The Doom of Malantai

[Mobious]

I don't know if this was mentioned or not because I do not feel like reading through 25 pages of this crap, but I have a question.

If this power affects units in transports, would that not break the system? Not that we cannot deal with taking the leadership test and wounds. But what happens when you suffer 25% casualties from this and fail you Ld test? How do you fall back?

Truthfully, everyone should just play restrictively until the FAQ comes out. There is no way to deal with some of the after-effects of causing wounds to embarked units. Nothing in the rules supports this, we wouldhave to make it all up as we go along. And I personally like playing with rules, and not without.

[Nabterayl]

If this power affects units in transports, would that not break the system? Not that we cannot deal with taking the leadership test and wounds. But what happens when you suffer 25% casualties from this and fail you Ld test? How do you fall back?
Yes, this was asked. There are ways to handle it, but of course it is not supported by the rules. The difficulty is that you cannot Disembark as part of a Fall Back move. Among the ways to handle this:
There is no good way; it breaks the system, and consequently Spirit Leech must not affected embarked units.
There is no good way; it breaks the system, but the weight of the evidence supports Spirit Leech affecting embarked units, so we simply say that Spirit Leech cannot make embarked units take a Morale test.
The lawyer's way: the unit takes its Morale test, but as it cannot Fall Back from within the transport (because it cannot Disembark as part of a Fall Back move), the unit is never Falling Back, and thus there are no consequences for failing the Morale test.
The common sense pro-Spirit Leech affecting embarked units way: the unit simply disembarks from the access point and then Falls Back as normal.
I think these are the best four contenders. There is little point in discussing their merits, though, because all such a discussion really reveals is where one already stands on the question of Spirit Leech affecting embarked units. You have skipped many pages of posts that consist of just such a discussion. I implore you not to open it again :p

[robertsjf]

Truthfully, everyone should just play restrictively until the FAQ comes out.

not a 'nid player, are we?

[Mobious]

No I am not, but has nothing to do with it. That is always my view on debatable rules whether or not it effects my particular army for better or worse. Unless it is tourney time!!

[Lord Azaghul]

So in conclusion, gw has once again released 'new' rules which violate and do not properly interact with the old ones - causing headaches, anguish and probably a few hurt feelings...

I just hope they don't release more crap like 'the doom' into 40k - that is the sort of unit that en mass has flat our ruined fantasy.

[Shavnir]

Yes, this was asked. There are ways to handle it, but of course it is not supported by the rules. The difficulty is that you cannot Disembark as part of a Fall Back move. Among the ways to handle this:
There is no good way; it breaks the system, and consequently Spirit Leech must not affected embarked units.
There is no good way; it breaks the system, but the weight of the evidence supports Spirit Leech affecting embarked units, so we simply say that Spirit Leech cannot make embarked units take a Morale test.
The lawyer's way: the unit takes its Morale test, but as it cannot Fall Back from within the transport (because it cannot Disembark as part of a Fall Back move), the unit is never Falling Back, and thus there are no consequences for failing the Morale test.
The common sense pro-Spirit Leech affecting embarked units way: the unit simply disembarks from the access point and then Falls Back as normal.
I think these are the best four contenders. There is little point in discussing their merits, though, because all such a discussion really reveals is where one already stands on the question of Spirit Leech affecting embarked units. You have skipped many pages of posts that consist of just such a discussion. I implore you not to open it again :p

I'd like to point out that the potential for a failed morale check while in a vehicle was already there, thanks to fire ports and plasma guns. So its not an issue solely limited to the Doom.

[rle68]

I'd like to point out that the potential for a failed morale check while in a vehicle was already there, thanks to fire ports and plasma guns. So its not an issue solely limited to the Doom.

How does a unit with fire ports and plasma guns affect unit morale? if the plasma gun blows up in his face he doesnt take a morale check anyway.. this comment loses me here... and after reading a majority of this i am in the camp of it cannot affect units in transports ding ding ding .. end of debate till a faq or errata says different

[BuFFo]

How does a unit with fire ports and plasma guns affect unit morale? if the plasma gun blows up in his face he doesnt take a morale check anyway.. this comment loses me here... and after reading a majority of this i am in the camp of it cannot affect units in transports ding ding ding .. end of debate till a faq or errata says different

If you have 5 models in a transport, and two die from Plasma, the unit has taken 25% casualties (which is checked at the end of both the Movement and Shooting Phases), and now suffers from a LD test to Fall Back.

This has existed since the start of 5th edition, and has never been addressed since it is so rare.

[Shavnir]

For those preparing for Adepticon, the latest INAT is out with Tyranid answers. Short answer on the doom is it works in vehicles but the occupants get 4+ cover. No checks from 25% casualties are needed if you're in a vehicle.

[predada22]

oh sure, your soul is being sucked out from you and you get a 4+ cover? well thats sure im going to stick behind a wall and save my life from the siphon draining my life out!, that sould work right?

[Shavnir]

oh sure, your soul is being sucked out from you and you get a 4+ cover? well thats sure im going to stick behind a wall and save my life from the siphon draining my life out!, that sould work right?

I never said it made sense, I just said that's what the INAT went with.

[predada22]

I never said it made sense, I just said that's what the INAT went with.

i wasnt against you, just wanna say something about it.
sorry if i offended you :)

[rle68]

If you have 5 models in a transport, and two die from Plasma, the unit has taken 25% casualties (which is checked at the end of both the Movement and Shooting Phases), and now suffers from a LD test to Fall Back.

This has existed since the start of 5th edition, and has never been addressed since it is so rare.

i see what you are saying i found it in the book took me awhile to find it, i was under the impression that self inflicted casualties did not cause morale checks maybe thats an assumption on my part.....

and secondly how does one fall back when on a transport? i still havent resolved that nonesense. that rule i can not find anywhere i dont think it exists thus my opinion is an embarked unit cannot be made to fall back

[Nabterayl]

i see what you are saying i found it in the book took me awhile to find it, i was under the impression that self inflicted casualties did not cause morale checks maybe thats an assumption on my part.....

and secondly how does one fall back when on a transport? i still havent resolved that nonesense. that rule i can not find anywhere i dont think it exists thus my opinion is an embarked unit cannot be made to fall back
Nobody knows, rle68. It isn't a Spirit Leech-specific issue, though. Just something that has been a question since the start of 5th that was never FAQed.

[BuFFo]

and secondly how does one fall back when on a transport?

Measure from an access point and move the unit out the distance rolled on a 2d6.

I have been doing this for a long time. It is quite easy to do.

Vehicles are not magical prisons.

[rle68]

Measure from an access point and move the unit out the distance rolled on a 2d6.

I have been doing this for a long time. It is quite easy to do.

Vehicles are not magical prisons.

I know they are not magical prisions :) not disputing you on that.. however, is there a rule anywhere in there that says a unit may/ must fall back while embarked in or on a transport??? methinks there is no such ruling and that is an assumption that that is how it should work, which i dont agree with but thats just my opinion not based on any facts other than past history ( units in transports are not affected by outside occurances except as defined by what affects the transports itself ) thats my thoughts based on rules as known unless im missing something and you have a page number for me to prove otherwise? not being a smart a$$ just asking

[Rapture]

I know they are not magical prisions :) not disputing you on that.. however, is there a rule anywhere in there that says a unit may/ must fall back while embarked in or on a transport??? methinks there is no such ruling and that is an assumption that that is how it should work, which i dont agree with but thats just my opinion not based on any facts other than past history ( units in transports are not affected by outside occurances except as defined by what affects the transports itself ) thats my thoughts based on rules as known unless im missing something and you have a page number for me to prove otherwise? not being a smart a$$ just asking

I have to agree with you. Units in transports are immune to almost everything else that I can think of so I don't see how this new thing can effect them without directly mentioning it.

[BuFFo]

[QUOTE=rle68;54219 however, is there a rule anywhere in there that says a unit may/ must fall back while embarked in or on a transport???[/QUOTE]

Yes.... The rule for Falling Back. When a unit falls back, measure 2d6 towards your long table edge. The rule doesn't care WHERE the unit is, only that it is Falling Back.

That is how I do it, and if you wish to do it differently, more power to you.

[TSINI]

Kloud, your logic is that a unit in a transport is a vehicle unit correct?

Does that mean tac marines in a rhino can't claim objectives? Because last I checked there was a specific rule about vehicles not being able to claim objectives.

Just wanted to jump in on this one, i've always played it that you HAD to disembark to hold an objectives. and as far as i know so does everyone else in my gaming group, and at all 4 of my local GW's. and at the 3 tourneys i've played in. Maybe its a southwest england thing.

Which is why this Spirit leech problem bypasses all of us, we treat a unit embarked in a transport as a vehicle unit. not scoring, and unaffected by infantry only rules. Thus is the benefit of a transport (protection) and the downside (not scoring)

[Nabterayl]

Just wanted to jump in on this one, i've always played it that you HAD to disembark to hold an objectives. and as far as i know so does everyone else in my gaming group, and at all 4 of my local GW's. and at the 3 tourneys i've played in. Maybe its a southwest england thing.

Which is why this Spirit leech problem bypasses all of us, we treat a unit embarked in a transport as a vehicle unit. not scoring, and unaffected by infantry only rules. Thus is the benefit of a transport (protection) and the downside (not scoring)
TSINI, just curious - is that a local house rule, or do you guys have an alternate reading of "Units of Troops embarked in a transport can control objectives (measure the distance to their vehicle's hull)" (p. 90)?

[Ferro]

Oh snap!

[TSINI]

ay ay ay, this is embarasing lol

I stand corrected by a basic rule. my bad.

http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/the_more_you_know2.jpg

[Mortifis]

Having read through the INAT document that attempts to address the issues, I'm fairly certain of the following statement that I'm about to make:

The people who wrote the INAT document have either not read the actual rules, or have little understanding of them.

There are examples of what they have written, that they claim is correct by RAW, that is clearly false and patently absurd.
===> Deathleaper's "What was that?" specifically states "down to a minimum of one"... whereas they claim it can make a unit immobile.
===> Spore Mines' "Orbital Deployment" happens before there are any enemy models on the table, so they can never "deep strike onto enemy models", because no enemy models exist for this to happen (except in the rare event two opposing Tyranid armies both have Orbital Deployment Spore Mine Clusters, which would follow the normal rules for Deep Strike, and enemy models would count as Impassable Terrain and therefore not be able to be placed there...)

Then there are examples that show their "interpretations" of rules contradict themselves several times over. The two following examples both work while the unit is "alive", but only one of them is given the green light by the INAT authors.
===> Hive Tyrant's "Hive Commander": While the Hive Tyrant is alive you add +1 to your reserves rolls. They claim this doesn't work from reserve itself, because "it doesn't state that it does".
===> Deathleaper's "Its after me!": Whilst Deathleaper is alive, that model's Leadership is reduced... says nothing differently to the Hive Commander rule, but works because "it happens at the start of the game"...

In conclusion - the INAT document proves nothing, except that it was mostly a waste of time reading. It answers questions that didn't need to be asked, refuses to answer questions that have been asked (Plasma overheats + Morale while embarked), and gives plainly incorrect answers in the guise of "clarifications" on the rare occasion they aren't actively changing the rules to suit themselves.

Good thing I don't live in America, where TO's might be tempted to borrow this rubbish.

[Bean]

I agree that the INAT FAQ often fails to do a good job at the task they've attempted, and (with the acknowledgement that I haven't read up on any of the issues you just mentioned) would agree that these seem to be fairly straight-forward failures on the part of the authors--and these aren't the only ones.

That said, I do think it's important to give them some credit for trying hard. GW doesn't even do that, and they also put out errata or FAQ documents that routinely show a clear failure to understand their own rules.

Further, it's important to note that, regardless of how much sense these decisions make, they're the rules that will be used at Adepticon. So, no matter how much you might dislike the INAT or its authors, if you're going to play at Adepticon, it's not a waste to read the document.

In fact, given how frequently they just flat-out change rules, you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you showed up to play at Adepticon without having read it.

[BuFFo]

The people who wrote the INAT document have either not read the actual rules, or have little understanding of them.

They are the same group of gamers, "The FAQ council" that writes the FAQs you play with off of the GW site.

Fun times :)

[darkninja962]

I was just going over the FAQ for the main rulebook and noticed this little rulling which has been there for quite some time now.

Q: Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked in a transport.
A: For simplicity's sake, the answer has to be a firm, 'No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported.

Looks like we've had an answer all along.

[Nabterayl]

Only sort of. Spirit Leech is, fluff-wise, a psychic power. However, if you look at tyranid codex, you will see that it is not a "psychic power" for gameplay purposes. In terms of game mechanics, it's just a regular old special rule.

[Mortifis]

Looks like we've had an answer all along.
Except that if you'd read any of the rules involved, you'd realise that Spirit Leech is not a psychic power.

I'm strongly of the opinion that if you think Spirit Leech can't affect embarked units, then your Psychic Hood doesn't work against my embarked Psykers, and my embarked Plasma weapons don't overheat.

[HsojVvad]

I was just going over the FAQ for the main rulebook and noticed this little rulling which has been there for quite some time now.

Q: Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked in a transport.
A: For simplicity's sake, the answer has to be a firm, 'No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported.

Looks like we've had an answer all along.

Try reading the thread, it already has been suggested. You just look foolish by saying we had an answer all along because it's not a phychic power.

Yes I know reading 28 pages is tough, but don't go on saying that you have the Final Almighty Answer when it was said before. At least say you didn't read all 28 pages and this is what you think.

Sorry I didn't mean to pick on you, but it just bugged me how by reading your post you solved 28 pages of debate.

[Renegade]

I have seen this debated all over the place.

The debate for it affecting troops in transport fails when it has to measure to the unit. Firing or whatever out of a vehicle is set down in the rules, but there is nothing that states the reverse. Therefore it is logical to assume that the measurement must be to the unit embarked which cannot be done, unless there is a rule that is written otherwise (eg: Marine firing a PG is still a marine firing a PG)

Hood effects an area of table space, the rules for them are fairly clear that they effect any psykers ability in that area. For a psyker to use its powers it has to effect what is out side the vehicle, which if in hood range is effected by the hood. The psyker is otherwise not effected.

As for the Doom Aura. It cannot effect a unit within a vehicle, as it cannot measure to the embarked unit, only the vehicle. It has no special rule that counters this, as it says effects only what is within 6" and it cannot hurt the vehicle.

The only things that I have seen used to counter this, ether have rules that happen pre-deployment or state that they can hurt units when deployed in this fashion.

However, if arguing that said unit can be effected this way. Then it can also be argued that the Mawlocs tunnel leaves reserves open wounds caused by a template template over the tunnel as it links the reserves to the table top.

[Duke]

I would be curious to know if you are playing Tyranids and your ruling on "Doom"

-Me: Non-Tyranids player, I don't think it affects the embarked unit.

Duke

[Lord Azaghul]

I would be curious to know if you are playing Tyranids and your ruling on "Doom"

-Me: Non-Tyranids player, I don't think it affects the embarked unit.

Duke

For the most part that seems to be the dividing line. People should probably just d6 for its affects each game.

[gcsmith]

renegade there are rules to measure to the unit. The rules specifcally state if any measurement is needed to the unit measure to the hull of the vehicle. Pg 66, it says TO and from the vehicle

[Shavnir]

I would be curious to know if you are playing Tyranids and your ruling on "Doom"

-Me: Non-Tyranids player, I don't think it affects the embarked unit.

Duke

-Shavnir : Tyranid / Ork player. Nay on Deffrollas on vehicles, the Mawloc needs errata to deep strike on top of enemy units and doom of malan'tai clearly affects embarked units.

One out of three ain't bad eh?

[Renegade]

renegade there are rules to measure to the unit. The rules specifcally state if any measurement is needed to the unit measure to the hull of the vehicle. Pg 66, it says TO and from the vehicle

And the part where it states things like Doom effecting said unit? ( I will find my rule book, and if that is just a snippet that leaves out any important info, like being for embarkation of/or disembarkation from a vehicle, count yourself as off my xmas card list.)

[Shavnir]

And the part where it states things like Doom effecting said unit? ( I will find my rule book, and if that is just a snippet that leaves out any important info, like being for embarkation of/or disembarkation from a vehicle, count yourself as off my xmas card list.)

Nope its not being taken out of context. I'm at work so I don't have the exact quote but it basically goes something along the lines of "Except for the unit's shooting when you need to measure range to a unit embarked in a vehicle use the hull of the vehicle". This is a case where you need to measure range to the unit (note, not to a model!). This is the same rule that would allow for psychic hoods to work from inside transports (although as I realized recently, I'm not even sure if that should work. Do psychic hoods measure range from the hood bearer itself or from the unit the hood bearer is in?)

[HsojVvad]

Has anyone read any of the threads here? Come on the new people to the debate are rehashing old agruments that have been debated very clearly by a few people here.

Go back to page one and start reading. Right now, the new people are looking foolish since what they are saying right now, have already been debated and most times have been proven wrong.

[robertsjf]

I would be curious to know if you are playing Tyranids and your ruling on "Doom"

-Me: Non-Tyranids player, I don't think it affects the embarked unit.

Duke

Our local nid player voluntarily offered ot ignore units in transports, if by voluntarily you mean after the local mechanised SM player laid a crowbar on the table and the mech IG player put on a pair of brass knuckles....

[Mobious]

Wait people actually use the INAT FAQ? I thought it was just some sort of comic relief. Haha

Come on seriously? Spotting tests for Hive Guard? My favorite is when they pull a rule out their *** and state so--rules change. Good intentions, but people look up to you, you should not create bull**** rules judgments. Isn't their GT supposed to be home to the strongest competition?

Oh and GW does not use yakkface anymore so stop saying that.

[Mortifis]

You cannot compare the Mawloc to this. They are in no way similar. The Mawloc is removed from the table (the unit is removed from the table, as well as the model) and placed into reserve. By definition, if it is in Reserve, it isn't on the table.


Units in transports is a different matter entirely. The embarked unit is inside the transport.

Now again, let us go back to the rules governing transports:

"If players need to measure a range involving the unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull"

Now, if somehow you still fail to grasp the implications of this, I'll break it down into smaller chunks.

"If players need to" This is for BOTH players, not just for the owning player.

"measure a range". Fairly simple, yes? We're measuring a range. 6" from the Doom of Malan'Tai.

"involving the unit". Also fairly simple. The embarked unit is non-vehicle, so is involved.

"(except for its shooting)". This isn't the embarked unit shooting. Moving on.

"this range is measured" This is the important part, telling us HOW to measure...

"to and from the vehicle's hull".

We can measure TO, and we can measure FROM, the transport vehicle's hull to determine if the transported unit is within range. If the transport is within range, the embarked unit is within range.

The vehicle itself not being affected is irrelevant, as we have already proven that embarked units don't magically "become one" with their transport.


Robertsjf: I certainly hope you reported threats of violence against persons to the police. Bodily assault is a criminal offence in any country on the planet.

[Renegade]

And it still has to affect the unit through the vehilce. Not happening, and nothing in the rules allows that to happen. A flamer does not target, its a template, but it cannot effect a transported unit. To many holes in this argument to make it work, unless GW state otherwise. Till then, dont expect anyone to just allow it.

There are no rules that state the Mawlocs hole works one way, and it inaffect contects the reserves to the table, so what happens to the hole can technically happen to the reserves. Same rules lawering your using.

[Bean]

Renegade:

The rules allow Spirit Leech to affect every enemy unit within 6" of the Doom. The rules tell you that embarked enemy units can be within 6" of the Doom.

Thus, the rules do in fact allow you, quite specifically, to affect embarked enemy units with the Doom.

Nothing about them being in a vehicle changes that. Nothing in the rules suggests that things need a special, specific exception to affect things "through" a vehicle.

Everything in the relevant rules supports this conclusion. Not one thing anywhere contradicts it. There are no holes in the argument at all. You have yet to point out even one single hole.

You've offered no actual rules, no argumentation, and no logic which even comes close to supporting your position. Give it up. All you're doing, now, is making yourself look stubborn and irrational.

[Ferro]

And it still has to affect the unit through the vehicle. Not happening, and nothing in the rules allows that to happen. A flamer does not target, its a template, but it cannot effect a transported unit. Too many holes in this argument to make it work, unless GW states otherwise. Till then, don't expect anyone to just allow it.... Same rules lawyering your using.

There are no holes in the argument, Renegade. You use 'rules lawyering' as if it's derogitory, but at least rules lawyering is based on the Rules. ...at least there's some foundation for a rules lawyer to stand on. Your example is irrational and incorrect: A template does have a target unit; a template attack is a shooting attack, and no one (excepting a 1% minority opinion) on the entire internet thinks that shooting attacks can hurt embarked units.

This is an illogical argument: Embarked units cannot be shot, therefore embarked units cannot be forced to take a Ld test. The hole in this is big enough to throw my monitor through. :)


nothing in the rules allows that to happen The thing is, it is allowed. Shadow in the Warp 'gets through' the vehicle and modifies the way a psychic test is taken. There are examples from almost every codex of Leadership shenanigans effecting embarked units. Read the thread, it's all in here.

The Doom forces a Leadership test. This is fully within the rules, and follows tons of existing precident.

[Mobious]

Fact of the matter is, as much as I don't like to admit it, the rules as written allow an embarked unit to get hurt by DoM. But this is the first time this has been able to take place without saying so explicitly. The Parasite ability specifically states it can hurt units in transports. Although there is room for the argument that by the wording it is implied that it would hurt an embarked unit anyway, the fact is that it told you how to handle it. DoM does nto give you that.

Now you can choose to allow it to damage embarked units, but we all know that its a little scummy. I am all for competitive play, in fact I endorse it (Y.T.T.H), but I would not be able to do this to my opponent until an FAQ comes out. The fact that I am not a Nid player means **** so do not even mention it. Because I could have been using Corbulo's exsanguinator to ignore failed cover save on my Rhinos, Baals, and Furiosos. But I choose not to because that is just overpowered and against how the ability should be used.

So until an FAQ comes out, I suggest everyone do the right thing and stop the BS. Don't you just feel like a dirty pedifile when you decimate 20 guardsmen in 4 different transports? Lol It is funny though.

[Renegade]

There are no holes in the argument, Renegade. You use 'rules lawyering' as if it's derogitory, but at least rules lawyering is based on the Rules. ...at least there's some foundation for a rules lawyer to stand on. Your example is irrational and incorrect: A template does have a target unit; a template attack is a shooting attack, and no one (excepting a 1% minority opinion) on the entire internet thinks that shooting attacks can hurt embarked units.

This is an illogical argument: Embarked units cannot be shot, therefore embarked units cannot be forced to take a Ld test. The hole in this is big enough to throw my monitor through. :)

The thing is, it is allowed. Shadow in the Warp 'gets through' the vehicle and modifies the way a psychic test is taken. There are examples from almost every codex of Leadership shenanigans effecting embarked units. Read the thread, it's all in here.

The Doom forces a Leadership test. This is fully within the rules, and follows tons of existing precident.

If everyone was as petty with the rules, as those looking for the loop hole that allows the Doom to effect units in transports, the game would be degenerate into being like some card games. It does not state that it effects units in transports. Psy Hood effects all psykers trying to do something, as does Shadow of the Warp, thats it. What you are wanting is totally different to that.

There is nothing that forces a Psyker to use its powers, therefore no forced test. I have read "some" of the circle the argument has taken, and a lot of it is throwing out rules and other exceptions from rules out of context.

US power gamers maybe getting it there own way there, but I am yet to find it posted on any UK specific forum that they would allow this, at least not without a dice off if both agreed.

[Bean]

If everyone was as petty with the rules, as those looking for the loop hole that allows the Doom to effect units in transports, the game would be degenerate into being like some card games. It does not state that it effects units in transports.

It does state that it affects enemy units which are within 6". Enemy units in transports which are within 6" are within 6".

So, effectively, it does say that it affects enemy units in transports--as long as those transports are within 6". No loop holes required.

If everyone was as bad at reading rules as the people who irrationally cling to the belief that being in a transport, somehow, protects units from the effects of Spirit Leech, the game would never be played by the rules at all. It would be nothing but Calvin Ball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_ball#Calvinball) with toy soldiers.

[Force21]

It does state that it affects enemy units which are within 6". Enemy units in transports which are within 6" are within 6".

So, effectively, it does say that it affects enemy units in transports--as long as those transports are within 6". No loop holes required.

If everyone was as bad at reading rules as the people who irrationally cling to the belief that being in a transport, somehow, protects models from Spirit Leech, the game would never be played by the rules at all. It would be nothing but Calvin Ball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#Calvinball) with toy soldiers.

That is true...but can it affect crew in the transport?

I would think if it can affect the crew like weapons & other attacks like Psychic shooting attacks then yes but it cannot.

if it can't affect the crew then how could it affect the unit inside?


BTW

Calvin Ball!!! lol.

[Bean]

That'd be a reasonable argument-from-fluff, if arguments-from-fluff were ever reasonable when discussing rules.

As far as the rules are concerned, there are no crew which are separate from the vehicle. The rules just don't deal with vehicle crews at all. If the crew were a separate non-vehicle unit riding around inside the transport, then they would be affected. However, they are not. As far as the rules are concerned, they don't exist at all.

The vehicle itself is not affected because Spirit Leech specifically does not affect vehicle units.

I agree that, fluff wise, the Doom should be sucking the souls out of tank crews and generally rendering tanks un-crewed and therefor non-functional left and right. Rules-wise, though, it just doesn't work that way, and the fact that it doesn't has no bearing at all on the matter at hand--because, rules-wise, vehicle crews aren't at all comparable to units embarked in transports.

[Force21]

Renegade:
The rules allow Spirit Leech to affect every enemy unit within 6" of the Doom. The rules tell you that embarked enemy units can be within 6" of the Doom.





As far as the rules are concerned, there are no crew which are separate from the vehicle. The rules just don't deal with vehicle crews at all. If the crew were a separate non-vehicle unit riding around inside the transport, then they would be affected. However, they are not. As far as the rules are concerned, they don't exist at all.

The vehicle itself is not affected because Spirit Leech specifically does not affect vehicle units.

I agree that, fluff wise, the Doom should be sucking the souls out of tank crews and generally rendering tanks un-crewed and therefor non-functional left and right. Rules-wise, though, it just doesn't work that way, and the fact that it doesn't has no bearing at all on the matter at hand--because, rules-wise, vehicle crews aren't at all comparable to units embarked in transports.(awww their people too)


so... first it can affect every unit...

now it can't?

if it says it can affect every unit then it actually does affect vehicles but its power can't hurt it...

I think rulewise if it can harm the vehicle/crew then it can affect the unit inside... like it says in the rule book... page 67 effects of damage results on passengers.

& units can only embark/disembark in the movement phase & only forced to disembark if the vehicle is destroyed...

& if it did affect them how do you fall back? they bail out & run? the vehicle itself turns & run? which opens how can vehicles be affected by Ld?

it just opens up a can of worms of non existent rules...


I don't want to start arguing because it breaks the most important rule...


I would just wait & to see what GW says...or like someone said to me... call a GW like 5 or so times ask em & see what answer you get the most lol.

[Bean]

so... first it can affect every unit...

now it can't?

if it says it can affect every unit then it actually does affect vehicles but its power can't hurt it...

My first statement was an error. It is every enemy non-vehicle unit--which is identical as far as embarked units are concerned.


I think rulewise if it can harm the vehicle/crew then it can affect the unit inside... like it says in the rule book... page 67 effects of damage results on passengers.

Rules-wise, it can't affect the vehicle/crew, but it can affect the unit inside. This distinction is caused by the fact that the unit inside the transport is not a vehicle unit but the vehicle/crew is, and Spirit Leech specifically doesn't affect vehicle units (contrary to my earlier statement).



& units can only embark/disembark in the movement phase & only forced to disembark if the vehicle is destroyed...

& if it did affect them how do you fall back? they bail out & run? the vehicle itself turns & run? which opens how can vehicles be affected by Ld?

it just opens up a can of worms of non existent rules...


That can of worms has been open ever since 5th edition came out. Embarked units have always been able to take casualties and potentially be forced to fall back, due to things like Perils of the Warp and Gets Hot!

Saying that you don't want to play it a particular way because it opens a can of worms might have some merit, but you can't lay that particular can of worms on Doom, and playing Doom wrong because it causes that problem doesn't seem to be the right response.

At the least, you'd also have to make embarked Psyckers immune to Perils of the Warp and embarked plasma-gunners immune to Gets Hot! to have any sort of consistency.




I don't want to start arguing because it breaks the most important rule...


It only violates the most important rule if playing by the rules isn't important to having fun. Personally, I find the game more fun when we follow the rules, and I find it less fun when my opponent wants to ignore the rules. Personally, I find it more fun to argue about what the rules are than to let my opponent walk all over me by inventing and using whatever rules he or she wants.

But, to each his own, I guess...



I would just wait & to see what GW says...or like someone said to me... call a GW like 5 or so times ask em & see what answer you get the most lol.

Yeah, I don't have any respect for or trust in the operators of the GW rules hotline. As you note, they are notoriously inconsistent. There's no reason to take their word over anyone else's.

In this case, the rules are perfectly clear until you get to the falling back, part (but, as I said, that's been a problem for a lot longer than the Doom of Malan'tai has existed). I plan to play by the rules, which include allowing Spirit Leech to affect embarked units. Of course, I don't play 'nids, and I don't intend to use the Doom, and I don't even really expect to see it on the table, so that probably doesn't mean a whole lot in practical terms.

[Mobious]

Can we just end it with something like I posted ^ there? I think by now everyone understands the rule. RAW if effects units in transports, but a lot of us are unwilling to accept it because we usually do not have embarked units getting hurt from enemy powers. It is new and slimey and we really should wait for an FAQ for the reasons I stated above.

How would you feel if you won the last game of a tournament and took the crown home only to find out a week later you were cheating? It would suck wouldn't. That is the exact reason I do not use Corbulo's exsanguinator to save my smoked Dreadnoughts; because it feels wrong and it's not fun to f*ck your friends over and find out you were cheating.

[Bean]

If everyone did, in fact, understand the RAW, then yes, your sentiments would probably be sufficient.

However, despite the myriad explanations of the rules contained in this thread alone, some people still have yet to grasp their simple truths.

Also, if you play the Doom the way it's written and GW releases an errata or FAQ for it later, you weren't cheating. The FAQ or Errata changes the rules.

If you consumed LSD before it was illegal, you didn't suddenly become guilty of a crime when the law against it was passed.

Play the Doom the way the rules tell you to play the Doom. If a document comes out which changes the rules, then start playing it the way the new rules tell you to play it. Anything else is cheating (or ignorance of the rules). Suggesting that you don't want to have an FAQ come out and discover that you've been cheating is completely illogical.

It'd be like not wanting to buy a house because if it becomes illegal to buy houses at some point in the furture, you'll have committed a crime. That's obvious nonsense. Laws don't work retroactively and neither do rules.

[Tynskel]

"& if it did affect them how do you fall back? they bail out & run? the vehicle itself turns & run? which opens how can vehicles be affected by Ld?"

You are trying to use nonsense to prevent 'Spirit Leech' from working. p. 66 measure to hull for embarked units. In second edition, there were ways to directly effect drivers. Since then, there has not- they were lumped into the vehicle damage table. Since 'Spirit Leech' doesn't effect vehicles, those drivers/gunners are safe.

Done.

The only rule against damage to an embarked unit is for targets trying to 'shoot' an embarked unit, and since 'Spirit Leech' is not a gun, you ignore those rules.

The 'Spirit Leech' effects non-vehicle units. A unit within a transport NEVER changes status to 'Vehicle'.

The rules are quite clear for Moral Tests. You can take one while being in a vehicle. You can only voluntarily leave your embark/disembark once per round- however, there is no limit on being forced to disembark. There are rules for disembarking in weird situations, like all the hatches are blocked. And there are rules for when you can't disembark because you are surrounded by impassable terrain- which if bailing was due to moral, the unit would be destroyed due to 'Trapped' (they got out and died in the process!).

I am not sure why this rule is causing such an uproar. The Main rule book is clear, and the 'Spirit Leech' rule is clear.

[Mortifis]

And it still has to affect the unit through the vehilce. Not happening, and nothing in the rules allows that to happen. A flamer does not target, its a template, but it cannot effect a transported unit. To many holes in this argument to make it work, unless GW state otherwise. Till then, dont expect anyone to just allow it.
No, its not actually going through the vehicle. Its using the vehicle as a position marker, to show that the unit is, in fact, in range. Once we know the unit is in range (again, because the rules tell us it is), the unit is affected. Completely unrelated to the vehicle.

Also, vehicles effectively don't have "crew". Crew don't exist in the rules, in the codecii, or in the game. You can't affect crew because there aren't any. We presume, in the stories and the background, that they are there. But fluff doesn't affect rules on the table.

Flamers don't work against embarked vehicles, and I'll tell you why:

Look at the rules for shooting, with template weapons. You place the template, and count the number of models under the template... oh wait. Embarked units have no models on the table, so all the flamer hits is the vehicle model under the template. Again, units inside tranports don't have models on the table, but the unit itself is very much inside the vehicle.



There are no rules that state the Mawlocs hole works one way, and it inaffect contects the reserves to the table, so what happens to the hole can technically happen to the reserves. Same rules lawering your using.
The Mawloc doesn't leave a "hole". Are you getting confused with the Trygon, which does leave a "hole"? Even with the Trygon, you can't affect units through the "hole", because they haven't entered play yet.

Units inside vehicles are still "in play", even though their models have been taken and set aside. The rules tell us all this.


And for anyone who actually reads the thread - IT ONLY WORKS WITHIN 6"!!!!

So stop whingeing about how it "breaks the rules" or its "over-powered", and just keep your units more than 6" away from it. Simple.

[HsojVvad]

You forgot one thing Mortis. Using a flamer is a shooting attack. Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. Anything inside a vechicle cannot be shot at. That is why a flamer dosn't effect units inside a vehicle. But Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack, it's not a pychic attack either so it can effect units in a vehicle.

This was all explained beautifully by lots of people here. I guess not many have read all the posts in this thread.

[Bean]

Actually, HsojVvad, it was basically explained by Mortifis very beautifully in the post immediately above yours.

Mortifis is right--embarked units have no blanket protection against shooting attacks. Instead, the fact that none of the embarked unit's actual models are on the table effectively protects them from shooting attacks (normal ones, ones that ignore line of sight, blast weapons, barrage weapons, and flamers are all included, in one way or another).

As you say, this has been explained before in painstaking detail by more than one person.

Mortifis' post is spot on, and you and he appear to be on the same side of this argument. No need to criticize him!

[BuFFo]

:)

[Renegade]

Mortifis is right--embarked units have no blanket protection against shooting attacks. Instead, the fact that none of the embarked unit's actual models are on the table

Point one, The power can only effect what is on the table.


Crew don't exist in the rules, in the codecii, or in the game. You can't affect crew because there aren't any.

Damage table "Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned" would seem to say the opposite. But this is the way that they are effected throughout the rules.

If the "power" cannot effect the vehicle, then it cannot effect what is in it. To argue counter to this comes up against Dreadnoughts, we know that the pilot is in there, but cant be effected.

Run a round the rules all you want, it doesnt change the fact that you cant use doom against what is in a transport.

This whole argument is circular, as for any argument for, based on the rules, the rules also say that you cant.

[Bean]

Run a round the rules all you want, it doesnt change the fact that you cant use doom against what is in a transport.

Where does it say that Spirit Leech can't affect stuff in a transport?

You keep asserting that there is a rule which prevents this. Where is it?

The rules which concretely allow Spirit Leech to affect units in transports have been demonstrated many times over. Your ramblings about crew are obviously irrelevant, as far as the rules are concerned.

What do you have that actually supports your position?

[gcsmith]

The Units are on the table The fact that rules state measure to the transport renegade shows they do have a position, However u claim that a transport somehow magically protects them when its not a power and all RAW say you can.

[Renegade]

The same rules that state that the Doom cannot effect vehicles. If it cant effect the vehilce then how can it effect what is in the vehicle? I have already demonstrated how hoods etc can effect psykers, and that one is just circular, Doom is neither of them.

However, the is nothing in the codex that says Doom does effect transported units, nothing in the rules that 100% supports that it can be used to effect units in transports. Measure to the hull all you want, that means jack, it does not state in the C:T that it works the way you are describing, and I had a local nid player look.

In till you can point out exactly where it says it does, which you have not done so far, it does not. And even the staff at my local GW have ruled against it.

Its only a few internet randoms that are pushing for it, good luck finding anyone that will allow it in RL.

[Bean]

It fails to affect the transport because the transport is a vehicle unit and the power specifically doesn't affect vehicle units.

This is not true for the unit inside the transport, because the unit inside the transport is not a vehicle unit.

It's really quite simple.

The rules do quite concretely say that Spirit Leech affects embarked units. It affects all enemy non-vehicle units within 6" of the Doom.

An enemy unit in a transport which is within 6" of the Doom is an enemy non-vehicle unit within 6" of the Doom. Thus Spirit Leech affects it.

This too, is quite simple.

Your failure to grasp it, and inability to give up utter irrelevancies like crew is really boggling my mind.

[gcsmith]

Luck, my whole store agrees , The fact that you call us randoms. um lol ur the only one arguing, As we have sed why does it matter you cant affect the vehicle, On that basis hoods cant work due to them not affecting the vehicle, Next you will say shadow of the warp wont affect units in the transports. Because the wording is the same. And I know it is intended to work. otherwise the SW trinkets dont work as the psychers rules dnt say it works out of the vehicle. THE CODEX DOESNT NEED TO SAY IT. the rule book says it just fine :P

[Ferro]

haha.. a few internet randoms... and the INAT FAQ.

[setsunakai]

The same rules that state that the Doom cannot effect vehicles. If it cant effect the vehilce then how can it effect what is in the vehicle?

wait i must have missed something, how did you explain embarked units magically turning into vehicles?

do they lose their stats, gain AVs, or unit type changes to vehicles?

your far from explaining how "every non-vehicle unit within 6 inches" somehow excludes units in a vehicle

they are still within 6 inches and aren't unit type: vehicle

[Shavnir]

wait i must have missed something, how did you explain embarked units magically turning into vehicles?

do they lose their stats, gain AVs, or unit type changes to vehicles?

your far from explaining how "every non-vehicle unit within 6 inches" somehow excludes units in a vehicle

they are still within 6 inches and aren't unit type: vehicle

I can understand the confusion because whenever I get into my car I magically turn into a vehicle.

[BuFFo]

haha.. a few internet randoms... and the INAT FAQ.

Same thing.

[Bean]

Wow, you finally got to say that and have it actually be true, Buffo. Grats!

[BuFFo]

Wow, you finally got to say that and have it actually be true, Buffo. Grats!

You must mistake me for someone who actually cares about your opinions. :rolleyes:

[Bean]

Nah, I'm (somewhat) more realistic than that. Still, it doesn't hurt to try.

[Sir Biscuit]

The Sole Survivor
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7172/solesurvivor.jpg

This thread is a barrel of laughs, let me tell you.

[BuFFo]

lol....

Now that is what we call funny!

[david5th]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[rle68]

"& if it did affect them how do you fall back? they bail out & run? the vehicle itself turns & run? which opens how can vehicles be affected by Ld?"

You are trying to use nonsense to prevent 'Spirit Leech' from working. p. 66 measure to hull for embarked units. In second edition, there were ways to directly effect drivers. Since then, there has not- they were lumped into the vehicle damage table. Since 'Spirit Leech' doesn't effect vehicles, those drivers/gunners are safe.

Done.

The only rule against damage to an embarked unit is for targets trying to 'shoot' an embarked unit, and since 'Spirit Leech' is not a gun, you ignore those rules.

The 'Spirit Leech' effects non-vehicle units. A unit within a transport NEVER changes status to 'Vehicle'.

The rules are quite clear for Moral Tests. You can take one while being in a vehicle. You can only voluntarily leave your embark/disembark once per round- however, there is no limit on being forced to disembark. There are rules for disembarking in weird situations, like all the hatches are blocked. And there are rules for when you can't disembark because you are surrounded by impassable terrain- which if bailing was due to moral, the unit would be destroyed due to 'Trapped' (they got out and died in the process!).

I am not sure why this rule is causing such an uproar. The Main rule book is clear, and the 'Spirit Leech' rule is clear.


and also by page 67 the only way a unit is affected while in a transport is by damage done to the vehicle
ill ask here since i have defended this nonsense in another thread show me any rule anywhere that an affect from an outside enemy source can affect a unit while embarked

no such rule exists
DOM does not say it affects units in transports thus it does not i am not voicing an opinion i am statig facts as decided by the rulebook that shows the only places units are effected by an outside source you cant shoot them assault them psychic them nothign no way no how unilt they leave the transport

DOM does not says it affects units in transports and until they FAQ or ERRATA that nothing changes that fact so no DOM does not affect a unit in a transport all you double wording not withstanding

provide some page number with documentation thats says otherwise then ill fall in line till then sorry charlie

[Shavnir]

and also by page 67 the only way a unit is affected while in a transport is by damage done to the vehicle
ill ask here since i have defended this nonsense in another thread show me any rule anywhere that an affect from an outside enemy source can affect a unit while embarked

no such rule exists
DOM does not say it affects units in transports thus it does not i am not voicing an opinion i am statig facts as decided by the rulebook that shows the only places units are effected by an outside source you cant shoot them assault them psychic them nothign no way no how unilt they leave the transport

DOM does not says it affects units in transports and until they FAQ or ERRATA that nothing changes that fact so no DOM does not affect a unit in a transport all you double wording not withstanding

provide some page number with documentation thats says otherwise then ill fall in line till then sorry charlie

Damage to vehicles can hurt embarked troops -> nothing else can hurt embarked troops

That's your logic am I correct? There is no connection outside that which you have outright fabricated that implies that connection. There doesn't need to be an exception to the "no outside effects may hurt embarked troops" because there is no rule that states that, or comes even close to stating that. Since there is not a special rule that protects embarked troops from outside effects (ignoring the obvious FAQ question regarding psychic attacks seeing as it isn't relevant here) what you're asking me is to prove something the rules don't need to explicitly allow.

That being said if you wish to prove your point about page 67 containing text that amounts to "passengers in transport vehicles are immune to outside effects" I fully encourage you to point it out because all I see is a special case involving embarked troops taking effects from their transport being hit.

EDIT : At least now we're arguing in the right thread. If this can even be called an argument that is.

[rle68]

Damage to vehicles can hurt embarked troops -> nothing else can hurt embarked troops

That's your logic am I correct? There is no connection outside that which you have outright fabricated that implies that connection. There doesn't need to be an exception to the "no outside effects may hurt embarked troops" because there is no rule that states that, or comes even close to stating that. Since there is not a special rule that protects embarked troops from outside effects (ignoring the obvious FAQ question regarding psychic attacks seeing as it isn't relevant here) what you're asking me is to prove something the rules don't need to explicitly allow.

That being said if you wish to prove your point about page 67 containing text that amounts to "passengers in transport vehicles are immune to outside effects" I fully encourage you to point it out because all I see is a special case involving embarked troops taking effects from their transport being hit.

EDIT : At least now we're arguing in the right thread. If this can even be called an argument that is.

i dont have to prove my point passed what i have already discussed, what you cannot do is prove yours at all. the only rules that exist for affecting units in a transport is listed on 67 no other rule exists. and in the absence of a negative is by fact a positive. no affect weapon or ability any enemy unit has can affect a unit in a transport no such rule says any different

as i have stated again and again show me the page and rule that says it affects units in transports as no ability or rule exists you cannot affect them with that ability end of statement

no rulling or affect you have ever mentioned changes that fact

[Shavnir]

i dont have to prove my point passed what i have already discussed, what you cannot do is prove yours at all. the only rules that exist for affecting units in a transport is listed on 67 no other rule exists. and in the absence of a negative is by fact a positive. no affect weapon or ability any enemy unit has can affect a unit in a transport no such rule says any different

as i have stated again and again show me the page and rule that says it affects units in transports as no ability or rule exists you cannot affect them with that ability end of statement

no rulling or affect you have ever mentioned changes that fact

Once again (and I'll end it with this unless you can actually produce such a rule) there is no rule that prevents abilities from hitting units inside transports. There is a FAQ ruling about psychic shooting attacks and there is the lack of range to a model in the unit (but not the unit itself) however in the case of the Doom of Malan'tai neither of those rules are relevant...so basically put up or shut up.

[rle68]

Unacceptable post.

[Tynskel]

The damage table on p.67 is ONLY for when the vehicle takes damage, because it is called 'Effects of Damage RESULTS on passengers'.

p.66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

'Spirit Leech' is not shooting, effects all non-vehicle units, and therefore does not qualify for the exception on p. 66.

Your reasoning (is incorrect, because p.66 says what to do) states that Shadows of the Warp, Spirit Leech, Aura of Despair, Dante's Terror, Straken's Cold Steel and Courage, Runes of Warding, Psychic Hood, Runic Weapon, ect ect ect do not work against embarked units. The problem is that p. 66 says they do.

There is nothing in the book that says you cannot be hurt while embarked. The only thing in the book states that you cannot shoot at someone embarked (p.66), except for flamers vs. building firepoints (p.80).

[rle68]

The damage table on p.67 is ONLY for when the vehicle takes damage, because it is called 'Effects of Damage RESULTS on passengers'.

p.66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

'Spirit Leech' is not shooting, effects all non-vehicle units, and therefore does not qualify for the exception on p. 66.

Your reasoning (is incorrect, because p.66 says what to do) states that Shadows of the Warp, Spirit Leech, Aura of Despair, Dante's Terror, Straken's Cold Steel and Courage, Runes of Warding, Psychic Hood, Runic Weapon, ect ect ect do not work against embarked units. The problem is that p. 66 says they do.

There is nothing in the book that says you cannot be hurt while embarked. The only thing in the book states that you cannot shoot at someone embarked (p.66), except for flamers vs. building firepoints (p.80).

Page 66 says nothng of the sort. where do you get that it does? that partial fragment you posted is for embarking and doesnt say DOM affects units in transports

once again show me where it says it affects unit even in transports.. it doesnt say that it says units and i have provided the only page anywhere in the rulebook where units can be affected and thats page 67

if i accept your premise then you accept that if you assault a space wolf vehicle you can be counterattack by the unit inside of it.. im good with that since you are claiming that the vehcile doesnt affect the unit then im fine with that

[Ferro]

Well said, Tynskel. I was going to add that the default rule is that units can be affected by the various special abilities, psychic powers, etc. This is our starting place. When we get to the case of a unit embarked, we modify the rules only where they tell us to. Several new limitations are imposed, but nothing which prevents those things Tynskel just mentioned above. Therefore, with respect to these abilities, the default condition still exists. These abilities still work on embarked units.

You're looking for (demanding) a special allowance for these things to work, and you're right that there isn't one. Yet, the reason there is no special allowance for these various powers to effect embarked units is simply because it's not required... it's the default condition.

I.e., Shadow in the Warp/Spirit Leech/etc. works according to it's rules. It doesn't need to say: SotW works even if the enemy is in Ruins, or in the open, or hiding behind a wall, or out of LOS, or is a half-strength, or is painted green.

Just because it doesn't say those things, you can't conclude that therefore the power doesn't work under those circumstances. It simply works according to its rules. What you should be looking for is some exception, telling us that it doesn't work under certain conditions. But no such exception exists.

[Dark_Templar]

It seems to me, the DoM now simultaneously does & doesn't affect units in a transport, and therefore the next time one is used on the tabletop at the same time the large hadron collider is active, a black hole will be created, destroying us all.

[rle68]

Well said, Tynskel. I was going to add that the default rule is that units can be affected by the various special abilities, psychic powers, etc. This is our starting place. When we get to the case of a unit embarked, we modify the rules only where they tell us to. Several new limitations are imposed, but nothing which prevents those things Tynskel just mentioned above. Therefore, with respect to these abilities, the default condition still exists. These abilities still work on embarked units.

You're looking for (demanding) a special allowance for these things to work, and you're right that there isn't one. Yet, the reason there is no special allowance for these various powers to effect embarked units is simply because it's not required... it's the default condition.

I.e., Shadow in the Warp/Spirit Leech/etc. works according to it's rules. It doesn't need to say: SotW works even if the enemy is in Ruins, or in the open, or hiding behind a wall, or out of LOS, or is a half-strength, or is painted green.

Just because it doesn't say those things, you can't conclude that therefore the power doesn't work under those circumstances. It simply works according to its rules. What you should be looking for is some exception, telling us that it doesn't work under certain conditions. But no such exception exists.

and no such rules says it does.. show me where it says you can affect a unit in a transport show me any psychic power that can target a unit in a transport

go ahead and post SOTW and post it word for word .....yes the exception does exist page 67 is the only reference anywhere in the book that addresses the units in a transport and as no such counter arguement exists that is by default the only exceptions to the unit in a transport
spirit leech for all of your attempts does not say it affects units in transports period end of statement

[Jwolf]

Wow, you guys could seriously bore the paint off the walls.

Is anyone here at all interested in considering the other side of the argument? Because I'm not seeing any real reason to keep this thread open much longer.

24 hours notice - something new or we'll shut this puppy down.

[BuFFo]

In before...

+1

(For the record, I play it either way. Which ever makes my opponent happy.)

[Ferro]

Nice to see you in here again, Mr. Wolf. You're not seeing much activity in favor of 'the other side of the argument' because no one is able to present a decent case for it. You, sir, are the defacto champion of the other side; perhaps it's time to re-enter the fray and slay this beast.

I did a better job presenting your side than most of your fellows. Here's a repost:

HsojVvad, and others: the argument goes like this--
1) In two places in the rulebook (embarking p66 and embarking in buildings p79) it tells us that when a unit embarks it is removed from the table.
2) Once removed from the table, a unit is not a valid target for any externally generated game mechanic, be it shooting, abilities, effects, special rules, whatever.
3) However, the embarked unit is able to initiate actions of its own by virtue of specific rules in the RB, FAQ and codecii. Such as: shooting, disembarking, capturing objectives, issuing orders, using any psychic power, etc.

The embarked unit can suffer consequences of its own actions, such as Gets Hot and Perils of the Warp, but in general it is not possible for anything to 'get in' from the outside. If this argument is correct, Shadows of the Warp, Runic Weapons, and Psychic Hoods (and any other such 'area of effect' ability) are not able to interact with an embarked unit.

This argument rests on point number 2 above, and the unsupported assumption that if models are 'set aside' the unit becomes untouchable.

It's my argument that #2 above is a relic of a previous rule-set, and is not supported by anything in the 5th ed rules. Quite the contrary, a clean reading of the rulebook makes it plain that in all respects an embarked unit is considered to be in the transport, on the table, still in play. They gain certain protections by virtue of being embarked (cannot be shot or assaulted/or at least no LOS to them--depending on which version of this defense you endorse), but these protections do not extend to the infinite and cover any-and-everything.

There. That is the gist of this 18 page thread. got it?

This is the heart of it, and it's also why I asked you to re-examine your unstated assumptions about transports. There's nothing in the rulebook which grants the general immunity you insist they have.

Now that we come down to it, I believe it's up to you to deliver the killing blow, or concede. I would gratefully welcome either one, just to put this thing to rest.

[Tynskel]

Page 66 says nothng of the sort. where do you get that it does? that partial fragment you posted is for embarking and doesnt say DOM affects units in transports

once again show me where it says it affects unit even in transports.. it doesnt say that it says units and i have provided the only page anywhere in the rulebook where units can be affected and thats page 67

if i accept your premise then you accept that if you assault a space wolf vehicle you can be counterattack by the unit inside of it.. im good with that since you are claiming that the vehcile doesnt affect the unit then im fine with that

Hmmm. You cannot counter attack while being embarked. Not one of your 'space wolves' is in Base to Base. There is a difference between being within a range and to be physically touching. The 'space wolves' are not engaged- p. 35: Who Can Fight...Models in BASE CONTACT (ie the transport, not models inside the transport) and Models within 2" of at least one model in their unit that is in BASE CONTACT with any enemy models (which the transport and embarked unit are separate units- nowhere in the rulebook does the rules say that the embarked unit has 'joined' the transport the way an independent character 'joins' units p. 48).

Just because the unit has embarked into a building/transport doesn't mean they are not effected by elements going on outside.

'If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.' (p.66)

'Spirit Leech': At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. p. 58 Tyranid Codex

The main rulebook says to measure from the vehicles hull to measure a range involving the embarked unit. IF infantry, a non-vehicle enemy unit, is embarked, such infantry is effected by the range by the 'Spirit Leech' power, because the power has a blanket range. However, soon, there will be a transport that carries dreadnoughts. A Dreadnought is a vehicle, therefore, if we were to measure to the hull of the vehicle to reach the embarked unit, the Dreadnought would be not effected because of the phrase 'non-vehicle enemy unit'. You would still measure to the hull of the transport. The Unit does not change its status when embarked inside the vehicle. There is not one mention in the rulebook about status change. However, there is mention on page 66 that to measure to a unit onboard that you measure to the hull. This rule explicitly disregards shooting. 'Spirit Leech' is an ability. If it was a gun, it would have said 'every non-vehicle units within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tia take an automatic shooting hit and must take a Ld test...' There are examples throughout the Tyranid Codex of Explicitly worded shooting attacks. Every single Psychic power for the Hive Tyrant is a Shooting attack. You cannot target a unit embarked with Paroxysm. Not to mention, you have to shoot the same target with your other weapons. Some of the Tervigon's Psychic powers are shooting attacks, and they explicitly hit friendly models. This means you cannot fire Stinger Salvo/Cluster Spines in the same phase- that's two different targets.

To discount 'Spirit Leech' from being able to effect embarked units is to undo convention of CODEXES and RULEBOOK.

Straken's Cold Steel and Courage (Imperial Guard)
Runic Weapon (Space Wolves)
Psychic Hood (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters)
Runic Ward (Eldar)
Aura of Despair (Tyranids)
Shadows of the Warp (Tyranids)
Spirit Leech (Tyranids)
Pariah and Culuxes Assassin 'Souless' (Necrons and Inquisition)
ect ect ect

All of these rules use a blanket range and are NOT a shooting attack. Almost all of them have a direct negative effect toward the opponent. All of these abilities work while emanating outside of an embarked unit applied to an embarked unit. All of these abilities work while emanating from an embarked unit applied to both non-embarked and embarked units. Example: A Space Wolf Runic Priest, while embarked, casts 'Storm Caller'. A Space Marine Librarian, embarked, measures from the hull of the vehicle the librarian is embarked in to the hull of the vehicle the Runic Priest is embarked in. If the Librarian is within 24", the Psychic Hood can be used to negate the power (a negative ability directed to an opponent, interrupting their phase, sounds VERY SIMILAR to Spirit Leech). If the Power is not negated, the Runic Priest's Vehicle, and every friendly unit within 6" of the hull of the vehicle the Runic Priest is embarked in receive a Cover Save. Including the units embarked (not that means anything, since you only take cover saves from shooting attacks, p.21)

[Jwolf]

I believe that poor word choices and ambiguous writing lend the "Doom works against embarked vehicles" a RAW leg to stand on. I would not use this leg myself, nor will I allow this leg at BoLSCon unmodified, but otherwise I can respect the Doom affects units in vehicles RAW argument as correct.

I believe that, had the writers intended for the Doom to affect units in vehicles, they would have said so, as they did in the case of the Parasite.

That said, I'd like to experiment with the INAT version in some test games, to see if their version addresses the issue fairly.

[Shavnir]

I believe that poor word choices and ambiguous writing lend the "Doom works against embarked vehicles" a RAW leg to stand on. I would not use this leg myself, nor will I allow this leg at BoLSCon unmodified, but otherwise I can respect the Doom affects units in vehicles RAW argument as correct.

I believe that, had the writers intended for the Doom to affect units in vehicles, they would have said so, as they did in the case of the Parasite.

That said, I'd like to experiment with the INAT version in some test games, to see if their version addresses the issue fairly.

Out of curiosity does BoLSCon have a unified ruling document, its version of the INAT as it were?

[Jwolf]

I have many sanity issues, Shavnir. Redoing the INAT is not one of them. Last year 95+% of rules questions were simple confusion with 4th edition rules, so a comprehensive FAQ for BoLSCon seems like a terrible idea, in terms of return on time invested.

All of our judges will be up to date on the rules and we will use the INAT to handle most other rules issues, if we need a reference.

[Ferro]

Ironic how this whole thing seems to be related to confusion with 4th edition rules, too. A dear friend of mine once said:


No, the Doom of Malan'Tai can't kill guys in transports. That this is even a question(for anyone) is a product of poor comprehension of the overall ruleset.

I'm certainly up to date on the rules... you're thinking of asking me to be a judge, aren't you? :)

(I'm done, I promise. You love me.)
:):):)

[Loken]

OK, I spent a few hours on a plane (love in-flight wifi) reading through 35 pages of this thread.

The argument AGAINST the power affecting an embarked unit is basically that it is not on the table. Which I find flawed. You take the unit of the table because there is no way to cram those models into that Rhino! It is that simple. The argument that JWolf makes is that it ISN'T on the table unless it does something. I mean, honestly, that just sounds ridiculous "My unit only counts as being on the table when it does something, and thus it benefits me". So you get all the benefits, but no downside.

I find the best explanation FOR the power affecting the unit to be this:


You cannot compare the Mawloc to this. They are in no way similar. The Mawloc is removed from the table (the unit is removed from the table, as well as the model) and placed into reserve. By definition, if it is in Reserve, it isn't on the table.

Units in transports is a different matter entirely. The embarked unit is inside the transport.

Now again, let us go back to the rules governing transports:

"If players need to measure a range involving the unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull"

Now, if somehow you still fail to grasp the implications of this, I'll break it down into smaller chunks.

"If players need to" This is for BOTH players, not just for the owning player.

"measure a range". Fairly simple, yes? We're measuring a range. 6" from the Doom of Malan'Tai.

"involving the unit". Also fairly simple. The embarked unit is non-vehicle, so is involved.

"(except for its shooting)". This isn't the embarked unit shooting. Moving on.

"this range is measured" This is the important part, telling us HOW to measure...

"to and from the vehicle's hull".

We can measure TO, and we can measure FROM, the transport vehicle's hull to determine if the transported unit is within range. If the transport is within range, the embarked unit is within range.

The vehicle itself not being affected is irrelevant, as we have already proven that embarked units don't magically "become one" with their transport.


Take it for what it is. But that is what I synthesized 35 pages down into. A lot of nonsense, a lot of irrelevant posts. A lot of explanations with no basis in the rules. But the ones that were coherent came down to those two arguments and I just don't see any real support for the first.

Thanks though. A lot of really well thought out posts, and the whole thread was basically rather civil.

Alec

[Jwolf]

Great note to end the thread on.