Chapters potentially founded from Traitor geneseed?

[Crazy Jedi]

So reading the wiki's, and just general forum discussions over the years, there always appear to be some chapters who have flaws in their geneseed that don't match up with any parent chapter. Some also have a doctrine of combat, or a culture reminiscent of some particular Astarte forces that went all teenager on the Emperor.

Of course we have the Blood Ravens, whom some theorize could be founded using Thousand Sons geneseed.
Similarly, there is speculation that Minotaurs and Charchardons may have been created from Warhound and Night Lords geneseed.

We know that there are banks housing geneseed of the traitor legions on Terra, and that the High Lords sometimes try to "experiment" when founding chapters.

So what are all of yall's thoughts? Have Space Marine chapters been founded using the geneseed of traitors? Is it possible? Likely? Even accidental?

- - - Updated - - -

And in honor of the History Channel:

Were some Space Marine Chapters founded using the geneseed of those legions who betrayed the Emperor? Ecclesiarchy and Inquisitorial agents say no; but our Traitor's-seed theorists suggest that this might be so.

[TB0N3]

Finally, someone shares my theories about minotaurs and spacesharks!!
I suspect from most "cursed foundation" chapters, and some of the chapters involved in the Imperium side of the Badab War (Red Scorpions, Fire Hawks, Red Hunters, Star Phantoms... even Astral Claws)
I think this is a deliberate -not accidental- attempt to use the "uncorruted" geneseed from the corrupted Legions. It's also kinda fishy that most of those chapters are specialized in marine-vs-marine warfare...

[Mr.Pickelz]

Minotaurs could be related to World Eaters. Before the Butcher's Nail implant stuff, World Eaters and Minotaurs kinda match up with aggressive warfare styles, little to no prisoners, and they are known for running into the thick of things in a slightly to above normal psychotic rage... Look up the character Contempter dreadnought that Forgeworld makes. He went complete nutty on allied forces when someone took a pot-shot into some of his buddies.

[Crydon Games]

Not sure what I believe, but I can definitely see the Inquisition doing stuff like that. Might account for some of the recently fallen chapters, ie Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs.

[Quaade]

There's a hypothesis that the Charcadons are actually a "lost" expedition fleet of War Hounds that were sent on a Crusade way before Angron was rediscovered and the Heresy. This hypothesis can explain why a lot of their gear is MkII and III.

It also fits well with their combat doctrines and general fighting style.

[Katharon]

There's a hypothesis that the Charcadons are actually a "lost" expedition fleet of War Hounds that were sent on a Crusade way before Angron was rediscovered and the Heresy. This hypothesis can explain why a lot of their gear is MkII and III.

It also fits well with their combat doctrines and general fighting style.

Which would make for an interesting book series on a Pre-Heresy space marine force somehow being transported to the 41st millenium and then having to reintegrate.

[Crazy Jedi]

Which would make for an interesting book series on a Pre-Heresy space marine force somehow being transported to the 41st millenium and then having to reintegrate.

I assume things would rapidly escalate into a Benny Hill-esque chase scene until everybody realizes it was all just a big misunderstanding, gets some beers and laughs it off, and then are purged by the Inquisition.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's important to remember that there's a difference between lost traitor legion loyalists returning to the fold and deciding to forget where they came from - Blood Ravens and the aforementioned Carcharadons theory - and chapters founded from traitor geneseed in the post-Heresy era. The latter is pretty rare. Remember that the Imperium is a superstitious place, and they tend to believe that geneseed is a lot more determinative than it really is. Most of what I've read points to the idea that in actuality - except for the genetic flaws, of which betraying the Imperium is not one - geneseed is geneseed is geneseed, and it doesn't really matter where it comes from.

That said, there does seem to be some sort of sympathetic "law of contagion" style logic to the way Chaos works. If your Primarch pledges his gene-sons to Chaos, Chaos can then go on to mutate them more easily even if they remain individually pure. A person in a position of mortal authority can do the same thing, albeit to a more limited degree - consider the story of the Mortarion, the Death Guard, and what happened to the Terminus Est. So, perhaps there really is a danger to chapters who are founded from traitor geneseed...

Let's take the Blood Ravens as our example, as an all-but-confirmed Thousand Sons successor. How have they escaped the fate of the crew of the Terminus Est?

My personal theory is that an Astarte's symbols and rituals - even down to the color of their armor - have meaning. By eschewing the signs of their former chapter and creating a whole new set of ranks, titles, and badges based around a new, but still related enough to capture their belief, set of symbols, they have psychically severed themselves from their gene-father. Perhaps there would still be some susceptibility, but the fact that they, and many thousands of humans whose lives they have touched by saving them from various terrible foes, believe them to be something different gives them some measure of protection.

The same could be said for the Carcharadons, who could have been saved by adopting the shark as their badge, the maori tattoos, and whatever other rites and rituals they maintain in secret aboard their roving battle barges.

Some of this is an elaborate justification for my personal take on the Knights of Blood, who I like to imagine having been put in a dangerous position by their exile. I like to imagine that being placed beyond the Emperor's light, even symbolically, by their renegade status has exposed them to Chaos to a greater degree, but that by maintaining the customs of their chapter - Blood Angels fondness for art, elaborate dueling customs to channel their rage, badges that honor them for pro-social behavior like saving their battle brothers and showing kindness and mercy to mortals - they are able to protect themselves. I was a Religion major in college (I teach science now... go figure) and I like the idea that symbols and rituals have real meaning, even if it's just the psychic power of the participants' belief.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

All the Dark Angels successors.

*runs*

[Haighus]

I agree it makes great sense for the Minotaurs (who Forge World keeps "redacting" their geneseed origin) and for Blood Ravens, but I think Charcarodons have several genemarkers that are consistent with Raven Guard geneseed, and they possess an appearance not too dissimilar to Raven Guard, as well as favouring tactics that could be derived from Raven Guard tactics (namely the careful reconnaissance followed by a rapid strike).

[Charon]

Every chapter that starts with "we dont know who our primarch is" is pretty suspicious.

[David Crossley]

If I recall correctly it's heavily suggested that the Charchardons are a 2nd founding Raven Guard Chapter made up of those that didn't turn out entirely right (but also not completely wrong either) from Corax's experiments.

[jifel]

The Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors, and it's everything but Facebook Official. The other ones, I'm less sure about...

Minotaurs feel like Iron Warriors successors. Brutal, Greek theme, well equipped, calculated fury, siege excellence. They're what the IW would have been if the Emperor had used them to their full potential.

Carcharadons are rumored to be Raven Guard, but could be Night Lords. Seeing as the marines are two sides of the good/evil coin it's hard to say. The problem is that we know little about the tactics of the Warhounds because they were replaced with the Butchers Nails, which is its own tactic.

[Chrissnorek]

In reading the Badab War I am surprised how many people miss the fact that it's a retelling of the Horus Heresy with the players flipped. Bear with me for a minute but I think you'll see the similarities.

We all know the heresy legions and their roles/sides so I will skip that piece.

Horus = Huron (even the name is similar) a charismatic leader who rebels against the strictures of the Imperium and coerces a number of chapters to back his cause.

This is where the sides change; Red Scorpions = Emperors Children, Minotaurs = Iron Warriors, Carcharodons = World Eaters, etc.

On the other side you have traitor versions of the Horus Heresy loyalists; Executioners = Imperial Fists, Mantis Warriors = White Scars, Lamenters = Blood Angels, etc.

I personally think this is a very cool study of nature vs nurture. How much impact did the heresy of the respective primarchs taint their legions versus the mere presence of their genetic material? Could The Emperor's Children remain loyal if Fulgrim had not turned?

[Katharon]

We already know that upwards of 5,000 Space Marines from the various traitor legions did not follow their respective primarchs into the Heresy. Otherwise Horus would not have had to purge his own ranks at the Battle of Istvaan III. So clearly, while some legions are more genetically inclined to be submissive in following their respective primarchs (Word Bearers), it is not a clear-cut case of such being solely on the genetic level. The malign influence of Chaos has a much greater influence, in my opinion, than anything else.

[Magos Bellum]

If I recall correctly it's heavily suggested that the Charchardons are a 2nd founding Raven Guard Chapter made up of those that didn't turn out entirely right (but also not completely wrong either) from Corax's experiments.

It's all but stated outright in HH:3 Extermination, in the Raven Guard background section that the Charchardons are the successors of 19th Legion units that were effectively exiled from the legion when Corax took command for being a bit too bloodthirsty and ruthless.

[Katharon]

Page Number?

[m3g4tr0n]

Minotaurs feel like Iron Warriors successors. Brutal, Greek theme, well equipped, calculated fury, siege excellence. They're what the IW would have been if the Emperor had used them to their full potential.


That's a really good point. Loyalist Iron Warriors would be plausible, since they were so spread out. I can't imagine they'd be taken in by the Imperial Fists, so forming their own chapter would be the ideal plan.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

We already know that upwards of 5,000 Space Marines from the various traitor legions did not follow their respective primarchs into the Heresy. Otherwise Horus would not have had to purge his own ranks at the Battle of Istvaan III. So clearly, while some legions are more genetically inclined to be submissive in following their respective primarchs (Word Bearers), it is not a clear-cut case of such being solely on the genetic level. The malign influence of Chaos has a much greater influence, in my opinion, than anything else.
Whilst I agree with your point in principle i feel bound to point out that the Word Bearers did their purging early (Brotherhood), but even they still had to. In fact ofall the Chaos Legions they are the most likely to have had their gene seed re-used (no physical flaws) and least likely to have any reabsorbed into the loyal legions after the Heresy ('cos they were killing all their loyalist off before Horus even took his little coma jaunt with the ghosts of chaos christmas past and future).
So keep you eye out for a violently intolerant bunch of marines with an overabundance of faith in the concept of a god emperor, they're probably from the......... oh wait that's all of them.

[Glyn]

interesting indeed, the Blood Ravens are all but flagged up as Thousand Sons successors and given the story through the Retribution campaign mood they fight off corruption with the pure few within their ranks its very believeable they are more so given the parallels such as gathering knowledge from any source regardless of it "chaosness" and guarding it the fact they were led by the librarians as opposed to the captains. Loyalist Iron Warriors yeah i can see that as I think that every legion held loyalists and with so many chapters created in the second founding it would have been easy for Guilliman to "sneak" those loyal survivors into the founding under new names fairly easily.

and yes the Dark Angels and their successors would be an example of a "fallen" legion that is still used in the process of making new chapters but its a very shaky arguement given only half the legion fell and it was more ego that caused it than outright chaos tendancies.

if i had to point a finger at some overly obsessed unforgiving marine chapter similar to that of the Word Bearers, the Iron Hands come to mind rather quickly as a possible sanctuary for survivors of the Word Bearers to go and hide and maybe be accepted.

[Magos Bellum]

Page Number?
Pages 138 and 140.

[OzDestro]

Great to see this idea back up and running!
I think the link between the Carcharodons and the pre-Heresy pre-"nails" World Eaters/ War Hounds has to be there.
It's too cool an idea not to go with!
Crusade-era War Hounds return from deep space to see their brethern turn to Chaos and the Imperium rebirths tham as Minotaurs or Carcharodons.


I wrote a fair bit about it here: http://www.ozdestro.com/blog/are-the-mysteriouscarcharodons-actually-war-hounds (http://Great to see this idea back up and running! I think the link between the Carcharodons and the pre-Heresy pre-"nails" World Eaters/ War Hounds has to be there. It's too cool an idea not to go with! Crusade-era War Hounds return from deep space to see their brethern turn to Chaos and the Imperium rebirths tham as Minotaurs or Carcharodons. I wrote a fair bit about it here: http://www.ozdestro.com/blog/are-the-mysteriouscarcharodons-actually-war-hounds if you're interested.) if you're interested.

The pre-heresy/ Crusade era World Eaters never fell as such - so if they did return from deep space they would be horrified to see the carnage of the Horus Heresy and even willing to join in the Badab War against the traitor!

It is interesting that HH3 mentions the 19th legion though.

[MajorWesJanson]

That's a really good point. Loyalist Iron Warriors would be plausible, since they were so spread out. I can't imagine they'd be taken in by the Imperial Fists, so forming their own chapter would be the ideal plan.

Likely the Ultramarines adopted them. Just look at the Silver Skulls.

[Katharon]

It's all but stated outright in HH:3 Extermination, in the Raven Guard background section that the Charchardons are the successors of 19th Legion units that were effectively exiled from the legion when Corax took command for being a bit too bloodthirsty and ruthless.

OK, so you're referring to the old Legion Commander Arkhas Fal who was put in charge of a "nomad predation" fleet. There is also a reference to a "Pale Nomads Chapter" that was infamous for their group of "Deliverers," Astartes who favored the use of Tactical Dreadnought Armour and were noted for their furious close combat assaults (it's mentioned that even Horus favored them, before Corax was returned to XIXth's command).

However, it's not "stated outright" and there is no mention of the Carcharodons. The only connection is the "nomad predation fleet" designation, as it is also written in the IA: Badab War book. However the theory doesn't bear too much proof for them being Pre-Heresy era Raven Guard come back to the fold.

The Carcharodons are, apparently, quite pious and religious -- venerating the Emperor as a God as well as their gene-sire (something which the great majority of Chapters do not do). They apparently do similar practices that can be seen by the Black Templars, using votive papers and scrolls attached to their armor.

So while I agree, based on what the "Imperial Amour: The Badab War" says on the subject, that the Carcharodons are indeed a Chapter descendant of the Raven Guard -- I think it would be a mistake to say that they are the very same as those that Corax sent into the edges of space 10,000 years before. Far more likely they are a Chapter that was organized during the Scouring or shortly thereafter. Either way, based on their tactics and organization, I'd say that using the Black Templar rules for them would be fitting -- far more so than the regular Raven Guard rules.

[completeHook]

The Carcharodons have their own chapter tactics, they're pretty tasty. I like that they can only be desperate allies with Imperial forces, it is a good way to represent their fluff on the table.

From Forgeworld's Space Marine Chapter Tactics for 6th ed. 40k

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf



The Carcharodons (Progenitors: Unknown)
Until their sudden arrival in the midst of the Badab Wars,
the sinister Carcharodons Chapter was little more than a
half forgotten legend, a terror of the outer dark who many
doubted existed until their bloody return. Their actions during
the battles to depose the Tyrant of Badab re-established their
reputation as chilling agents of slaughter and destruction, fit
only for the task of eradicating the enemies of the Emperor far
from the witnessing of sane men and women.

Reavers of the Outer Darkness: All models with Chapter
Tactics (Carcharodons) gain the Fear special rule. In addition,
any model in a Tactical squad with the Reavers of the Outer
Darkness Chapter Tactic special rule may exchange a boltgun
they are already equipped with for a close combat weapon
(eg, chainsword/combat blade) for free or be equipped with an
additional close combat weapon for +1 point per model. Such
changes must be represented on the model.

Blood Hunger: All units with Chapter Tactics (Carcharodons)
gain the Rage special rule after they have either destroyed an
enemy infantry unit (of any type) in an assault or forced one
to Fall Back. Place a suitable marker on any unit that gains
the Rage special rule due to Chapter Tactics (Carcharodons)
to indicate this has occurred. When one of these marked
units makes a Consolidation move, it must move towards
the nearest enemy unit that it is capable of damaging in an
assault.

A Space Marines force which uses this Chapter Tactic may only
ally or be allied with other Imperial armies, and in all cases
their relationship is that of Desperate Allies (see page 112 of
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)

[Haighus]

Having read through Book 3 Extermination's fluff on the Iron Warriors, I am now pretty sure that the geneseed of the Minotaurs comes from the Iron Warriors. As someone mentioned above, the tactics, Greek influence and preferred theatres of war matches very closely between the 2 forces. Not to mention there is confirmed loyalist Iron Warriors during the Heresy (the battle of Paramar in Book 3 is between Alpha Legion and loyalist Iron Warriors), and their extremly scattered deployment across the Galaxy lends itself to isolated pockets of loyalists surviving the Heresy and being remade into Chapters. I also find it hard to see Iron Warriors being folded into another legion- they had such a massive rift between the way their legion operated and therefore how they were perceived by all the other legions that I find it hard to see them being accepted into another- the Iron Warriors had nearly as big a rivalry with the Ultramarines as with the Fists, according to Book 3, so I doubt that they joined the Ultramarines at least. No, to my mind the surviving Iron Warriors would have formed their own Chapter(s), and the Minotaurs look fluff perfect to be one of them.

[Katharon]

The Carcharodons have their own chapter tactics, they're pretty tasty. I like that they can only be desperate allies with Imperial forces, it is a good way to represent their fluff on the table.

From Forgeworld's Space Marine Chapter Tactics for 6th ed. 40k

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf


That's pretty cool. It still does match well with the Black Templar though, in their organizational style as much as with their special rules.

[Haighus]

That's pretty cool. It still does match well with the Black Templar though, in their organizational style as much as with their special rules.
Yeah, the main difference is that Carcharodons don't have the same notions of honour and single combat as the Black Templars- they have a predatory style of combat and view the enemy more as prey than a worthy opponent. This is actually reflected in the differences in Chapter Tactics too.

[Benjamin Blanchard]

On the rules, Carcharadons are almost the same as the HH World Eaters, each is getting a bonus USR when destroying units in close combat, Furious Charge for the WE and Rage for the Sharks. Each must consolidate after winning an assault, and the Carcharadons are the only vanilla chapter which can equip its tactical squads like the Legion's ones, with bolter pistol or double close combat weapons. So World Eaters.

For the Minotaurs, my guess is that, still looking on their rules, they are a mix between Emperor's Children (the Crusader USR, as well as the "Space Marines wanting to look like Custodians", remember the Phoenix Guard) and the Iron Warriors (no morale checks nor pinning tests, and the "we do the job others don't want and take a bitter pride doing it" behaviour).

I think that, as well as for the two missing Legions, this will remain shrouded in mystery by Games Workshop, even if the clues are getting more and more obvious each year, kinda like for guys like Ahriman "I'm may be against the Imperium as it is, but I'm still loyal to Humanity".

[Lord-Boofhead]

It's important to remember that there's a difference between lost traitor legion loyalists returning to the fold and deciding to forget where they came from - Blood Ravens and the aforementioned Carcharadons theory - and chapters founded from traitor geneseed in the post-Heresy era. The latter is pretty rare. Remember that the Imperium is a superstitious place, and they tend to believe that geneseed is a lot more determinative than it really is. Most of what I've read points to the idea that in actuality - except for the genetic flaws, of which betraying the Imperium is not one - geneseed is geneseed is geneseed, and it doesn't really matter where it comes from.belief.

Actually I thinkthe later is way more likely than the former which just smacks of special snowflakeism to me

And the Space Sharks are just 3rd founding Raven Successors who too far into the void/halo stars and went full Firefly reaver.

Its pretty clear in the fluff that the 21st Cursed founding was an attempt to test and see if the Traitor's geneseed was inherently corrupt and an attempt to fix some of flaws in the loyalist gene seed (the Lamenters and The Black Dragons)

Here is my guesses some wilder than the others.

World Eaters - Minotaurs
Deathguard - Sons of Anteus
Night Lords - Doom Warriors
Alpha Legion - Blood Gorgons ?
Thousand Sons - Blood Ravens
Word Bearers - Flame Falcons ?

I have no idea about the last 3 Legions who their 21st founding folks could be.

- - - Updated - - -


So while I agree, based on what the "Imperial Amour: The Badab War" says on the subject, that the Carcharodons are indeed a Chapter descendant of the Raven Guard -- I think it would be a mistake to say that they are the very same as those that Corax sent into the edges of space 10,000 years before. Far more likely they are a Chapter that was organized during the Scouring or shortly thereafter. Either way, based on their tactics and organization, I'd say that using the Black Templar rules for them would be fitting -- far more so than the regular Raven Guard rules.

Plus their physical appearance screams of the cloned replacements created during the heresy.

The Genetic experiments of that period to me explain why the Raven Guard have the most varied successors other than that of the Ultramarines...

[Captain Bubonicus]

I assume things would rapidly escalate into a Benny Hill-esque chase scene until everybody realizes it was all just a big misunderstanding, gets some beers and laughs it off, and then are purged by the Inquisition.

Great - now I have a vision of power-armored psychopaths running around in circles to "Yakety Sax."

[Thornblood]

Ok, so I've got a few which havnt been discussed yet.

Grey Knights. Im stunned they havnt been mentioned. Among the founders were Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard), Iacton Qruze (Sons of Horus), Macer Varren (World Eaters), Cereberus (spoilers if I tell). Also theres loyalists mixed in, and these particular founders don't necessarily become Grey Knights themselves, but we dont know what the gene-seed situation is here.

The Exorcists; Again 'shrouded in mystery'. Possibly Word Bearers. Most likely (and a small amount of evidence) points to Grey Knights. Which in turn goes back to a variety of Istvann 3 survivors.

Celestial Lions; The original fluff didn't state why Inquisitor Appollyon was on their case, but that has since been ret-conned and a full novel devoted to the background leading to the 'Ork Sniper' fiasco. We have now been told that they are descendants of Dorn, but originally there was internet speculation as to why Inquisitor Appollyon wanted them wiped out, and traitor gene-seed was among the theories. If you really wanted you could still play with that background.

The Desolate Brotherhood; Just from the name. They become the Company of misery when they turn to chaos. Word Bearers by the sounds of it.

The Sons of Anteus; Cursed founding. Likely to be Iron Warriors, or Fabius' early and subtle experiements that ended with the Obliterator Virus. Most likely a combination of both.

Mentors; Lots of canon conflict and re-con with these guys but essentially they replaced the Star Scorpions in more than just a re-branding project. Obsessed with the Pursuit of Knowledge, and with no reason to have a raptor (bird of prey) as an emblem The prime candidate here is Raptorae cult of the Thousand Sons, just like the Blood Ravens. However they could be willing agents, sleeper agents, or all a bigger part of tzeentch's plan...

So six candidates (well perhaps not the Lions anymore).

[Gryphon]

I like this idea, and would like to think loyalists within the traitor legions survived, and formed seperate loyal chapters, thei true history known only to themselves, the Lords of Terra, and, perhaps, the Inquisition. The Iron Warriors are a good example of where this could occur.

[banicrhys]

Everyone is secretly Alpha Legion.

Even they don't know it.