancel one another out, meaning the Wildwood Rangers simply revert to striking in strict Initiative order, as if they had neither rule.

Now lets put those together..... If as your suggesting Wildwood Rangers have the same Initiative as Witch Elves, then the combat works as follows....

Witch Elves strike first as they have ASF. But, as the Initiative values are tied, they don't get to re-roll to hit. And that's it. Pure and simple, no room for quibbling or dodgy 'RAW' arguments.

Witch Elves would still strike first even if the Wildwood Rangers had a higher Initiative value, because that's what ASF does for you. If it didn't, the rule itself would be pretty pointless.

[Kelshin]

Doesn't matter which way you try to butter it matey.

Wielding a Great Weapon does not actually change your I stat. It just means you strike last. That's it.

Lets look at some comparative scenarios.

Two units with I5. No special rules or special equipment. These units strike at the same time.

Two units with I5, one of which has Great Weapons. Great Weapons grant ASL, so nice and straight forward here.

Unit with I5 with Great Weapons, unit with I2 with just hand weapons. Great Weapons again strike last.

So far, so straight forward. Now, let's introduce ASF into this equation.

Both units have I5, and ASF. Units strike simaltaneously, nobody gets a re-roll from ASF. Again, nice and straight forward.

One unit has I5, ASF and a Great Weapon. Other unit is I4, no special rules or equipment. ASF is cancelled out by ASL, and vice versa. Net results, fight is resolved in I order. I5 is higher than I4, so the Great Weapons go first, but without re-rolls. Bit more complicated, but not terribly confusing. Essentially work out each unit's buffs and debuffs separately, then compare I values.

And final example (if not final pemutation....) ASF with Great Weapon and I5, v ASF and I5. As with the first one, let's work out each unit separately. Great Weapon unit has ASF, cancellled by ASL from their Great Weapon, so they strike at the I5 step. The other unit? Well, they effectively strike at the I11 step, as ASF grants them that. However, as nobodies actual I stat is modified in any way, both count as I5 for the purposes of gaining a re-roll to hit.

In your example, Wildwood v Witch Elves. I assume both have the same Initiative stat (I don't have the Wood Elf book yet, so can't check myself).

Witch Elves have ASF, and their set Initiative value of 6. So against opponents without ASF, they will get to strike first, and if their opponent is I5 or less, will also get a re-roll to hit.

Wildwood Rangers. Being Elves, they benefit from ASF. But, they also carry Great Weapons, which they must use (as per Warhammer rulebook, you must use a non-basic hand weapon if you have one). The Great Weapons have the ASL special rule, so normally you'd strike last, regardless of I modifiers. However, ASL and ASF as already established cancel one another out, meaning the Wildwood Rangers simply revert to striking in strict Initiative order, as if they had neither rule.

Now lets put those together..... If as your suggesting Wildwood Rangers have the same Initiative as Witch Elves, then the combat works as follows....

Witch Elves strike first as they have ASF. But, as the Initiative values are tied, they don't get to re-roll to hit. And that's it. Pure and simple, no room for quibbling or dodgy 'RAW' arguments.

Witch Elves would still strike first even if the Wildwood Rangers had a higher Initiative value, because that's what ASF does for you. If it didn't, the rule itself would be pretty pointless.


With all due respect, Mr. Mystery. you are SO far off base on what I'm talking about, Im really not sure you even read anything of what I said. Not one word. Literally, Initiative is not a factor in what I'm talking about AT ALL. Not even a little. I KNOW how the initiative interacts within the rule. That's not the discussion.

Also, to correct you for a second time, ASF re-rolls are EQUAL to or higher not just higher.

Seriously, you're way off on what I'm talking about. Although interestingly, I think you're actually agreeing with my point in an extremely roundabout way.

[Mr Mystery]

Have you tried making your point clearer? Because I'm not sure anyone knows what your query actually is?

[Kim Boisen]

To simplify, I believe he's looking for the question to this:

Model A with I9, ASF, Hand weapon
vs.
Model B with I2, ASF, Great Weapon

Does Model A get a reroll?

[Kim Boisen]

Anyway, the ASF rule clearly states that the initiative just needs to be EQUAL or higher to grant re-rolls on misses. It also clearly states that if both models have ASF, neither gets a re-roll.

So the question is; does a Great Weapon counteract the benefits of ASF to such a degree that an opposing model with ASF and sufficient initiative gets a re-roll? Or does he just get to strike first? - which he would get to do even if he had lower initiative.
So the contention of the OP is: Obviously the Great Weapon model gets the full benefit of his initiative, shouldn't the non-GW model get the full benefit too?

[Mr Mystery]

No.

ASF and a Great Weapon means you have both ASF and ASL. They cancel each other's effects, but not each other's presence.

[Wildeybeast]

It's taken me awhile to figure through this, but I'm pretty sure Kelshin is correct. Tbh, I've never had anyone tell me that an asf unit can't get rolls against an asf and asl unit and I don't think it is much of an issue as it hasn't been Faqed, but my logic follows like this.

Anyone trying to claim they don't get rerolls hits a logic failure. You are saying the unit still has the asf rule, but it doesn't apply due to asl. So then it doesn't apply, and none of the rules listed under asl apply, including the section about not getting rerolls.

The second you try to 'turn on' part of the asl rules and claim the asl unit don't get rerolls because the GW unit still has asf, you have to turn on all of them and they strike simultaneously. Which conflicts with the 'striking in initiative order' and/or the striking last bits of asl. And if we are arguing that asl is still there and does matter, you have to do the same with asl and apply all those rules, so you end up with a situation where you have two units fighting first, simultaneously, at I order and last. Which is utter nonsense.

So, we have to argue that regardless of whether or not they still technically have asf, it doesn't apply to the GW unit. To all intents and purposes, they don't have it and it doesn't apply. They fight as if they have neither rule, so the asf unit gets it's rerolls. Anyone claiming otherwise is logically flawed as far as I can see.

[Wildeybeast]

No.

ASF and a Great Weapon means you have both ASF and ASL. They cancel each other's effects, but not each other's presence.

With respect mate, I think you missed Kelshin's point. He isn't contesting that. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter whether it's there or not; the effects don't apply, none of them. So anyone who tries to claim that the asf unit doesn't get rerolls is wrong, since the GW unit effectively can't have asl. Any attempts to claim otherwise hit the logic mess and meandered through above.

[Theik]

Guy A had ASF and i4
Guy B has ASF, i4 and a great weapon, giving him ASL

Rules state ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, so B has i4 and no special rules

Guy A strikes first at i11 with rerolls, guy B strikes second at i4 without rerolls.

So yes, you are right, Kelshin

[Learn2Eel]

I've been playing it Kelshin's way since I started Warhammer Fantasy with High Elves two years ago. Always Strikes First and Always Strikes Last completely cancel each other out, so a model with Always Strikes First attacking a model that lost their Always Strikes First due to also having Always Strikes Last would indeed get the re-rolls based on Initiative values.

[King Chud]

Mr. Mystery covered ASF correctly. If you are looking to get your wood elf rangers to strike at the same time as dark elf witches, simply go with the Lore of Light. I think its the spell timewarp that grants ASF to a unit. The rangers would be at I characteristic for striking originally, but then would get ASF because of the spell. Any great weapon with ASF is always a frightening thing. Dark elves don't have access to Lore of Light, thank god. Their executioners have to be the meanest unit in the game, once you give them frenzy, and extra frenzy upgrades, that's more than 50 attacks of S 6 in a horde of them. They definitely can tear down an Empire calvary horde or a horde of Ironguts.





With all due respect, Mr. Mystery. you are SO far off base on what I'm talking about, Im really not sure you even read anything of what I said. Not one word. Literally, Initiative is not a factor in what I'm talking about AT ALL. Not even a little. I KNOW how the initiative interacts within the rule. That's not the discussion.

Also, to correct you for a second time, ASF re-rolls are EQUAL to or higher not just higher.

Seriously, you're way off on what I'm talking about. Although interestingly, I think you're actually agreeing with my point in an extremely roundabout way.

[Wildeybeast]

What? What are you actually talking about? You want to cast a spell that gives asf to a unit that already has asf. :confused: aside from that being totally redundant because they already have asf, it would still be cancelled out by the asl on the great weapons. The light spell that gives I10 would be useful, but not the asl one.

[King Chud]

What? What are you actually talking about? You want to cast a spell that gives asf to a unit that already has asf. :confused: aside from that being totally redundant because they already have asf, it would still be cancelled out by the asl on the great weapons. The light spell that gives I10 would be useful, but not the asl one.

So there is descrepancy problem. Does ASF and ASL by their own definition stack together? If the two rules cancel each other out, don't they stack? The Lore of Light with Timewarp and elves with great weapons is one example where the rules stack. Now take for instance, what if Wildwood Rangers encountered an ogre kingdoms Thundertusk. The Thundertusk with its icy aura causes ASL. Would the Wildwood Rangers ASL because of the icy aura? This isn't a stupid rules question, I think it deserves some clarification.

[Wildeybeast]

You can't have the same rule twice. Pretty much the whole of this debate has been about whether they still have asf/asl. They do, because it's still on their profile/weapons. The effects cancel each other out, so they act as if they aren't there when they have both, but they are still there. At no point do the rules say either/both are removed, just cancelled out. So giving them either again has no effect as they still have them.

[Learn2Eel]

So there is descrepancy problem. Does ASF and ASL by their own definition stack together? If the two rules cancel each other out, don't they stack? The Lore of Light with Timewarp and elves with great weapons is one example where the rules stack. Now take for instance, what if Wildwood Rangers encountered an ogre kingdoms Thundertusk. The Thundertusk with its icy aura causes ASL. Would the Wildwood Rangers ASL because of the icy aura? This isn't a stupid rules question, I think it deserves some clarification.

As cool as it would be, competitive High Elf players don't run Alarielle Light Councils to give their White Lions Always Strikes First. You can't have the same special rule twice unless explicitly stated otherwise, and Always Strikes First / Always Strike Last cancelling each other out does not change this. Hence, moving a Thundertusk up close to Executioners or Swordmasters for the Icy Aura would have no effect.