Verdict on the Wood Elves?

[Mr Mystery]

It's finally here. After a great many years, the Stick Pixies have got a shiny new book, full of spangly new models and rules.

But....is it in fact any good?

For those who are relative new comers, the current batch of 8th edition army books, starting with Orcs and Goblins have done a stand up job of keeping the game nicely balanced. Sure there are usually really nasty units in each book, but overall the outcome is more down to player ability than ever before.

Wood Elves.....well they've kind of been the red headed stepchild of Warhammer for a while now. Long gaps between books, and all too often quickly outdated. The switch to 8th and the drawbacks to skirmishers hit them really hard. Not only did you lose manouvreability with Skirmish, but ranked units got a lot, lot harder. Even combat mechanics walloped Wood Elves. Traditionally, the Wood Elves depended upon a front rank wipe in combat, as more than other Elves they really couldn't absorb retaliation.

Worse, they also depended heavily on terrain to keep them safe, by slowing down the enemy. Before 8th Edition, ranked units wandering around Woods or other difficult terrain halved their movement, and couldn't march... But not anymore, now it's just dangerous terrain tests all round, but no real slowing down.

Now, I've not picked up the book yet, so I'll shut up soon. Instead of me waffling, it's over to you to tell the BoLs world what you think of it. Has it brought the army up to snuff? Has it tinkered too much and changed the overall feel of a guerilla force?

Let's get ready to MUUUUUUUMBLE!

[Chronowraith]

Forests provide other benefits other than difficult/dangerous terrain. For starters, units can't be steadfast when in woods. Leave a tiny 1/2" lip to the front of the forest and suddenly the Wood Elves are amazing and don't have to worry about that giant block of Skaven Slaves trying to tie them up.

Overall, I'd give Wood Elves a solid B. They have some obvious bonuses and they have a decent spread of unit types and advantages. They also have some big drawbacks though. They are weak and squishy (S3 across most units, T3 with little to no armor). Internal balance is mostly there. They have some pretty awesome units that people would be crazy to go without (Wild Riders, Glade Riders, and the Sisters). While other units are "okay" but obviously weaker choices (sadly, Warhawk Riders fall into this category... again).

Magic, they prove very versatile. They aren't quite as versatile as Slann but they have more options available to them than even High Elves and I like that this represents the dual-sided nature of the wild. Of the two lore attributes I'd give the edge to the High Magic side of things as those protection ward tokens are pretty awesome. General die to a lucky cannonball? Well that won't happen if he or his unit had one of these protection counters.

The addition of the Wildwood rangers gives the army some much needed offense in the form of block infantry. I'd rate them higher than Eternal Guard who are still a decent choice (and EG are Core as opposed to Special). The way they treat the magic arrows is fantastic although expensive. This also makes WE the hard counter to the VC spirit armies that frequent tournaments and singlehandedly shuts down the Ethereal frogs as WE would quickly leave the Lizardmen without a general.

Overall I really like the book. They play like a slightly more balanced version of Dark Elves but still retain much of the feel that they had previously (while still working in the game). They somehow managed to lose a little of what little defense they had, but they gained a great deal of punch. I do feel they lack the ability to deal with higher toughness armies (not individual models like monsters) but that's still up for debate. I'm hoping to test that out tomorrow when I play against my buddy's WE with my Skaven... and if more time... my Warriors of Chaos.

Seriously... the ground cavalry in this book is stupid good. Ambushing Fast Cavalry that can take poison arrows? Yes please. Fast Cavalry that are ASF with 3 WS5 S5 attacks with armor piercing (and a WS3 S4 mount attack) on the Charge? Yes Please. Another Fast Cavalry that can cast Shield of Thorns or Curse of Anraheir to support other and also have 4+ Wards and Poison attacks (both melee and ranged)? Heck, yeah! Keeping Fast Cavalry on these units means that the WE player shouldn't feel like they have to take larger units and thus adds to the feelings of roving bands of ambushers.

If anyone has non-points related questions about the book... just let me know. I'm more than willing to fill in the blanks.

[lattd]

Have they expanded the twilight sisters background ? Also in your opinion which units are the big winners and losers?

[Chronowraith]

Big Winners?

Glade Riders - Ambush + Magic Arrows makes for some of the best warmachine hunters (Come in from back table edge and shoot poison arrows)
Wild Riders - I mentioned this in my previous post, but on the charge these guys hit like a ton of bricks.
Glade Guard - Access to Magic Arrows will allow players to tailor units for specific purposes
War Dancers - Nullify rank bonuses means they can face down large blocks of infantry again.
Sisters of the Thorn - Similar to DE Warlocks but more support in nature than pure offense.
Wildwood Rangers - They are similar to White Lions now (not quite as good, but cheaper).

Losers
Warhawk Riders - They better than their previous incarnations but they are still pretty lackluster.
Dryads - That loss of S4 and moving from a 5+ Ward to 6+ Ward hurt... a lot. Still usable but only as a solid anvil block.
Waywatchers - Replacing Killing Blow with the ability to choose between multiple shots or ignoring armor is a bit of a wash but the loss of their uber-scout deployment really hurts.

As for the Twilight Sisters I can't really respond on that. It *looks* expanded from what I remember, but I never really read up on them to begin with. They have about a page of fluff in their entry (I have the digital copy so it's hard to judge) and they are mentioned a few times in the history.

[Houghten]

Well, I still wish we'd got plastic Wardancers, Warhawk Riders, Treekin and Forest Dragons (no need for Waywatchers though; the new Wildwood Ranger heads will make it pretty easy to convert them out of Glade Guard).

Does that count as a loss, or are we dealing purely in rules here?


They have some pretty awesome units that people would be crazy to go without (Wild Riders, Glade Riders, and the Sisters).

Hell, you could make an all-cavalry army and watch Bretonnian players weep into their grails.

[Chronowraith]

I was speaking purely from a rules perspective.

I agree with models. I was really hoping for new war hawk riders as those are a pain to assemble (and keep together). I also wish they had redone tree kin as their current design doesn't fit with the treemen and dryads. Current war dancers are passable and I never had much hope about the forest dragon.

[Theik]

General die to a lucky cannonball? Well that won't happen if he or his unit had one of these protection counters.

Unless you first shoot an arrow at the unit, in which case you no longer have protection counters because spending them is not optional.

[Chronowraith]

My point being that it could happen. There are plenty of armies out there where you only ever see warmachines and ranged BS weapons are few and far between (Skaven, Ogres, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, etc).

[lattd]

Quick question is the sisters of twilight'a dragon counted as a monster? Or monstrous cavalry?

[Domine Nox]

Dragon is a Monster for Sisters of Twilight, and IMO not as good as their eagle option.

And in regards to the wound token, you aren't going to snipe a general out of a unit with an arrow, but you can with a cannonball. So unless the Wizard is running around by himself, it is not a valid counterpoint to how effective the wound tokens are.

[Chronowraith]

Treated as a Forest Dragon of the normal variety, so a monster.

[lattd]

No 6 wound ultra elves, if they release a new dragon I'll get some hobbit eagles, twins on an eagle and lord on the dragon.

[Chronowraith]

Well, it's pretty rough to kill the twins when they are on the dragon. If you don't kill both of them in the same turn... they pop back up at full wounds. I'm still not certain how that works with the Eagle given that it's a monstrous beast... but *shrugs* I'll never take it so I'm not too worried about it.

[lattd]

As its monstrous cavalry they get an extra wound and toughness, so they have more wounds to take and at a higher toughness but are easier to hit, where as on the dragon they have a lower wound and toughness but are harder to hit.... The weirder bit is the bow that heals the mount, as the bow heals the mount but the eagle cant be killed separately, does the bow heal the sisters?

[Tomgar]

My two cents: disappointed at Forest spirit nerf, strength reduction on the various trees, Dryads becoming utter garbage and loss of S4 bows at short range.

Happy with points reductions, enchanted arrows (YES!), massive boost to our casting abilities, huge buffs to Treeman ancients, range of armour piercing options, new characters, new Waywatchers and viable ability to take infantry blocks.

The Wildwood rangers will be excellent and a block of 25-30 will pump out fantastic amounts of damage at high initiative. I approve of them wholeheartedly. Eternal Guard being core AND stubborn without a character is huge, adds a decent infantry block option to our repertoire to hold up enemy chargers. Glade Riders have gone from awful to one of the best units in the game with ambush and magic arrows.

Wild Riders will just melt heavily armoured, high toughness units (Wyssan's wildform to get 15 S6 attacks with AP on the charge. That will obliterate entire units of Warriors of Chaos). I dig the Sisters a lot (people mock curse of Anraheir but I find it quite useful) and they should combo well with flanking Glade Riders or Wild Riders.

Deepwood Scouts and Glade Guard have become truly top-tier imo. Yes, they only have S3 bows, but their magic arrows could potentially be devastating and against slow moving armies, they'll just mop up.

Waywatchers, with their deny armour save shots, will crush units of Chaos Knights and the like (very happy about this :D).

Overall, I'm pretty chuffed! Think we'll have a lot of options for unit synergy and the book has good internal balance at first glance. The only real casualty of this book to me is Dryads. They've become utter tripe.

[Theik]

Dragon is a Monster for Sisters of Twilight, and IMO not as good as their eagle option.

And in regards to the wound token, you aren't going to snipe a general out of a unit with an arrow, but you can with a cannonball. So unless the Wizard is running around by himself, it is not a valid counterpoint to how effective the wound tokens are.

My point wasn't that you are going to snipe a general out of a unit with an arrow. My point is that if you shoot the unit with an arrow, they will be forced to spend their wound token on saving that wound, which means they have nothing left when you cannonball them in the face.

[Mr Mystery]

So you're back to where everyone else is when it comes to cannon sniping. Namely 'Look Out Sir'. Which is normally pretty reliable.

[angrybear]

My two cents: disappointed at Forest spirit nerf, strength reduction on the various trees, Dryads becoming utter garbage and loss of S4 bows at short range.

Happy with points reductions, enchanted arrows (YES!), massive boost to our casting abilities, huge buffs to Treeman ancients, range of armour piercing options, new characters, new Waywatchers and viable ability to take infantry blocks.

The Wildwood rangers will be excellent and a block of 25-30 will pump out fantastic amounts of damage at high initiative. I approve of them wholeheartedly. Eternal Guard being core AND stubborn without a character is huge, adds a decent infantry block option to our repertoire to hold up enemy chargers. Glade Riders have gone from awful to one of the best units in the game with ambush and magic arrows.

Wild Riders will just melt heavily armoured, high toughness units (Wyssan's wildform to get 15 S6 attacks with AP on the charge. That will obliterate entire units of Warriors of Chaos). I dig the Sisters a lot (people mock curse of Anraheir but I find it quite useful) and they should combo well with flanking Glade Riders or Wild Riders.

Deepwood Scouts and Glade Guard have become truly top-tier imo. Yes, they only have S3 bows, but their magic arrows could potentially be devastating and against slow moving armies, they'll just mop up.

Waywatchers, with their deny armour save shots, will crush units of Chaos Knights and the like (very happy about this :D).

Overall, I'm pretty chuffed! Think we'll have a lot of options for unit synergy and the book has good internal balance at first glance. The only real casualty of this book to me is Dryads. They've become utter tripe.

You make some good points but I have to disagree with the wildwood rangers. I think wildwoodrangers are best used in small units like swordmaster. With only a 6+ save they are to fragile.

[Jimmynurgle]

You make some good points but I have to disagree with the wildwood rangers. I think wildwoodrangers are best used in small units like swordmaster. With only a 6+ save they are to fragile.

Bear is right... as a block they are way too fragile. But as a Flank unit (Example, them with Walk between Worlds on them)- 15-20 would do massive damage. I'd think 20 would be the max size unit before they start to not make back their points... however, slam, them into a flank of a unit in combat already or a shot up unit and they will be golden. All 3 of my Demon armies will be on the lookout for them....

[Chronowraith]

Everything in the WE is fragile other than Treekin and Treemen. Almost all of the units are T3 and have either a 6+ Armor save or a 6+ ward save. Eternal Guard can get a 5+ Armor save. That's pretty much it in terms of defense for WE.

So saying a specific unit can't fill a certain role because "they are to fragile." is a bit unfair.

I've been trying to tell everyone that Dryads are suitable as an anvil unit and people keep telling me that they are too squishy with little damage output. Well, I agree with the damage statement but T4 6+ Ward is pretty fantastic for this book.

I'd offer up an alternative. WE have no traditional anvil units because they are not intended to be in combat for more than a turn or two. They are the fantasy equivalent to Eldar. Focus all your might at a single point, and then dance away into the woods where opponents will have a hard time reaching you (and you gain more advantages).

[lattd]

I think a waystalker with bow of loren is being over looked, yes the waystalker can shoot twice, but what he can do with the bow of loren is shoot twice and ignore armour saves at the same time. Doesnt sound that great but combined with sniper you can force heroes out of units to hide, combine this with glade guard with trueflight or a scout unit with trueflight and its not safe for that hero to be out on their own either.

[Mr Mystery]

I think a waystalker with bow of loren is being over looked, yes the waystalker can shoot twice, but what he can do with the bow of loren is shoot twice and ignore armour saves at the same time. Doesnt sound that great but combined with sniper you can force heroes out of units to hide, combine this with glade guard with trueflight or a scout unit with trueflight and its not safe for that hero to be out on their own either.

Can also snipe out unit champions, preventing irritating challenges which stop you mashing up his rank and file with a fighty character :)

[Caitsidhe]

I was a dedicated Wood Elf player. I've read the new book closely. My view is that they are pretty much exactly where they were before. Some of their tricks changed but the overall effectiveness of the army remains the same, i.e. poor.

[Solution9]

I have much concern for my Forest Spirit army. When I get that army back I'll know for sure. I'm still in the process of moving and they are in storage :(

[lattd]

I think we look much better than before, give a fully kitted out glade lord the enchanted shield on monstrous stag and he will be tough to ****, combine that with the helm of the hunt an Asrai spear and stick him with wild riders and you have a pretty Killy unit!

[Mr Mystery]

Should be picking up the book tomorrow, which is nice.

[Wildeybeast]

I have much concern for my Forest Spirit army. When I get that army back I'll know for sure. I'm still in the process of moving and they are in storage :(

Not really. Dryads are slightly worse, having lost a point of S and I for a 1point reduction. Tree king are better, having lost a point of S for a 20 point reduction. Freemen are pretty much the same as they were. The ward save has gone to 6+ but is permanent now, so that's much of a muchness. I don't see them being any worse off than they were before.

Generally, I think wood elves are much better off. Sure, they are as fragile as ever, but now they hit like a ton of bricks. More importantly, their shooting is now effective. You can take glade guard to do something other than just fill out your core allowance, and with asf they will stand up reasonably well against bog standard troops.