First Look - White Dwarf #15 The New 7th Edition 40k

[Kesher]

May we live in exciting times indeed, as it looks like 7th Edition 40k is heading our way in just a few short weeks.

Checkout our first look video review of the new White Dwarf with guest commentator Knight 12.


http://youtu.be/ovf7reNurPg

[HsojVvad]

Thankyou for sharing.

[Xaric]

My main gripe is people who are complaining they have the pay for another big rule book because they think its minor mechanic change's yet they ignore the fact the FAQ page on GW website was about 6 page's are of change's to the big rule book also now you need to think they also added a hole new phase that is going to have about 2-4 page's of rules on how to use this phase also new special rules to govern this.

The new Foc mechanic with the mission cards and such that they used like the Strategic assets in the apoc book is going to take up to 5-10 page's and also the new discipline that's most likely going to take a page up lets put it this way the 6th ed book really needed a overhaul so in total your looking at about 21 new page's of rules and stuff in the big rule book.

[Spamthulhu]

My main gripe is people who are complaining they have the pay for another big rule book because they think its minor mechanic change's yet they ignore the fact the FAQ page on GW website was about 6 page's are of change's to the big rule book also now you need to think they also added a hole new phase that is going to have about 2-4 page's of rules on how to use this phase also new special rules to govern this.

The new Foc mechanic with the mission cards and such that they used like the Strategic assets in the apoc book is going to take up to 5-10 page's and also the new discipline that's most likely going to take a page up lets put it this way the 6th ed book really needed a overhaul so in total your looking at about 21 new page's of rules and stuff in the big rule book.

Its a cash grab. They are moving codecs through so quick but they still couldn't get an ork codex done before they released a new edition? An edition I have to pay another 70+ bucks to buy?

100+ dollar models, expensive codecs, double cost single models made of plastic, electronic release codex and rules, and all this to somehow make their game better? So far it seems to have done the opposite. I have had less desire to play the game during all of this. Seems chaotic and uncontrolled. Not something a high market share player in an industry should be doing.

[Lord Asterion]

Its a cash grab. They are moving codecs through so quick but they still couldn't get an ork codex done before they released a new edition? An edition I have to pay another 70+ bucks to buy?

100+ dollar models, expensive codecs, double cost single models made of plastic, electronic release codex and rules, and all this to somehow make their game better? So far it seems to have done the opposite. I have had less desire to play the game during all of this. Seems chaotic and uncontrolled. Not something a high market share player in an industry should be doing.


You don't have to spend any money. Its your choice.

Its not a cash grab at all, the mark up on rule books is very very small, if they wanted to generate a lot of cash quickly, there are much better ways of doing it.

[Luciferiel]

You don't have to spend any money. Its your choice.

Its not a cash grab at all, the mark up on rule books is very very small, if they wanted to generate a lot of cash quickly, there are much better ways of doing it.

So, every time someone says "you don't have to spend any money. Its your choice." I have to ask; do you enjoy playing the game you've dropped enough money into over the years to have made a down payment in a car? If yes, are you not pissed that after just two years a new rule book has been created and not all the products have been fully updated for that said edition?

You must live in Egypt, near denial.

[Lord-Boofhead]

You and your logic and facts Asteron!

Damn it we all just want to run about screaming Cash Grab the Sky is falling....

[StingrayP226]

Considering other companies give away their rules for free or their rulebooks are much cheaper (for all the rules you need to play... unlike 40k where you need the Codex of your army as well)... yes it is overpriced for what it is. Honestly I don't care for all the Lore or painting/modeling tips. I just want the rules of the game... GW inflates the cost by adding a whole lot extra they could easily put in a seperate book.

The issue for 40K rulebooks being $100 on top of needing a $50 codex is the entry cost into the game. GW is pricing themselves out of the market that is being filled with more and more competitors, many of which write much better rule books. For $150 most games you can have a good sized/full sized army plus all the rules you will ever need... GW all you have are the rules.

[evilamericorp]

Its not a cash grab at all, the mark up on rule books is very very small, if they wanted to generate a lot of cash quickly, there are much better ways of doing it.

The mark up on the physical book may not be that high, the markup on the rules is ludicrous. They could bring out the tome and the starter edition rules booklet at the same time, but they don't. In order to have the new rules, you need to shell out a huge amount of money, or wait months and buy models along with the small version. Why can't they sell the small versions by themselves for $10?

[Mr Mystery]

Good lord!

You don't mean to say a Publically Listed Company......is trying to make as much money as it can

http://www.llllitl.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/star-wars-C3PO-this-is-madness-gif-run-tunning-robot-party-hard-gif-R2D2.gif

[Lord Asterion]

The mark up on the physical book may not be that high, the markup on the rules is ludicrous. They could bring out the tome and the starter edition rules booklet at the same time, but they don't. In order to have the new rules, you need to shell out a huge amount of money, or wait months and buy models along with the small version. Why can't they sell the small versions by themselves for $10?

Because are selling a hobby, part of which is a Narrative war game and part of it is painting and modelling, so the lore sections are very important, the only reason 40k is successful is the universe, if they stripped that away from the rule books, that removes the narrative part.
If you only care about the rules and not the background, you're probably playing the wrong game sorry.

[Harley]

Because being a publicly traded company which (hopefully) turns a profit clears them of any responsibility and ethics toward their products? :rolleyes:

The above arrogant, apologist posts smack of ignorance in regards to business and trade ethics. JP Morgan Chase can tell you all about offering services knowing that they weren't in the best interest of the customer. GW certainly isn't anywhere near that scale, but it serves to illustrate a point that all businesses have a responsibility toward their customer base to not knowingly deprecate the value of their own product in order to later profit from it.

GW isn't an investment banking firm or wallstreet shark just waiting to buy and drop with little regard to the effects it has on the market. They are a GAME company which chooses to make an artistic game features models and illustrations. Thus they also have a responsibility towards artistic integrity in their product.

We are missing the point though. It's not about the mark up in books. It's about tweaking the rules strategically every so often in a buff/nerf cycle in order to sell models. 5th edition was a parking lot and GW made a lot of money on vehicles, so they nerfed them in 6th and now MCs are king, which will probably be nerfed so they can sell something else. The outcome is the quality of the game suffering so that GW can make a profit. Similarly to Chase, GW offers a product or service which they know will not best suit their customer, depreciate in value and make profit off this eventual outcome... In this case it's not illegal but it's certainly reminiscent of a MSG laden Chinese buffet.

[john72383]

I loved popping a knight with my Mega Nobs, of course they were vaporized by the blast at the end but 5 power claws got it done. It sucks fighting it with Orks, a smart player would have kept it farther back and used the range to eat up boys with some las in front to get those 14 armor transports maybe a Tactical squad to keep a Wave Serpent from kicking out some Fire Warriors. Outside of the squad of Fire Warriors or a bunch of power claws jumping on it they are had to kill with out a shootie army list. Cue in the Necron and Tau lists. Nids really don't have much of a hope against this thing.

I have been looking at the Dreamforge Mortis, very Chaos looking. Screw the Allies rules, Chaos does what it wants! Run a Mortis all decked out in Tzeench an give it plus one to that invulnerable save or Khorn with the fist option instead of the sickle and get an extra attack. I love a good divided Chaos army, I keep a pile of them to beef up my troops when I am am in a big game and need a good HQ.

[Mr Mystery]

Because being a publicly traded company which (hopefully) turns a profit clears them of any responsibility and ethics toward their products? :rolleyes:

The above arrogant, apologist posts smack of ignorance in regards to business and trade ethics. JP Morgan Chase can tell you all about offering services knowing that they weren't in the best interest of the customer. GW certainly isn't anywhere near that scale, but it serves to illustrate a point that all businesses have a responsibility toward their customer base to not knowingly deprecate the value of their own product in order to later profit from it.

GW isn't an investment banking firm or wallstreet shark just waiting to buy and drop with little regard to the effects it has on the market. They are a GAME company which chooses to make an artistic game features models and illustrations. Thus they also have a responsibility towards artistic integrity in their product.

We are missing the point though. It's not about the mark up in books. It's about tweaking the rules strategically every so often in a buff/nerf cycle in order to sell models. 5th edition was a parking lot and GW made a lot of money on vehicles, so they nerfed them in 6th and now MCs are king, which will probably be nerfed so they can sell something else. The outcome is the quality of the game suffering so that GW can make a profit. Similarly to Chase, GW offers a product or service which they know will not best suit their customer, depreciate in value and make profit off this eventual outcome... In this case it's not illegal but it's certainly reminiscent of a MSG laden Chinese buffet.

One assumes that the definition of apologist here is 'anyone with an opinion differing from your own' yes? That's the general interpretation on a forum.

[Lord Asterion]

Because being a publicly traded company which (hopefully) turns a profit clears them of any responsibility and ethics toward their products? :rolleyes:

The above arrogant, apologist posts smack of ignorance in regards to business and trade ethics. JP Morgan Chase can tell you all about offering services knowing that they weren't in the best interest of the customer. GW certainly isn't anywhere near that scale, but it serves to illustrate a point that all businesses have a responsibility toward their customer base to not knowingly deprecate the value of their own product in order to later profit from it.

GW isn't an investment banking firm or wallstreet shark just waiting to buy and drop with little regard to the effects it has on the market. They are a GAME company which chooses to make an artistic game features models and illustrations. Thus they also have a responsibility towards artistic integrity in their product.

We are missing the point though. It's not about the mark up in books. It's about tweaking the rules strategically every so often in a buff/nerf cycle in order to sell models. 5th edition was a parking lot and GW made a lot of money on vehicles, so they nerfed them in 6th and now MCs are king, which will probably be nerfed so they can sell something else. The outcome is the quality of the game suffering so that GW can make a profit. Similarly to Chase, GW offers a product or service which they know will not best suit their customer, depreciate in value and make profit off this eventual outcome... In this case it's not illegal but it's certainly reminiscent of a MSG laden Chinese buffet.

Except that is not what they do, the rules are written to produce a fun wargame using the cool models. They don't have a strategy laid out for what each edition will make more powerful to boost sales and you have absolutely nothing to back up that statement.

They right the rules for the model, if a new cool model comes out, the rules writers give it cool new rules.

[Harley]

One assumes that the definition of apologist here is 'anyone with an opinion differing from your own' yes? That's the general interpretation on a forum.

No, in this case an apologist is someone who creates justification for a controversial event or completely denies it's existence in order to support their own glossed over version of reality. In most cases it is because this fiction, which they will vehemently defend, is more palatable than reality. Below is a great example of an apologist post:


Except that is not what they do, the rules are written to produce a fun wargame using the cool models. They don't have a strategy laid out for what each edition will make more powerful to boost sales and you have absolutely nothing to back up that statement.

They right the rules for the model, if a new cool model comes out, the rules writers give it cool new rules.

[Caitsidhe]

One assumes that the definition of apologist here is 'anyone with an opinion differing from your own' yes? That's the general interpretation on a forum.

That isn't my definition. There are lots of people who disagree with me and I don't define them an apologist. I define an apologist as a person that no matter WHAT happens or WHAT is released, said person is immediately in there defending it or championing it. To the apologist, Games Workshop can do no wrong. Shills at least I can respect. They are paid to do what they do. I don't like shills because they are unethical but I can understand needing to make a buck.

You cannot spot an apologist by a single post. You have to observe them over a long pattern. You can engage them in a debate and evaluate how they support their Pollyanna attitude. While it isn't fair to call anyone an apologist or a shill on the basis of just a few posts, the truth of the matter does become self-evident over time. There are people here, for example, who have never posted the slightest disagreement with ANYTHING Games Workshop has done (assuming they weren't actively promoting it instead). That boggles the mind and is as patently stupid as those who never have anything nice to say about Games Workshop and refuse to give credit where credit is due.

[dawnofthedead]

I agree with Harley on GW's business ethics. They know exactly what they are doing. If you don't think the board dictates which direction the game goes so the can maximize there profits you are not familiar with this kind of business. It was pretty obvious in 6th edition. Either you deal with it or you don't. The problem is we as a community will lose more players this next edition and the increasing cost will make it harder to attract new players. This isn't good for the game, community, or GW's business. Just my two cents.

[Eldar_Atog]

They right the rules for the model, if a new cool model comes out, the rules writers give it cool new rules.

I don't believe GW has an overall strategy.. If they do, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I look at things like the mandrakes and there doesn't seem to be a plan. The models were top notch but their rules insured that they will rarely see play. Other times, they make great rules for something that hasn't ever had a model. Warlocks on jetbikes would be a good example.

GW has always seemed more like an alcoholic parent than a master planner. It walks in somedays and belts you across the face. On other days, it drunkenly walks in and gives you 20 dollars for not mowing the yard.

[D6Damager]

I don't believe GW has an overall strategy.. If they do, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I look at things like the mandrakes and there doesn't seem to be a plan. The models were top notch but their rules insured that they will rarely see play. Other times, they make great rules for something that hasn't ever had a model. Warlocks on jetbikes would be a good example.

GW has always seemed more like an alcoholic parent than a master planner. It walks in somedays and belts you across the face. On other days, it drunkenly walks in and gives you 20 dollars for not mowing the yard.

You sir...win the thread!

[Lord Asterion]

No, in this case an apologist is someone who creates justification for a controversial event or completely denies it's existence in order to support their own glossed over version of reality. In most cases it is because this fiction, which they will vehemently defend, is more palatable than reality. Below is a great example of an apologist post:

Sorry, i missed the part where you provided anything other than your own butthurt to back up your claims that GW change rules to encourage a particular type of unit with a view to changing that in the future to generate more sales. I apologise, your evidence is overwhelming and you are obviously correct.

- - - Updated - - -


That isn't my definition. There are lots of people who disagree with me and I don't define them an apologist. I define an apologist as a person that no matter WHAT happens or WHAT is released, said person is immediately in there defending it or championing it. To the apologist, Games Workshop can do no wrong. Shills at least I can respect. They are paid to do what they do. I don't like shills because they are unethical but I can understand needing to make a buck.

You cannot spot an apologist by a single post. You have to observe them over a long pattern. You can engage them in a debate and evaluate how they support their Pollyanna attitude. While it isn't fair to call anyone an apologist or a shill on the basis of just a few posts, the truth of the matter does become self-evident over time. There are people here, for example, who have never posted the slightest disagreement with ANYTHING Games Workshop has done (assuming they weren't actively promoting it instead). That boggles the mind and is as patently stupid as those who never have anything nice to say about Games Workshop and refuse to give credit where credit is due.
What if you don't believe anything GW has done is that bad?

People call me an apologist because I enjoy my hobby and don't waste my time getting angry about the company that produces it. Thats their problem, they obviously have enough free time to spend it on hobbies they hate.

[Eldar_Atog]

You sir...win the thread!

*sniff* I always knew I'd make it someday :)

[Mr Mystery]

See, thing is....let's look at my post.

People getting curiously upset that a Limited PLC, with shareholders, is attempting to ensure they're making as much money as possible, as is their obligation to aforementioned shareholders.

And that somehow makes me an apologist? A (somewhat sarcastic) statement of fact?

That's some curious logic you're demonstrating.

Every single product any company in the world can be described as a 'cash grab', on account it is largely accurate. I very much doubt any company has secretly really hoped a product fails and loses them money (after all, The Producers is only a film/stage show). Yet GW have bile and vitriol piled upon them for this because........reasons??

[Lord Asterion]

See, thing is....let's look at my post.

People getting curiously upset that a Limited PLC, with shareholders, is attempting to ensure they're making as much money as possible, as is their obligation to aforementioned shareholders.

And that somehow makes me an apologist? A (somewhat sarcastic) statement of fact?

That's some curious logic you're demonstrating.

Every single product any company in the world can be described as a 'cash grab', on account it is largely accurate. I very much doubt any company has secretly really hoped a product fails and loses them money (after all, The Producers is only a film/stage show). Yet GW have bile and vitriol piled upon them for this because........reasons??

Because our hobby attracts more than its fair share of socially maladjusted folks that feel a bizarre sense of entitlement to a product made by a company who misplace their anger at not being able to afford all the models they want to buy by directing it at the company producing those models. Heck, people complained last month when GW gave away a free model!
People call GW a greedy and soulless company, forgetting that they're one of the few big manufacturers that still operated almost solely in the UK! They employ hundreds of people in the UK when they could get the product made much cheaper in China, like Mantic do, if they were really only interested in money, they'd go that route, you think finecast has quality control issues? You've not seen what companies using plastic resin, like the afore mentioned Mantic, class as good casts.

(incidentally, Dread Ball is one of my favourite games ever, I played it just last night and I love it, Dead Zone is also excellent, they make amazing rule sets, but their models leave a lot to be desired)

[dawnofthedead]

I don't see these people as having the whole entitlement thing going. You got to understand where these guys are coming from. It is probably the only hobby they have and it's their way to get out and socialize once a week from very busy lives. When you start messing with the rules a lot and changing things that don't make sense sometimes people are going to get upset and defensive. It is threatening to this down time. This is what you got to understand. Entitlement has nothing to do with it.

Whether you think GW's business model is good or bad is up to the individual. Whether you are a fanboy or a disgruntled player everybody has a right to be heard with out being attacked on their post. IMO

[Mr Mystery]

Unless you have a positive opinion. Then you're clearly on drugs.


Apparently.

[Lord Asterion]

I don't see these people as having the whole entitlement thing going. You got to understand where these guys are coming from. It is probably the only hobby they have and it's their way to get out and socialize once a week from very busy lives. When you start messing with the rules a lot and changing things that don't make sense sometimes people are going to get upset and defensive. It is threatening to this down time. This is what you got to understand. Entitlement has nothing to do with it.

Whether you think GW's business model is good or bad is up to the individual. Whether you are a fanboy or a disgruntled player everybody has a right to be heard with out being attacked on their post. IMO

Except GW hasn't really changed the way 40k is played in 25 years, the size of games has changed, yes, the amount of models on the table and the size of them is much bigger now, the rules are pretty different but the core of 40k is the same as it ever was. Its a set of rules to allow you and friends to play out battles in the 41st millenium, its based on the British traditions of gaming where winning isn't the done thing, its about taking part and having fun and seeing what happens. From the Rouge Trader days, its been a medium for story telling, not a sport.

Complaining, calling GW evil and demanding they accommodate your whims when they aren't making the game you want them to make is the very epitome of entitled.

[deinol]

The silly theory that GW makes some units good and other units bad to drive sales doesn't make any business sense. They want all of their models to be good because they need high sales across the board. It's far better to make every unit a viable choice so players will want some of each.

Although I just realized that the dual kits make an excellent hedge against a unit being unpopular. Hardly anyone is going to be fielding Hydras because they lack interceptor. On the other hand, the Wyverns appear to be decent bang for their buck. GW would prefer every IG player build three of each, so by the nerf/buff theory they should have made Hydras awesome as well to sell twice as many kits.

Or perhaps the reality is, the game is complex, GW doesn't playtest with an eye to tournaments, and they just don't always get it right when it comes to balance?

The swingy nature is much more likely that when they try and change something, half the time they overcorrect and either nerf too much or buff too greatly.

My biggest worry is they've changed the game such that psykers are now mandatory or you'll be stomped in the other player's psychic phase. At this rate, I will have never fielded a psyker in 6th ed, but I guess I should go ahead and build some. (Edit: I just realized I have fielded psykers. Every game I've played I've had a Shadowseer. But those are really more like guys with one special rule than true psykers.)

[dawnofthedead]

Actually 40k has changed a few times in a major way. I started playing 40k when it was rogue trader. I have see it all. In 6th escalation, stronghold assault, data slates, and formations where a big change. Flyers too. If the rules don't matter play star grunt and you can everything 40k has to offer. The rules are what gives the narrative flavor and substance. An enjoyable experience. Asking for balanced and strong rules is not necessarily in the realm of tournament players. Pick up games with big groups are easier also.

As far as a sport GW seems to have promoted tournament play in 3rd through 5th. Rogue trader tournaments to hard boys. I would say their position changes from time to time. Narrative play hasn't always been the focus.