Void Shields and hits.

[Harley]

Before an event I was wondering if someone could clear up a big rules ambiguity that is sure to come up; Void Shields.

The pertinant questions are:

1. If a Blast weapon fires at a squad in a Void Shield and "hits" 5 models, does it get 5 hits on the Shield as opposed to just one hit if it were fired at a single model within a Void Shield? For example, a Battle Cannon which "hit" 10 Genestealers would have a better chance to collapse the Void Shield protecting them than if it "hit" a single Hive Tyrant? This seems like a slippery slope.

2. Which leads us to, if Question 1 is true, and the VS collapses from an initial hit, do hits from the SAME blast carry over to it's original target after the collapse? Or, such as with hitting Transport Vehicles, all "hits" from the same unit resolved simultaneously against it's target and cannot then continue to hit disembarked passengers from a destroyed Transport.

3. Do projected Void Shields ever get to make cover saves? Do Void Shields which sheeth a fortification ever get to make cover saves?

4. How is distance, for the allowable 12" Shield bubble determined in cases such as Torrent flamers, Barrage blasts, and odd weapons like Imotek's ligntning which comes from the sky?

[Nabterayl]

Before an event I was wondering if someone could clear up a big rules ambiguity that is sure to come up; Void Shields.

The pertinant questions are:

1. If a Blast weapon fires at a squad in a Void Shield and "hits" 5 models, does it get 5 hits on the Shield as opposed to just one hit if it were fired at a single model within a Void Shield? For example, a Battle Cannon which "hit" 10 Genestealers would have a better chance to collapse the Void Shield protecting them than if it "hit" a single Hive Tyrant? This seems like a slippery slope.
It wouldn't hit 5 models at all. The void shield rules state that an attack hits the void shield instead of of the "target," and the target of the attack is not the models - it's the unit. So it only scores one hit.


2. Which leads us to, if Question 1 is true, and the VS collapses from an initial hit, do hits from the SAME blast carry over to it's original target after the collapse? Or, such as with hitting Transport Vehicles, all "hits" from the same unit resolved simultaneously against it's target and cannot then continue to hit disembarked passengers from a destroyed Transport.
N/A, because of the above.


3. Do projected Void Shields ever get to make cover saves? Do Void Shields which sheeth a fortification ever get to make cover saves?
No. Void shields aren't models, so they can't benefit from effects that grant cover saves to models, and they can't be physically obscured from the firer's point of view, so they can't ever get a cover save for being in cover.


4. How is distance, for the allowable 12" Shield bubble determined in cases such as Torrent flamers, Barrage blasts, and odd weapons like Imotek's ligntning which comes from the sky?
In the case of the first two examples, the question is where the shooting attack originates from. That's a different question than where the shot is deemed to be coming from for purposes of determining cover saves. So the question is simply where the shooting unit is, even if the shooting attack is a Torrent or Barrage attack.

For attacks that aren't due to the action of a model ... I don't think there's a good answer. The rules simply don't specify where an attack originates from if it isn't made by a model. For that reason I'd be inclined to default to what makes the most narrative sense, which in my opinion is that attacks from the sky absolutely hit the void shield. But I really do think this is a hole in the rules.

[Katharon]

To tack onto the 3rd response there from Nab, the Void Shield Generator can take cover saves, if available, but not the projected void shields themselves.

[Denzark]

Kath - I thought there was a specific rule that buildings/fortifications couldn't have cover saves.

[Harley]

@Nab, thank you for the detailed response. I concur with your interpretation. My gaming group viewed it otherwise last time we played, so I appreciate any help wording statements which explain these rules. The problem is that the rules for projected Void Shields state "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." So it can be argued, how does one know the blast hits a target at all unless it is placed and scattered, at which point it generates more "hits".

@Kath, yes I agree

@Den, as far as I can tell, all shooting at buildings/forts are handled just as if they were vehicles. So the 25% obscured and intervening models rules would apply. I have ran into instances where my opponent claimed "just as if" didn't make them actual vehicles, so they didn't receive a cover save as a vehicle, but I pointed out that page 18 states all models, regardless of type, are given cover saves and the 25% obscured rule for vehicles is an exception stipulated in their entry.

[Gleipnir]

The prevailing "wisdom" on dakka is that Blast markers score multiple hits on a void shield per model hit under the blast template, I agree with Nab in that this is the wrong interpretation, because all hits are redirected to one instance of a Void Shield per shooting attack RAW.

Where can Blast markers inflict multiple hits on the same Void Shield is when you hit more than one "unit" with one. Example shooting a blast weapon at a unit on the battlement of a fortification also protected by Void Shields hits both the unit on top and the Building per the Stronghold Assault rules, and as the shooting player you determine the order of those results shooting attacks are resolved.

There is no rule regarding buildings and cover saves apart from buildings being treated as Transport Vehicles for shooting attack rules purposes, which means the standard 25% cover requirement applies.

[This Dave]

The prevailing "wisdom" on dakka is that Blast markers score multiple hits on a void shield per model hit under the blast template, I agree with Nab in that this is the wrong interpretation, because all hits are redirected to one instance of a Void Shield per shooting attack RAW.

Where can Blast markers inflict multiple hits on the same Void Shield is when you hit more than one "unit" with one. Example shooting a blast weapon at a unit on the battlement of a fortification also protected by Void Shields hits both the unit on top and the Building per the Stronghold Assault rules, and as the shooting player you determine the order of those results shooting attacks are resolved.

There is no rule regarding buildings and cover saves apart from buildings being treated as Transport Vehicles for shooting attack rules purposes, which means the standard 25% cover requirement applies.

So would a unit of say Basilisks all firing Barrages hit the Void Shield 3 times and nothing gets through, or would you do each hit separately and once the shield goes down apply the rest to whatever it was protecting? I'm leaning towards the former myself but I wonder what other people think.

[Harley]

So would a unit of say Basilisks all firing Barrages hit the Void Shield 3 times and nothing gets through, or would you do each hit separately and once the shield goes down apply the rest to whatever it was protecting? I'm leaning towards the former myself but I wonder what other people think.

It seems clear to me that all shooting from a single unit occurs simultaneously. The blasts would all hit the shield at the same time (roll to pen at the same time) and would not hit the original target once it collapses no more than they would hit a unit embarked in a Transport Vehicle which got destroyed by the first blast.

[Nabterayl]

So would a unit of say Basilisks all firing Barrages hit the Void Shield 3 times and nothing gets through, or would you do each hit separately and once the shield goes down apply the rest to whatever it was protecting? I'm leaning towards the former myself but I wonder what other people think.
I'm actually leaning towards the latter. The former would imply to me that if you shoot at a superheavy walker with three void shields and hit it twenty times with a single shooting attack, the very worst that could happen is that the walker loses all three shields. I don't have my copies of Escalation or Apocalypse handy, but that doesn't sound right to me.

[Harley]

I'm actually leaning towards the latter. The former would imply to me that if you shoot at a superheavy walker with three void shields and hit it twenty times with a single shooting attack, the very worst that could happen is that the walker loses all three shields. I don't have my copies of Escalation or Apocalypse handy, but that doesn't sound right to me.

I'm having trouble imagining what kind of "Single shooting" attack against a single target could possibly get 20 hits that could pen or glance AV12. It may be an impossible scenario.

[Nabterayl]

A single Leman Russ Punisher could do it, though admittedly it isn't very likely. A squadron of Punishers certainly could, though, or a single mob of lootaz. But it's a very likely scenario that a vehicle with multiple void shields gets hit more times than it has shields. As I said, I don't have my books with me at the moment, but intuitively it doesn't seem right that if I have three void shields and get hit by five lascannons from a single unit, the very worst that can happen is that I lose all three shields.

[This Dave]

A single Leman Russ Punisher could do it, though admittedly it isn't very likely. A squadron of Punishers certainly could, though, or a single mob of lootaz. But it's a very likely scenario that a vehicle with multiple void shields gets hit more times than it has shields. As I said, I don't have my books with me at the moment, but intuitively it doesn't seem right that if I have three void shields and get hit by five lascannons from a single unit, the very worst that can happen is that I lose all three shields.

Actually, unless it's a Punisher commanded by Pask it can't. A Punisher is only S5 so the best is can normally do is an 11 and it needs a 12 to drop a Void Shield. With Pask it gets Rending so that would probably do it unless the dice belong to me.

[Tyrendian]

Stormlord, or rather any Vulcan Mega Bolter that didn't move, can (with the right dice) easily pen 20 times. Completely beside the point though; even a humble Autocannon would be enough to provide the scenario we are discussing when there's only one Void Shield left.
Intuitively (no relevant books to hand) I'd say manage it similar to wound pools on units with different saves - roll to pen on the Void until it's gone, in batches of as many hits as shields are left, and then continue trying to wound/pen the unit/vehicle itself. Although that does feel weird for blast weapons...

[Nabterayl]

Intuitively (no relevant books to hand) I'd say manage it similar to wound pools on units with different saves - roll to pen on the Void until it's gone, in batches of as many hits as shields are left, and then continue trying to wound/pen the unit/vehicle itself. Although that does feel weird for blast weapons...
This is exactly my intuition as well, though I also can't prove it without books (and maybe not even then).

[Houghten]

"With the right dice" and "easily" aren't words that should go next to one another.

[Harley]

In that case, in the instance of 3 Basalisks scoring direct hits on a clump of 10 GeneStealers within a Void Shield, would we say that the blasts would resolve against the shield as a single hit and once it collapses, the hits would then apply to the Genestealers as normal, ei 1 blast gets a single hit, pens the shield and the remaining 20 hits from the 2 remaining blasts go through.

[Nabterayl]

That's my intuition, yeah.

[John Bower]

Strangely I did find myself pondering this today, a Triarch Stalker with its Heat Ray fires twice on a bunker with a Void shield. First hit collapses the shield but what about the 2nd? I assume a vehicle weapon like that is kind of like a 'double tap' weapon. So the first knocks the shield off, the 2nd penned the bunker for a kill. Forcing the Warp spiders therein to die en masse and the survivors to disembark rather hastily into the sights of a punisher. Ouch!

[Gleipnir]

So would a unit of say Basilisks all firing Barrages hit the Void Shield 3 times and nothing gets through, or would you do each hit separately and once the shield goes down apply the rest to whatever it was protecting? I'm leaning towards the former myself but I wonder what other people think.

The current wording on the rule is ambiguous "shocker" about exactly when you stop applying hits in a given shooting attack only telling you to apply further hits to the unit as normal once the shield is down, as the standard rules for shooting attacks resolve all rolls to hit from one unit at the same time, at which point they are all redirected to the Void Shield to roll for Armor Penetration, again something that is done all at the same time since the Void Shield has neither mixed saves or a character in the unit, meaning each shooting attack only applies to one instance of a Void Shield.


Stormlord, or rather any Vulcan Mega Bolter that didn't move, can (with the right dice) easily pen 20 times. Completely beside the point though; even a humble Autocannon would be enough to provide the scenario we are discussing when there's only one Void Shield left.
Intuitively (no relevant books to hand) I'd say manage it similar to wound pools on units with different saves - roll to pen on the Void until it's gone, in batches of as many hits as shields are left, and then continue trying to wound/pen the unit/vehicle itself. Although that does feel weird for blast weapons...

Personally this is how I would prefer it as well but the rule currently doesn't read this way see above. Currently as a standard shooting attack however each instance of a Void shield would be hit one at a time per shooting attack, which is where the ability to split fire or hit multiple units like Super-heavies or such as hitting units on top of battlements with blast or template weapons which hit both the unit and the building they are standing on come in handy for depleting Void Shields. Or in the case of projected void shields firing underneath the 12" coverage.

[Doones]

The current wording on the rule is ambiguous "shocker" about exactly when you stop applying hits in a given shooting attack only telling you to apply further hits to the unit as normal once the shield is down, as the standard rules for shooting attacks resolve all rolls to hit from one unit at the same time, at which point they are all redirected to the Void Shield to roll for Armor Penetration, again something that is done all at the same time since the Void Shield has neither mixed saves or a character in the unit, meaning each shooting attack only applies to one instance of a Void Shield.

Personally this is how I would prefer it as well but the rule currently doesn't read this way see above. Currently as a standard shooting attack however each instance of a Void shield would be hit one at a time per shooting attack, which is where the ability to split fire or hit multiple units like Super-heavies or such as hitting units on top of battlements with blast or template weapons which hit both the unit and the building they are standing on come in handy for depleting Void Shields. Or in the case of projected void shields firing underneath the 12" coverage.

I recently played a game in which this scenario came up. 4 x multi-melta marines firing at a fortification that was within a projected void shield zone. Since all the multi-meltas fire at the same time they hit the same void shield and thus could only drop one rather than all three.

I cannot agree more that the rules are definitely unclear as to the amount of shields a single unit can drop in a given turn when firing the same weapon. I have scoured the different forums looking for clarification, but the best I can come up with currently is found on page 31 of the core rule book. It states "All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together".

It then follows up with an example of a space marine unit composed of a bolters, plasma gun, and missile launcher. The player selects which weapon he/she will use (bolters) and resolves it completely. The player then moves onto the next weapon (plasma gun) and resolves it, and finally the missile launcher.

Following this logic and the scenario I referred to above if the heavy weapons unit were equipped with different weapons (E.g. Lascannon, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon, and Missile Launcher) then each would resolve independently and could therefore bring down more than one shield.

I'm not sold on this as I do not believe this was the intention how void shields should work, but until I find a GW faq or someone else whom can point me at a rule that states how they work more clearly this is what I have to work with.

What do you all think?