yet ANOTHER TLOS question...

[Denzark]

Hey all,

We have already gone round the houses and said that an interposing unit (of infantry) would not give a cover save to a vehicle (say defiler) due to its size - irrelevant of centre mass targetting etc - you can trace TLOS to it with no dramas.

But what about Wolf pack (fast attack) giving cover to Thunderwolf cav who are probably also twice as high. Or even infantry who may be only half again as high but you could prbably target in a straight line without hitting those sleek quite low to the gorundd wulluffs.

Any thoughts?

[Nabterayl]

Thunderwolves and Fenris wolves are neither monstrous creatures nor vehicles. Hence, the default rules on page 21 and 22 apply - the Thunderwolves and Fenris wolves are in cover if (i) the intervening infantry covers any part of the Twolves/Fwolves' legs, bodies, arms, or heads or if (ii) the firers' have clear line of sight to the target but that line of sight passes through the height-line fence created by the intervening infantry. The unit of Twolves/Fwolves, in turn, is entitled to a cover save if at least 50% of the models in the unit are "in cover" by the above rules.

EDIT: Note that, as with vehicles, center of mass is not important. Hence, if a firer can draw a line of sight to the center of mass of a thunderwolf without passing through the heightline fence of intervening models, but has to pass through the heightline fence in order to shoot the thunderwolf's front left toe, the thunderwolf is still "in cover."

[BuFFo]

The answer for TLOS is always the same in every situation, without fail. Once you learn these two basic rules, TLOS becomes the easiest thing to do in the game.

1) Vehicles / Monstrous Creatures require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, and can never use the Area Terrain general save.

2) Units require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, but can use the Area Terrain general save.

Knowing these two very basic rules, all your TLOS questions will be answered.

[L192837465]

The answer for TLOS is always the same in every situation, without fail. Once you learn these two basic rules, TLOS becomes the easiest thing to do in the game.

1) Vehicles / Monstrous Creatures require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, and can never use the Area Terrain general save.

2) Units require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, but can use the Area Terrain general save.

Knowing these two very basic rules, all your TLOS questions will be answered.

If I have a model with a lascannon on say, the third level of a building, and there's a landspeeder in between him and a land raider, can I shoot THROUGH the speeder (if the side doors are open)?

If i could see more than 50% of the vehicle by shooting through said open doors, would it get cover?

[MarshalAdamar]

I'm pretty sure the BrB states that a model that is partially obscured counts has having cover. So it comes down to how many Thunder wolf Cav models can your army see unobscured.

If the answer is 3 then you're good the Thunder wolf cav gets no cover save as half the unit is not obscured.

But with a line of wolves in front of the Cav chances are they're going to get a cover save.

I guess that assumes the wolves are leaping and bounding and generally spoiling your aim.

[DarkLink]

The answer for TLOS is always the same in every situation, without fail. Once you learn these two basic rules, TLOS becomes the easiest thing to do in the game.

1) Vehicles / Monstrous Creatures require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, and can never use the Area Terrain general save.

2) Units require 50%+ LOS to be blocked by ANYTHING to receive a cover save, but can use the Area Terrain general save.

Knowing these two very basic rules, all your TLOS questions will be answered.

Good simplification. I've never understood why some have trouble with TLOS and cover saves, since you can pretty much boil it down to the above points.

I'll add one more rule that people somehow manage to screw up, though:

If you can see the main body of the target model from the firing model (if firing a weapon on a vehicle, the weapon must be able to see the target), you can shoot it. The main body is defined as everything excluding extraneous parts such as vehicle weapon barrels, wings, antenna, etc.


If I have a model with a lascannon on say, the third level of a building, and there's a landspeeder in between him and a land raider, can I shoot THROUGH the speeder (if the side doors are open)?

If i could see more than 50% of the vehicle by shooting through said open doors, would it get cover?

If you can see it, you can shoot it. And if it is a vehicle and you can see more than 50% of it, it does not get a cover save.

Between my additional rule above, and Buffo's two rules, the answer to this question become immediately clear.

[Culven]

We have already gone round the houses and said that an interposing unit (of infantry) would not give a cover save to a vehicle (say defiler) due to its size - irrelevant of centre mass targetting etc - you can trace TLOS to it with no dramas.
This isn't always going to be true. If the Infantry are closer to the firing unit, they will effectively block more LOS, so they could potentially grant a Cover Save. As with all Cover Save issues, the rules provide the requirements for determining Cover and actually table-top conditions will dictate whether the requirements are met. Blanket statements that unit X will/will not grant Cover Saves to unit Y simply will not work.

[Nabterayl]

you can trace TLOS to it with no dramas.

The most helpful "shortcut" rule I have about TLOS is to remember what it is. You're never drawing TLOS to a single point on the model. You're always drawing TLOS to an entire target "zone." For monstrous creatures and vehicles, that zone is any 50% of the model. For everything else, it's the entire head, arms, body, and legs of the model. If you don't have clear TLOS to the entire target zone, the model is in cover.

[Duke]

I agree with Nab. It is more like an area you are targeting... your not trying to shoot a hand, or going for a HALO headshot. I have found gerat use of a laser pointer. If any part of the body of the model cannot be hit by the laser it makes it easy.

Duke

[randyh]

I'd like some clarification to this for my own understanding. I recently started playing, and by that I mean, a year ago. The group I play with are experienced players, coming from 3E or 4E rule sets. So I'm brand new to the game on 5E.

I played a game with some space wolves this past weekend, and I had a bit of a hiccup on a LOS issue. Just to layout the problem here. A squad of 5 long fangs are behind some ruined building. They are in a T formation with a long fang poking out each end. They are firing at my soul grinder. I'm told that 1 model can see the unit so the whole unit can fire. I immediately shoot this down and say it's false. Was I right? They give me the benefit of the doubt, say 2 models have direct line of sight (which I can verify from both view points), and one long fang can see the blade of armor on the front leg of my grinder, so they tell me he gets a shot too. Based on what I'm reading here, only 2 long fangs would get the shot because they are the only two that can see 50% or more of the model yes?

I'm only asking because I've been told several times now that as long as one model can see any part of the opposing unit or vehicle, the entire unit can fire on it. According to this rule, weapons, wings, or in my case a blade on the front leg armor, would not count as a LOS and therefore that model cannot fire. Am I correct on this or not?

I only bring this up because I'm a straight Khorne daemon player, and I tend to get shot up charging in. If I've been getting taken advantage of because I'm new, well then that has to stop.

Also, please tell me if I am wrong in this. TLOS should be able to be seen by both parties. The one shooting and the one being shot at? Assuming that I'm getting a viewpoint from the body part the opposer is shooting me at, and if we're going to go with 50% of the vehicle has to be seen, he would have to see more than my front claw to get a shot from that model?

Sorry for the long post. Like I said, new player, just trying to understand better so I can play better and not stop the game because of a rules issue.

[Nabterayl]

I played a game with some space wolves this past weekend, and I had a bit of a hiccup on a LOS issue. Just to layout the problem here. A squad of 5 long fangs are behind some ruined building. They are in a T formation with a long fang poking out each end. They are firing at my soul grinder. I'm told that 1 model can see the unit so the whole unit can fire. I immediately shoot this down and say it's false. Was I right? They give me the benefit of the doubt, say 2 models have direct line of sight (which I can verify from both view points), and one long fang can see the blade of armor on the front leg of my grinder, so they tell me he gets a shot too. Based on what I'm reading here, only 2 long fangs would get the shot because they are the only two that can see 50% or more of the model yes?
Correct - only those models with a line of sight can shoot. Unambiguously spelled out on page 16.


I'm only asking because I've been told several times now that as long as one model can see any part of the opposing unit or vehicle, the entire unit can fire on it. According to this rule, weapons, wings, or in my case a blade on the front leg armor, would not count as a LOS and therefore that model cannot fire. Am I correct on this or not?
You're correct - "decorative" elements don't count as part of a model's target zone. For you in particular, the hands do count - but the weapons those hands are holding do not. Similarly, the legs count, but demonic spiky bits on the legs do not. Unambiguously spelled out on page 16.


Also, please tell me if I am wrong in this. TLOS should be able to be seen by both parties. The one shooting and the one being shot at? Assuming that I'm getting a viewpoint from the body part the opposer is shooting me at, and if we're going to go with 50% of the vehicle has to be seen, he would have to see more than my front claw to get a shot from that model?
TLOS is not necessarily reciprocal, no, because it's asymmetrical. Speaking only of non-vehicle non-MCs here, TLOS is drawn from the firer's eyes to the entire target zone of the target, which in the case of non-vehicle non-MCs, is the head, body, arms, hands, legs, and feet. It is entirely possible that your bloodletter's right arm is sticking out from behind the building he is sheltering behind, for instance, in which case the bloodletter would not have LOS to anybody (because all his eyes can see is a brick wall) but others could have LOS to him (because they can see the arm waving in the breeze). Doesn't happen that often, but it can happen.

It sounds like you mostly have the rules right - only models that can actually see can shoot. As page 16 says, "All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit can fire." Hence, models that don't have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit cannot fire.

Note that the firing rules are also asymmetrical. For instance, if you have five long fangs hiding behind a building, only two of which can see your 16 daemons, only those two long fangs can fire. However, if you had long fangs shooting at 16 daemons hiding behind a building, only one of which was visible, the entire daemon squad would be fired upon, even though only one model was visible.

A good shorthand way to remember it is this: models shoot, units get shot.

[randyh]

Thanks for the quick response, and yes I'm aware of the units getting shot, and since majority are behind cover I'd get a save. No question there. My question was mainly due to I think them confusing older rules with newer rules.

Appreciate it.

[Jwolf]

You are right. Their confusion seems to be that a whole unit can be shot if one of them could be seen - but not shot if onecan see.

[DarkLink]

I'd like some clarification to this for my own understanding. I recently started playing, and by that I mean, a year ago. The group I play with are experienced players, coming from 3E or 4E rule sets. So I'm brand new to the game on 5E.

I played a game with some space wolves this past weekend, and I had a bit of a hiccup on a LOS issue. Just to layout the problem here. A squad of 5 long fangs are behind some ruined building. They are in a T formation with a long fang poking out each end. They are firing at my soul grinder. I'm told that 1 model can see the unit so the whole unit can fire. I immediately shoot this down and say it's false. Was I right? They give me the benefit of the doubt, say 2 models have direct line of sight (which I can verify from both view points), and one long fang can see the blade of armor on the front leg of my grinder, so they tell me he gets a shot too. Based on what I'm reading here, only 2 long fangs would get the shot because they are the only two that can see 50% or more of the model yes?

I'm only asking because I've been told several times now that as long as one model can see any part of the opposing unit or vehicle, the entire unit can fire on it. According to this rule, weapons, wings, or in my case a blade on the front leg armor, would not count as a LOS and therefore that model cannot fire. Am I correct on this or not?

I only bring this up because I'm a straight Khorne daemon player, and I tend to get shot up charging in. If I've been getting taken advantage of because I'm new, well then that has to stop.

Also, please tell me if I am wrong in this. TLOS should be able to be seen by both parties. The one shooting and the one being shot at? Assuming that I'm getting a viewpoint from the body part the opposer is shooting me at, and if we're going to go with 50% of the vehicle has to be seen, he would have to see more than my front claw to get a shot from that model?

Sorry for the long post. Like I said, new player, just trying to understand better so I can play better and not stop the game because of a rules issue.

You would be correct. Only two long fangs could shoot.

Funnily enough, though, if you shot back and caused 5 wounds on the long fang squad, you could kill all of them despite only being able to see one.

And unfortunately, what is and isn't the "main body" of a model is kinda poorly defined. For a soul grinder, it'd be legs, body and hull, excluding the spikey bits poking out everywhere. Really, I think GW needs to figure out a better way of defining this.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg 15..The Shooting Sequence "All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy in the target unit may open fire."
You are correct , the entrie unit cannot fire because one model has LOS. Only the models that have LOS are allowed to fire.
( indirect fire of course is an exception)
Legs on the Defiler are a legal target, if any part is seen he would get a shot, the 50% is for determing if the defiler gets a cover save. so in this case 2 models would get a shot and the defiler would get a cover save.
All LOS questions can only be judged on the table top.
It is possible to see a unit without being seen, although rare.