40K Rulebooks, Starter Sets and Psychic Cards Pulled - 7th Ed 40K Imminent?

[Lexington]

So, multiple (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/7th-edition-release-date.html) reports (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290277-gw-withdraw-dark-vengeance-rulebook-psyker-cards/) that the 6th Edition rulebook, psychic cards and Dark Vengeance starter are all unavailable for order as of today, both for stores and on the web.

Looks like 7th Edition's on its way, folks. According to Natfka, we'll see a release on May 24th. Let's hope for the best.

[Wolfshade]

Still up for sale on the GW.UK site....

Though I am surprised at the release date, if it is true. GW would usually drop a new Ruleset just before the schools summer holiday in June/July ready for Gamesday in September... so 31st May might be possible.

[Clockwork]

Just checked: the core rules are "No Longer Available" in the US.

8476

[Defenestratus]

So, multiple (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/7th-edition-release-date.html) reports (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290277-gw-withdraw-dark-vengeance-rulebook-psyker-cards/) that the 6th Edition rulebook, psychic cards and Dark Vengeance starter are all unavailable for order as of today, both for stores and on the web.

Looks like 7th Edition's on its way, folks. According to Natfka, we'll see a release on May 24th. Let's hope for the best.

Pretty exciting.

Shall I begin the rampant speculation as to the changes?

Allies Matrix is going to get changed and either Battle Brothers disappears completely or its changed in a manner so that you cannot transfer powers/abilities between units from different FOC's/Codexes.

Psychic powers are going to change and I think you'll see some warp charge 2 divination powers and a change to prescience. The IG PBS and the farseer powers both lead me to believe that Divination is the going to change. I also think that the powers that Bugs have access to will change for the better, and Pyromancy will get some nasty goodies.

USRs get an overhaul. Skyfire no longer will snap fire on ground targets but wont be as good at hitting flyers. Ignores cover will take away shrouded/stealth.

Challenges will become less of a "bad decision vs an even worse decision" for the underdog.

Escalation (hopefully) and Stronghold assault become just part of the core rulebook.

[MarneusCalgar]

This makes me feel a lot of panic...

[Clockwork]

Someone in the UK on another board checked the UK version. It's listed as "available" but apparently you can't add it to your cart.

[Power Klawz]

Wild Speculation (or Precognitive Decree, depending on correctness): Not actually 7th edition, most rules will not change, will only add lords of war and maybe a smattering of other extra rules that are currently available in supplemental rule sets. Book will have a different picture, box set will have new miniatures.

Also the new boxed set will cost a bit more but come with a really nice hardcover mini rulebook instead of a flimsy softcover one.

[Charon]

Pretty exciting.

Shall I begin the rampant speculation as to the changes?

Allies Matrix is going to get changed and either Battle Brothers disappears completely or its changed in a manner so that you cannot transfer powers/abilities between units from different FOC's/Codexes.

Psychic powers are going to change and I think you'll see some warp charge 2 divination powers and a change to prescience. The IG PBS and the farseer powers both lead me to believe that Divination is the going to change. I also think that the powers that Bugs have access to will change for the better, and Pyromancy will get some nasty goodies.

USRs get an overhaul. Skyfire no longer will snap fire on ground targets but wont be as good at hitting flyers. Ignores cover will take away shrouded/stealth.

Challenges will become less of a "bad decision vs an even worse decision" for the underdog.

Escalation (hopefully) and Stronghold assault become just part of the core rulebook.

I guess Allies Matrix is getting an overhaul but I dont think that they will change the whole concept. Allies can be toned down quite a bit if you have to remain in your original FOC (so Baron in Jetseer would mean no 2nd farseer, no 4 drakes,...).

Basic psychic powers will get adjusted. Pyromancy is lacking... I mean wft 2 WP for a melter shot? Dont think that codex powers will get changed (unless they change more general SR like witchfire,... )

USR will get an overhaul, there are too many atm and codices bring even more (partly with the same wording but another name)

Challenges need a change. But not for the reason you mentioned, as they are punishing strong models and in fact favor the underdog. Scared of that 10 attacks khorne lord eating your imperial squad? Step forwards sergant receive your single wound and save 9 other guardsmen. Glorious concept.

Dont mind Escalation or Stronghold if they get rid of the "look I pointed at your army and it went BOOM!" weapons.

[Lexington]

I'd put some honest money on Allies being expanded, rather than limited. That's easy bank for GW without needing to spend a dime.

[PaD]

Damn! I was really hoping they would finish updating the Codexes before a new edition came out. I wish just once they could finish one job before starting another. What's going to happen to all the codexes out so far? Of course they will still be playable, but how will they fair against stuff written for 7th. Same old mistakes every flipping time. Gosh darn it! :mad:

[Charon]

Its the "not 7th" edition. More of a 6.1 than a new edition... not much changes probably.

[Patrick Boyle]

Damn! I was really hoping they would finish updating the Codexes before a new edition came out. I wish just once they could finish one job before starting another. What's going to happen to all the codexes out so far? Of course they will still be playable, but how will they fair against stuff written for 7th. Same old mistakes every flipping time. Gosh darn it! :mad:

Given half the 6th codexes already fair pretty poorly against the other half I don't see how it could get worse...

[Crydon Games]

Starter set says its still available. I am excited IF this is a move toward an update to the rules.

[Lord Asterion]

Things are still available on the site but won't get added to a basket to buy

[Wildeybeast]

Yep. You can't add the BRB, though the mini rules book is still available to buy, as are the e-rules. Which seems odd. Surely the mini-rules would go if they were being changed. Makes me think that it may just be adding stuff to the BRB, rather than changing the rules.

[TauBoss]

Just checked: the core rules are "No Longer Available" in the US.

8476

Im sure there was a rumour floating around about an updated rule set coming out. Not 7th but a new boxed set with blood angels and orks. Is this maybe why they are dropping these items.

Not 7th but faqs added.

[Maelstorm]

Curious to see what, if anything happens to the Psychic Power tables, Battle Brothers charts and Warlord Traits. Please - Let there be FAQ's!!

I'm sure that no matter what changes our friendly Chaos Space Marine players will complain the loudest - It is tradition.... ;)

I'm running a tournament on May 31st - it may be our last shot at 6th edition!

[RGilbert26]

Someone pass me the salt, I need to add more to this huge pile of salt.

[TauBoss]

Just checked: the core rules are "No Longer Available" in the US.

8476

Im sure there was a rumour floating around about an updated rule set coming out. Not 7th but a new boxed set with blood angels and orks. Is this maybe why they are dropping these items.

Not 7th but faqs added.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Has anyone considered that it might be this new "mini game" mentioned in WDD issue 13?

[daboarder]

I cant believe people are excited about this?

Its been 2 years since 6th dropped, thats an insultingly short time to try and drop a new edition on people.

And before you go on about the game and balance, who do you think broke it? They did.

edit: my best hope is that they are re-releasing 6th with the changes added. But I'm not going to think about that too much as it would be the first time GW actually lived up to one of my hopes

[Solution9]

I feel like I want to be credited for the money I spent on that new hard cover mini rule book they put out less than a year ago.

[Arkhan Land]

I agree im hoping this will be an update and not something that requires a new purchase thankfully i got my 6th edition book at half off due to their poor sales at one of my local stores but a looming 60-80 dollar purchase wont be welcome in place of my desire to get a few taurox primes soon

[daboarder]

for me, it wont be a purchase, not this time. If I do get it it will be from a mate

[Sainhann]

I cant believe people are excited about this?

Its been 2 years since 6th dropped, thats an insultingly short time to try and drop a new edition on people.

And before you go on about the game and balance, who do you think broke it? They did.

edit: my best hope is that they are re-releasing 6th with the changes added. But I'm not going to think about that too much as it would be the first time GW actually lived up to one of my hopes

Thing is, are they coming up with a new Edition or are they forcing individuals who want the rulebook to get the digital version?

Hardback rulebook cost them money to produce.

Digital version is far cheaper since there are no printing costs.

GW wants to cut costs and getting rid of the Printing Costs of the Hardback Rulebook will be a huge savings for them.

[daboarder]

Thing is, are they coming up with a new Edition or are they forcing individuals who want the rulebook to get the digital version?

Hardback rulebook cost them money to produce.

Digital version is far cheaper since there are no printing costs.

GW wants to cut costs and getting rid of the Printing Costs of the Hardback Rulebook will be a huge savings for them.

The signs are pointing at a new edition.

we're getting word that the infamous tagline, No peace, no respite, only war. is being used again, specifically (no time for peace...) and that has historically been the herald of a new edition.

as I said, I hope its not, I really want it to be just a new version of the rule book but the cynic in me thinks otherwise

[The Sovereign]

My Dark Eldar want to know if they can get assaulting out of reserves back, pretty please?

I really only care about the new edition if the rumored starter set is true. New pushfit Ork models are always welcome, especially if they're meganobz!

[Blood Shadow]

I just don't think 6th has been around long enough, I'll be massively upset if they do change it.

That been said I think there is just too much smoke here for there to be no fire.

Things I can see changing:

Assault consolidate into assault
D12 Psychic powers per set (sell more cards)
Lords of War & Strong Hold Assault added
New Missions

Saltier stuff...
Allies being changed somehow, perhaps Battle Bros nerf or boost (ICs allowed in allied Transports?)
FOC being changed somehow
Walkers to get something extra
Pistols to use AP in CC (this would make Dante and BA ridiculous again)

[Wolfshade]

I cant believe people are excited about this?

Its been 2 years since 6th dropped, thats an insultingly short time to try and drop a new edition on people.

And before you go on about the game and balance, who do you think broke it? They did.

edit: my best hope is that they are re-releasing 6th with the changes added. But I'm not going to think about that too much as it would be the first time GW actually lived up to one of my hopes

I know what you mean, on the one hand I am excited, new stuff! On the other it's been two years.
To put it into perspective, one of my mates has managed one game under 6th, that was last night...

[Katharon]

Personally, I don't like the idea of having to buy another friggen BRB just because GW want's to make a bundle of fast cash by printing "new" copies of a more "up to date" rulebook. I'll wait to see if the new starter set includes a rulebook that contains all the new additions to whatever they make.

[Wolfshade]

Has anyone emailed/'phoned customer support to ask why this products aren't available?

[Mr Mystery]

Personally, I've always waited to actually see the Monster before grabbing my pitchfork, burning brand and noose.

All too often the 'monster' was just a hedgehog all along.

[daboarder]

Personally, I've always waited to actually see the Monster before grabbing my pitchfork, burning brand and noose.

All too often the 'monster' was just a hedgehog all along.

yawn!:rolleyes:

Personally I've always found it funny that people see pitchforks raising where there isnt.

[Katharon]

Personally, I've always waited to actually see the Monster before grabbing my pitchfork, burning brand and noose.

All too often the 'monster' was just a hedgehog all along.

A certain pattern of well recorded behavior let's you be prepared for said "monster" beforehand.

[Mr Mystery]

yawn!:rolleyes:

Personally I've always found it funny that people see pitchforks raising where there isnt.

And some people are in dire need of cultivating a sense of humour.

[daboarder]

And some people are in dire need of cultivating a sense of humour.

True

[eldargal]

Wasn't there a rumour of a new 6th ed starter set in June? Not 7th edition.

[Lord Asterion]

Maybe there will be a tweaked rule book and a free pdf of changes for people with the 6th edition book.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if people think 6th is fine and don't want to buy the book, don't, carry on playing the game you like playing.

[Wolfshade]

Wasn't there a rumour of a new 6th ed starter set in June? Not 7th edition.

Yeah, the 6.5th. Orks vs Bangles I'll have 17 please!

[daboarder]

Maybe there will be a tweaked rule book and a free pdf of changes for people with the 6th edition book.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if people think 6th is fine and don't want to buy the book, don't, carry on playing the game you like playing.

Unfortunately GWs staggered codex/BRB releases makes this very hard.

No one want to play a book that was not written for the edition they are playing in therefore the only way that would be a serious consideration to most groups would be for all codexes to have been released in a single edition (like 3rd).

Personally this was what I had been hoping 6th was going to be, ah well guess I wont have that voice in my head urging me to buy all the collectors editions for completions sake

[Mr Mystery]

I'd imagine it's just a rebinding of the rulebook, to match a change in the starter set.

I'm game for that, as I won't need to replace my existing one.

[daboarder]

I'd imagine it's just a rebinding of the rulebook, to match a change in the starter set.

I'm game for that, as I won't need to replace my existing one.

if thats what it is, with the expansions thrown in, then thats great in my opinion, as that would mean that they do intend for this edition to last longer.

[Laban Den]

BRB and Mini rule book no longer available on UK site.

[Wolfshade]

if thats what it is, with the expansions thrown in, then thats great in my opinion, as that would mean that they do intend for this edition to last longer.


And it will make it easier than having to rock up to your mates with a small library...

[daboarder]

the mini book is down? it was up earlier today after the major dropped.

guess this is a major edition drop....

[Mr Mystery]

Curiouser and curiouser.

I really don't expect to see some sort of new edition - That would be mad after less than two years.

But there's defo something in the offing.

[Defenestratus]

That would be mad after less than two years.

This isn't unprecedented. 40k 3rd to 3.5 was 2 years delta.

That was before GW started with the new breakneck release pace too.

I wonder if you count the number of codexes released between editions, if 6th had the same amount of new codexes released during its lifespan than did 5th?

[Mr Mystery]

Except 3.5 was never actually released on the shelves, least not that I'm aware of. Was just WD articles with alternate rules wasn't it?

[Defenestratus]

Except 3.5 was never actually released on the shelves, least not that I'm aware of. Was just WD articles with alternate rules wasn't it?

I don't recall as that was actually during my hiatus from the hobby. Pretty sure it was in chapter approved though/soft launch.

[daboarder]

I don't recall as that was actually during my hiatus from the hobby. Pretty sure it was in chapter approved though/soft launch.

White dwarf to start then in the CA annuals.

but only ever marketed as "trial" rules set, but widely adopted as superior

to be honest Id never heard it referred to as 3.5 till this 7th ed nonsense started showing up

[Mr Mystery]

More or less my thoughts too.

[Defenestratus]

More or less my thoughts too.

To me anyways, the time span between editions is just about perfect. I would like a revision of the core rules every year actually but I understand that it may be too much to swallow for a lot of hobbyists to buy new rulebooks every year.

However, if this edition goes towards "fixing" that which we find objectionable in the current version, then how could it be considered "coming too soon"?

If there's a problem with the ruleset, then it couldn't come soon enough for me! (Or my Blood Angels rather)

[Clockwork]

Customer Service emailed me back about the rulebook (emphasis mine):


Hello there,

Currently the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook is out of stock and I do not have a date as to when they will be back in stock right now. We will have to keep watching the Games Workshop website and White Dwarf for more information. You can still get the mini rulebook in the Dark Vengeance core set. Should you need anything else please give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 and we will work to get you helped out.

Thanks,


Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

So something is coming. I'm prepared for the worst, just in case.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet if the diddy book is still available, seems unlikely the big one has been pulled for a full revision replacement.

Additional stuff in it, yes.

New boxed set to show it off? Yes.

Complete new addition, not so much.

Cheers for the info Clockwork!

[Lord Asterion]

Yet if the diddy book is still available, seems unlikely the big one has been pulled for a full revision replacement.

Additional stuff in it, yes.

New boxed set to show it off? Yes.

Complete new addition, not so much.

Cheers for the info Clockwork!

The separate diddy book isn't available, only the one you get in Dark Vengeance, if you buy Dark Vengeance.

[Wolf Lord Zig]

Well I just went to the US website. The hard back full size rule book is no longer available. The mini hard back is gone from the site all together. and the e-book/ibook rulebook is gone as well. the only thing left to buy and that you can add to the cart is dark vengeance. Also just went to the UK site and the same is on theirs. I just hope that whatever comes out fixes the hobby for the good and not for the worse.

[Lexington]

I just hope that whatever comes out fixes the hobby for the good and not for the worse.
Same. I'm...well, "cautiously hopeful" is the best way to explain it. There's a lot of good that could be done with a 7th Edition. Lord knows 40K could use it right now, and I say this as a big, big fan of almost all of the things 6th Edition brought to the game, conceptually. Unfortunately, GW hasn't shown much, if any interest in good game design lately, or at least thinking about how the game works beyond "is this playable in a basic sense." There's some chance that the shock of this year's poor returns has mobilized them towards better design principles, but there's precious little evidence of that yet.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm just eager to see what's what.

I'm an adaptable sod me. Which translated can mean I'm easily pleased.

[Eldar_Atog]

Unfortunately, GW hasn't shown much, if any interest in good game design lately, or at least thinking about how the game works beyond "is this playable in a basic sense." There's some chance that the shock of this year's poor returns has mobilized them towards better design principles, but there's precious little evidence of that yet.

I wouldn't put much hope into that outcome. It's more likely to be just a money grab since the BRB is almost a mandatory purchase. I figure my gaming group will buy one rulebook at first to research if we need multiple copies or not.

[StarWarsDoug]

7th Edition rulebook. 985 pages of fluff. 2 pages of rules. Rules boil down to 1.9 pages of terrain and model setup, and the rest explaining game play, below:

"Once all models have been placed. The player who set up first rolls a d6 to attempt to win the game. On a 6+ the game is over and that player wins. Play alternates to each player in this manner until one player wins or the end of Turn 7. Depending on which armies are on the table each player may take modifiers to their roll as follows:

Space Marines: +1
Eldar: +5
Chaos Daemons: +3
Tau: +4
Astra Militarum: +2
All Others: -4

And remember the Golden rule: We get all your gold."

[Clockwork]

Cheers for the info Clockwork!

No problem! ;)

[Clockwork]

So on the interesting observation front, I took a look at a comparison of how much stuff was released for 6th versus 5th just for fun:

6th:
9 Full Codexes
4 "Mini-dexes"
6 Codex Supplements
5 Expansions

5th Edition:
9 Codexes (Counting the Sisters WD Codex)
4 Expansions

So just on a "how much stuff released" perspective you could argue that 6th isn't leaving too soon. And it's interesting that in 2 years we got the same number of codexes in 6th that we got in 4-5 years with 5th. I wonder if GW is basing the launch of a new edition on the amount of stuff they've released and not the amount of time between the editions.

On a timeline though 2 years still really feels short regardless of how much stuff came out, but I don't think this edition has been short changed on content at least.

[Lord Asterion]

No one knows whats happening yet so I don't know why you're all gearing up to be so negative

[SquigBrain]

No one knows whats happening yet so I don't know why you're all gearing up to be so negative

Because Internet!

SquigBrain runs around in circles, waving his arms wildly. "DOOM! DOOOOOOM!"

[Eldar_Atog]

No one knows whats happening yet so I don't know why you're all gearing up to be so negative

I can't speak for others but here are my reasons..

1) Experience has taught me that the BRB rules changes to be a negative event. What disappears this time? Shooting getting weakened in favor of close combat.. vehicles over infantry.. gunline vs more aggressive lists.

2) Since this is probably a desperate move to improve sales numbers, the rules changes could be a rush job with little testing.

3) I'm a project lead for a software testing group. Pessimism is the safest port in a storm. The people that believe everything will work out are the ones that crash the ship into the rocks.

[Lord Asterion]

I can't speak for others but here are my reasons..

1) Experience has taught me that the BRB rules changes to be a negative event. What disappears this time? Shooting getting weakened in favor of close combat.. vehicles over infantry.. gunline vs more aggressive lists.

2) Since this is probably a desperate move to improve sales numbers, the rules changes could be a rush job with little testing.

3) I'm a project lead for a software testing group. Pessimism is the safest port in a storm. The people that believe everything will work out are the ones that crash the ship into the rocks.

1) based on what exactly? the only time I've seen it being bad was the change from 2nd to 3rd, but that made sense for them as they wanted to change the game from a skirmish sized game to mass combat

2) You're basing this on something you have said earlier on in the thread, its likely NOT a sales driver, rules take a lot of writing and big books like that are expensive, I doubt they're high profit items, if they wanted to drive up sales, model releases would do better

3) No one it saying it will all work out, I'm just saying moaning about it is pointless.

[Harley]

Customer Service emailed me back about the rulebook (emphasis mine):


Hello there,

Currently the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook is out of stock and I do not have a date as to when they will be back in stock right now. We will have to keep watching the Games Workshop website and White Dwarf for more information. You can still get the mini rulebook in the Dark Vengeance core set. Should you need anything else please give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 and we will work to get you helped out.

Thanks,


Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

So something is coming. I'm prepared for the worst, just in case.

This is their canned answer for everything. They have said this to me before about Sisters of Battle models and look, nothing 20 years later.

[Clockwork]

No one knows whats happening yet so I don't know why you're all gearing up to be so negative
I just assume the worst so I don't end up dissapointed. Basically I set my expectations extraordinarily low so anything looks better.

[Rangerrob]

release -----years old....years between
(1st) 1987--------27..................6
(2nd) 1993-------21..................5
(3rd) 1998--------16..................6
(4th) 2004--------10..................4
(5th) 2008---------6...................4
(6th) 2012---------2...................2
(7th?)2014

Can't really believe they are kicking out a new edition so soon after the last....

[Eldar_Atog]

1) based on what exactly? the only time I've seen it being bad was the change from 2nd to 3rd, but that made sense for them as they wanted to change the game from a skirmish sized game to mass combat

2) You're basing this on something you have said earlier on in the thread, its likely NOT a sales driver, rules take a lot of writing and big books like that are expensive, I doubt they're high profit items, if they wanted to drive up sales, model releases would do better

3) No one it saying it will all work out, I'm just saying moaning about it is pointless.

1) Based on several things. We've had editions where vehicles were king and the infantry just stood there. The waxing and waning of close combat over multiple editions. The current edition's introduction of flyers/allies and not giving equal access to all the different races.

2) You are correct that large rule books like that are expensive but it's the one thing that every person playing will have to have access to. The profit margin is lower but it's going to sell more units than almost everything.. except for perhaps space marine base troops.

3) You asked why we were being negative. It's just as pointless to moan about the moaning. In the end, giving voice to the negativity is a healthy thing. Better to let it out instead of quietly bottling it up.

[Clockwork]

release -----years old....years between
(1st) 1987--------27..................6
(2nd) 1993-------21..................5
(3rd) 1998--------16..................6
(4th) 2004--------10..................4
(5th) 2008---------6...................4
(6th) 2012---------2...................2
(7th?)2014

Can't really believe they are kicking out a new edition so soon after the last....
Agreed years wise it is odd, but content wise 6th trumped 5th and that might be a major factor.

[Harley]

Honestly, I think they are just doing like WoTC did with D&D and releasing a revised 6th which will be called 6.5 or 6thRevised etc. It was great for D&D and probably will be for this as well.

If you really don't want to buy the 6.5 book, you probably won't need to, but will just have to print out a longer Errata and have your own copy of Stronghold and Escalation, possible Apoc as well.

[Cartridge]

Honestly, I think they are just doing like WoTC did with D&D and releasing a revised 6th which will be called 6.5 or 6thRevised etc. It was great for D&D and probably will be for this as well.

This is honestly what I'm hoping this becomes. And not D&D 3 to 4 :/

[Power Klawz]

release -----years old....years between
(1st) 1987--------27..................6
(2nd) 1993-------21..................5
(3rd) 1998--------16..................6
(4th) 2004--------10..................4
(5th) 2008---------6...................4
(6th) 2012---------2...................2
(7th?)2014

Can't really believe they are kicking out a new edition so soon after the last....

Wait... by my calculations we should see a double event in 2016! WE'LL NEVER SURVIVE!

[daboarder]

Agreed years wise it is odd, but content wise 6th trumped 5th and that might be a major factor.

content is largely just further proving the point.

the volume of content for 6th is mostly good, but its all for naught if that content is largely invalidated by the release of an edition its not designed for in less than a year.

On another note, Im more worried at the development time required for a new edition? this seems very rushed....

[Jgolden]

I talked to my local shop right after he got off the phone with his distributer. The items listed are no longer manditory shelf items but can still be sold. That is a BIG difference from being "Pulled".

This points more towards an update then a new edition.

My two cents.

[Clockwork]

content is largely just further proving the point.

the volume of content for 6th is mostly good, but its all for naught if that content is largely invalidated by the release of an edition its not designed for in less than a year.

On another note, Im more worried at the development time required for a new edition? this seems very rushed....
We don't have any proof things are going to invalidate anything. We don't even have solid info on what the release actually entails.

And it does feel potentially rushed. I'm waiting to what happens before I grab torch and pitchfork.

[daboarder]

We don't have any proof things are going to invalidate anything. We don't even have solid info on what the release actually entails.

And it does feel potentially rushed. I'm waiting to what happens before I grab torch and pitchfork.

firstly, there is no torch and pitchfork...yet ;)

secondly, Most people dont need to keep sticking their hand in the fire to remind themselves it burns

[Clockwork]

firstly, there is no torch and pitchfork

secondly, Most people dont need to keep sticking their hand in the fire to remind themselves it burns
I was talking about waiting to see what unfolds before I start flipping tables and the like. I prefer to play a long game on how things unfold and I react to them. I'll likely end up playing a few games to make up my mind before I quit playing or not.

Not that I play all that much right now as is

[jonsgot]

Not that I play all that much right now as is

That is something I hear a lot. 6th was great but no one played it much, was somehow a bit soulless? Or were we to busy doing what gw customers like to do most. Buying models. I notice there is still no news on sales I mean games day?

[Clockwork]

That is something I hear a lot. 6th was great but no one played it much, was somehow a bit soulless? Or were we to busy doing what gw customers like to do most. Buying models. I notice there is still no news on sales I mean games day?
Personally I hit a bit of playing burn out when the Sisters codex dropped and they failed to change things again and my army list didn't gain any options for the third codex in a row (plus I moved from NY to MT in March 2013). I'm finally starting to get back into wanting to play again now that I know what I want to play now (I tend to settle into an army and play it for a long period of time without switching which means I'm very bad at initially picking said army).

[Clockwork]

Got a bit of info on this passed my way:

The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board. Some of you may remember when they did something similar during 3rd edition, where they totally overhauled the assault phase, but the edition itself was left alone from that point. Same idea here-- they're folding in the changes in Stronghold Assault into the main rulebook, and quantifying superheavy units and D weapons in the main rules. But that's about it.

[Harley]

Personally I hit a bit of playing burn out when the Sisters codex dropped and they failed to change things again and my army list didn't gain any options for the third codex in a row (plus I moved from NY to MT in March 2013). I'm finally starting to get back into wanting to play again now that I know what I want to play now (I tend to settle into an army and play it for a long period of time without switching which means I'm very bad at initially picking said army).

I feel you there. Luckily though with Stronghold out, Sisters can make decently viable lists again. It is frustrating though, compared to Astra Militarum, how guardsman can be ordered again and again each turn to Ignore Cover Pin their target yet Sisters of Battle can only ever do it once per game, or twice if you buy a 10 point upgrade a dedicated Sister has to carry.

If GW weren't going to actually update and improve the army I really wish they would have just left it alone. At this point the WH codex completely trashes the ebook codex in most every way and I've gotten sick of converting metal models only to have each successive half-dex invalidate them.

[Clockwork]

I feel you there. Luckily though with Stronghold out, Sisters can make decently viable lists again. It is frustrating though, compared to Astra Militarum, how guardsman can be ordered again and again each turn to Ignore Cover Pin their target yet Sisters of Battle can only ever do it once per game, or twice if you buy a 10 point upgrade a dedicated Sister has to carry.
You forgot the 3rd one they get if they buy a special character. :P

But yes, it annoys the heck out of me too.


If GW weren't going to actually update and improve the army I really wish they would have just left it alone. At this point the WH codex completely trashes the ebook codex in most every way and I've gotten sick of converting metal models only to have each successive half-dex invalidate them.
The lack of improvements is why I sent a 20 page document to GW (addressed to Phil Kelly specifically but he passed it to the collective Rules Team since he is not working rules but is doing the lore side of things) outlining pretty much nothing but improvements (I think I did have some downgrades in there but there wasn't much). When I was cautioned about "overegging the pudding" (that is adding too much in that improves things and basically making my preferred faction "too good" I pointed out the reasoning being that it's to make all the options equally viable and useful to the players and as it stands large swathes of the codex are not being used because they're just not well balanced with the stuff that is actually balanced in the game, as well as my changes not taking away the short range and low toughness weaknesses that define the army).

So yeah, I wasn't happy that the new book didn't really help fix anything.

[Mr Mystery]

SoB was a 'get you by' affair, and in that strict context, a pretty decent attempt, when it could have just been some pages in WD.

It's not great, but it's more than they have previously churned out in a similar vein. But those who feel it's all they're ever getting and meant to be a full on Codex have somewhat missed the point.

[Clockwork]

SoB was a 'get you by' affair, and in that strict context, a pretty decent attempt, when it could have just been some pages in WD.

It's not great, but it's more than they have previously churned out in a similar vein. But those who feel it's all they're ever getting and meant to be a full on Codex have somewhat missed the point.

By "get you by" you mean "remove a special character, drop the Serphim Superior and nerf Acts of Faith" because it sure didn't do anything else. Even the WD codex has more of a feeling of change to it than this one.

[Roberto67]

Someone in the UK on another board checked the UK version. It's listed as "available" but apparently you can't add it to your cart.
I just checked the UK site and I can add the Dark Vengeance box to the cart.

[Charon]

SoB was a 'get you by' affair, and in that strict context, a pretty decent attempt, when it could have just been some pages in WD.

It's not great, but it's more than they have previously churned out in a similar vein. But those who feel it's all they're ever getting and meant to be a full on Codex have somewhat missed the point.

That point beeing? They already had a full 2nd edition codex (thats where most of the fluff was copy&pasted from) and people expect nothing less from this edition (and rightfully so). So its not "more than they have previously churned out" because even most dataslates have more original content than the SOB "codex" and they deserve a proper codex like every other army.

[Clockwork]

I just checked the UK site and I can add the Dark Vengeance box to the cart.

I was talking about the rulebook, not Dark Vengeance. DV was pulled from the GWs in English countries, but I haven't heard if it's started to being pulled from the site yet.

[Brent]

Hey, Clockwork-

I know you can't reveal your source for that info ("The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board....").

But can you indicate your level of confidence in the source or the info?

Thanks,

Brent

[Clockwork]

Hey, Clockwork-

I know you can't reveal your source for that info ("The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board....").

But can you indicate your level of confidence in the source or the info?

Thanks,

Brent

Reasonably high. New source but has a decent connections for someone who isn't on the dev team.

But because it's a new source you can take it with extra salt if you'd like.

[Mr Mystery]

You know....this could be the future way forward......

Right now, there's not much wrong with the basic mechanics of the game, and there hasn't been for a long old time. Moving, shooting, assaulting - the bare bones of these haven't changed in yonks.

USR are settled, and all listed in a single place - So relatively little needs doing there, if anything (none of them exactly suck after all)

What does need doing is some work on assault. Currently, firepower is suitably deadly. After all, being shot is not a positive experiene for most, and the shooting phase reflects this. But assault has lagged behind a bit. Nip and tuck here and there should be able to redress that fairly well.

And then a bit of tinkering on vehicle types etc, and there you go.

More or less living ruleset now possible, because the bare bones are fine.

[Clockwork]

You know....this could be the future way forward......

Right now, there's not much wrong with the basic mechanics of the game, and there hasn't been for a long old time. Moving, shooting, assaulting - the bare bones of these haven't changed in yonks.

USR are settled, and all listed in a single place - So relatively little needs doing there, if anything (none of them exactly suck after all)

What does need doing is some work on assault. Currently, firepower is suitably deadly. After all, being shot is not a positive experiene for most, and the shooting phase reflects this. But assault has lagged behind a bit. Nip and tuck here and there should be able to redress that fairly well.

And then a bit of tinkering on vehicle types etc, and there you go.

More or less living ruleset now possible, because the bare bones are fine.

True, if this is the start of a "living rulebook" style of release where every few years they just tinker and fine tune things then I'd be okay with it.

That is assuming all changes are in a pdf file for those who don't want to buy the new book.

[Defenestratus]

Reasonably high. New source but has a decent connections for someone who isn't on the dev team.

But because it's a new source you can take it with extra salt if you'd like.

If its just escalation wrapped up in the new rulebook then why is the escalation book still available and has not been pulled? Why did they pull the psychic card deck if they aren't (presumably) getting touched?

[Wolf Lord Zig]

The last I have heard and once again my shovel of more salt. The mechanics of the game are still the same (which has been the same since 3rd. edition back in '98 which is amazing when you think for any game system). Rumors from my local store is that there is a change with the psychic powers in the rule book, escalation and stronghold put in the book, and a few tweeks here and there to the point that it will need a whole new book and as far as they know there won't be a pdf to update the older book. Also if anyone has noticed there are no FAQ's atleast on the US site for any of the codexes out. As far as why 6th. books still on shelves at the brick and mortar stores: If anyone can remember back from the release of 3rd. and onward nothing was pulled off of shelves till months after the release to still try and sell off old stock. Also, independent stockist's always keep the old stuff around for people that still use the older rules.

[Patrick Boyle]

The last I have heard and once again my shovel of more salt. The mechanics of the game are still the same (which has been the same since 3rd. edition back in '98 which is amazing when you think for any game system). Rumors from my local store is that there is a change with the psychic powers in the rule book, escalation and stronghold put in the book, and a few tweeks here and there to the point that it will need a whole new book and as far as they know there won't be a pdf to update the older book. Also if anyone has noticed there are no FAQ's atleast on the US site for any of the codexes out. As far as why 6th. books still on shelves at the brick and mortar stores: If anyone can remember back from the release of 3rd. and onward nothing was pulled off of shelves till months after the release to still try and sell off old stock. Also, independent stockist's always keep the old stuff around for people that still use the older rules.

The FAQs are hosted on the Black Library's website now, but when they put them up they didn't post any for codexes later than Dark Angels; no FAQs for Chaos Daemons or later books. Most of those books had some FAQs at least, so the implication is they're being rewritten for compatibility with the new book...but they did post the FAQs for all of the 5th ed codexes and the first two 6th ed books, so....yeah. No clue what's up.

[Charistoph]

You know....this could be the future way forward......

Right now, there's not much wrong with the basic mechanics of the game, and there hasn't been for a long old time. Moving, shooting, assaulting - the bare bones of these haven't changed in yonks.

Not quite. There are quite a few differences between 5th and 6th in all three of those categories, just as there was between 4th and 5th. I still have people trying to push 3rd Edition rules in 6th Edition on occasion.


USR are settled, and all listed in a single place - So relatively little needs doing there, if anything (none of them exactly suck after all)

I'll tell the Space Wolves that they were just misinterpreting what "Acute Senses" actually means, then.


What does need doing is some work on assault. Currently, firepower is suitably deadly. After all, being shot is not a positive experiene for most, and the shooting phase reflects this. But assault has lagged behind a bit. Nip and tuck here and there should be able to redress that fairly well.

So, Shooting and Assaulting hasn't changed in Yonks, but Shooting is suitably deadly now and Assaulting needs a nip and tuck?



More or less living ruleset now possible, because the bare bones are fine.

Living ruleset may be possible if they didn't pull the big book down, and we all know that they will be replacing it with an equally expensive big book and the changes will be sufficient to require purchasing it or it's smaller cousin to properly play the updated game.

No, more is being done if this is a big enough release to replace the book than just a concern about Allies, Escalation, and Stronghold Assault.


The FAQs are hosted on the Black Library's website now, but when they put them up they didn't post any for codexes later than Dark Angels; no FAQs for Chaos Daemons or later books. Most of those books had some FAQs at least, so the implication is they're being rewritten for compatibility with the new book...but they did post the FAQs for all of the 5th ed codexes and the first two 6th ed books, so....yeah. No clue what's up.

Space marines is up now.

[Clockwork]

If its just escalation wrapped up in the new rulebook then why is the escalation book still available and has not been pulled? Why did they pull the psychic card deck if they aren't (presumably) getting touched?
Easy enough to offer a possible explanation for: either it's being sold for people with the old rulebook and you won't need the new one, just an errata or the rules will be in the new rulebook but the profiles will require referencing the Escalation book.

[Wolf Lord Zig]

The FAQs are hosted on the Black Library's website now, but when they put them up they didn't post any for codexes later than Dark Angels; no FAQs for Chaos Daemons or later books. Most of those books had some FAQs at least, so the implication is they're being rewritten for compatibility with the new book...but they did post the FAQs for all of the 5th ed codexes and the first two 6th ed books, so....yeah. No clue what's up.

Thank you as I did not know that. Lol I hate change.

[Horncastle]

I was speaking with the owner of my FLGS today and he confirmed that his GW rep said that DV and the BRB have been discontinued; the rep went on to say that something is coming but wouldn't tell the owner what.

[Clockwork]

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/7th-edition-information-there-is-no.html?m=1
Natfka has a second, independent source saying the same as me.

[deinol]

If psychic powers are tweaked to make 2+ re-rollable invulns impossible, there will be much rejoicing.

[Mr Mystery]

Worth noting my local manager was up Warhammer World weekend just gone.

[Clockwork]

Worth noting my local manager was up Warhammer World weekend just gone.

Apparently a lot of managers got pulled in across the UK and Europe.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

It's not uncommon, as management meetings are fairly frequent, but one does wonder.

[Bigred]

We have just been told that WFB style Army Percentage limitations are coming to 40k 7th. More as we get it.

[Clockwork]

From Dakka:

Just wanted to throw in something my Memphis GW source clued me in on.

Apparently (as we all know) there is a "new" rulebook coming out, and it is a corrected/updated version of 6th (not being referred to as either 6.5 or 7th, but unofficially as "Revised 6th" at hq in Memphis), with escalation and strong added in the book, amongst other books/supps, d weapons, and some other stuff. 673 pages, $99.99. New cover. There will be new templates and starter box, plus other items. For GW, they want this to be the same big fanfare of a new (40k reawakening) release, new rules, for newcomers, but keep current players (happy?).

For those who have 6th, and the other books, there's going to be a faq pdf so you can use current books still, apparently. This will be good for another 3 to 4 years.

So I'm being told... (same guy who told me of website change, scions, and astra name/codex...).

[Defenestratus]

we have just been told that wfb style army percentage limitations are coming to 40k 7th. More as we get it.

give us moar larry!

[Clockwork]

From the Lords of War Facebook page:

7e 40K Rulebook comes in a slipcase with 3 books – rules, miniatures showcase, background

[Defenestratus]

From Dakka:

$99 for a FAQ update!

[Clockwork]

$99 for a FAQ update!

FAQ update/roll-up that is apparently over 600 pages thick. And a new cover.

From the sound of things though you won't need it if you have the current book though. Just the FAQ for the old version.

[Patrick Boyle]

From the Lords of War Facebook page:

Interesting. Wonder if there'll be an options for just the individual books

[Tomgar]

Percentages make a lot of sense. Should discourage deathstar HQ units in games under 2000pts and will force people to have a bare minimum of points invested in troops. Utterly sick of two minimum squads of cultists on the table so my opponent can spam Daemon Princes, Heldrakes etc.

Also, I'm pretty fine with Prescience being nerfed. It hurts my Dark Angels but, let's face it, that power is just outright OP.

Just my two cents.

[Clockwork]

Interesting. Wonder if there'll be an options for just the individual books

Knowing GW? Probably not. Still cuts down the size of the book you need to carry everywhere.

[Ang56]

Yeah not really liking the idea of sweeping changes, played every edition since second, this is by far my favorite. I even think the codex's are more balanced then they've been before though I don't play in tournament environments anymore and I could see them being imbalanced with the volume of options available in the hands of min/max players.

I do think this edition is awesome for the casual gaming group who wants lots of options and to not write house rules. Not so much for the tournament side of things. Making a take all comers list this edition would be a nightmare.

That said I really hope that it's just a rebind (or a tweak or the current ruleset) with new art, and faq's. If it happens to include some of the expansions like ppl are rumoring I'll be pretty happy.

Sweeping changes and maybe I'll just convince my group to stick with 6th (pending what they are).

[Gleipnir]

Be nice if they combined materials from Death from the Skies, Kill Team, Carnage, updated Cities of Death and Planetstike into the new Rulebook as well but that would probably thrill too much.

[MajorWesJanson]

Be nice if they combined materials from Death from the Skies, Kill Team, Carnage, updated Cities of Death and Planetstike into the new Rulebook as well but that would probably thrill too much.

The only real useful addition from Death from the Skies is maybe the flier ace rules.
Kill Team and campaign rules would be awesome.
Cities of Death and Planetstrike are pretty well covered with the updated building and fortification rules from stronghold assault, all that is left is different missions and strategems, which seem like obvious options for a set of products like the warzone books for Apoc.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm interested in percentage based army selection.

Worked really well in Warhammer 8th Edition, despite what some might claim.

[daboarder]

I'm interested in percentage based army selection.

Worked really well in Warhammer 8th Edition, despite what some might claim.

Doesnt really work with 40k though.

say you play chaos, but want a terminator themed list?

well the cost difference in terminators compared to cultists means that you are unable to have a significant portion of your force be terminators in a standard 1850 game.

Percentages put huge constraints of themed lists that do not have core troops that fit the theme


EDIT:
one marine specific example.

under likely percentage rules (from the recent BoLS article) a space marine terminator squad is not allowed to purchase a dedicated land raider in games of less than 1850 (and not even that with certain load outs)

stupid idea

edit2: All percentages are llikely to do is drive the game even further to hyper-efficient builds, in poarticular ones that rely either on a single hammer unit that draws its percentage allotment from multiple areas (HQ, ELITE, ALLIES) OR towards spamming effective troops choices and not considering anything else beyond a few force multipliers


edit3: so essentially percentages in 40k would

limit possible themed builds
hinter entire units structures thus driving the size of the game to higher points to include them
not likely combat the 2 perceived problems of spam or deathstars

[Ang56]

Doesnt really work with 40k though.

say you play chaos, but want a terminator themed list?

Agree with the whole post, didn't want to quote the whole thing. I don't think a percentage system would work either. Whatever restrictions they place on strong units people will always min / max.

I enjoy the freedom currently for themed lists, but it allows for some not fun games.

Really it just comes down to the people you play with more then anything. Stacked lists can be fun to fight against if your opponent lets you take a list that has a chance of dealing with it.

Restricting lists like you're talking about would probably help, but not fix the game with balance. You would start facing very similar armies all the time if everyone was forced into % based force org. It would be much more boring in my opinion. And you would just change, not eliminate min max lists.

[Charon]

Percent based lists worked quite ok in 2nd edition and I have to say I never liked the FOC and GW also seems to hate it.
You have so many choices which are "You know this is an HQ choice, but somehow it isnt... you may purchase a number of them but they dont really count..." as well as Formations (lets ignore the FOC) and allies that do not really count as allies but expand your FOC.
This is a gigantic mess. If I had to guess they probably just reintroduce the 2nd edition army comp.

0-50% HQ (could be less but who knows)
25%+ Troops
0-25% Elite
0-25% Fast
0-25% Heavy
0-25% Allies (usually was tied to a restriction e.g.: If you chose allies you couldnt choose heavy support)

It was a little bit easier in 2nd as you had individual lists and no "Elite" or "Fast". There where just Squads (everything), Characters (HQ, including squadleaders) and Support (Tanks and Walkers)
So a typical Chaos army "FOC" was:
0-50% Characters (including every character + equipment)
25% + Squads (including everything from Terminators to Bikes)
0-25% Support (everything from Rhino to Landraider - including Allies!)
0-25% Daemons (everything from Bloodthirster to Nurgling)

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

Currently in Warhammer it breaks down as follows.

Up to 25% Lords, up to 25% Heroes, at least 25% Core, up to 50% Special (but no more than three of a kind, six in a grand army) and up to 25% Rare (no more than two of a kind, four in a grand army).

And I've got to say, I've seen increased variety off the back of that. And with gamers unable to min-max on their core, players have become more adept, and the games all the better for not being able to rely on min-maxed yawn-fests. Currently I'm happy saying Warhammer is more finely balanced than it ever has been, based off the updated Army Books (those with older ones are lagging behind, but each new book has fixed that)

[StraightSilver]

This probably isn't that exciting to anybody else but the poster with the Commissar has a newly designed Aquilla on it. I hope this doesn't replace the current one, although I could understand why they might want a rebranding.

Anyway, enough of that. :)

I for one am in favour of some sort of change to the FOC, not sure if percentages would actually work but I do remember it working pretty well in 2nd Edition.

And seeing as how GW at the moment seem to want to pay homage to the heady days of 2nd Edition I can see them doing the rulebook in 3 parts as that's how second was laid out.

[Mr Mystery]

Doesnt really work with 40k though.

say you play chaos, but want a terminator themed list?

well the cost difference in terminators compared to cultists means that you are unable to have a significant portion of your force be terminators in a standard 1850 game.

Percentages put huge constraints of themed lists that do not have core troops that fit the theme


EDIT:
one marine specific example.

under likely percentage rules (from the recent BoLS article) a space marine terminator squad is not allowed to purchase a dedicated land raider in games of less than 1850 (and not even that with certain load outs)

stupid idea

edit2: All percentages are llikely to do is drive the game even further to hyper-efficient builds, in poarticular ones that rely either on a single hammer unit that draws its percentage allotment from multiple areas (HQ, ELITE, ALLIES) OR towards spamming effective troops choices and not considering anything else beyond a few force multipliers


edit3: so essentially percentages in 40k would

limit possible themed builds
hinter entire units structures thus driving the size of the game to higher points to include them
not likely combat the 2 perceived problems of spam or deathstars

Depends if dedicated transports come out of the Elites allowance or not. We don't know, and so far % lists are just a rumour.

Granted it's a rumour I'd like to believe true, but a rumour all the same.

[daboarder]

if they do, then they dont work in that situation

if they dont?

then good luck fielding any form of mechanised army with more than basic troops as those transports are going to eat up a huge chunk of your points while not counting to minimum troops.

and yes they are rumour, ones I believe are not true as I do not think 40k as a game works with % with the lists as they currently are.

[Mr Mystery]

Also worth noting the percentages for Warhammer are surprisingly generous.

50% Special (which could probably allow FA and Elite in 40k) gets you some decent sized units. But more importantly, allows for a greater variety of smaller units.

Consider Nids, and their still slightly over populated Elite section. Some stuff misses out on selection not because it's necessarily bad in itself, but because there are just stronger options out there. Loosen up the '3 and you're done' rule, and the variety opens up nicely.

[Charon]

Consider Nids, and their still slightly over populated Elite section. Some stuff misses out on selection not because it's necessarily bad in itself, but because there are just stronger options out there. Loosen up the '3 and you're done' rule, and the variety opens up nicely.

This is one of the very reasons I dislike the FOC. You are getting punished if you have many rather cheap choices in a section cause after 3 picks its over. No matter if you spent 150 points or 600 and that is hard to balance in itself. This is where you can actually reconsider units. Obliterators are very good in their slot because they are not only reliable but also "slot efficient". Now take into consideration that you could field 2 Vindicators for each Obliterator Squad - or 8 autocannons, or 2 all-lascannon Predators...
In some cases it will open up more choices, in others it will limit choices. Not very different to now but the overall distribution (allies, Formations, "not really allies") is easier to handle.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy.

Anything which can help simplify is welcome in my book, especially as it generally means more variety in lists encountered.

[lattd]

Percentages would give tyranids a massive boost, if we had the 50% hq, 50%, elite, 25% minimum core, 50% fast and 50% heavy you have a crazy amount of flexibility.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

And Venomthropes up the wazoo, and very smoggy battlefield! :D

[daboarder]

venomthropes are hardly all that these days, they are great for their points, but you should only have 1 brood in your lists.

theres too much ignores cover out there these days for more

[Charon]

venomthropes are hardly all that these days, they are great for their points, but you should only have 1 brood in your lists.

You "should only have one" because you can afford only one without suffering a penalty from missing other vital elite units. With % you can have this cake and eat it too as you are not limited by pick but only by points.

[daboarder]

I disagree. I dont think that nids are very crammed in the elites anymore.

certainly not enough that Id want to loose the ability to run a pair of hive tyrants to unlock it

[Mr Mystery]

Yarp.

Imagine being able to field Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Hive Guard and Lictors, all in support of broods. That'd be ace cakes that would.

[daboarder]

actually Id only field more zoanthropes if anything, and so would most nid players

which was my point

[Mr Mystery]

Still greater variety out there for opponents.

And seriously dude, 'most players'. Careful on the sweeping statements.

[isotope99]

But you also get silly stuff like unlimited numbers of 3 man melta gun squads with coteaz, or single-man hammer paladins with draigo all able to fire off their holocaust psychic blast power individually using the brotherhood of psykers rule. Like many things, it could work if the game was re-designed from scratch but the shackles of the current codex range bite hard.

On the flip side, I don't want to have to take 25% (or worse 40%!) of boring to paint and play daemon troops to field a valid daemon army.

[daboarder]

Still greater variety out there for opponents.

And seriously dude, 'most players'. Careful on the sweeping statements.
huh? most players?

No I've not made any statement as to what other nid players would like. EDIT: Oh I did....yeah no Id still stand by that, I dont think nid players would be lining up to run haruspex.....

But as a member of the hive, I can imagine that they'd be pretty pissed being told they cant field 2 hive tyrants.....actually 2 anything

see the only other Tyranid HQ unit that would fit in the list with a hive tyrant and fit under the proposed caps would be say deathleaper or a tyranid prime.....

Look you can believe what you want, and these are only rumours, but for the reasons I pointed out in my original post I dont think that percentages would do for the game what you would want....and variety is not something they are likely to introduce


But you also get silly stuff like unlimited numbers of 3 man melta gun squads with coteaz, or single-man hammer paladins with draigo all able to fire off their holocaust psychic blast power individually using the brotherhood of psykers rule. Like many things, it could work if the game was re-designed from scratch but the shackles of the current codex range bite hard.

On the flip side, I don't want to have to take 25% (or worse 40%!) of boring to paint and play daemon troops to field a valid daemon army.

this too

[Defenestratus]

So I like the percentage system. It worked fine in 2nd edition and it will work fine in this one too. I just went back and put my three favorite Eldar lists into the new rumored percentage structure that Larry posted last night and they all almost fit. My Iyanden list was a little heavy in heavies and my warp spider list was too heavy in fast attack by a few points and that's about it.

Also I'm liking what I'm hearing about prescience moving away from the primaris slot. Makes my Eldar farseer powers a lot nicer.

Posting it here since nobody else seems to have yet:


First up - Percentage FOC limits (like in Warhammer Fantasy):

40%+ Troops

10%-30% HQ (single character HQ Warlords can break this limit)

<20% Elite

<25% Fast

<25% Heavy

<25% Lords of War

<20% Fortifications...can take multiple fortifications

<25% Allies, Secondary Detachments, or Allied Army Formations

<50% Primary Army Formations

Some noteable pain points for us Eldar players:

1) No more 3 WK builds. The most you could ever take in 2000pts is 2 and those would be the HWC variety.

2) If you're gonna run WG, then you'd better be taking a spiritseer because one decently spec'd squad is going to take up your whole Elites allotment. (Second look at fire dragons?)

3) Our expensive flyers are going to make it tough to take spiders/hawks/spears PLUS a flyer for anti air. The lack of anti-air options in the codex are really going to start hurting I think. (Thank God nightwings are still cheap)

4) About the only SH we can take in 2k is the Lynx. Which sucks as a SH.


Some Good things?
1) Wave serpents presumably count towards troops, so those of you that rely on serpent spam as a boring crutch will still have that going for you (although I think that I should have put that under pain points)

2) We have some pretty decent troops and with the spiritseer to move around WG I'm pretty happy with the breakdown above.

[daboarder]

wouldn't want to be an ork player at 2k

4 times 30 boyz hordes in EVERY SINGLE LIST that isnt running a warboss

[Harley]

I sincerely hope it's not 50% elite, fast etc... Riptide spam needs to be fixed, as does Daemonprince spam, which both account for 2 of the 4 lists right now that are breaking the game.

The transport problem is solved by just saying <25% but may be exceeded by a single unit and it's transport. That way you can have your uber unit but it's still just 1 unit and suffers the weaknesses of 1 unit, rather than spamming 3 ubers. A system like this would work perfectly imo.

Now if they could only use this opportunity to FAQ fix some of the broken rules like Riptides and ICs and Voidshield paradox...

[Defenestratus]

I sincerely hope it's not 50% elite, fast etc... Riptide spam needs to be fixed, as does Daemonprince spam, which both account for 2 of the 4 lists right now that are breaking the game.


Read my post.

<25% Heavy/FA

<20% Elites, meaning you could take at most, 2 riptides I think in 2k points.

[Lord Asterion]

wouldn't want to be an ork player at 2k

4 times 30 boyz hordes in EVERY SINGLE LIST that isnt running a warboss

Based on the current codex. Also, no one plays at 2000 points and anyway, the HQs for Orks mean that they can either take Nobs (huge point sink) or Deff Dredds (pretty pricey) as Troops

And why wouldn't you want 120 boyz in a list at that point value? I use at least 90 at 1000 points.

[Harley]

Read my post.

<25% Heavy/FA

<20% Elites, meaning you could take at most, 2 riptides I think in 2k points.

It was in reference to the Fantasy %50 special(Elite) allotment.

Side note; They really need a mission though where Elites play a role as currently in most codex they are trash units. Most tourneys in the Midwest USA use standard BRB missions so you're always aiming to score with your Fast and Heavys when not just Troops.


Based on the current codex. Also, no one plays at 2000 points and anyway, the HQs for Orks mean that they can either take Nobs (huge point sink) or Deff Dredds (pretty pricey) as Troops

And why wouldn't you want 120 boyz in a list at that point value? I use at least 90 at 1000 points.

If the current trend is any indication, there will be no "counts as troops" in the new Ork dex. 6th seems to be mostly about an army only having 2 troop options with few exceptions, so I wouldn't be surprised if you see just Boyz and Nobz as troops with Kan lists being a thing of the past.

[Defenestratus]

Also, no one plays at 2000 points

2000 points is the standard size game at every LGS that I've been a part of.

[Arkhan Land]

I think its kind of brutal of GW to include SA and ESCL rules in the BRB, you know they arent going to give you any datasheets so its basically like being "hey when you get shot with this, this is what happens..." my only hope is that perhaps we will see some updated and even more damaging psychic powers to either a)counter the SA ESCL problem or perhaps there will be a lot more pro-cc powers maybe something negating overwatch or adding bonus distances/attacks/saves

[Lord Asterion]

2000 points is the standard size game at every LGS that I've been a part of.

I've never seen anyone actually play more than 1850

[daboarder]

Can you imagine having to bring up to 2500 pts to a 1850 game?


cause GW apparently can


FoC removed, percentages added.

Players have a "sideboard" of up to X number of selections (2-5, bracketed on points, so 1k or less games you have 2 sideboards, at 3k+ you have 5).

Sideboards can't be more than 25% of the total, or can be none at all.

They are referred to as "Secondary Detachments."

They are used for anything from allies to just additional things from your own codex.

If they are allies, then they require an HQ and a troop, and are still bound by the 25% of total.

Both players are expected to have sideboards.

Sideboarding is now a part of the game, done before deployment but in order of turn priority. So the person going first, picks their sideboard first after learning what race their opponent is playing, and seeing 75% of their army (and the available sideboards).

The person going second then picks their sideboard, after their opponent has selected, but before either side deploys.
----------------------------
Other tweeks include assaulting as a form of sweeping advance/consolidation.

The option to flee, in response to being charged (after overwatching) but there is the potential to be swept and the unit charging can (if they have the movement and sweep you) just hit a different unit provided it's in the same rough direction as the unit they swept.

[Gleipnir]

Don't see any advantages to a strict % based system for narrative play, It simply restricts army lists more, where all the codex supplements and mini-dexes and dataslates have been opening up army build options combined with the allies matrix. If they really are just repackaging rules into the core BRB with errata, a % based army build list as rumored would invalidate much of the effect of the most recent releases.

Take the Skyblight Swarm composed on upwards of 900 points of Fast Attack units, if the % rumors are true it would not be eligible for use at all apart from in an army in excess of 3000 points in your % examples. The Imperial Knights have no battlefield role at all currently. It runs counter to all the most recent releases.

Lord of War and Fortifications might get a restriction for the sake of limiting D weapons to double forge organization games but I don't buy into a complete scrapping of the FOC for a Fantasy % based system.

[Defenestratus]

Yeah I don't like that new rumor from Faeit about "Sideboards"

It just seems to me to prolong the actual setup of the game instead of making it shorter.

[Mr Mystery]

Can you imagine having to bring up to 2500 pts to a 1850 game?


cause GW apparently can

Nah. Sounds like monkey man-parts to me matey. Some dreamt up Tournament wish list.

[Al Shut]

I tend to use expensive units rather than lots of cheaper ones with not much balance between the different army sections so on first sight I'd say %would restrict me a good deal more than the FOC. I sense a financially crippling restructuring of my armies on the way.

[Mr Mystery]

If it's even true.

It's all just rumours at the moment.

[eldargal]

I think it's all bollocks personally.

[Wolfshade]

Sideboard seems to be dug out of Sifto mine...

[Mr Mystery]

Now then, corroborating sources (that is not say confirmed) say it's 6th Ed FAQ'd up the wazoo.

Nothing else corroborated as yet.

[Lord Asterion]

The percentages thing is interesting and I think it would help the game personally, but I really don't see it happening, its too much of a rewrite. i think what we're seeing is lots of rumours flooding in at once from 4chan because they know that Natfka will publish anything

[Eldar_Atog]

Also I'm liking what I'm hearing about prescience moving away from the primaris slot. Makes my Eldar farseer powers a lot nicer.


Same here. Being able to take both Guide and Prescience is a little ridiculous. If Prescience is no longer the primaris power, I do wonder if you'll see a lot more Eldar allies just for the Farseer.

[Defenestratus]

Same here. Being able to take both Guide and Prescience is a little ridiculous. If Prescience is no longer the primaris power, I do wonder if you'll see a lot more Eldar allies just for the Farseer.

Would it be any worse than it is now?

"Hey lets bring our friendly farseer along to our company picnic!"

[Eldar_Atog]

"Hey lets bring our friendly farseer along to our company picnic!"

Hey, her potato salad is out of this world :)

[DrBored]

It's the same crap that happened before 6th came out. Percentages, crazy zany rules, none of which panned out.

I can't wait for it to just come out already so people can stop this raving nonsense and move on with their lives.

There's people already claiming they're selling their armies because of RUMORS. It's great.

[Clockwork]

More from Lords of War on Facebook:

A new Realm of Battle board will be released with 7th edition. This board will have a "40k/City" theme and will be 6' x 4' with a travel bag like the current Realm of Battle Board.

Is calling BS on the whole "percentages" for your forces in 40K.

[deinol]

Totally removing the FOC, sideboards, and other drastic changes seem very counter to the "It's just 6th edition revised with FAQ updates" rumor.

Which set seems more likely to be true?

[Defenestratus]

Totally removing the FOC, sideboards, and other drastic changes seem very counter to the "It's just 6th edition revised with FAQ updates" rumor.

Which set seems more likely to be true?

Hopefully the part where there are more changes and not less.

Embrace change! Point and laugh at those who purposely spent money on armies that break the spirit of the game and who are going to now get screwed over.

The schadenfreude is thick as molasses for me :)

[lattd]

Just seen this on 40k radio's facebook page.

Ok, it seems a nasty rumor is making its way around the interwebs. Many forums are saying 40k 7th is switching over to % based lists. We are here to 100% confirm that is not happening.

We have always told you guys the truth about everything in the past 12 months. Our source has been spot on with everything from release schedules to what each army will have.

So please rest easy knowing that force org will still be in the game.

These are facts, not rumors from your trusted source for insider 40k news, not rumors.

[Defenestratus]

So please rest easy knowing that force org will still be in the game.

These are facts, not rumors from your trusted source for insider 40k news, not rumors.

Well bullocks.

Back to more riptide spam.

[Eldar_Atog]

Well bullocks.

Back to more riptide spam.

I'm kinda relieved myself. There are plenty of problems with the FOC but percentages just seemed like a vast minefield of problems to me.

[Clockwork]

40k Radio's post verbatim:



Ok, it seems a nasty rumor is making its way around the interwebs. Many forums are saying 40k 7th is switching over to % based lists. We are here to 100% confirm that is not happening.

We have always told you guys the truth about everything in the past 12 months. Our source has been spot on with everything from release schedules to what each army will have.

So please rest easy knowing that force org will still be in the game.

These are facts, not rumors from your trusted source for insider 40k news, not rumors.

[Defenestratus]

I'm kinda relieved myself. There are plenty of problems with the FOC but percentages just seemed like a vast minefield of problems to me.

I disagree. The FOC, especially in its current incarnation is a mess. Its like it doesn't even matter anymore. A percentage system is simple to apply and adhere to. These days You have to consult 3 rulebooks, a codex, a supplement, a datafax and the FAQs just to make sure your list fits inside of a legal FOC. Totally ridiculous.

[Wolf Lord Zig]

I'm kinda relieved myself. There are plenty of problems with the FOC but percentages just seemed like a vast minefield of problems to me.

I honestly have no problem with percentages as you needed it for second and also you needed it for 3rd. As far as the tournament scene went at that time. My only complaints now are allies which should be gone as far as sharing of psychic and other abilities. It should be army specific. Also I do not like hull points. And my biggest gripe is that the game reminds me of MTG card game where it was combo after combo of colors. To me it's that way for the allies matrix and you have to build combo lists either be it with eldar/tau, chaos/chaos, etc., etc... what happened to guys who run one style army without allies as the old ways were. I know it's about buying more stuff but tournament wise, I have lost all interest in tournaments as of now which was always a big part for me at the big events. Lol sorry about the soap box but just my opinion.

[deinol]

Well bullocks.

Back to more riptide spam.

I'd much rather face riptide spam than a 2++ re-rollable deathstar. A bolt gun or shuriken catapult has better odds of wounding a riptide than a deathstar.

[Defenestratus]

I'd much rather face riptide spam than a 2++ re-rollable deathstar.

Well keeping the current FOC isn't going to change the 2++ rerollable deathstar.

Only a swift kick to the balls of the player that is fielding it will really resolve that.

[Clockwork]

Well keeping the current FOC isn't going to change the 2++ rerollable deathstar.

Only a swift kick to the balls of the player that is fielding it will really resolve that.
% wasn't going to change it either.

[deinol]

Well keeping the current FOC isn't going to change the 2++ rerollable deathstar.

Only a swift kick to the balls of the player that is fielding it will really resolve that.

Right, but the rumored changes to psychic powers will make it a lot harder to pull off (prescience not being primaris, and requiring 2 warp charges).

It's not like going to percentages would fix the deathstar, only changes to psychic powers and battle-brothers.

[Defenestratus]

% wasn't going to change it either.

Well without the full picture/ruleset we'd never really know.

Also, I've heard that 40k Radio's 100% reliable source was canned months ago. Their information could be outdated.

[Charon]

% wasn't going to change it either.

You cant field an 800 Points seerstar when you only have 500 points for HQ at 2000 points.
Anything you detract from the seerstar (such as the 2nd farseer or a few warlocks) will make it considerable weaker as it relies heavily on the psi powers.
You can even be extremely unlucky and roll no Fortune while your Warlocks with +1 to AR either miss their test or blow up (as my wife demonstrated).

[Eldar_Atog]

I disagree. The FOC, especially in its current incarnation is a mess. Its like it doesn't even matter anymore. A percentage system is simple to apply and adhere to. These days You have to consult 3 rulebooks, a codex, a supplement, a datafax and the FAQs just to make sure your list fits inside of a legal FOC. Totally ridiculous.


You would still be consulting all those books/pdfs with a percentage system. I agree that the FOC has gotten ridiculous but there's a much simplier solution to the problem. Force the core army and any allies to use a single FOC chart. No more armies running around with like 4 hq's, 4 heldrakes, or 4 riptides.

[Clockwork]

Well without the full picture/ruleset we'd never really know.

Also, I've heard that 40k Radio's 100% reliable source was canned months ago. Their information could be outdated.
I doubt the rules for the edition that is being released changed that much honestly even if that is true. Things have to be printed well in advance of the release so I highly doubt things switched up that much after any possible canning.

More like GW is flushing bad info out to see who is leaking and pink slip them like they seem to do every year is leading to rumors like the % thing.

[Harley]

This sideboard rumor is a logical fallacy. You can already sideboard. Scenario:

"Oh hey John's up at the FLGS, I know John plays Aircron spam, in that case I'll pull out this other list from my folder and use the extra anti-aircraft models I brought with me instead of that other list I was going to use."

It's simple, it's not kill-listing or douchy, in fact it's the way that GW intends the game to be played. If people just need it spelled out for them because they like to pretend they are on chat-roulette blind dating when playing 40k games then I guess it helps them. For the rest of us it changes nothing and event organizers will still make up their own house rules.

[Defenestratus]

You would still be consulting all those books/pdfs with a percentage system.

Not really. All I'd have to do is find out if that "detachment" is 500 points or more.

[Eldar_Atog]

Not really. All I'd have to do is find out if that "detachment" is 500 points or more.

Which you would find by looking in a book/pdf :)

[Defenestratus]

Which you would find by looking in a book/pdf :)

Not really. All I'd have to do is look on the other player's roster which has point values on it.

But you keep on rollin with your FOC lovin'. Its a clunky, unwieldy design that has outgrown its original specification.

[StarWarsDoug]

Not really. All I'd have to do is look on the other player's roster which has point values on it.

But you keep on rollin with your FOC lovin'. Its a clunky, unwieldy design that has outgrown its original specification.

Unless the other player decided to flub some numbers here and there in the roster. This has been a regular occurrence at local tournaments here with many people now banned.

[Defenestratus]

Unless the other player decided to flub some numbers here and there in the roster. This has been a regular occurrence at local tournaments here with many people now banned.

Thats not a problem specific to any game design however. Dumb people who care more about proving their prowess with toy soldiers than having fun will cheat. This is known. It doesn't matter if they're using a FOC or a percentage based system.

[DarkLink]

% wasn't going to change it either.


Actually, yes, they would. None of the stars are legal if you're limited to 25% hq and 25% elites. You can take much, much weaker versions of them and still technically get a rerollable 2+, but the seer council would only have like four guys in it compared to ten warlocks, the baron, and two farseers.

[Clockwork]

Actually, yes, they would. None of the stars are legal if you're limited to 25% hq and 25% elites. You can take much, much weaker versions of them and still technically get a rerollable 2+, but the seer council would only have like four guys in it compared to ten warlocks, the baron, and two farseers.
And then a week later a new meta with new deathstars crops up.

% doesn't stop death stars in Fantasy, it can't stop it in 40k either.

[Eldar_Atog]

Not really. All I'd have to do is look on the other player's roster which has point values on it.

But you keep on rollin with your FOC lovin'. Its a clunky, unwieldy design that has outgrown its original specification.

Ahh, you are talking about the other player. I am talking about when you yourself are building an army list. I don't usually worry over the opponent's list.

[daboarder]

Actually, yes, they would. None of the stars are legal if you're limited to 25% hq and 25% elites. You can take much, much weaker versions of them and still technically get a rerollable 2+, but the seer council would only have like four guys in it compared to ten warlocks, the baron, and two farseers.

Thats assuming warlocks would count towards the %, Im willing to bet that "slotless" units would not

[Bigred]

via Lords of War (https://www.facebook.com/Lordsofwargaming?ref=br_tf) Gaming:


"A new Realm of Battle board will be released with 7th edition. This board will have a "40k/City" theme and will be 6' x 4' with a travel bag like the current Realm of Battle Board."

"[Lords of War Gaming] is calling BS on the whole "percentages" for your forces in 40K."

"The next 40k army after Orks will be Space Wolves. Stay tuned for more information on Orks and Space Wolf releases."

[daboarder]

hmmm may actually fork out for a RoB this time.

Ive tried to start my own boards time and time again and it just never takes off for me

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I hear ya, I suck at making terrain -_-

Orks and Wolves next sounds good though. Orks are fairly easy to predict what plastic kits they'll get, but what about Wolves? a flier? those werewolf dudes?

[daboarder]

I hear ya, I suck at making terrain -_-

Orks and Wolves next sounds good though. Orks are fairly easy to predict what plastic kits they'll get, but what about Wolves? a flier? those werewolf dudes?

easy, wolves are getting "fly-fox" riders, they are a unit of 1-3 FMC's with a statline similar to tyranid warriors, but with 3+ saves

actually wolves will be the first non SM codex from its generation that we'll see updated. The DA release was more the DA matching the previous SW, BA, GK releases.

wulfen wwould be cool but they'd need a kit to share space with given GWs penchant for dual kits

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

easy, wolves are getting "fly-fox" riders, they are a unit of 1-3 FMC's with a statline similar to tyranid warriors, but with 3+ saves

actually wolves will be the first non SM codex from its generation that we'll see updated. The DA release was more the DA matching the previous SW, BA, GK releases.

wulfen wwould be cool but they'd need a kit to share space with given GWs penchant for dual kits

IIRC it was only really the heads and arms on the Wulfen that were "wolfy", so yeah I'm sure they'd do as a duel kit I agree.

[MajorWesJanson]

via Lords of War (https://www.facebook.com/Lordsofwargaming?ref=br_tf) Gaming:

New RoB board sounds nice, but didn't FW already do some city tiles?

No to percentages and Space Wolves after Orks both sound about right.

[daboarder]

New RoB board sounds nice, but didn't FW already do some city tiles?

No to percentages and Space Wolves after Orks both sound about right.

yeah they do, but a 4X4 FW board is way more expensive than the ROB tiles, and they have a bad habit of warping unfortunately.

[legalsmash]

Pretty exciting.

Shall I begin the rampant speculation as to the changes?

Allies Matrix is going to get changed and either Battle Brothers disappears completely or its changed in a manner so that you cannot transfer powers/abilities between units from different FOC's/Codexes.

Psychic powers are going to change and I think you'll see some warp charge 2 divination powers and a change to prescience. The IG PBS and the farseer powers both lead me to believe that Divination is the going to change. I also think that the powers that Bugs have access to will change for the better, and Pyromancy will get some nasty goodies.

USRs get an overhaul. Skyfire no longer will snap fire on ground targets but wont be as good at hitting flyers. Ignores cover will take away shrouded/stealth.

Challenges will become less of a "bad decision vs an even worse decision" for the underdog.

Escalation (hopefully) and Stronghold assault become just part of the core rulebook.
Agree here. I'd really like them to consolidate the books, maybe make a decent effort to not screw up the USR section further and explain actual conflicts in the present ruleset.



7th Edition rulebook. 985 pages of fluff. 2 pages of rules. Rules boil down to 1.9 pages of terrain and model setup, and the rest explaining game play, below:

"Once all models have been placed. The player who set up first rolls a d6 to attempt to win the game. On a 6+ the game is over and that player wins. Play alternates to each player in this manner until one player wins or the end of Turn 7. Depending on which armies are on the table each player may take modifiers to their roll as follows:

Space Marines: +1
Eldar: +5
Chaos Daemons: +3
Tau: +4
Astra Militarum: +2
All Others: -4

And remember the Golden rule: We get all your gold."

I want to say this is facetious, but its hilarious. Last line is true though.


1) based on what exactly? the only time I've seen it being bad was the change from 2nd to 3rd, but that made sense for them as they wanted to change the game from a skirmish sized game to mass combat

2) You're basing this on something you have said earlier on in the thread, its likely NOT a sales driver, rules take a lot of writing and big books like that are expensive, I doubt they're high profit items, if they wanted to drive up sales, model releases would do better

3) No one it saying it will all work out, I'm just saying moaning about it is pointless.

Re 2nd to 3rd, too right, change from skirmish to platoon/company sized game took focus off the herohammer style of the day. I have an old WD batrep of wolves versus eldar from 2nd ed, a ridiculous amount of points were spent on JUST the characters, and the wolves had like MAYBE 20 marines on field?


True, if this is the start of a "living rulebook" style of release where every few years they just tinker and fine tune things then I'd be okay with it.

That is assuming all changes are in a pdf file for those who don't want to buy the new book.

I'd love a living rule set, but I don't want to get fleeced out of 99 every two years because they wanted to push something through. This is a game, whether competitive or fun-play, its not a "hangover after morning after cheesecake factory turd to be pushed out as messily as possible. to me this is why the sixth ed was oddly received. Fliers issues could have been solved by just issuing global option for flakk missiles in addition to the aegis and whatnot. I'm not saying its not fine to push the terrain thing, but dude, I'd prefer my eldar not need to steal a defense line, box it up, ship it over to a warzone and set up their paper fortress before the game starts. Even if they had more than imperial terrain, I'd prefer to NOT be forced to take allies or bring a kitchen sink to deal with a flier, if I'm not playing a flier that day (Wolves for instance).


If psychic powers are tweaked to make 2+ re-rollable invulns impossible, there will be much rejoicing.

Dude I am SO annoyed by global changes to the cards, I really like my cards and having them invalidated is going to suck. This is the one thing I will foam about (RABBLE!)

From Dakka:


Indeed.

Currently in Warhammer it breaks down as follows.

Up to 25% Lords, up to 25% Heroes, at least 25% Core, up to 50% Special (but no more than three of a kind, six in a grand army) and up to 25% Rare (no more than two of a kind, four in a grand army).

And I've got to say, I've seen increased variety off the back of that. And with gamers unable to min-max on their core, players have become more adept, and the games all the better for not being able to rely on min-maxed yawn-fests. Currently I'm happy saying Warhammer is more finely balanced than it ever has been, based off the updated Army Books (those with older ones are lagging behind, but each new book has fixed that)

I think percentage systems are a great idea. Playing both WHF and 40K over multiple editions, I think the change in 8th ed to fantasy from 0-1 0-2 units to percentages really let you have variety in the armies. In 40K I felt hamstringed by the old 0-1 limits on veterans, etc. however, percentage based limitaitons, particularly when coupled with character based troop choice changes (logan wing, draigowing, wraithstomp, khornelordzerkergang, etc) lets you have enough variety without making it unduly restrictive on list creativity, esp if your elites and HS are able to eat a significant portion, maybe based on what warlord trait you get or a specific rule (like the centurions at elite and heavy in the sentinels of terra book.


So I like the percentage system. It worked fine in 2nd edition and it will work fine in this one too. I just went back and put my three favorite Eldar lists into the new rumored percentage structure that Larry posted last night and they all almost fit. My Iyanden list was a little heavy in heavies and my warp spider list was too heavy in fast attack by a few points and that's about it.

Also I'm liking what I'm hearing about prescience moving away from the primaris slot. Makes my Eldar farseer powers a lot nicer.

Posting it here since nobody else seems to have yet:



Some noteable pain points for us Eldar players:

1) No more 3 WK builds. The most you could ever take in 2000pts is 2 and those would be the HWC variety.

2) If you're gonna run WG, then you'd better be taking a spiritseer because one decently spec'd squad is going to take up your whole Elites allotment. (Second look at fire dragons?)

3) Our expensive flyers are going to make it tough to take spiders/hawks/spears PLUS a flyer for anti air. The lack of anti-air options in the codex are really going to start hurting I think. (Thank God nightwings are still cheap)

4) About the only SH we can take in 2k is the Lynx. Which sucks as a SH.


Some Good things?
1) Wave serpents presumably count towards troops, so those of you that rely on serpent spam as a boring crutch will still have that going for you (although I think that I should have put that under pain points)

2) We have some pretty decent troops and with the spiritseer to move around WG I'm pretty happy with the breakdown above.

As another eldar player, I agree here. I gotta say though that unless its friendly games of APOC with friends, I don't run multiple wraithknight builds. I do enjoy doing Iyanden lists on occasion, but between the WS and Wraithblade/dudes AND the five man spirit seers and a farseer, it gets expensive quick.

As for the fast attack, honestly, I use spiders in regular games, have YET to bring out my hawks, and my spears are STILL collecting dust... the hunter, on the other hand has seen a LOT of use. In larger games I have run two especially v. necron and/or spacemarine or guard combos with vendettas. Almost every game they paid for themselves before eating it.

As I stated before I am not a fan of changes to the cards because I actually bought them... yes. I am being fickle here.

I think our psychic powers, (and the ones we can pick out of the BRB, whatever they are, should be better than most otehr armies' psyker options..... we are the psychic ninja elves, after all.

I hate to see what significant changes to cover will do here... but at the same time, if it improves the way cover works, my pathfinders can full disco more often.

I'd also say re six point 1, 7th, whatever its called that I hope they make assault more decisive. AFAIC they should take a page out of the FOW book and make armor saves less available in assault. If you get assaulted by a bezerker squad, tarpitting shouldn't be so effective... they should be able to tear through fire warriors and standard guardsmen with abandon. Same for walkers, I REALLY hope they unscrew dreads. Not just for the sake of the... six? I have, but just because they are such an awesome part of the lore and game and the fact that they suck so hard this past edition is beyond incomprehensible, imho.

Also, while total wishlisting, having assets ala apocalypse in regular games to represent either favorable or unfavorable battle conditions would be pretty cool

Last, for the love of god, make terrain go down BEFORE the stupid fortifications... you came to fight on X world, not X world was arranged upon which you could fight.... bah.

[DarkLink]

And then a week later a new meta with new deathstars crops up.

Like what? If there was anything good enough to be game breaking, it would have shown up at some point. That's not to say that there aren't other problems with the game, but percentages stop every game-breaking deathstar that any 40k codex can build. Except maybe the beast pack, that thing's actually pretty cheap.

[Charon]

Like what? If there was anything good enough to be game breaking, it would have shown up at some point. That's not to say that there aren't other problems with the game, but percentages stop every game-breaking deathstar that any 40k codex can build. Except maybe the beast pack, that thing's actually pretty cheap.

Which would not be a big issue as DE will get a new codex anyways.

[Clockwork]

Like what? If there was anything good enough to be game breaking, it would have shown up at some point. That's not to say that there aren't other problems with the game, but percentages stop every game-breaking deathstar that any 40k codex can build. Except maybe the beast pack, that thing's actually pretty cheap.

It only stops the ones that can only be built with this system, it doesn't prevent them from being stopped completely. Players will always find new ways to break games. It why GW needs to be more on the ball with FAQs to fix these problems.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Allies Matrix is going to get changed and either Battle Brothers disappears completely or its changed in a manner so that you cannot transfer powers/abilities between units from different FOC's/Codexes.

I suspect the latter myself, also I hope the fix some of the weird unfluffy match ups like Space marines being Battle bro with tau and IG not being BBs with them


Psychic powers are going to change and I think you'll see some warp charge 2 divination powers and a change to prescience. The IG PBS and the farseer powers both lead me to believe that Divination is the going to change.

Why do you think that?

If they do change them and we have to buy a new deck of Power cards I hope the box is big enough to fit all the extra decks in it...


I also think that the powers that Bugs have access to will change for the better, and Pyromancy will get some nasty goodies.

Doubt it, Nids only had core ook powers as a stop gap, they only ever had their own powers back in 2nd ed. Nid players really need to let go of this. At least they got to play with the main powers for a year, Ork players didn't even get that.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Thats assuming warlocks would count towards the %, Im willing to bet that "slotless" units would not

Actually I bet they would count, and the inclusion of an arseload of slotless HQs in the Astra Milawhatsit disproves this rumour.

[DarkLink]

Like what?

The fundamental problem with deathstars isn't that they're good. It's that they currently have certain mechanics that effectively break the game. That basically means rerollable saves, or in the case of the O'vesastar, phenomenal shooting that basically auto-wounds/penetrates with only invulnerable saves allowed on an extremely durable platform for a criminally low cost.

Remove the rerollable 2+, and the game is pretty much un-broken, as least as far as deathstars are concerned. They're still pretty powerful, but they're no longer unkillable. It's a huge step in the right direction. Yet you would just throw up your hands in defeat and give up because the game still wouldn't be perfectly balanced?

Sure, players will always find the most powerful units. That's why it's incumbent upon the game designers to create a system that isn't broken. Using it as an excuse to try and weasel out of that, though, is like whining to your mom that you can't mow the lawn and take out the garbage and do your homework because "it's too much work". Granted, GW doesn't allow its game designers to actually playtest enough (why waste time playtesting when instead you can pump out more overpriced rulebooks?), but if they can use 7th to improve the game even a little, how is that a bad thing?

[Clockwork]

DarkLink, you're not getting my point so I'm going to lay it out as clearly as possible:

Just slapping a percentage system on 40k won't be enough to fix it.

To fix 40k it needs to be done over, from scratch. And I highly doubt this new rulebook will be doing that.

[Charon]

To fix 40k it needs to be done over, from scratch. And I highly doubt this new rulebook will be doing that.

Nope.
You just have to fix whats broken. And there are quite few (but glaring) issues.
Most of them come from Allies, stacking and very few absurd unit choices.

Percentage System fixes the first two without much efford. the last one is an issue we will ALWAYS see. Even games (which are easy supportable by updates und have a dedicated designer/programmer team) will have these issues. Everything else is just a small tweak. You wont ever achieve "balance", you dont even need too. Dice do that for you. You need imbalances cause in a 100% balanced game of 40k there would be a "best army list" for each army and it just would come down to move and dice luck.

[Lord Asterion]

DarkLink, you're not getting my point so I'm going to lay it out as clearly as possible:

Just slapping a percentage system on 40k won't be enough to fix it.

To fix 40k it needs to be done over, from scratch. And I highly doubt this new rulebook will be doing that.

40k doesn't need to be fixed, it does what its designed to do well, which is sell miniatures to people who want to use them to play games with friends. It needs a few tweaks here and there to make it a bit better, but it doesn't need an overhaul.

- - - Updated - - -



If they do change them and we have to buy a new deck of Power cards I hope the box is big enough to fit all the extra decks in it...


This is a real gripe, i've bought all the decks mainly because I like the cards and the box size is really annoying

[Charistoph]

Nope.
You just have to fix whats broken. And there are quite few (but glaring) issues.
Most of them come from Allies, stacking and very few absurd unit choices.

Percentage System fixes the first two without much efford. the last one is an issue we will ALWAYS see. Even games (which are easy supportable by updates und have a dedicated designer/programmer team) will have these issues. Everything else is just a small tweak. You wont ever achieve "balance", you dont even need too. Dice do that for you. You need imbalances cause in a 100% balanced game of 40k there would be a "best army list" for each army and it just would come down to move and dice luck.

Yes, because the game wasn't broken when Allies weren't available and when armies were based on percentages... Oh, wait, yeah, that's wrong, it was broken then, too.

Not saying that Allies didn't muck things up even more, but that's hardly a fix-all that many people think, especially when a lot of the "scary" combos that people talk about are "scary" enough when taking part of it on its own.

Percentages are the same way. Does the way an army is built need to be addressed? Yes. Is percentages the answer... I have yet to be convinced (and there are some local people who are far more convincing), especially when most want to break the system in just another direction.

[Bigred]

from GW 4-5-2014


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqzSSlb-Rg4

[Defenestratus]

from GW 4-5-2014

<snipped YT video>

Why in God's name did I click play on that video when the preview frame was basically the whole damn thing.

I seriously loathe GW's marketing group.

[Mr Mystery]

You were expecting Spielberg, or perhaps Kafka?

[gungagreg]

Why in God's name did I click play on that video when the preview frame was basically the whole damn thing.

I seriously loathe GW's marketing group.

Clearly you, like I, are conditioned to hit play...Damn you Pavlov!

[Charon]

Yes, because the game wasn't broken when Allies weren't available and when armies were based on percentages... Oh, wait, yeah, that's wrong, it was broken then, too.



Depends on what you consider "broken".
Was hero hammer broken when we had percentages? Yes. Is hero hammer still a thing? Hardly. Would hero hammer be an issue again because of percentages? Not more than now (perhaps even less).
Did we have broken units in every edition? Sure. Will ANYTHING prevent that from happening? No way. In 2nd edition it was the flying vortex exarch, in 3rd we had banshee + serpent + WW spam, in 4th we had the invincible falcon and warlock blobs, in 5th we had Eldrad and Runes of Warding and now we got serpent spam and jetseers.
Most "scary" combos wont work under percentages anymore. There are very few of them which either would not exceed the % limitation or survive without allies.
A seerstar with 1 Farseer and 5 Warlocks is not scary. The only thing which would still work 100% is a DE Beaststar... but they will get their new codex in time.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

You were expecting Spielberg, or perhaps Kafka?

Personally, I was expecting John Carpenter or Ridley Scott.

[Mr Mystery]

Meet in the middle and agree Francis Ford Coppola?

[Hokiecow]

Why in God's name did I click play on that video when the preview frame was basically the whole damn thing.

I seriously loathe GW's marketing group.

One day they will invent a new type of image that repeat an animation. Until that day you will have to hit 'play' on the video... :(

[Defenestratus]

Personally, I was expecting John Carpenter or Ridley Scott.

Clearly I thought Michael Bay was on the GW Payroll.

[Clockwork]

From Dakka (apparently from the next WD):

2 new Force Organizations. ("Battle-Forged" or foc And "Unbound" take whatever) battle forge gives bonuses. New Missions using tactics cards in addition to our current Eternal War Missions, a new "Psychic Phase" of the game, and the full article next week.


New psychic discipline available to everyone but nids(lol). Psychic phase sounds a lot like fantasy.

EDIT:
One day they will invent a new type of image that repeat an animation. Until that day you will have to hit 'play' on the video... :(
And no one will agree how to pronounce its name.

[Defenestratus]

From Dakka (apparently from the next WD):



Those bonuses better be huge or else...

Defenestratus whips out the credit card to purchase 5 more Wraithknights.

I wouldn't really do that. But I know others would.

[Clockwork]

From Natfka:

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The FoC chart is still in the new 40k edition and if you follow it you have what is known as a "Battle Forged" army. It awards (unlisted) bonuses for using the FoC.You can also take a unbound army, these allow you to take whatever you want from your collection and toss out the FoC (while still adhering to unit size and heeding the relationships described in the new Allies Matrix.

Another thing is objective cards, so the objectives of the game can change each turn. The deck will be 36 cards.

There is also a physic phase confirmed now. A pool of warp charge dice is created at the start of the psychic phase, equal to 1d6 + mastery lvl of psychers. You can use as many dice as you like, but increase risk of perils of the warp (which is now a table you roll on.) Enemy psychers can draw on warp charge pool to Deny the Witch and nulify powers.

Also Eternal warrior missions still exist but in addition there are 6 new Maelstrom of War Missions.

via another anonymous source on Faeit 212
Additional information that a Battle Forged list can take as many detachments as they wish, and still get bonus's.. The Unbound lists, is very much whatever you want to throw in to do a battle, and you get to choose which you want to play, and your opponent can do the same.

[Defenestratus]

From Natfka:

What kind of bonuses could they possibly bestow for FOC armies that would offset me taking 6 WK's or 6 Nightwings or something similar?

My friend said this is going to be the FOC bonus rule:

Force your opponent to shave his neckbeard and take a bath, while he is away you can crush any of his models underfoot you so desire

[Angelofblades]

You were expecting Spielberg, or perhaps Kafka?

I think he was hoping for a little more. Not a whole lot more. Just a wee bit more

[Clockwork]

http://i.imgur.com/mRU59uo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9IakTiS.jpg

[Defenestratus]

Edit. Ninja'd by Clockwork.

"The only limit is the models in your collection!" No sh*t GW. I'm sure that this stupid unbound crap is not at all a way to convince powergaming dweebs an excuse to go out and buy 3 more Ripdrakeknights.

[lattd]

I think this is a) quite a clever idea as it makes the game much more flexible and two a great ploy to sell models. Think if it this way many armies could struggle with a 500 point army list but now you could do small campaign missions where elite terminator units have to storm a hive ship or an advanced recon team of stealth suits and pathfinders must sabotage an AM supply base, all of which would be impossible under current FOC.

[Combat Dave]

Edit. Ninja'd by Clockwork.

"The only limit is the models in your collection!" No sh*t GW. I'm sure that this stupid unbound crap is not at all a way to convince powergaming dweebs an excuse to go out and buy 3 more Ripdrakeknights.

I can see 'bound' lists becoming a common restriction. Throwing a game together with some random models from the shelf with some mates and some beers being one thing, but no-one in their right mind would sanction this for tourneys? Would they?

[Lucidum]

You guys seriously still don’t get that GW DOESN’T INTEND FOR THIS GAME TO BE COMPETITIVE.

[Defenestratus]

I can see 'bound' lists becoming a common restriction. Throwing a game together with some random models from the shelf with some mates and some beers being one thing, but no-one in their right mind would sanction this for tourneys? Would they?

GW Rules Designer: "You know, the community has been asking for us to tighten up these ruleset because of some really unfun things that certain douchebags have been pulling out there. Things that we didn't think about when we were writing the rules."

GW Marketing: "Can we tighten the ruleset up AND incentivize players to buy more expensive big kits at the same time?"

GW Designer: "Probably not."

GW Marketing: "Just get rid of all the limits!! all of them!! MORE PLASTIC CRACK!"

[DrBored]

You guys seriously still don’t get that GW DOESN’T INTEND FOR THIS GAME TO BE COMPETITIVE.

Agreed, but boys will be boys. All it'll take is for a TO to say 'no unbound lists, and no bonuses from Battle Forged lists' and badda-bing badda-boom, you're back in.

Not that I enjoy competitive crap, but the WD guy even says that one guy is making a list of 4 Riptides. Great. Just what we need.

Not too worried about it at my FLGS though. It seems like nobody there can AFFORD to buy that many RipWraithDrakes anyway.

[Lucidum]

Agreed, but boys will be boys. All it'll take is for a TO to say 'no unbound lists, and no bonuses from Battle Forged lists' and badda-bing badda-boom, you're back in.

Not that I enjoy competitive crap, but the WD guy even says that one guy is making a list of 4 Riptides. Great. Just what we need.

Not too worried about it at my FLGS though. It seems like nobody there can AFFORD to buy that many RipWraithDrakes anyway.

Well yeah, some players are just going to make some lists spamming overpowered crap (can’t really blame them though….I myself want to make an army purely using IG Sentinels…) but if FLGS want to run tournaments, it’s up to them to limit lists.

[Charistoph]

Depends on what you consider "broken".
Was hero hammer broken when we had percentages? Yes. Is hero hammer still a thing? Hardly. Would hero hammer be an issue again because of percentages? Not more than now (perhaps even less).
Did we have broken units in every edition? Sure. Will ANYTHING prevent that from happening? No way. In 2nd edition it was the flying vortex exarch, in 3rd we had banshee + serpent + WW spam, in 4th we had the invincible falcon and warlock blobs, in 5th we had Eldrad and Runes of Warding and now we got serpent spam and jetseers.
Most "scary" combos wont work under percentages anymore. There are very few of them which either would not exceed the % limitation or survive without allies.
A seerstar with 1 Farseer and 5 Warlocks is not scary. The only thing which would still work 100% is a DE Beaststar... but they will get their new codex in time.

Then you missed the point of my post. My point was that these things are not the "fix-all" that a lot of people are salivating them to be. Also, it's hard to say what will be defeated by percentages WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THE VALUES ARE, nor on how Formations will be affected by them.

Besides, it all seems a cow's opinion for what the WD leak has.


White Dwarf Pics

And there was a great howling and gnashing of teeth heard in the wilds, both urban and rural.

If that's a fake, it's a well done fake. That Unbound concept sounds a little scary.

I wonder how many Reclusiam Command Squads I can fit in that...

Edit: Expect most of the Tournaments to require Battle-Forged armies.

[Patrick Boyle]

So warp charges are determined by die roll? Well I'm hosed, the way I roll dice...

That said, the daemonology tree sounds interesting, fluff wise at least. Your rogue inquisitors can actually summon daemons, or try to in any case

[lattd]

Only 4 riptide a can't you get 16 at double FOC chart already?

[Defenestratus]

You guys seriously still don’t get that GW DOESN’T INTEND FOR THIS GAME TO BE COMPETITIVE.

But they do intend it to be FUN right?

My friend Triumphus walked into his new LGS this weekend with his necron balanced army. no immortals, no wraiths, about the most broken thing he had in his list was a C'Tan.

First game he plays was against a dude with a screamerstar list (who was cheating too but thats besides the point). How is this fun for him? How is it fun for anyone, competitive or not, to have a system that actually incentivizes people figuring out a way to break the game. The GW article pasted above even glorifies it. "I've been looking forward to having a list of nothing but Maulerfiends, HelDrakes and Defilers!" "My buddy is looking forwards to fielding all 4 of his riptides".

I've played grudgingly against those types of lists. I dont find it fun. Unfortunately its getting harder and harder to find games against like minded people as me who feel the need to exercise some self-restraint in Army Builder.

[Charon]

You guys seriously still don’t get that GW DOESN’T INTEND FOR THIS GAME TO BE COMPETITIVE.

This game is competitive by its nature. You count VP and at the end of the game there is a winner.
Its no cooperative game where you try to achieve victory over a set system (like Arkahm Horror) or a gamemaster (like Descent).
If GW didnt intend for this game to be played in competition, it would be a game with a cooperation victory.

[lattd]

Quick thought if the game gets a new objective and no longer has a kill all models to win and you get dynamic objectives then those 5 riptide lists will be terrible.

[Defenestratus]

Just totalled it up.

27 war walkers in 2k points.

or

8 Wraithknights.

or

12 Wraithlords.

Yup.

[Charon]

Quick thought if the game gets a new objective and no longer has a kill all models to win and you get dynamic objectives then those 5 riptide lists will be terrible.

Not really. Killing units is never a terrible option. If you have no units on the table you cant compete for "dynamic" objectives.
2nd problem will be the "scoring units". If they want to promote the "you can take freely all units you want!", then all units have to be scoring somehow. Or your Maulerfiend, Drake and Defiler List is going to lose from start.
Which basically means broken units just got more powerful.

[Lucidum]

You seem to be mistaking two players pitting a force against each other for being deliberately meant for tournament play. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. You can play Call of Duty against other people without it being a tournament dependent on different rules and balance.

[Lord Asterion]

You seem to be mistaking two players pitting a force against each other for being deliberately meant for tournament play. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. You can play Call of Duty against other people without it being a tournament dependent on different rules and balance.

Indeed, there can be a winner without the game being competitive, when I play, I play to make sure myself and my opponent have as much fun as possible, I don't do things I feel my army wouldn't do and try to use my units how the fluff would have them act, I honestly don't care at the end if I won or lost.

[Defenestratus]

Quick thought if the game gets a new objective and no longer has a kill all models to win and you get dynamic objectives then those 5 riptide lists will be terrible.

Tabling your opponent always wins. Or at least it used to. Not sure about it anymore.

[Lucidum]

Indeed, there can be a winner without the game being competitive, when I play, I play to make sure myself and my opponent have as much fun as possible, I don't do things I feel my army wouldn't do and try to use my units how the fluff would have them act, I honestly don't care at the end if I won or lost.

Here here

[lattd]

Well no they don't have to be scoring, it would be sensible to take some scoring units in an unbound list but doesn't mean you have to, but this all comes down to objectives. I can see unbound being amazing for tyranids and harlequin lists, I can see so many crazy fun lists with unbound, how about a nothing but one aspect army list. What about a terminator first company led by Lysander. Or the devastate or assault companies? Tank company or air Bourne AM, you could even arrange massive dogfights where you only use flyers.

Everyone has jumped on the anti fun band wagon but these are just a few of the ideas, yes it's open to cheese but it's also open to some crazy fun ideas!

[Lord Asterion]

For every person worried about their precious balance and tournaments, 10 people will be having fun games with their mates with all sorts of silliness, and they'll love it.

I think some of those people should learn to find fun in losing rather than thinking of it as the worst thing in the world.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Well, it's definitely a way to push more models but I can't blame them for it - If I played the game, it would probably get me to buy models of armies I otherwise would not collect as there are some factions where i cant stand the look of the troops yet like other models, and I dont see the point in buying models I dont like the look of, so it might be a good move in that regard...cant say how it will effect the game since I dont play though...

[Tomgar]

Y'know what? I'm not a competitive gamer. I don't care about winning as long as I have fun and cool, narrative stuff happens (as demonstrated by an awesome game today where I was almost tabled except for an invincible archon that slaughtered who chunks of the enemy army). For players like me, this is a godsend. For competitive players (although, as has been said, 40k isn't designed for competition), it's as simple as saying "no unbound lists."

If you don't like someone's spammy list, here's a revolutionary concept: don't play it and move onto another opponent. I know, it's a very esoteric and arcane concept but it really works!

Also, I'd like to know how different this is in practice from the situation we have now where double FOC, allies etc. allow people to pretty much circumvent FOC anyway. This just formalises it and also rewards you for disciplined list-building.

Bring on the carnage, I'll be on the front lines, braving the maelstrom in the name of the Emperor!

[Agramar]

Brace yourselves,7th is coming:
http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.com/2014/05/ultima-horase-confirma240514-nueva.html

[Lord Asterion]

I'm sure we'll see the same voices that complained about percentages restricting them too much complain about this too. Lets all just have some fun and roll dice, yeah?

[Defenestratus]

I'm sure we'll see the same voices that complained about percentages restricting them too much complain about this too. Lets all just have some fun and roll dice, yeah?

Ok sounds good.

Here's my army if 10 necron overlords with 2+/3++ saves, everliving, warp scythes and tachyon arrows.

Oh it'll be fun alright... for one of us.

[The Imperial Fist]

If these haven't already made it onto here: 86768677

[Tomgar]

Ok sounds good.

Here's my army if 10 necron overlords with 2+/3++ saves, everliving, warp scythes and tachyon arrows.

Oh it'll be fun alright... for one of us.

And, of course, any player reserves his right to look at your list and say "no, that sounds no fun."

Wasn't aware that asking if someone fancied a game constituted a binding contract to follow through with said game.

[Lord Asterion]

Ok sounds good.

Here's my army if 10 necron overlords with 2+/3++ saves, everliving, warp scythes and tachyon arrows.

Oh it'll be fun alright... for one of us.


And my army is 2 Stompas, which have D-Weapons in close combat, it'll be fun. And you don't know what the benefits of a "Battle-forged" army will be yet, maybe its great and will make a big difference. No point in claiming the sky is falling when you've only seen a tiny overview of part of the rules.