Tyranid Codex

[TheBitzBarn]

I have the Codex in Hand and looks cool as Heck
Ranged Weapons
Barbed Strangler 36" S4 AP5 A1 Large Blast Pinning
Cluster Spines 18" S5 AP- A1Large Blast
Deathspitter 18" S5 AP5 A3
Devourer 18" S4 AP- A3 - if the enemy takes a wound LD test needed at -1
Brainleech Worms(subset of Devourer) 18" S6 AP- A6
Fleshborer 12" S4 AP5 A1
Heavy Venon Cannon 36" S9 AP4 A1 Blast -1 to all vehicle result unless open topped
Venon Cannon 36" S6 AP4 A1 Blast -1 to all vehicle result unless open topped
Spinefist 12" S3 AP5 AX TL one shot per base attacks on model
Stinger Salvo 18" S5 AP4 A4
Stanglethron Cannon 36" S6 AP5 A1 Large Blast Pinning
Close Combat
Bonesword NO ARMOR SAVES and Take a Leadership Test or DIE if 2 Bonesword Take Test on 3d6
Crushing Claws extra d3 attacks at I1
Lash Whip Reduces I to 1
Rending Claws have Rending
Scything Talons reroll 1 in CC, if Pair reroll all failed to hits
Units
Fex is Greater in Cost than Leman Russ with Side Sponsons and is S9 T6 and W4 Sv3+ 2 Sets of Talons, Living Battering Ram +2I when he charges
Tryant is 10pts greater than Fex and S6 T6 W4 Sv3+ comes with Lash whip BoneSword and Scything Talons and is a Psyker
Spores ARE NOT SCORING UNITS
Non Synapse creatures have instinctive behavor and is outside synapse they follow the behavior listed in the unit either:
Lurk and they go to Area Terrain or if in it Stay Put can shoot and must be at NEAREST enemy
Feed and they charge the nearest enemy unit
Stealers are troops and Broodlord is a unit upgrade no limit and can infiltrate BUT only 5+ save and Broodlord has 4+ and is a Psyker they cost 2 less than a Marine and Brood is more expensive than Terminator
Termingaunts cost as much as Guard and Hormagaunts one point more Squads are 10 to 30 and Termigaunts can have weapon upgrade for each 10 one can have a Strangleweb which is a Template wounds against opponents S

Any thing else Please ask cannot put Points up

[Vepr]

Any army wide rules that we missed out on in the leaked copy? Also is the pyrovore the same as rumored? Does the Mawloc attack ignore cover? Do you roll one dice per wound on regen or just one dice per turn?

Thank you.

[TheBitzBarn]

Well There is
Synapse Creature- and not in you are subject to Instintive behavior either Feed or Lurk and if you are in They you have USR of FEARLESS
Shadows of the Warp - all Psychic test with in 12" or with Shadow in the Ward Special Rule rules test on 3d6 and takes Perils on double 1 or double 6
Those are Army wide rules

Tyrant has 4 Psychic Powers
Horror - non vehicle 12" immediate Morale test Fearless not effected
Leech Essence - shooting 12" non Vehicle target takes S3 d3 AP2 Hits and each wounds restores wound to Tyrant no
more than starting
Paroxysm - 12' Shooting non Vehicle reduces WS and BS to 1 tull next turn
Scream - all non Vehicle with in 2d6 of tryant hit take LD test failed take wounds equal to amount failed by LD 7 rolls 9 take
2 wounds

Plus New unit of Harpy a MC with wings

[Vepr]

Well There is
Synapse Creature- and not in you are subject to Instintive behavior either Feed or Lurk and if you are in They you have USR of FEARLESS
Shadows of the Warp - all Psychic test with in 21" or with Shadow in the Ward Special Rule rules test on 3d6 and takes Perils on double 1 or double 6
Those are Army wide rules

Tyrant has 4 Psychic Powers
Horror - non vehicle 12" immediate Morale test Fearless not effected
Leech Essence - shooting 12" non Vehicle target takes S3 d3 AP2 Hits and each wounds restores wound to Tyrant no
more than starting
Paroxysm - 12' Shooting non Vehicle reduces WS and BS to 1 tull next turn
Scream - all non Vehicle with in 2d6 of tryant hit take LD test failed take wounds equal to amount failed by LD 7 rolls 9 take
2 wounds

Plus New unit of Harpy a MC with wings

Shadow in the warp is 21 and not 12? :eek:

[TheBitzBarn]

Not sure i tend to ignore Rumors

Pyrovore - S4 T4 Sv 4+ Flamespurt Template S5 AP4 A1, Acid Maw CC attacks ignore Armor and a wound that is Instant Death roll d6 on 4+ explodes and all models with in d6 take S3 AP- Hit

Mawloc Burrow does not say ignores cover but it is a Close Combat attack so no Cover anyway

Not sure what you mean by regen

[TheBitzBarn]

No typo 12"

[Vepr]

Not sure i tend to ignore Rumors

Pyrovore - S4 T4 Sv 4+ Flamespurt Template S5 AP4 A1, Acid Maw CC attacks ignore Armor and a wound that is Instant Death roll d6 on 4+ explodes and all models with in d6 take S3 AP- Hit

Mawloc Burrow does not say ignores cover but it is a Close Combat attack so no Cover anyway

Not sure what you mean by regen

Sorry I meant regeneration. I think the Carnifex, Tyrant, Alpha warrior and a few other MC's have it.

[Vepr]

No typo 12"

You got me all excited there for a second. lol :)

[Vepr]

Not sure i tend to ignore Rumors

Pyrovore - S4 T4 Sv 4+ Flamespurt Template S5 AP4 A1, Acid Maw CC attacks ignore Armor and a wound that is Instant Death roll d6 on 4+ explodes and all models with in d6 take S3 AP- Hit

Mawloc Burrow does not say ignores cover but it is a Close Combat attack so no Cover anyway

Not sure what you mean by regen

The reason I asked about the Mawloc attack is because it has an AP listed which I thought meant it was treated like a blast or shooting attack. If it is listed as CC that settles that. Thanks.

[TheBitzBarn]

Regeneration is rolled at the Start of The Bug Player's Turn IF THE MODEL IS STILL ALIVE and for each wound you took roll 1d6 and on a 6 that wound is restored and cost a quater for the Fex making in More expensive then all but 1 Leman Russ

Tryant, Tervigon, Carnifex, Tyrandi Prime, Harpy, and Trygon, Mawloc and Tyrannofex all can get it

[TheBitzBarn]

The Mawloc attack list an AP but it does not say it is Shooting. You place a Template when the Mawloc comes up from and each model under or partial under takes a S6 AP2 Wound So this is a Grey Area I would say no Cover Save because the Ground is Dropping out from Under you but they did not clear i up Dumb Butts

What do we expect a Flawless codex heck No

[rle68]

The Mawloc attack list an AP but it does not say it is Shooting. You place a Template when the Mawloc comes up from and each model under or partial under takes a S6 AP2 Wound So this is a Grey Area I would say no Cover Save because the Ground is Dropping out from Under you but they did not clear i up Dumb Butts

What do we expect a Flawless codex heck No

under the rules as written the template does not say ignores cover saves so you would indeed recieve a cover save.. unless it is a flame template then no you woudlnt

[TheBitzBarn]

I understand what you are saying but this Attack is an attack form Under the Ground and you a falling into the Mawloc pits. So this is a casue of we wait 5 months for FAQ

[jspyd3rx]

Are you serious about carnifex being T4? Also, can the Trygon prime be an HQ?

[rle68]

I understand what you are saying but this Attack is an attack form Under the Ground and you a falling into the Mawloc pits. So this is a casue of we wait 5 months for FAQ


i understand what your saying as well.... but the effect of the attack is a large blast template and the rules for blast templates have been established .. however you are probably correct that they will change it somehow in an faq5 months from now but in the mean time id make "you" play it as written for blast templates.. just food for thought

[jspyd3rx]

The way it was portrayed in the Batrep in white dwarf, I say an assault attack.

[TheBitzBarn]

Sorry Typo Fex is T6 and W4 and Tyrannid Prime is HQ and Trygon Prime is an Upgrade of Trygon

Plus

Mycetic Spores are dedicated Transports
Purchased as an upgrade to another brood, but they are always treated as a Separate, non-scoring unit

[The.Justinian]

Thank you for confirming for us that the translation from the leaked german appears to be correct. Further, the confirmation on the cost of the Carnifex is a puzzlement--How many wounds does it have again?

The english names for these weapons sound pretty neat, a good improvement over what they were being translated as.

Really, this is nothing new, but it is good to know the five or so test games our group has played were with correct rules/stats.. What we we're chomping at--wondering about--We're down to real syntax in the way that these weapons are explained in their mechanic, something that you couldn't post legally, and since you're an RAI guy something you're unlikely to want to delve into. So I won't ask.

Stores are promising to have their preview copies tomorrow, and for those with a (F)LGS Guy we'll get to sit down and have a real look

[Alrik_40000]

Is the Trygon Alpha an HQ choice or still heavy support?

[TheBitzBarn]

I am not a RAI or RAW guy I just Thing GW makes us choose a camp and sometimes they fail in the testing.

There is NO TRYGON ALPHA it is a Trygon PRIME and it is a Heavy.

[S0ULDU5T]

Are ripper swarms fleet?

Are toxin sacs really 4+ poison?

Lash whips - initiative 1 in base contact or only if your attacking a model with a lash whip?

can I get a confirmed point cost for toxin sacs for hormoguants?

Also, my two cents on the Mawloc cover save - the cover is essentially whats killing you as it's ripped from underneath you or slammed into you as the mawloc arrvies, I think that logicly you would not get a cover from the cover thats assisting in your death.

[HsojVvad]

I am still new to the rules. Here is a question that releates to the Mawloc DS attack. If a SM fires a missles or a tank fires a shot and it's a blast weapon, do the defenders get a cover save from them? If they don't then it would apply to the Mawloc since it's a blast template attack. It goes both ways.

If you get a cover save from a missle blast attack or a tank blast attack then you get a cover save from the Mawloc. If yo udon't get a cover save from missle and tank blasts then no save for the Mawloc either.

Then again, I am still new to the rules, and don't have the Tyranid codex so I can't say for shure, only going by what I read in the rumours.

[Helpsy]

Well its a bit tricky. If a unit was behind cover they would get a cover save from the blast of a Leman Russ. However, whether you gain a cover save or not is determined by drawing LOS between the firer and the target. However as the Mawloc appears directly under the target there is no LOS (so no cover save possible).

The barrage rules grant a cover save if there is cover between the hole of the template and the model. However, if the rule doesn't specify that it is a barrage attack then it can't be played as such (though this would probably make the most sense).

[Deej]

Pretty depressed that "Tyrannofex" wasn't just a crap German name :/

[TheBitzBarn]

Are you serious about carnifex being T4? Also, can the Trygon prime be an HQ?

Fex is T6 that was a typo, Tyrgon is Heavy only


Are ripper swarms fleet?

Are toxin sacs really 4+ poison?

Lash whips - initiative 1 in base contact or only if your attacking a model with a lash whip?

can I get a confirmed point cost for toxin sacs for hormoguants?

Also, my two cents on the Mawloc cover save - the cover is essentially whats killing you as it's ripped from underneath you or slammed into you as the mawloc arrvies, I think that logicly you would not get a cover from the cover thats assisting in your death.

Rippers are not fleet, Toxin sacs are Poison, Lash whips are correct I1 in Base, Toxin Sacs are 33% of the base cost of a Hormoguant. Hope that answer the Questions

[nidz]

ok do we still have move through cover rule universal where we all roll 3d6 to move through cover, do hormagautns still counts as beast or no, and do they still have the ability to move 6 run 6 and assault 12 or has that changed also.

[TheBitzBarn]

ok do we still have move through cover rule universal where we all roll 3d6 to move through cover, do hormagautns still counts as beat or no, and do they still have the ability to move 6 run 6 and assault 12 or has that changed also.

Guants and Genestealers have Fleet and Move thru Cover. Hormoguants have Bounding leap which is when you run roll 3 and choose highest

P.S. Check your spelling some people will give you heck about it

[mercer]

What would you say is best, a trygon or mawloc?

I know you cannot list exact prices, but can you compare the wings points price for the hive tyrant to another piece of wargear.

How much are ravenors and spore pods? Do spore pods act like drop pods?

[Ferro]

Raveners are 3/4 of a Terminator.
Drop Spores cost the same as a Termie, but can puchase gun upgrades. They work exactly like Drop Pods for deployment, except these are a 3 Wound Monstrous Creature. They can be shot to death pretty easily, but any enemy who assaults a Landing Spore is in for a nasty surprise. All in all, they're awesome.

Hormagaunts are not Beasts. They only assault 6". But they are Quick: for run distance roll 3d6 and pick the highest. Still pretty good.

There is no WoN in the codex. Tervigons however... statistcally poop out 29 gaunts/game. Last night my two Tervigons pooped out about 65 gaunts. I ran out of models.

[S0ULDU5T]

Well crap, how are rippers supposed to catch up and screen the army? In the old fluff, they were always in the forefront of the army but couldn't really tacticly do so becuase they would hold up anyone foot slogging it.

[The.Justinian]

Fact: nothing ignores cover saves except assault, flamers, Sternguard ammo, colossi, and LREs. Each of these has its own explicit sentence stating thus. All three have an explicit rule that states they ignore cover.

Question: Are there cover saves vs. vehicle explosions? I ask this because they happen at exceptional moments, and aren't shooting attacks. We recieve no explicit rule that they ignore cover. If you insist on imagining how this would work, imagine the men diving behind rocks or a tree just before the vehicle blows up. Usually it takes a while for the ammo to cook off spectacularly. In my gaming microverse, this makes sense for both reasons.

Thus, the argument I make is that the omission of a rule, unless the game were to cease functioning altogether, is a rule itself in the negative. So, if you have cover relative to the center of the mawloc template, you save. This is how all other non-LRE, non-Colossus large templates work, and we have no reason to think this one is different--in the explicit RULES text (not the part where we merely imagine a giant bug bursting from the earth) we are told to place a template, roll to wound, and roll saves (it's AP2 so we go to the cover save as we would at any other time).

Need some analogy to wrap your head around it? well, if there are gnarled tree roots under the ground in the wood, the tremors of the mawloc can be felt sooner, wood shattering etc, and the men have a chance to dive away (ie, a cover save.) The same goes for ruins; a few bricks fall, the troopers have seen the movie, 'Tremors,' and decide they don't want to be an extra. Then when the hole opens, in the case of woods, vines are dangling down into the hole and men have a chance to grab on and get pulled out by comrades.

My point is, there's no more inherent logic in my analogy than any of the above posted. Since we can imagine just about anything happening to our little army men, when we play with other people we have to put the brakes on imagination a bit and play by the rules. When there's a lack of a rule, we have to assume that means it's on purpose--in every other case where a rule is excepted, the writers go out of their way to tell us.

From a non-abstract point of argument, I always seek to explain why the rules are right, because without rules, the game breaks. We can't use real-world analogies to explain these things...it's space fantasy. Call me a rules lawyer, I welcome that...it implies we'll reach a verdict by examining the text. But if we don't go to court, we'll be arguing over analogies about why and why not all night, or roll a die to see who is right...something that men gave up when they turned away from being guided by oracles and stick-casters a thousand years ago.

[HsojVvad]

Well the way I see it, if there is a cover save, the people could be like in movies jumping on the tree or big rock and as the rock is moving they are on the rock like a surf board getting back down to the grown. The ones who fail the cover save either fall of the rock tree or what not, or never made onto it in the first place.

[Vepr]

Do spore mines still move randomly or do we get to move them as we want now? I did not see anything in the leak that said they moved randomly.

[The.Justinian]

I am still new to the rules. Here is a question that releates to the Mawloc DS attack. If a SM fires a missles or a tank fires a shot and it's a blast weapon, do the defenders get a cover save from them? If they don't then it would apply to the Mawloc since it's a blast template attack. It goes both ways.

If you get a cover save from a missle blast attack or a tank blast attack then you get a cover save from the Mawloc. If yo udon't get a cover save from missle and tank blasts then no save for the Mawloc either.

Then again, I am still new to the rules, and don't have the Tyranid codex so I can't say for sure, only going by what I read in the rumours.

If you have cover between you and your foe, you always get a save (except w/flamers, sterguard, LRE, Colossi)--even if the template center lands over your hedge. In the case of missile launchers, this can be imagined as the shell hitting a tree instead of you, the cone of shrapnel being obstructed vis-a-vis you, etc.

There is another exception which I missed earlier that may be relevant to the discussion, actually. Barrage weapons (Guard artillery mostly, like mortars, also the biovore) only grant cover if the target has cover relative to the center of the template or is in area terrain. The premise is that the shot plunges in from above, bypassing fire. Since the mawloc isn't shooting from anywhere but where he's about to be, (in rules terms, the fire line does not cross NOE as in the case of barrage) there's a case to be made that only cover between you and the template center matters, or area terrain.

[S0ULDU5T]

Does the poison that toxin sacs grants wound on a 4+ as the "translated" codex suggests or just the standard 6+?

[TheBitzBarn]

Do spore mines still move randomly or do we get to move them as we want now? I did not see anything in the leak that said they moved randomly.


They still move Random except if a Hit is rolled you choose direction and move d6"

[Ferro]

Does the poison that toxin sacs grants wound on a 4+ as the "translated" codex suggests or just the standard 6+?

Actually, standard is 4+. Anyway, Toxin Sacs grant 4+ poison in the new codex.


They still move Random except if a Hit is rolled you choose direction and move d6"
With a new twist: they don't drift as a cluster anymore. The mines arrive as a cluster (in B2B with each other) but in subsequent movement phases it says to treat each Model as an individual unit. Thus, they separate, spreading out randomly.

[Vepr]

Actually, standard is 4+. Anyway, Toxin Sacs grant 4+ poison in the new codex.


With a new twist: they don't drift as a cluster anymore. The mines arrive as a cluster (in B2B with each other) but in subsequent movement phases it says to treat each Model as an individual unit. Thus, they separate, spreading out randomly.

Unfortunately don't they blow up if they bump into each other or impassable terrain?

[S0ULDU5T]

Actually, standard is 4+. Anyway, Toxin Sacs grant 4+ poison in the new codex.



awesome, I could kiss ya! I'm sure this is in the BRB then but I don't have it handy and just need to confirm before my head explodes, but the poison roll is on the roll to hit right?

[Caldera02]

no you roll to hit as normal and posion(4+) allows you to wound any model with a toughness value on 4+ no matter what thier value is(I.E. hormagaunt str is 3 vs toughness 2, wound on 4+....Hormie vs wraithlord, still 4+.) Against same toughness or lower it allows for a re-roll to wound.

[S0ULDU5T]

(EDIT) nevermind, dumb question, sorry for trolling :)

[Ferro]

Unfortunately don't they blow up if they bump into each other or impassable terrain?

Not quite right. They blow up if they 1) touch an enemy, 2) touch impassible terrain, 3) lose a wound, or 4) end their drift within 2" of enemy.

If they touch a friendly model, or drift off the table edge, they are simply removed without exploding.
Ref. German codex p48, Lebende Bombe (Living Bombs)

[TheBitzBarn]

The English Codex is exactly the same

[S0ULDU5T]

Can we get confirmation that you can't actually get extra attacks with additional hand weapons and things?

[Ferro]

Consider that confirmed.

[xanthaous]

no you roll to hit as normal and posion(4+) allows you to wound any model with a toughness value on 4+ no matter what thier value is(I.E. hormagaunt str is 3 vs toughness 2, wound on 4+....Hormie vs wraithlord, still 4+.) Against same toughness or lower it allows for a re-roll to wound.

This makes them awesome for genestealers since there is hardly anything with a toughness of 2 or less, and a rerolled 4+ is better than a 3+ (75% vs 66%) and increases your chance to roll 6's.

[S0ULDU5T]

Sucks for hormoguants though, and only good for termaguants if it's free becuase of a Tervigon. Lets not even start on Rippers. If anyone can't tell by some of my questions I'm trying really hard to like rippers just becuase I have an irrational love for the models.

On Genestealers it's nice but makes a fragile unit worth even more points to the enemy, and it is nice on Warriors, I imagine generally nice on MCs if the price is right.

I was just really hoping to find something to make our infantry not suck so much. 6 pts for a hormoguant is crazy compared to an orc boy being 6 pts considering the differences.

[DarkLink]

This makes them awesome for genestealers since there is hardly anything with a toughness of 2 or less, and a rerolled 4+ is better than a 3+ (75% vs 66%) and increases your chance to roll 6's.

They get the rerolls for the lower toughnesses, too.

Hitting T2, they wound ~97% of the time. (rerollable 2+)

Hitting T3, they wound ~88% of the time. (rerollable 3+)

Hitting T4, they wound ~75% of the time. (rerollable 4+)

Hitting T5+, they wound 50% of the time. (4+)

[S0ULDU5T]

But the price of a genestealer with a toxin sac is mroe expensive than a SM, and if that SM has a pistol then has the same number of attacks. Basicly, no matter how many wounds you get, they're saving on a 3+ and we're saving on a 5+ and when we die we lose more points per model.

I'm not really whining I guess, they are two different factions and we all can't play different looking space marines but the new tyranid book does seem like a kick in the nuts thats hard to recover from.

[Drakkan Vael]

They get the rerolls for the lower toughnesses, too.

Hitting T2, they wound ~97% of the time. (rerollable 2+)

Hitting T3, they wound ~88% of the time. (rerollable 3+)

Hitting T4, they wound ~75% of the time. (rerollable 4+)

Hitting T5+, they wound 50% of the time. (4+)

That is not true. Poison attacks wound always on 4+ regardless of the toughness. So you hit T2 on 4+ and T8 as well. You can confirm this in the BRB.

[DarkLink]

But the price of a genestealer with a toxin sac is mroe expensive than a SM, and if that SM has a pistol then has the same number of attacks. Basicly, no matter how many wounds you get, they're saving on a 3+ and we're saving on a 5+ and when we die we lose more points per model.


Are you really trying to say that Space Marines are better in CC than genestealers?

Space Marines shoot genestealers to death, and genestealers slaughter Space Marines in combat. If a Space Marines kills a genestealer, it's because of his bolter, probably not because of his bolt pistol.


That is not true. Poison attacks wound always on 4+ regardless of the toughness. So you hit T2 on 4+ and T8 as well. You can confirm this in the BRB.

Oh, wait, oops. Yeah, you hit T2 on a 4+ with re-rolls. My bad. So you hit T4 and below 75% of the the time, and T5+ 50% of the time.

[S0ULDU5T]

Are you really trying to say that Space Marines are better in CC than genestealers?

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.

Now you throw in that a hormoguant can't hold a candle to an orc boy since they too have a ranged weapon, furious charge, an extra attack, mob rule and T4 for the same point cost and what you get is that our infantry sucks.

The way I see it, the Tyranid army will be built around mediums and MC's with hardly any consideration given to the swarm idea outside of termagaunts for the obvious connects to Tervigons just becuase anything that can swarm seems like a horrible point sink.

Can anyone confirm as to wither the swarmlord has a regenerate option?

[Ferro]

Swarmlord does not have regen. He is a fixed statline unique character with no upgrade options. However, he does come standard with all 4 Tyrant psychic powers, one of which is a life-leaching shooting attack with a 12" range.

He is quite powerful, but equally expensive. If only he could live to make contact with the enemy, the day would be his.

[S0ULDU5T]

Swarmlord does not have regen. He is a fixed statline unique character with no upgrade options. However, he does come standard with all 4 Tyrant psychic powers, one of which is a life-leaching shooting attack with a 12" range.

He is quite powerful, but equally expensive. If only he could live to make contact with the enemy, the day would be his.

really, that hard to keep alive even with soaking up wounds with that power and sticking to cover?

[Raxximous]

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.

Now you throw in that a hormoguant can't hold a candle to an orc boy since they too have a ranged weapon, furious charge, an extra attack, mob rule and T4 for the same point cost and what you get is that our infantry sucks.

The way I see it, the Tyranid army will be built around mediums and MC's with hardly any consideration given to the swarm idea outside of termagaunts for the obvious connects to Tervigons just becuase anything that can swarm seems like a horrible point sink.

Can anyone confirm as to wither the swarmlord has a regenerate option?

Rending ignores armor, and with rerollable attacks chances are you will get a fine amount of rending. So the armor isn't really too big an issue.

At least from my experience.

[Vepr]

Our troops are still cannon fodder. That is just the way it is, the only thing that bothers me is that supporting our troops is still suicide for the medium and big bugs in synapse due to the fearless rules.

I don't think this dex is going to be as point and click as some of the other 5ed codices but it is not like it is a terrible dex it just has some internal balance issues. After running a bunch of test games though SW and IG seem like they might be an uphill battle. More test games needed. :)

[DarkLink]

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.


If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

[S0ULDU5T]

If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

Point taken. For the sake the curiosity, what are the numbers without toxin sacs? the question now becomes wither it's really worth equipping genestealers with them since it is kinda of an expensive upgrade.

[Deej]

If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

Really great in depth analysis... But there's only one 'o' in losing :)

[DarkLink]

Point taken. For the sake the curiosity, what are the numbers without toxin sacs? the question now becomes wither it's really worth equipping genestealers with them since it is kinda of an expensive upgrade.

Let's see...
Genestealers get 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.333 of which are rends, so a total of 5.5555 dead Marines.

Normal Marines get 2.222 hits back, 1.111 wounds and kill .74 genestealers. Powerfist hits once, and kills another .8333 genestealers, for a total of about 1.6 dead genestealers.

Marines lose combat by 4, so they probably still run, and another might die.

Interestingly enough, this might be better for the genestealers. Only slightly more genestealers die, but they will be in combat for two rounds instead of only one, leaving them protected from enemy shooting.

So ultimately, I'd have to say that, considering the metagame, it's actually now better to leave off the poison, since it will leave the genestealers protected in CC during the next enemy shooting phase. Not to mention the genestealers are cheaper that way.

So against Tactical Marines, leave off the poison and save the points for elsewhere.


Really great in depth analysis... But there's only one 'o' in losing :)

Everyone has to have a flaw :D

[S0ULDU5T]

Ok, follow up question. What are the odds in the second round of combat? Genestealers lose an attack each as well as the attacks from the probable two dead genestealers. At what point does the squad of Sm start to turn the tide, if ever?

[DarkLink]

With 8.4 genestealers left...
That's 16.8 attacks, 5.6 wounds with 1.87 rends, and 1.24 failed saves. 3.1 dead Marines. So there'd be one or two Marines left after a round of combat.

What is the max squad size for genestealers? If you could get, say, 12 naked genestealers in a squad, that'd probably produce an extra dead Marine or two, enough to ensure the combat ends on the second round.

[xanthaous]

What is the squad size for genestealers? I Know they use to be 12, but I read somewhere they are now 20.

[Ferro]

Yeah, Genestealers are 5-20. One of them becomes a Broodlord if you wish to make the upgrade. 20 infiltrating/outflanking stealers is sick.

[Madjob]

Took a look at the english codex today as well.

One thing that stood out to me was that the early translations of the german codex neglected to mention that the "Where is it?" rule on Death Leaper HALVES the night-fight distance any unit attempting to shoot it must roll.

While I had been envious of his special rules before, I still felt he suffered too greatly from the same weakness as regular lictors - that single round of shooting your opponent will get on him once he appears, even if they had to test for night fighting.

However, with a halved distance on top of that, it completely turns things around - the maximum range an opponent can roll to see him is within his fleet range, meaning you can set him up at a middling range (13-14" depending on how cautious you want to be) and safely expect them to roll under that in their attempts to fire on you, then fleet assault them.

This may be the first special character I've ever included in an army list, as not only is he good for his points, he's everything Lictors should be and more. I can't resist taking him simply out of a love of the sneaky little monsters themselves.

[Vepr]

Took a look at the english codex today as well.

One thing that stood out to me was that the early translations of the german codex neglected to mention that the "Where is it?" rule on Death Leaper HALVES the night-fight distance any unit attempting to shoot it must roll.

While I had been envious of his special rules before, I still felt he suffered too greatly from the same weakness as regular lictors - that single round of shooting your opponent will get on him once he appears, even if they had to test for night fighting.

However, with a halved distance on top of that, it completely turns things around - the maximum range an opponent can roll to see him is within his fleet range, meaning you can set him up at a middling range (13-14" depending on how cautious you want to be) and safely expect them to roll under that in their attempts to fire on you, then fleet assault them.

This may be the first special character I've ever included in an army list, as not only is he good for his points, he's everything Lictors should be and more. I can't resist taking him simply out of a love of the sneaky little monsters themselves.

I agree. I am quickly developing a man crush on the Death Leaper after play testing him. :D

[david5th]

Got my codex in the post today. As an Ultramarine / Imperial guard player i can truly say that

ITS TERRIHYING SCARY!!!

Tervigon, Harpy & Venomthrope all spell bad news for the 40K universe.

[Vepr]

Got my codex in the post today. As an Ultramarine / Imperial guard player i can truly say that

ITS TERRIHYING SCARY!!!

Tervigon, Harpy & Venomthrope all spell bad news for the 40K universe.

They Harpy seems like one of the last things to be afraid of in my opinion. The tervigon is going to be a pain for other players but I don't see the spam working like others envision. I don't plan on taking more than two Tervigons. I am still trying to figure out venomthropes in play testing. They can actually be nasty if you can keep them alive. I have been hiding them behind other MC's. A tyrant with a few guard backed up with a venomthrope using them is cover is a nasty combo.

I am still trying to decide if I like the new dex. There seem to be some weird internal balance issues. Nids have changed so much it is like playing a different army. After about 15 test games ranging from 1000 points up to 2000 I am a bit worried about IG and SW. SW seem to have an answer for everything Tyranid and IG can bring down an obscene amount of firepower.

[HsojVvad]

Got my codex in the post today. As an Ultramarine / Imperial guard player i can truly say that

ITS TERRIHYING SCARY!!!

Tervigon, Harpy & Venomthrope all spell bad news for the 40K universe.

I was going to say lucky you, but seeing as you are not a 'Nid player Ptttppppttttttt! :D Just kidding, lucky you got it early. But seeing you are an UM/IG player you have the weapons and manpower to take them out. So how come you so worried about them?

[david5th]

Problem will be the manpower vs firepower equation. Too much of one and not enough of the other and i've found out against horde armies that your deadmeat.

Like everything in life it's a question of balance.

[Commander_Culln]

Regeneration is rolled at the Start of The Bug Player's Turn IF THE MODEL IS STILL ALIVE and for each wound you took roll 1d6 and on a 6 that wound is restored and cost a quater for the Fex making in More expensive then all but 1 Leman Russ

Tryant, Tervigon, Carnifex, Tyrandi Prime, Harpy, and Trygon, Mawloc and Tyrannofex all can get it

I am quite surprised that the hive tyrant/swarmlord can't have it...
I just got the codex today and i'm lovin it!

[Caldera02]

Tyrants can have regen

[Commander_Culln]

Tyrants can have regen

Ah yes... (note to self, read codex properly next time before posting!)

[Deej]

A bit OT - is there anywhere in London willing to sell it before the street date?

[nidz]

ok ive sat down and read the codex since last friday, it seems that gw took away alot of options on certain troops, removed move through cover as a universal rule gave it to certain troops, and also seems they got rid of frag grenades on most guys, it seems that gw made this codex a lil strange considering if u take a termagaunt squad u can then take a tervigon which is a monsterous creature hq choice, as a troop choice then, the tervigon is the one that makes the termagaunt babies also, so that seemed rather weird to me, but im curious what you all think of this so far.

[pelmen78]

I like it. Six wound MC troop choice with regen? Yes, please. Oh, you mean it can also spit out troop choices as well? That's swell. Sure it can't spit them out more than once or twice, but if you wait until turn 4 or 5, that's game over, assuming it hasn't been killed. The only nerf is the lack of eternal warrior, but I'm okay with that, to be honest. Little bugs dropped in price, big bugs got more expensive, that's about a wash. Stealers became awesome, no matter which way you take them.

As far as the move thru cover dealio, Monstrous Creatures come with it by virtue of being Monstrous Creatures, and the little assaulty guys come with it, so that's a-okay by me.

It appears that Spore Pods can assault, RAW-wise. While I don't think that is intended, it will be fun until they FAQ it.

Shooting is still good. Armor 10 and 11 will fear devourer with brainleech worms.

[Madjob]

It appears that Spore Pods can assault, RAW-wise. While I don't think that is intended, it will be fun until they FAQ it.

Take a closer look at their Immobile rule. They can't move under any circumstances. This doesn't stop enemies from assaulting it, however, and it can fight back in an assault, it just can't consolidate or sweep if it wins.

On another note, boy did the Tyrant Guard get useless. At first I thought they had been nerfed to only provide the Tyrant protection from shooting. Upon closer inspection, since the Tyrant joins the unit as an Independent Character but does not lose his status as a Monstrous Creature attached to a squad that isn't composed of Monstrous Creatures, he can still be singled out by shooting attacks.

So what is the point of them now? To help out in CC a little bit? To go crazy when they fail to do exactly what they were engineered to do?

[Crotch Lictor]

For those in the Austin area, Rogue's Gallery in Round Rock is supposed to get their new nids and codex shipment in today. They've already sold the store preview copy, and I just bought the Trygon model in the box that they had for Demo. Not sure if anywhere else is selling today or not.

Also, in regards to the TG nerf listed above, I assume that means the retinue status is gone?

Scratch the Rogue's Gallery thing. Their shipment was delayed. Should be 1/15 now.

[Cyberscape7]

I know broodlord is unit upgrade but on GW website it says alternative HQ choice. Does that mean that the actual model can be used as a different HQ or not?

[HsojVvad]

If I am understanding the rule for the Tyrant Guards, the Hive Tyrand can join the HG 'as if he was an IC' but since he is not an IC he can't be picked off in shooting or CC. The wounds will spread.

Please tell me or show me where it says the HT is an IC. Since he is not an IC he can't be picked out in CC. He just joins a group of HG as if he was an IC. And since he is not an IC he can't join anyother group. So the only thing that the HT is like to an IC is that he can join the HG but that's it. Now that he is in a squad or brood with different stats, the wounds can be allocated to the HG if the player wishes.

Please bear with me, I am still learning the rules as a newbie, but this is the way I read it in the 5th edtion rules, so if I made a mistake please tell me the page number so I can reread the rules again.

[nidz]

the zoanthropes have a 3 up invul save.

[EvilEd209]

I love the new codex to be honest. But my major complaint, outside of the Zoanthropes and the Uber expensive Swarmlord, there isn't an invulnerable save to be found in the codex. Sure, you can take regen, but that is a gamble, only on a 6 do you get a wound back. It could be points wasted. I would have been happy with a 5+ on the Tyrants. But with NO option at all for it seems a bit too much nerfing to me.

What do you guys think?

[Ferro]

@Hsoj: that's my reading of the rule too, but it's still open to other interpretations. If we're right, the only significant consequence of a Tyrant joining Guards is that he loses his Move Through Cover, but w/e.

[EvilEd209]

Right, so like I said, outside of the Zoanthropes and he Swarmlord who gets in in H2H only, where are they? AP2 and 3 Weapons will murder this army. Thankfully they are few in numbers. For now.

[pelmen78]

Take a closer look at their Immobile rule. They can't move under any circumstances. This doesn't stop enemies from assaulting it, however, and it can fight back in an assault, it just can't consolidate or sweep if it wins.

On another note, boy did the Tyrant Guard get useless. At first I thought they had been nerfed to only provide the Tyrant protection from shooting. Upon closer inspection, since the Tyrant joins the unit as an Independent Character but does not lose his status as a Monstrous Creature attached to a squad that isn't composed of Monstrous Creatures, he can still be singled out by shooting attacks.

So what is the point of them now? To help out in CC a little bit? To go crazy when they fail to do exactly what they were engineered to do?

I totally meant Spore Mines, not Spore Pods, my bad. Clearly the drop pod thingies can't assault. The mines otoh.....

[HsojVvad]

Still waitnig for my codex, but from what I read, it looks like Spore mines can run and assault from what I have been reading on the net.

Some people are saying it's an oversite GW forgot to put in there. The way i see it, GW never ever admits an oversite, so if it is not in the book, then Spore Mines can either run, or assault. And if it Assaults, it's a straight 6" no die roll needed :p

[Drakkan Vael]

Right, so like I said, outside of the Zoanthropes and he Swarmlord who gets in in H2H only, where are they? AP2 and 3 Weapons will murder this army. Thankfully they are few in numbers. For now.

That's would be true for all armies, except it's not. (There are a lot of things that can defeat tyranids out there. I don't count low AP-weapons among them)

And the Doom of Malantai for example does have an invul save as well.

The Broodlord is only a unit upgrade. Not an HQ choice.

Spore pods can fight in an assault, just not initiate close combat as they are immobile and cannot - of their own volition - move into contact with an enemy. They can fight back - and not too bad at that.

Spore mines cannot assault anything, as they have no attack profile and only move in the movement phase.

[HsojVvad]

Spore mines cannot assault anything, as they have no attack profile and only move in the movement phase.

Hmmm, if they have no profile then maybe they can't assault.

[nidz]

spore mines do not assault or run they only move during the tyranid players movemetn and u roll a scatter dice and one d6 to decide where it goes.

[Ferro]

What do you mean they don't have an attack profile? The stats are zeros or ones, and they have no save at all, but that is a profile.

It's just an absolutely terrible profile.

Seems to me they can assault, which they will promptly lose, and when they lose a wound they pop.

[nidz]

the reason they cant assault is casue htey have a rule called living bomb which states taht htey only move during the tyranid movement phase that is all, they have no stat lines at all adn they have no mind at all, so they just float around adn explode if they get shot at.

[pelmen78]

I started a thread in the rules forum about spore mines, didn't mean to derail this thread. Since Tyranids are about to be officially published and not rumors, prolly better to post there.

[nidz]

they can not assault cause htey do can not move, they have a rule for living bomb where they only move during teh movement phase and they are mindless so they can not assault anything. also they can not assault cause they dont have a WS, adn htey cant run cause htey dont have a base movement.

[Plucky]

What do you mean they don't have an attack profile? The stats are zeros or ones, and they have no save at all, but that is a profile.

It's just an absolutely terrible profile.

Seems to me they can assault, which they will promptly lose, and when they lose a wound they pop.


their profile is ws, bs, sv, a, at - and then str, t, w, a, i,ld at 1

[shadowtyrant]

they can not assault cause htey do can not move, they have a rule for living bomb where they only move during teh movement phase and they are mindless so they can not assault anything. also they can not assault cause they dont have a WS, adn htey cant run cause htey dont have a base movement.

I don't try to offend you NIDZ, but you sound like you have never actually seen the dex...

mines can not run, because it is explicitely stated in the living bomb rule, that they can not.

Besides that the LB rule says that mines have this random movement in the movementphase, but it does NOT say that this is the only movement for them (it does not state that the mines may not make an assault move!)

It is not said that they cannot attack due to a lack of intelligence or something (this was in the old dex, i guess).

BUT i think they can not attack because their WS and A is - (like NIDZ said).
There are people that say they can; it all depends on how you read the "Zero-Level characteristics" part on page 7 of the book.

[HsojVvad]

I was going to reply to you shadowtyrant but go to the rules section and we can discuss it there. Lets leave this for rumours till tomorrow, when I guess this thread will be locked.

[Deej]

The codex also doesn't explicitly state that spore mines can rise up on the roll of a 4+, soar above the battelfield, explode and rain down a torrent of angry kittens onto your enemy causing instant win of the game.

It's amazing the kind of stuff people will try and get away with!

[gcsmith]

really deej? assult comes as standard to all infantry, unless otherwise stated. flying kittens doesnt. As such unless saying they cannot assult then they can assult.