Why do people get so vehement about the fluff?

[Commissar Lewis]

Right, I understand loving the game for the fluff. Hell, that's what got me hooked, that and the models. But some people get... rather rude when it comes to correcting someone on the fluff.

This is mostly an observation on a certain nameless topic; can't name as I'm under Inquisitorial scrutiny. But honestly, when it comes to slinging insults over a game, one needs to stop and take stock.

I dunno, just my 2 cents worth here.

[DarkLink]

Lack of maturity, inability to separate fiction from reality, inability to realize that no one really cares that much about a game, ect? /shrug/

[Gotthammer]

Because they're stupid and don't realise they're wrong and I'm right? ;)


But seriously, I don't get the personal insults, namecalling and baiting that goes on either. Argue the idea, not the person. Or better yet make a constructive comment of why you disagree and attempt to understand the other persons viewpoint if they see something differently to you. Even if you still disagree once they explain it you might at least gain a new perspective on the background and the game, which is never a bad thing in my mind.

[Commissar Lewis]

Exactly. An intelligent debate is fine, and helps people better understand things. When it devolves to petty namecalling and other immature moves, then it becomes just a bunch of people squabbling.

[Duke]

I think that the problem stems from people not wanting to make concessions I their arguments. People get all nerd-stubborn and forget themselves.

If you were talking face to face I would assume that people would be muh nicer. I agree that we should argue the topic, not the person... I will do my part to change/improve the situation.

[Sangre]

I have an immutable destiny bond that forces me to oppose a certain member of the forums. This is all.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Vorlon]

She does sound kinda cute when shes mad.... :D



40k is a deep universe and I think people tend to build their own stories around the armies they have created. Anything that contradicts/challenges the fluff or "world" they've created in their minds taken as an affront to the "reality" of said world.

Or they just need to get out of the basement or get a date :rolleyes:

[Sangre]

Your words, not mine.

[Commissar Lewis]

And judging by people's sigs, I'm guessing the FSM and MSOB thing has become like BOLS street gangs, eh?

I'll just say this for my allegiance.
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt336/MarkVonLewis/aliens-vasquez.jpg

That is all.

[Polonius]

I don't know why people get so worked up. Back in the dark days of Usenet I was on a tolkien newsgroup, and nothing got flamier than the discussion over whether balrogs had wings. Did it matter? No. Were people horribly invested? You bet.

I think the key is that the arguments are based on a lack of evidence. In a way, fluff arguments aren't discussions of facts, they're discussions of beliefs. As we can see in religion and politics, those are always the nastiest confrontations.

Humans seek meaning, and the human mind does not like ambiguity. All questions are assigned an answer, no matter how arbitrarily it's selected. That's subconscious, and can't really be stopped. What can be done is to be aware of how arbitrary that selection was, and to avoid defending it to the death.

[sirrouga]

I honestly doubt its really even about arguing about the fluff. If you look at all the "arguments" on the lounge boards here you notice that there is a group of people that practically hi-jack every post and turn it into an other name calling segment. They are just fighting for the sake of fighting, just posting stuff to see what reaction they get and keep the fire burning. And don't think for a second it is just one person on this forum doing it despite all the constant jokes made at their expense. Those that are making the jokes and fueling the fire are part of the problem as well and that already started in this post.

I consider it trolling and the main reason why I stopped posting here much and went back to previous forums. And yes, I really do think it is that bad here. Personally I wish the banhammer would start flying. If I wanted to watch a couple people argue about nothing on a constant basis I would go to my family reunion.

[Commissar Lewis]

True, true, I guess it is a gaming equivalent of a religious debate.

But yeah, that one FSM topic got way out of hand. I agree there needs to be more reining in of this kind of bickering.

[Gotthammer]

That's a good point about belief Polonius. Though in the example of the FSM argument there was the FACT and the interpretation, and the layers of background etc.

I'm of the belief that anything can be change in the 40k universe, GW does it enough on their own, so why shouldn't we the players? I prefer there being no limits - why stop at FSM? Why not marine zygotes in Eldar? if the story is cool enough I'd dig it. If it's not cool I'll try to give useful, constructive criticism rather than shooting it down out of hand.


I also agree with sirrouga that seeing the same people appearing whenever Melissia makes a post specificly to disagree with her, and only for that reason, gets very frustrating as any coherent conversation pretty quickly goes down the toilet amidst bickering over tiny scraps of semantics, pettieness and namecalling. Already this thread has gotten four replies of basically just that already...


And Lewis, I see your Vasquez and raise you Pauline Nordin (http://fighterdiet.com/blog/?page_id=1819) - strap some powered armour on and yo'll have how I see FSMs.

[Commissar Lewis]

Well, that Pauline, while ripped, I dunno there's something about Vasquez I find hot. And I'm gonna make a Vasquez model to use as a counts-as for Harker.

Forgot to add, my posting of her was meant saying I'll go with female guard, as it don't cause any problems and the guard are badass enough on their own - we don't need no damn power armor!

But yeah, I have a decent amount of respect for Melissia, she makes some good points here and there, but it seems there is a mob that always railroads her into a petty verbal fight.

[Polonius]

The question of interpretation is a good one. One day in Contracts my professor wrote the following on the black board: "no Vehicles in the park."

We spent 20 minutes discussing what that meant. Think about it, see if you understand what it means, and then ask the following questions:

Can you drive your car into the parking lot?

Can you pack a toy wagon full of picnic supplies?

Can you roller blade?

Can you take your grandfather in a wheelchair?

A very simple sentence has a very complicated meaning, doesn't it?

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Renegade]

On any forum your going to get a certain amount of bickering, if you dont like it, skip over it. I dont believe that it says you must read all posts in a topic in the rules section anywhere.

A bit of ribbing is quite fun, as is play devils advocate, and I am guessing some on here know each other well enough to do so often.

This place is far better than warseer any day, has far less trolls for starters, though that isnt hard I guess.

[rle68]

as to the topic of fluff.....

last time i checked fluff was not in the rules books :)

[Sangre]

as to the topic of fluff.....

last time i checked fluff was not in the rules books :)

BRB Page 96-183. Looks like you'd better check again, matey.

[Denzark]

But yeah, I have a decent amount of respect for Melissia, she makes some good points here and there, but it seems there is a mob that always railroads her into a petty verbal fight.

Once Bigred closed the FSM thread, I read the entire thing through end to end. 2 separate Melissisa comments - I won't bother to go back and get the exact wording but one was how she didn't support FSM either way but she was just enjoying the 'Nerdrage'. The other was to the extent that she often joins in various thread s just for the thrill of the arguement.

So lets not paint Melly as an innocent always getting picked on - she throws herself more than willingly into the fight and yes I will admit, she holds her own.

Also, 'fluff' sounds so insubstantial. Lets use canon - look it up if you're not sure. I think people supporting it get worked up becuase those going their own way often (not all) try and ram their fan fic down peoples throats as if some amateur's ramblings are supposed to be the next Da Vinci. It's like when proud parents try and say little timmy is a musical genius because he accidently farted the national anthem - a little more tedious perhaps when soemone bigs up their own imagination.

'Oh, your army has Lysander and Vulkan in - wonder how those to get to fight together is this a Fist or Salamander army?'

'Neither its the Imperial Bling Masters I designed them myself their chapter master is a female called Marneussa Calgar and they have the best pimped-up ship because they hot wired the Planet Killer and stole it off Abaddon before giving him a Power-Wedgie.'

'Oh so didn't fancy the Ultramarines then...'

'No the Smurfs are like so common dude, I wanted something exclusive.'



As for implications of people's maturity lets not get too pious. I think this is quite an adult forum, and although amazed at how long FSM went on for, the mods are actually quite willing to put someone back in their box, so please don't preach and try to establish some moral highground - a good expletive here and there can be tres amusent. The amount of times people post saying 'I never go to dakka or B&C anymore' seem to imply the balance is right here.

If you require me to use some harsh anglo-saxon inflection to back up my points please let me know.

That is all.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Denzark]

I might even act my age in a decade or so. But last night I drank an entire bottle of mead with an old boss of mine so there.

[Polonius]

Of course, canon and fluff aren't synonyms. Most people aren't horribly concerned with canon, they're interested in the background of their army. Their army, not the canonical army. Reducing all discussions on the 40k background to canon is like reducing Jazz to sheet music: it's missing the point.

I'm not saying that there isn't value to the canon, but rather that canon is canon, and it's the foundation for fluff, but it's not the whole thing.

Denzark makes some good points, in that appreciating self made fluff and canon are different. Of course, expressing that though indirectly by ranting against some straw man didn't exactly convince anybody that wasn't already on his side.

A lot of fan made fluff is equal to, if not better than the thumb nail sketches everything outside of the biggest chapters recieves. I mean, look at Biel Tan, or any Mordian IG regiment: do we know anything about them (as fighting armies), aside from a color scheme, a basic philosophy, and maybe some favorite units?

Creating fluff isn't just allowed, it's essential.

[Duke]

In response to the op... I love it when people write great fluff. Especially of they are going to go way out of their way to convert the army to look like the fluff. Fluf makes the game fun.

Also, denzark has a point in that the people getting ganged up on aren't vary innocent we all take it and dish it out. I can tell you that there are very cordial relationships between a lot of "us" in fact I would go as far as calling us friends who like to disagree.

Duke

[rkiviman]

Imagination is what is great about this game. From the models to the story lines. "Fluff" is just meant to have fun and use our already overstressed imaginations to create a Fantasy world?? Can you imagine that?? This game and its "Fluff" is about enjoyment ( whether a nerd or not) sportsmanship and creativity!!By the way enough is the word imagination used enough here? :eek::D

[rle68]

BRB Page 96-183. Looks like you'd better check again, matey.

ok matey let me fix it so you understand.. fluff isnt a rule in the rule book you have a nice day

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Melissia]

Because they feel the desire to scratch my urge to debate.

As for me, innocent? Hell I'm the biggest troll here.

[Duke]

See... now lets all go eat some mincemeat pie and cheer on Liverpool! (ALdra, you bring the tea)

Duke

[Melissia]

I prefer pasta to pie. Very few people can actually do a crust that actually feels right in the mouth. Those people who can are awesome and I always try and make friends with them, but they're rare...

[Renegade]

I thought it was in most peoples interest not to feed trolls... I could of course be wrong in this.

[DarkLink]

I'd personally say that Melissia is like an old guy sitting on his front porch with a shotgun, just waiting for someone to step on his lawn so he can get some target practice...

...except for the old man part.

[Renegade]

I'd personally say that Melissia is like an old guy sitting on his front porch with a shotgun, just waiting for someone to step on his lawn so he can get some target practice...

...except for the old man part.

Really? You never know... Melissia could easily be some old guy, anyone ever met him/her?

[Melissia]

And you could be a withered old hag with a penis for a nose and five ears on each arm.

[Chumbalaya]

You can't pay for entertainment like this any more, good stuff.

Also, I am right and everyone else has butts for faces and is stupid.

It's the internet, we're a bunch of nerds, what do you expect really?

[therealjohnny5]

I consider it trolling and the main reason why I stopped posting here much and went back to previous forums. And yes, I really do think it is that bad here. Personally I wish the banhammer would start flying. If I wanted to watch a couple people argue about nothing on a constant basis I would go to my family reunion.

On behalf of the Trolls Under The Bridge Union Sec. 28115 i would formally like to apologize for our joking and poking fun at each other, please just remember to feed us. In all seriousness though it's usually meant in good natured fun and ribbing because we enjoy it and welcome it in return...just look at that ridiculous "fail to comment thread..." which reminds me, Did we ever discover the origin of the strawberlissa? Duke? Chumby? anyone?


But yeah, I have a decent amount of respect for Melissia, she makes some good points here and there, but it seems there is a mob that always railroads her into a petty verbal fight.

She started it...


A bit of ribbing is quite fun, as is play devils advocate, and I am guessing some on here know each other well enough to do so often.

That's what she said...


Also, denzark has a point in that the people getting ganged up on aren't vary innocent we all take it and dish it out. I can tell you that there are very cordial relationships between a lot of "us" in fact I would go as far as calling us friends who like to disagree.

Duke

Agreed...see how i did that this time...i'm learning...


ok matey let me fix it so you understand.. fluff isnt a rule in the rule book you have a nice day

see...now you're doing it...rib poker....


Because they feel the desire to scratch my urge to debate.

As for me, innocent? Hell I'm the biggest troll here.

Do you have you're union card? let me see that....Nope sorry, your dues are past due..four cupcakes now...


See... now lets all go eat some mincemeat pie and cheer on Liverpool! (ALdra, you bring the tea)

Duke

Pssst...Duke...i don't think Alder likes liverpool...sorry bud...


And you could be a withered old hag with a penis for a nose and five ears on each arm.

:D:D:D:D


You can't pay for entertainment like this any more, good stuff.

Also, I am right and everyone else has butts for faces and is stupid.

It's the internet, we're a bunch of nerds, what do you expect really?

You're so wise Chumby. You're like a miniature hairy little Buddha....

As to the OP finally i'm getting around to it, as to not hijack the thread, i have to say that there seem to be three groups, the "i don't care about fluffers," who throw all caution to the wind and typically in my experience are often powergamers too. The "Middle grounders" like myself, who love the fluff but will challenge somethings, like i will occasionally field LR's and Dreads with my RG army even though they aren't super fluffy bc i want to change my play style. and finally the "Uber Fluffinators" like our dear Melissa who knows more about the exact propulsion of the Bolter gun than the GW boys do. And Kudos to all of them for the roles they play in the hobby, we just all need to learn to get along a little better...maybe another glass of scotch can help that...Baxter? Baxter?

[Lerra]

How do people usually share their army fluff? I'm considering adding some fluff to my army lists, but I don't want to shove it down people's throats either. I was going to write up a full page (or maybe just a paragraph) to put on the back of the list.

I like armies that are unusual and have lots of cool conversion opportunities. It's hard to be unique without stretching the fluff, especially with armies like space marines, orks, etc. You can do some amazing Ork conversions, but at the end of the day all of the Ork armies tend to blend together, and the best conversions are often copied. So I end up with scratch-built Tzeentchian daemons, female space marines, and chaos tau because I don't want to show up to an event and see three other people with identical armies. If I'm going to pour a lot of time and money into an army, it better feel like it's mine.

[BuFFo]

I just get a bit iff'd by people who feel the need to ask strangers online if its okay to make a certain type of army, as if words on a forum have any power over these people...

If you want your army to have this and that fluff, you bought the models, you do with them as you wish.

[Just_Me]

How do people usually share their army fluff? I'm considering adding some fluff to my army lists, but I don't want to shove it down people's throats either. I was going to write up a full page (or maybe just a paragraph) to put on the back of the list.

That's great! I wish more people did that, in my opinion it adds a lot of depth and richness to the whole army building experience. There is no "official" place for army fluff that I know of, but I have used the" Background" sub-forum in the past (if you are by any chance interested, my Guard fluff is here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3065), and my Marine fluff is here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3036)). I look forward to reading your background material.


I like armies that are unusual and have lots of cool conversion opportunities. It's hard to be unique without stretching the fluff, especially with armies like space marines, orks, etc. You can do some amazing Ork conversions, but at the end of the day all of the Ork armies tend to blend together, and the best conversions are often copied. So I end up with scratch-built Tzeentchian daemons, female space marines, and chaos tau because I don't want to show up to an event and see three other people with identical armies. If I'm going to pour a lot of time and money into an army, it better feel like it's mine.

Interesting, I have always preferred a more subtle touch. Rather than reinventing everything from the ground up, I like the challenge of delicately bending the army fluff, feel, and appearance so that it remains true to the source material while still becoming distinctly "mine." You would be surprised at what an effect a delicate touch of greenstuff here and a bits swap there, or even a bit of carefully applied paint can do for the whole army. as a case in point, right now I have an old Cadian Officer (the guy with the monocle and mohawk-type-thingy, seriously, he should have had the regimental Commissar summarily execute his barber) as my Guard commander, but I made some slight changes to his hair, gave him a beard, bulked up his pistol holster, and viola! a unique model that I really love and is like nothing else I have ever seen on the tabletop.

[Lerra]

I just get a bit iff'd by people who feel the need to ask strangers online if its okay to make a certain type of army, as if words on a forum have any power over these people...

The BoLS forum is a fairly representative sample of the 40k population, and it's important to know how people will react to an army considering things like comp scores and painting scores where you are penalized if your army is too unfluffy. So unfortunately, it does matter what other people think. I won $30 today at a tournament but was only a few points shy of making $90.


I have always preferred a more subtle touch.

I love seeing armies like yours that are done with class and great attention to detail. I've seen some of the models you've done and they look great :D . . . but subtlety is not really my style. I play primarily Tzeentch and I'm biased towards big conversions and crazy stuff, which (thankfully) fits pretty well with my chosen Chaos God ;) I like my conversions to follow the 2-foot rule (the models are optimized to look cool from 2 feet away because, while you are playing the game, you are usually at least 2 feet away from the models).

[Morgrim]

I think a lot has to do with quality. Make good justifications and I'll swallow far more than if someone just claims for the sake of claiming. For example, female space marines seem to be a touchy topic (haven't actually read the thread here, and all the sigs are making my want to put on my pirate hat and praise Him for touching this board with his noodly appendage).

I dislike the idea of female space marines. Not for their own sake, there is nothing stopping them genetically or biologically (well, to the extent that 'if this could be done to a human in the first place, sex wouldn't matter' when they start prepubescent) but because the culture that they are embedded into within the Imperium acts strongly against it. So people randomly tossing in female space marines for no apparently reason is a bit jarring. However, then we go and look at the Fighting Tigers of Veda. There is excellent fluff giving the reasons and justifications, painting and modelling to suit, and a coherent feel. I have no issues with them for that reason.

I think the reason people get so vehement is because there is little so demoralising as putting out your lovingly crafted army and having your opponent say 'You're not allowed to do that, it's wrong.' And on the flip side, it can be infuriating when someone blasts a hole through the center of established lore to do something seemingly unrelated. Both sides can go overboard; any homebrew chapter that singlehandedly turns back a complete crusade and then casually swats a waaargh without casualties will never earn respect.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Fellend]

I like the fact that people are trying to play the "mature card" over a game which is basically pimped up plastic toy soldiers that we play with far beyond the recommended age.

Maturity is overrated anyhow.

[Warfare]

I like the fact that people are trying to play the "mature card" over a game which is basically pimped up plastic toy soldiers that we play with far beyond the recommended age.

Maturity is overrated anyhow.

Indeed. In fact caring so much about 'maturity' is in itself...slightly immature.

[Sangre]

ok matey let me fix it so you understand.. fluff isnt a rule in the rule book you have a nice day

Haha. You're funny.


Because they feel the desire to scratch my urge to debate.

As for me, innocent? Hell I'm the biggest troll here.

I have this on record now.

[Commissar Lewis]

I guess all the points made in here are valid, I'm just saying it's rather interesting to see a topic explode into a Gork v. Mork debate, i.e. a verbal brawl.

But it is true, there are few things more entertaining than reading an e-arguement.

[therealjohnny5]

I guess all the points made in here are valid, I'm just saying it's rather interesting to see a topic explode into a Gork v. Mork debate, i.e. a verbal brawl.

But it is true, there are few things more entertaining than reading an e-arguement.

like an e-fistfight!

[Renegade]

And you could be a withered old hag with a penis for a nose and five ears on each arm.

And from over the web, you'd never know it. :p

Still, that would be pretty cool, I am guessing mixed blessings from Slaanesh and Tzeench.

[Just_Me]

I love seeing armies like yours that are done with class and great attention to detail. I've seen some of the models you've done and they look great :D . . .

Thanks :D.


but subtlety is not really my style. I play primarily Tzeentch and I'm biased towards big conversions and crazy stuff, which (thankfully) fits pretty well with my chosen Chaos God ;) I like my conversions to follow the 2-foot rule (the models are optimized to look cool from 2 feet away because, while you are playing the game, you are usually at least 2 feet away from the models).

To each their own :D.


I dislike the idea of female space marines. Not for their own sake, there is nothing stopping them genetically or biologically (well, to the extent that 'if this could be done to a human in the first place, sex wouldn't matter' when they start prepubescent) but because the culture that they are embedded into within the Imperium acts strongly against it. So people randomly tossing in female space marines for no apparently reason is a bit jarring. However, then we go and look at the Fighting Tigers of Veda. There is excellent fluff giving the reasons and justifications, painting and modelling to suit, and a coherent feel. I have no issues with them for that reason.

Not that I want this to degenerate into a clone of that thread, but you hit the nail on the head and that is exactly what I was trying to say over there. I don't care for the idea of FSMs, but I am willing to accept that they are possible and can be cool if they have good fluff, unfortunately that is hard to make fluff that good...


I think the reason people get so vehement is because there is little so demoralising as putting out your lovingly crafted army and having your opponent say 'You're not allowed to do that, it's wrong.' And on the flip side, it can be infuriating when someone blasts a hole through the center of established lore to do something seemingly unrelated. Both sides can go overboard; any homebrew chapter that singlehandedly turns back a complete crusade and then casually swats a waaargh without casualties will never earn respect.

Again, I agree, If someone buys their models and goes to the trouble of converting them, then I will be happy to face them. I don't feel that I have any right to dictate to my opponent what they can or cannot play.


A couple of years ago, when I left a unit I had been attached to for a couple of years, I was presented with a engraved pewter tankard and two cans of diet coke glued together and disguised as a champaign bottle!

You, me, and my dad as well, what can I say, it tastes great. It is also happens to be the second most recognized word world wide, after "OK."


How boring would this site be if we all agreed with each other all the time?

Whole-heartedly agreed, if everyone always agreed I wouldn't come here.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I got shanked by a FSM player at subway today. That'll teach me to hang my AFSM flag in greater Atlanta.

[Commissar Lewis]

Hey now, y'all, no FSM/AFSM in here. By order of the Commissariat.

*racks bolt pistol slide*

[Renegade]

Hey now, y'all, no FSM/AFSM in here. By order of the Commissariat.

*racks bolt pistol slide*

Apparently, I'm a withered old hag with a penis for a nose and five ears on each arm. So just you put that gun away sonny, or I'll sneeze at ya!

*Smiles that "sweet granny" grin*

[BuFFo]

The BoLS forum is a fairly representative sample of the 40k population, and it's important to know how people will react to an army considering things like comp scores and painting scores where you are penalized if your army is too unfluffy. So unfortunately, it does matter what other people think. I won $30 today at a tournament but was only a few points shy of making $90.

Ugh, no it isn't a fair representation of anything.

If you want to go by GW, and the statistics of my local store, people who come online and read regularly on the big few forums is around 5% of all people who purchase 40k products.

Its pathetic that someone feels the need to come online and ask "Can I glue a marine bolter on an Ork and call it a Flash Gitz?". At the very least, the VERY LEAST, ask that question to your local players!


I like the fact that people are trying to play the "mature card" over a game which is basically pimped up plastic toy soldiers that we play with far beyond the recommended age.

Maturity is overrated anyhow.

Exactly! :)

[david5th]

It's simple really. Everyone has their own interpretation of the fluff/universe/fiction. You can either accept this and listen and enjoy this aspect of the hobby oy

YOU CAN IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE ONLY YOU ARE RIGHT!!!.

It's your choice really.

This is my first post so i am expectling Flak.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[david5th]

Thankyou.

[Duke]

Flak flak flak! (just kidding). As I have said before, you are all free to make up your own fluff but if you go against cannon you should be ready to support your ideas.

For example: I have a Luna wolves army lead by l
loken. I postulate that he actually survived the last battle and is running around hated by both sides. A lot of people like my fluff, but if I said that he killed Horus and took up horus' mantel to then kill the emperor people would get a little peeved. But it doesn't mean I can't play the army, I just have to accept the flack I'll get.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Duke]

to heck with with being scared of Mack the knife... Pro-FSM people with hair picks are the ture terror on this world!

[BuFFo]

It's simple really. Everyone has their own interpretation of the fluff/universe/fiction. You can either accept this and listen and enjoy this aspect of the hobby oy

YOU CAN IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE ONLY YOU ARE RIGHT!!!.

It's your choice really.

This is my first post so i am expectling Flak.

An awesome first post!

Welcome!

[Commissar Lewis]

All good points, I'll admit.

Now, I'm not really gonna be posting in this thread for the remainder of the week, at least not coherantly. I am getting 26 teeth removed tomorrow to make room for some new partial plate dentures, yadda yadda yadda, gonna be on pain meds.

However, look for some interesting posts from me.

But, in conclusion, my main point here was that people oft get worked up over trivial things. Then again, though, arguing is good fun.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

It's simple really. Everyone has their own interpretation of the fluff/universe/fiction. You can either accept this and listen and enjoy this aspect of the hobby oy

YOU CAN IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE ONLY YOU ARE RIGHT!!!.

It's your choice really.

This is my first post so i am expectling Flak.

Flak ? I completely agree with you and im glad others feel this way too. Welcome to the forum :)

[Stormlord Aeirling]

there is basic fluff, then there is what is left up to the individual player. Some people think that the later part isn't actually up to the individual player, and claim they're own opinions are the one and only truth.

this is how the female space marine argument started. Some people claimed that there could never be any female space marines ever ever ever, even though it was really not in they're jurisdiction to say so.

[Sangre]

there is basic fluff, then there is what is left up to the individual player. Some people think that the later part isn't actually up to the individual player, and claim they're own opinions are the one and only truth.

this is how the female space marine argument started. Some people claimed that there could never be any female space marines ever ever ever, even though it was really not in they're jurisdiction to say so.

You say that, but there are mitigating circumstances, lit. you're a silly poopy head.

[Melissia]

I stand corrected, I'm the second biggest troll on this forum.

[Sangre]

I stand corrected, I'm the second biggest troll on this forum.

You say that, but there are mitigating circumstances, lit. he's a silly poopy head.

[rkiviman]

It just more and more fun watching how this forum unfolds. Almost as much fun as the one about female space marines!! ;)

[BuFFo]

It just more and more fun watching how this forum unfolds. Almost as much fun as the one about female space marines!! ;)

Well, that's because this forum has no rules, and the trolls/post count whores that should have been banned a long time ago haven't been. :D

I guess it does provide some hilarity I admit, but its annoying when 30 posts out of 35 aren't even on topic and venture into idiocy. :mad:

Cutting them off at the pass, these same trolls will probably say the same thing of me or this post. You'll then see who they are!

[Marshal2Crusaders]

there is basic fluff, then there is what is left up to the individual player. Some people think that the later part isn't actually up to the individual player, and claim they're own opinions are the one and only truth.

this is how the female space marine argument started. Some people claimed that there could never be any female space marines ever ever ever, even though it was really not in they're jurisdiction to say so.

That Is where you are mistaken. I am the Chosen Guardian of Games Workshop fluff, gifted the Grand Scepter of Lore Master by the Maiden of the Mist in Jervis' Basement. It is my eternal duty to guard against fluff benders,, female space marine players, and that guy with the neckbeard who insists on talking to everyone.

[BuFFo]

.... female space marine players, and that guy with the neckbeard who insists on talking to everyone....

Aren't they the same person?

Fluff is as fluff does....

[Just_Me]

...and that guy with the neckbeard who insists on talking to everyone.

Good, I hate that guy, he is an offense to all of us who groom ourselves (let alone bathe regularly). Just brandish his natural enemy at him; a razor! Seriously, it's like crosses and garlic to vampires, or holy water to demons.

The power of hygiene compels you!
The power of hygiene compels you!

But seriously, getting worked up about fluff just goes with the territory, one's own favorite bits will always be near and dear to one's heart, and woe betide any who question it!

All in all I lean more towards the fluff guardian side; my logic being GW has given us a rich and diverse universe with abundant room for innovation, why do we have to immediately try to change those parts they have given us when there is so much left up to us already? Thinking "outside the box" is great, but doing so just because you can isn't necessarily a good thing, and utterly smashing the "box" the bits so that you can start over is really uncalled for, especially when the proverbial "box" is approximately the size of the Superdome. Sometimes it is a greater demonstration of skill and creativity to be innovative "inside the box" or by bending the rules just slightly.

That being said, if someone pours their heart and soul into their fluff, or conversion, or whatever, then who am I to tell them what they can and can't do? I may not be willing to accept, say, female space marines in my vision of the grimdark, but I have no right to tell someone else they can't. And if they pull it off well then I can admire their creativity even if I don't share their vision.

The bottom line though, is if you are posting your fluff on these (or other) forums, then it presupposes that you want others' opinions on it, that is what the venue is all about. Just like if I see you at a ski slope with a pair of skis I will assume you are going skiing, so if you do post your fluff opinions on a discussion forum I will assume you want to discuss your fluff, and by extension hear other opinions.

[Melissia]

and the trolls/post count whores that should have been banned a long time ago haven't been.
I'm reminded of an old addage about pots and kettles :D

[Denzark]

my logic being GW has given us a rich and diverse universe with abundant room for innovation, why do we have to immediately try to change those parts they have given us when there is so much left up to us already? Thinking "outside the box" is great, but doing so just because you can isn't necessarily a good thing, and utterly smashing the "box" the bits so that you can start over is really uncalled for, especially when the proverbial "box" is approximately the size of the Superdome. Sometimes it is a greater demonstration of skill and creativity to be innovative "inside the box" or by bending the rules just slightly

1. This is very clever and sums up some unspoken thoughts of mine whilst I have been too busy generally frothing at the bit. This is probably the most succinct answer to 'why the vehemence?'.' My respect Sir.

2. Stormlord Aeirling. I found this name with some fan fic/battle report about how some eldar beat the 'fail marines'. Naming ones self after your Army General or even vice versa brings to mind megalomania on a Bond villain-esque scale. Also there is another 'aeirling' who made about 8 posts. Is this about never being alone with Schizophrenia? All in all, the only thing I can say is that this, in a reasonable decent world, ought to ban him from being able to use the word 'jurisdiction'.

3. Funnily enough people, posting an opinion in opposition to M. Le Buffo does not automatically make you a troll or post whore.

[BuFFo]

3. Funnily enough people, posting an opinion in opposition to M. Le Buffo does not automatically make you a troll or post whore.

I never said that. Keep me in context next time, thank you :p


I'm reminded of an old addage about pots and kettles :D

If I valued anything you said, I would care. Your position on fluff is so out of whack, engaging in any discussion with you about fluff is a waste of calories.

[Melissia]

I'm reminded of an old addage about pots and kettles :D


If I valued anything you said, I would care. Your position on fluff is so out of whack, engaging in any discussion with you about fluff is a waste of calories.


I'm reminded of an old addage about pots and kettles :D

Fun times! I don't even have to add anything to make my response.

[zealot]

Okay last.

Lock please. :)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[sketchesofpayne]

I think it stems from the idea that if the wrong information gets repeated enough times people forget what the correct information is. This can lead the the wrong information being retroactively applied and erasing previous fluff.

[Melissia]

A big example of this is the idea that Bolters have a huge amount of recoil. There's very little reference to them having said recoil in the fluff, though, from my memory of that argument.

[Scoota]

For those of you familiar with the movie, there is a brilliant scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where a group of people argue about the meaning of a shoe that has fallen off Brian's feet as he is fleeing them.
I wonder if the people who work in the design area of GW laugh at our arguments as much as I laughed at this scene (and movie in general).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uywIYQEHZLs

As a slight segway, let me wax philosophical and ask the question - at what point does creative ownership end?
As somebody who writes, I have always been amazed at how much Fanfiction gets created and posted on the internet, ranging from exploring portions of a story that weren't told in the original novel to dirty XXX Twilight shenanigans between the main characters.

Where is the line drawn between the true word, creative license, plagiarism and *******isation of the original idea?

Or do we put our own meaning on the creative belches of others and end up with... A Shoe!!!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[BuFFo]

I think it stems from the idea that if the wrong information gets repeated enough times people forget what the correct information is. This can lead the the wrong information being retroactively applied and erasing previous fluff.

Thats the thing about 40k.

It is a hobby which canon gets changed with each new codex, each new edition.

40k is a game designed where players play in the PAST, not the present or the future. Therefore, the past gets changed constantly to suit the needs of the gamer.

What is true/canon about this and that changes over the years.

40k is a game where the hobbyist is in control. If you want to create your own chapter, story, planet, hostory, whatever, GW wants you to do so!

[Melissia]

I certainly don't play in the past :P. The Horus Heresy is way too overdone for one. My characters typically participate in the "present" of the canon, that is to say, M.41, creating their own story in their own minor little part of the galaxy to complement what is going on as described in the latest codex or brb.

[Subject Keyword]

The "rules" of the real world are too complicated for my fantasies to also be full of laws.

Unifying all of the fluff of 40K is kind of like trying to reconcile all of the books of the Bible...
It's just not worth the time expenditure, folks.

People get worked up about the fluff because they have no life.

I don't have time to get snitty about the fluff because I am too busy HAVING SEX WITH GIRLS.


And I agree entirely with BuFFo's Last post.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The "rules" of the real world are too complicated for my fantasies to also be full of laws.

Unifying all of the fluff of 40K is kind of like trying to reconcile all of the books of the Bible...
It's just not worth the time expenditure, folks.

People get worked up about the fluff because they have no life.

I don't have time to get snitty about the fluff because I am too busy HAVING SEX WITH GIRLS.


And I agree entirely with BuFFo's Last post.

Because they are crying or requiring payment it doesn't count.

[Melissia]

Oooh, burn. An extra five points for you, M2C.

[Just_Me]

Because they are crying or requiring payment it doesn't count.

Not to fan the flames, but well played sir!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Commissar Lewis]

Well,my first vicoden-inspired post (I have a prescription, people) is this.

I guess people will argue whatever point they feel strongly about. Hell I can't tell em they're wrong. If they get up in my face about, to quote The Dude from The Big Lebowski.

" Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man."

Honestly, ain't gonna bother me if a fellow hobbyist is raging at me.

[Scoota]

" Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man."

Brilliant quote! And ideal for your current condition.

To follow it up with another quote:
"Opinions are like ***-holes. Everybody has one, and nobody likes it when somebody shoves them in their face."

Dirty Harry.

[Sangre]

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one, but only mine is right.

[Jwolf]

"Yes, in spite of the fact that I've clearly stopped listening, you are still talking."

[Duke]

Though I would like to say the individual gamers opinion shouldn't matter to the rest of the group I have noticed all too often gaming groups have a "High Priest of Fluff," as well as "Lord of RAW," Generally the group will deffer to these people whne considering any background/ rules in their individual games. A lot of times these individuals dictate what can and cannot be played, simply becuase of their posistion in the group.

Duke

[Subject Keyword]

Because they are crying or requiring payment it doesn't count.

Hmm...
That's funny. Your mom didn't ask for payment...
She did cry a bit though. Mostly tears of happiness.
Apparently your dad just isn't up to snuff...
Though he seems to enjoy a nice romp under the sheets as well.
He broke his record!

3 minutes.

:D

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Hmm...
That's funny. Your mom didn't ask for payment...
She did cry a bit though. Mostly tears of happiness.
Apparently your dad just isn't up to snuff...
Though he seems to enjoy a nice romp under the sheets as well.
He broke his record!

3 minutes.

:D


Touché

[Commissar Lewis]

Hmm...
That's funny. Your mom didn't ask for payment...
She did cry a bit though. Mostly tears of happiness.
Apparently your dad just isn't up to snuff...
Though he seems to enjoy a nice romp under the sheets as well.
He broke his record!

3 minutes.

:D

Oh snap, son!

[Stormlord Aeirling]

2. Stormlord Aeirling. I found this name with some fan fic/battle report about how some eldar beat the 'fail marines'. Naming ones self after your Army General or even vice versa brings to mind megalomania on a Bond villain-esque scale. Also there is another 'aeirling' who made about 8 posts. Is this about never being alone with Schizophrenia? All in all, the only thing I can say is that this, in a reasonable decent world, ought to ban him from being able to use the word 'jurisdiction'.

*Sigh* Looks like you're at it again.

Yes, my army general is named Aeirling, yes, thats my username. the old Account which you found is my old account which i abandoned because i couldn't remember the password and the password recovery was not working.

I am not sure what you're trying to say, but i'm pretty sure it's offensive.

also, My opponent named his chapter "Failmarines" as a joke and told me to refer to them as such. And if you read the report properly, i lost that game. (Hence my opponent's irony)

EDIT: after reflection, i think i'll report that post as a flame

[Marshal2Crusaders]

*Sigh* Looks like you're at it again.

Yes, my army general is named Aeirling, yes, thats my username. the old Account which you found is my old account which i abandoned because i couldn't remember the password and the password recovery was not working.

I am not sure what you're trying to say, but i'm pretty sure it's offensive.

also, My opponent named his chapter "Failmarines" as a joke and told me to refer to them as such. And if you read the report properly, i lost that game. (Hence my opponent's irony)

EDIT: after reflection, i think i'll report that post as a flame

How to make friends and influence people by Stormlord Aierling.

[Bigred]

Everybody play nice.

This thread is getting dangerously close to the line now. More content, less flaming...

[Lerra]

Eh, just ignore them stormlord. Someone pee'd in their cheerios and/or they get a rise out of aggravating you.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

How to make friends and influence people by Stormlord Aierling.

I'm not the one flaming people all the time.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

Thank you, lerra. Good to see someone agrees with me

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Duke]

Agreed. But this is the nature of people and you tend to get this in any group, not just wargamers.

And that stinks about gaming groups. No matter how much you may want to do a weird-fluff army if there is a guy like that you have a really hard time... This is different from Fluff-hardcore people on the net because they don't actually control how the actual games go down.

Duke

[Denzark]

There is a difference between wierd fluff behind an army and fluff that contradicts the canon. Again it comes back to what Just_Me said:

Originally Posted by Just_Me
my logic being GW has given us a rich and diverse universe with abundant room for innovation, why do we have to immediately try to change those parts they have given us when there is so much left up to us already? Thinking "outside the box" is great, but doing so just because you can isn't necessarily a good thing, and utterly smashing the "box" the bits so that you can start over is really uncalled for, especially when the proverbial "box" is approximately the size of the Superdome. Sometimes it is a greater demonstration of skill and creativity to be innovative "inside the box" or by bending the rules just slightly

I would sympathise your 'Fluff high priest' guarding the Superdome. But would say if you ain't contradicting canon (ie wierd not diametrically opposed) and he gets a bee in his bonnet tell him to Jog On.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Denzark]

Bless me Father, for I have sinned! It has been 2 days since my last confession.
What is you sin my son/daughter.
I have been thinking of ways to justify a female space marine chapter, and yesterday I had impure thoughts about Melissia in power Armour!
Mmmmm this is a serious transgression, say 200 hail The Emperor's and go to bed without any pudding!

then....

Thank you Father, I feel much better to get it off my chest.
No problem my son, now off you go in peace...
- Penitent leaves -
'Father' takes out aquila shaped earing and presses the right eye... A crackle of vox is heard ...
No, its worse than suspected.
No, no more mention of Squats - we're onto female space marines.
What! I thought you'd use a mind wipe, I mean, Exterminatus? Is it really necessary?

No no, of course, you're right, he's clearly a deviant heretic of the worst kind, and beyond redemption, I'll try to make the shuttle rendezvous, you make sure those navy pansies stop anyone getting off planet, we can't have it spreading this time...

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Thank you, lerra. Good to see someone agrees with me


Eh, just ignore them stormlord. Someone pee'd in their cheerios and/or they get a rise out of aggravating you.


Get a room :-P

[Just_Me]

Bless me Father, for I have sinned! It has been 2 days since my last confession.
What is you sin my son/daughter.
I have been thinking of ways to justify a female space marine chapter, and yesterday I had impure thoughts about Melissia in power Armour!
Mmmmm this is a serious transgression, say 200 hail The Emperor's and go to bed without any pudding!

then....

Thank you Father, I feel much better to get it off my chest.
No problem my son, now off you go in peace...
- Penitent leaves -
'Father' takes out aquila shaped earing and presses the right eye... A crackle of vox is heard ...
No, its worse than suspected.
No, no more mention of Squats - we're onto female space marines.
What! I thought you'd use a mind wipe, I mean, Exterminatus? Is it really necessary?

No no, of course, you're right, he's clearly a deviant heretic of the worst kind, and beyond redemption, I'll try to make the shuttle rendezvous, you make sure those navy pansies stop anyone getting off planet, we can't have it spreading this time...

Moments later on the bridge of a Black Ship leading a Naval Exterminatus task force...

"Lord Inquisitor, all the preparations are in order. We have contacted our agent and we will rendezvous with his shuttle at 0930 and begin the virus bombardment immediately thereafter."

"Excellent Captain, carry on. Oh and Captain?"

"My Lord?"

"See to it that the bombardment begins at 0700."

"Yes my Lord, I will inform your agent of the chan-"

"No you will not, he has been in far too close a proximity to the source of this corruption, and as he himself says, it must not be allowed to spread..."


There is a difference between wierd fluff behind an army and fluff that contradicts the canon. Again it comes back to what Just_Me said:
...
I would sympathise your 'Fluff high priest' guarding the Superdome. But would say if you ain't contradicting canon (ie wierd not diametrically opposed) and he gets a bee in his bonnet tell him to Jog On.

I actually don't mind being the "High Priest of Fluff," and I'm pretty sure that if I had a regular gaming group I would be one. As far as I am concerned you have no obligation to do what such a person tells you. If you have a guy/gal in the community (be it local or online) who knows the lore, and you use him/her to get your questions answered that is fine, if you want to run your fluff by him/her to work out any kinks that is fine too. However, you are free to use this advice or not as you choose, and as you said, if he/she starts telling you flat out what you can or can't do then they are getting way too big for their britches.

By the same token of course, if you do ask for their opinion, then you should only do so if you are prepared to respect their input, you don't have to follow it, but respect it. If you have a zany idea that you are really devoted too, but you know it won't fly in the fluff then don't ask them for fluff advice. You can certainly tell them just to raise a smile, but be clear that you aren't actually looking for fluff help. If you solicit advice and then complain about it then you are just as bad as the overbearing High Priest of Fluff who tells you what to do.

[Morgrim]

I'm probably on route to becoming a Priestess of Fluff, certainly in particular areas. Just don't ask me about tau (kroot I'm fine with) or Sisters. That said, when I have a friend asking something weird I find it more fun to figure out what sort of wiggle room we have and tweak it to suit. "Erm, no, I really don't think you'd be 'rescuing' that thing from genestealers out of a hulk." "Then how do I get it?" "You're playing orks, the warboss saw it, liked it and grabbed it."

Sometimes my friends also think they need to do significantly overcomplicated things when 'grab it/shoot it' is a perfectly viable, fluffy, in character option.

[Madness]

Damn, I'm too noobish for challenging you guys for the title, I guess all those years spent studying medieval latin just so I could create niftier high gothic will go to waste then...

[Morgrim]

Or it will make you very very sought after by players, particularly Imperial players. :P

[Subject Keyword]

Touché

Well, you know I'm joking 'cause your dad's the King. Didn't he find you in a crater?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Well, you know I'm joking 'cause your dad's the King. Didn't he find you in a crater?

That was a crazy day.