40K Rulebooks, Starter Sets and Psychic Cards Pulled - 7th Ed 40K Imminent?

[Patrick Boyle]

For every person worried about their precious balance and tournaments, 10 people will be having fun games with their mates with all sorts of silliness, and they'll love it.

I think some of those people should learn to find fun in losing rather than thinking of it as the worst thing in the world.

Yes, it's oh so much fun to always be picking up handfuls of models after spending 20 minutes of setup time. Not everyone has the benefit of lots of people not trying to break the system to play with on a regular basis. I play Codex marines, without a bike chapter master/captain and command squad with grav guns, or any bikes, or grav centurions, or any of the other typical strong choices from the codex. My regular opponents are all min/maxed Tau, Eldar, Taudar, Chaos with drakes, and now guard with allied inquisitor shenanigans. I've won a game in 6 months. Part of that is my abysmal die rolling(pretty consistently under average for hit/wound/making saves, I keep track) but the other part is we're basically playing two different games.

I'll be lobbying hard to make sure my store sticks to Battle-forged only for events, because there are people here who will abuse the hell out of being allowed to ignore the FoC.

[Lord Asterion]

No one knows what the differences between Battle-forged and Unbound armies will be yet, so there is no point getting worked up about it right now, you'll achieve nothing, instead, think of the benefits, you will be able to make the fluffy armies that even the FOC restricted, like the idea of using a Reserve Company of Space Marines? A full on Grot army? All Kroot list? Now you can!

We don't know the rules yet and we don't know what other changes are coming, so lets all calm down and stay positive yeah?

[DrLove42]

Im usually the wait amd see itll be fine type guy

But this...i'm considering selling up and quitting. It just sounds horrible. And not the FoC thing.. the physic magic phase rules. I dont play Fantasy cos i hate the magic mechanics. Now its in mah 40k. It might be the end for me...ill have to wait amd see when the book comes out

[Lord Asterion]

Im usually the wait amd see itll be fine type guy

But this...i'm considering selling up and quitting. It just sounds horrible. And not the FoC thing.. the physic magic phase rules. I dont play Fantasy cos i hate the magic mechanics. Now its in mah 40k. It might be the end for me...ill have to wait amd see when the book comes out

Making Psykers feel unique and not just models with a shooting attack with a leadership test first could be really fun, and your psykers battling it out, using the warp flux to nullify each others spells and summon daemons to attack each other could be really cool, i think it is worth waiting to see

[RGilbert26]

Then don't use Pyskers, simple.

[DrLove42]

Then don't use Pyskers, simple.

i have a 15,000 point Eldar army. With 18 Farseers.

Ive just never liked the mechanics. It seemed clunky compared to the Ld test and then deny. Ill buy the rulebook and read it but i dont know....i rarely get the chance to play anymore. Maybe a crappy new edition will be my final push.

Gw will still get my money for a rulebook though. And who knows in 6 months time when 8th edition launches i might be back :P

[Charon]

No one knows what the differences between Battle-forged and Unbound armies will be yet, so there is no point getting worked up about it right now, you'll achieve nothing, instead, think of the benefits, you will be able to make the fluffy armies that even the FOC restricted, like the idea of using a Reserve Company of Space Marines? A full on Grot army? All Kroot list? Now you can!



You could do that before. I wonder why the "non competitive play whatever you want for fluffbunny fun" would ever need rules to allow them to do what they already could have done before....

[Dimitrios]

I have to say this makes me REALLY nervous... I know people will say that it opens up the game and allows people to field their collections, and create fluffy armies... BUT what will really happen is that people will now just spam the single powerful unit in the game and that will be that...

in 2000 point games what is to now stop someone from taking 5 - 6 flying deamon princes all tooled up? When facing that once all you will get is someone countering that will all SM thunderhammer storm shield armies...

I fear this is the beginning of the end...

[The Imperial Fist]

Im usually the wait amd see itll be fine type guy

But this...i'm considering selling up and quitting. It just sounds horrible. And not the FoC thing.. the physic magic phase rules. I dont play Fantasy cos i hate the magic mechanics. Now its in mah 40k. It might be the end for me...ill have to wait amd see when the book comes out

This is actually going back to old 40k. When I started in second edition, there was a seperate pyshic phase. It doesn't sound too different to what happens no, just all in one phase rather than spread out.

[deinol]

You could do that before. I wonder why the "non competitive play whatever you want for fluffbunny fun" would ever need rules to allow them to do what they already could have done before....

That was my thought. It's easy enough to do anything you want with your opponent's permission.

I guess my all Harlequin army will be legal again. Still won't be effective though.

[The Imperial Fist]

I have to say this makes me REALLY nervous... I know people will say that it opens up the game and allows people to field their collections, and create fluffy armies... BUT what will really happen is that people will now just spam the single powerful unit in the game and that will be that...

in 2000 point games what is to now stop someone from taking 5 - 6 flying deamon princes all tooled up? When facing that once all you will get is someone countering that will all SM thunderhammer storm shield armies...

I fear this is the beginning of the end...

I'm all for positive thinking and waiting to see what comes, but I agree with you a bit. Feels a bit like the lid has been lifted off pandora's box. I wonder if they got the lid back on in time to keep hope inside.

[Bigred]

It all has a very 2nd Edition - 1st Edition Rogue Trader vibe.

The use of decks of mission cards...

The buy anything and play with what you have...

The big de-emphasis on Army Lists...

The psychic phase...

It's like the game is going back full circle. Well now I can see why there were no FAQs for a year and they took down the Facebook page :)

-Larry

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Since I don't play - i'm unaffected, but it does seem crazy for an edition to last only 2 years! At least that gives people confirmation it IS a new edition. Since I love starter set models, It's a good thing for me.

[Dimitrios]

It all has a very 2nd Edition - 1st Edition Rogue Trader vibe.

The use of decks of mission cards...

The buy anything and play with what you have...

The big de-emphasis on Army Lists...

The psychic phase...

It's like the game is going back full circle. Well now I can see why there were no FAQs for a year and they took down the Facebook page :)

-Larry

I hear you, and its great to see the pattern, but the game was unbalanced enough as it is! This screams of madness of the highest order. What GW have infact done is stopped people buying troop choices and MANY of the units they where "forced" to buy in the past...

Will GW ever sell a single box of Imperial Guard infantry again? Why would you bother? To get this mythical "bonus" they tell us about? I'm not sure how much the "bonus" will add up to when you are faced with a wall of leman russ executioners...

God, can you imagine the abuse tyranids will be able to throw down? Pure monstrous creature lists... Heck pure obliterator armies?? How many oblits can you fit into a 2000 point army list? and WHO and WHAT do you think will stand up to that?

[daboarder]

ok, so the only two pictures we have at the moment are the WD ones

So what do we KNOW.....

Percentages are bunk, the pictures specifically refer to the FOC so luckily that junk is gone.

The Psychic Phase is back, and warp charges are determined not just by a D6 but by a D6 + Combined mastery levels, so you list can still bank on the number of mastery levels it has. Whole thing seems very fantasy magic with them talking about the opponent using "warp charges for deny the witch"

Two Types of armies: Unbound and FOC.....

Ok so the unbound is stupid as far as we know (really does look it) But knowing the way GW writes rules and then refers to them in WD, and know the way the community opperates...I'm not worried. GASP! I know, me not getting upset.....

Look I fully expect "unbound" armies to be something like a short paragraph in the building a force section that states if you and your opponent agree then you can take "unbound" armies and modify the game like so.
Id also expect it to be largely ignored buy 90% of the community in favour of FOC. Much like 2 FOC at 2K is largely ignored, or escalation is ignored or Mysterious terrain, or anything else in the book that bogs down the game or makes it practically unplayable.

so what Im saying is we dont know enough about unbound armies yet to get upset, but be wary, very wary.

[Tomgar]

Much like 2 FOC at 2K is largely ignored

Agree with much of what you say but I don't really find that anyone ignores double FOC in my own experience. Practically everyone I play against takes advantage of this to shove in a cheap Librarian or an Archon or something. Very, very common in my area at least.

[Mr Mystery]

All sounds good to me.

Vive la differénce!

[daboarder]

Agree with much of what you say but I don't really find that anyone ignores double FOC in my own experience. Practically everyone I play against takes advantage of this to shove in a cheap Librarian or an Archon or something. Very, very common in my area at least.

fair enough, I was generally speaking the community at large, furthermore I'll also admit that as 6th has gotten older 2 FOC has gained more acceptance in most communities.

edit:

So can I say I find it funny that the same people that are accepting unbound pretty readily are normally the same people that have a problem with 2++ re-roll stars or wanted the more restrictive percentages? what changed? ;)

[Defenestratus]

I have to say this makes me REALLY nervous... I know people will say that it opens up the game and allows people to field their collections, and create fluffy armies... BUT what will really happen is that people will now just spam the single powerful unit in the game and that will be that...

I remember when allies came out and people were talking about how awesome this would be for the meta and how it would totally change the nature of the game - when in reality it only made the metahammer even worse (as I would like to point out, I predicted). Taking all of the barn doors off of the ruleset is going to show the model points system for what it is, a facade that gives us the illusion of balance.


I fear this is the beginning of the end...

My doom and gloom meter is pretty pegged at the moment.


Much like 2 FOC at 2K is largely ignored, or escalation is ignored or Mysterious terrain, or anything else in the book that bogs down the game or makes it practically unplayable.

I don't know what meta you play in, but I cannot seem to play against a single FOC 2k point list anymore.

[TheDirtyHippy]

So, Games-Workshop has been and is really pushing the idea that their game is not meant to be competitive. A lot of you guys are freaking out about how this affects competitive play. You're all silly. Tournaments will have a list of what rules to use, just like they started doing with the current edition. Organizers will do their best to make sure you have a good time; that's their job.

I for one will be stoked to play some crazy games with my friends using whatever we want. Then I can play in a tournament with structure. There may even be some "Unbound" tournament out there. As long as you know what that means going in, you will bring an army that fits in that sort of environment. As I've got a huge Apocalypse force, the idea of a crazy unbound tournament sounds pretty fun actually. Unless the guy on the other side of the table doesn't want to play that sort of game. Then neither of us will have fun. Well, unless I'm playing Orks. I always have fun with my Boyz, even that one time my Green Tide got tabled!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I welcome my new 7th edition overlords!

Very excite for the new edition.

[techsoldaten]

I have to say this makes me REALLY nervous... I know people will say that it opens up the game and allows people to field their collections, and create fluffy armies... BUT what will really happen is that people will now just spam the single powerful unit in the game and that will be that...

in 2000 point games what is to now stop someone from taking 5 - 6 flying deamon princes all tooled up? When facing that once all you will get is someone countering that will all SM thunderhammer storm shield armies...

I fear this is the beginning of the end...

At 2000 points, you actually could field 5 FMCs already.

The winning 1850 point list at Adepticon was Fateweaver + 4 FMCs and 1 Heldrake, with some troops and a sorcerer thrown in. Drop the sorcerer and you have a place for another FMC at 2000 points. The only thing unbound lists would mean is that the added FMC could come from Codex Daemons instead of Codex CSM.

That said, it's worth it to wait and see what the rules reveal. If I was going to really create a cheezy list with any units I desire, it would have a lot more than FMCs in it.

[Azrell]

7th edition: We give up just take whatever and balance it yourself.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude.

GW could release a game between just two Marines, identically equipped, and whomever lost would still whine about a lack of balance.

[daboarder]

Dude.

GW could release a game between just two Marines, identically equipped, and whomever lost would still whine about a lack of balance.

Dude,

GW already did that....and its hailed because it is balanced.....its called horus heresy

[Mr Mystery]

Except there's a great many additional rules involved.

But whilst some ride from town to town to inform the sky has now become gravitationally challenged, I shall be in the garden taking tea, and enjoying my hobby.

[lattd]

7th edition, take what you want as you will moan whatever happens. Use all your collection or use an organisation chart but someone will moan they can't take what they want.

But in all honesty unbound armies will be great for campaigns! Just don't use it in tournaments.

[BeardMonk]

I actually feel that the FOC/unbound armys is a good thing. If having a FOC style army gives you significant bonuses, then that will negate another person turning up with an unbound/specialist army. However it will actually open the door to some interesting setups. Full assault marine army? Do it. Star Phantoms gun line? Do it. Imperial Guard tank and mechanised army? Do it. As long as your local meta allows it, crack on. And that’s a positive thing.

But i think GW need to sort out the bent/broken allies system. When you see Eldar turning up with detachments of allied Dark Eldar you know its going wrong.

I will watch and wait. Quite a few people who play 40K in our club have been threatening to do a "tale of X gamers" for 40K so with the release of a new edition I think I will probably get involved.

[Herzlos]

If these haven't already made it onto here: 86768677

I like how all the staff players are using it to spam stuff; an army of Forgefiends/Helldrakes/Defilers, an army of Leman Russes, an army of Riptide and Broadsides.

They all sound awful to play against, in that it'll be terribly one sided and dull.

It's as if we're going from heroic 28mm mass battle games to 76mm skirmish.

Edit: I have to admit I like the mission cards, and having the ability to change missions each turn could be interesting if a little chaotic. The unbounded thing does mean I'll spend most of my games up against the characters of the blood angels along with a host of terminators and death company. Woo :(

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It does mean that I can create my 3rd Company's famous tank battles, which is cool.

[Packe]

The thing they could do with unbound Armies is that they could restrict you to using only one codex I think that would "balance" it out. At least you don't have to face Wraith Knights and Riptides.

[Charon]

Who needs Riptides when you can field 8 Wraithknights?

[Proiteus]

Fortunately most players and indie tournaments will have the common sense to enforce the force organisation chart, but I'm won't get my hopes up for Throne Of Skulls. Also thought I'd share this funny comic regarding the matter.

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1506542_10152383844040982_4205594318273441478_n.jp g

[Haighus]

For Unbound armies that take no troops, they may still only be able to table their opponents- atm, there is nothing saying that units other than troops can now hold objectives, so these lists could find a hard counter in lists with enough troops to soak up the damage from the spam lists and survive.

[Mr Mystery]

And we're yet to discover what the perks for a FoC obeying force are. They could be game changing. We just don't know.

I really do suggest everyone unknots their underwear for now. If at the end of the day you only want to play FoC games, then go for it. Me, I like options. The more options I have, the happier I am.

[daboarder]

As many detachments in a battleforged army as you want is apparently the word


So something like

Heralds + horrors
Heralds + horrors
Heralds + horrors
Heralds + horrors
Heralds + horrors
Heralds + horrors

with each as a separate detatchment is a battleforged list

[Mr Mystery]

The bird is the word and well we know it.

I'll believe stuff when I sees stuff.

[Defenestratus]

7th edition: We give up just take whatever and balance it yourself.

People said the same thing about 6th edition allies. Now look what happened. The community is incapable of policing itself. All it takes is one bad actor in an LGS to start the broken list building escalation and before long, everyone is trying to field their abusive army of choice. This happened at the last couple LGS' that I've played at.

Its funny above where someone said that they've only seen one game of warmachine played 3 years ago at his LGS.

I could almost say the same thing about 40k at my LGS, and the past 3 I've been a part of.

First LGS everyone left 40k for Flames of War
Second LGS everyone left 40k for Warmachine (the store actually stopped stocking GW product entirely)
Third LGS everyone left 40k for Star wars random miniatures game #74
Fourth LGS everyone is in the process of going to warmachine with a spattering of WHFB. The GW stock on the wall has fallen from a healthy selection to pretty much just new releases. Tonight is 40k night and I can actually go. There used to be ~20 people in the shop to play 40k, but now I bet there will probably only be 4 including myself. Warmachine nights on wednesday you need to get there early in order to get a table.

This migration from 40k at each one of these places happened for a different reason. At the third, it was because the price increases and GW stocking policies pissed off the LGS owner so much he didn't support his community anymore. The one I'm a part of now is because everyone just tries to bring the most broken list possible. The silly thing is that they seem to *LIKE* that but its also led them to tell me that they enjoy playing warmachine a lot more than 40k now.

The community wanted more defined rulesets - not less. I think we can all agree. I don't think I read a single comment prior to these leaks that said "I really just wish that they'd do away with the FOC and percentages completely and have normal games of 40k be like apocalypse."

Whatever bonuses that Battleforged get, It'd better be something along the lines of granting a USR of your choice to your entire army or something like that, so when you come up against a wall of Wraithdraketiides you can pick fleshbane, or rending, or skyfire for your WHOLE friggin army.

[The Imperial Fist]

Dude,

GW already did that....and its hailed because it is balanced.....its called horus heresy

Amen

- - - Updated - - -


And we're yet to discover what the perks for a FoC obeying force are. They could be game changing. We just don't know.

I really do suggest everyone unknots their underwear for now. If at the end of the day you only want to play FoC games, then go for it. Me, I like options. The more options I have, the happier I am.

I think(/hope) that it will be something significant. Such as a certain amount of free VPs for using a FOC list. For the odd game unbound sounds like it could be fun - an entrenched IF gun line made of dev's, vindicators and thunderfire's sounds pretty fluffy, but for the main stay I imagine I'll stick with my rhino bourne tactical squads. But then I've always felt the humble tactical squad is underrated.

[Katharon]

I'd like to just point out that we don't know the *full* specifics of what or *how* things will be changed. We've still only got rumors. So why not wait until we've got concrete evidence in our hands before making sweeping judgement about what may or may not happen about something that may or may not be put in the new rulebook?

Also, I'm quite sure - based on that short, short teaser video - that IG are going to be in the new starter set. Woot!

[DrBored]

I can't help but laugh a little bit when I hear about all these people that are abandoning 40k for other games. I laugh when they post on sites saying how they're putting their army up on E-Bay. Because, I know, that at the end of the day, as much as the Negative Nancies howl into the night about how bad 40k is as a game.. I know that it's still a very fun game, the miniatures are awesome, the fluff is cool, and that nine times out of ten, those people are just butthurt that their broken list didn't perform more than a couple of months of wins, and they don't feel like going through the process again.

Those players that are loyal to an army, like Space Marines or Chaos Marines or Tyranids, those people that stick with one or two factions are the people that stick with the game and are a whole lot more fun to play with. The players that pick up a TauDar army because it's the hot shnaz on BOLS are the players that turn around and cry whenever a change comes around that might upset the army their mommies and daddies bought for them. I'm not sorry to be rude here. The players that take the time to get to know their army and take the time to enjoy their models are the ones that I see, time and time again, having cooler conversions with more fun army lists and a better grasp of what the game is supposed to be like, and those are the players that stick around.

When players leave 40k for Warmahordes or whatever else, I know it's not because they hate 40k, I know it's because their playstyle doesn't fit what 40k is supposed to be. That's not their fault, and it's not GW's fault, but crying about it sure isn't going to improve anything.

[Wolfshade]

When players leave 40k for Warmahordes or whatever else, I know it's not because they hate 40k, I know it's because their playstyle doesn't fit what 40k is supposed to be. That's not their fault, and it's not GW's fault, but crying about it sure isn't going to improve anything.

Where is my like button?!

Wait for the dust to settle and they will find their new netlist, complain about GW prices and have their 2000pt list of the month...

[Defenestratus]

I can't help but laugh a little bit when I hear about all these people that are abandoning 40k for other games. I laugh when they post on sites saying how they're putting their army up on E-Bay. Because, I know, that at the end of the day, as much as the Negative Nancies howl into the night about how bad 40k is as a game.. I know that it's still a very fun game, the miniatures are awesome, the fluff is cool, and that nine times out of ten, those people are just butthurt that their broken list didn't perform more than a couple of months of wins, and they don't feel like going through the process again.

Personally, I'm not thinking of leaving 40k because my "broken list" is not going to win anymore. I'm thinking about putting my models in extended storage because I'm thoroughly frightened that GW has blatantly decided to no longer write rules that promote a fun, healthy game. They are simply writing rules to sell models - and thats it. If there's any doubt thats what unbound is all about, I simply have to refer to the article where the staff are happily spamming their big expensive kits.

[musical-fool]

Personally, I'm not thinking of leaving 40k because my "broken list" is not going to win anymore. I'm thinking about putting my models in extended storage because I'm thoroughly frightened that GW has blatantly decided to no longer write rules that promote a fun, healthy game. They are simply writing rules to sell models - and thats it. If there's any doubt thats what unbound is all about, I simply have to refer to the article where the staff are happily spamming their big expensive kits.

I think you are correct that GW is all in for selling models as quickly but also as regularly as possible. The change in White Dwarf formats twice in 24-36 months, said monthly magazine being more and more of a monthly catalogue of new expensive toys to buy, etc. are examples of this.

Put this together with reduced staff in stores, less stores in some regions, no seperate HQ per country but a European HQ based in Notts (i.e. General cost reduction), quick turn around of game platforms ( see rumours on WHB new edition to drop this year too & new hobbit with each film) and Hasbro raising their stock % in GW...are we seeing the Hasbro business model for GW in the years to come as GW being an entity of Hasbro?

[Cutter]

Hasbro raising their stock % in GW...are we seeing the Hasbro business model for GW in the years to come as GW being an entity of Hasbro?

I did not know that.

Interesting.

[daboarder]

What?

Hasbro?

they dont own any significant GW shares that I can see

http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

[Wolfshade]

I think you are correct that GW is all in for selling models as quickly but also as regularly as possible. The change in White Dwarf formats twice in 24-36 months, said monthly magazine being more and more of a monthly catalogue of new expensive toys to buy, etc. are examples of this.

Put this together with reduced staff in stores, less stores in some regions, no seperate HQ per country but a European HQ based in Notts (i.e. General cost reduction), quick turn around of game platforms ( see rumours on WHB new edition to drop this year too & new hobbit with each film) and Hasbro raising their stock % in GW...are we seeing the Hasbro business model for GW in the years to come as GW being an entity of Hasbro?

What is the point of a seperate GW HQ per country?

If Hasbro own any GW stock it is less than 3% (http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/)

- - - Updated - - -


What?

Hasbro?

they dont own any significant GW shares that I can see

http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

Deathleaper'd damn it.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah.

First I've heard of Hasbro?

[daboarder]

deathleaper'd mate

[Tomgar]

People said the same thing about 6th edition allies. Now look what happened. The community is incapable of policing itself. All it takes is one bad actor in an LGS to start the broken list building escalation and before long, everyone is trying to field their abusive army of choice. This happened at the last couple LGS' that I've played at.

Speak for yourself. You're taking your own experience at your local stores and extrapolating it to the whole community. I can do that too!

For example: we have a single guy at our store who runs broken lists like Seer Councils on Jetbikes, Daemons Flying Circus, Farsight Bomb etc. That's it. He's the only one. The rest of us take fun lists that lead to good, closely fought games because we think those broken lists are douchebaggery.

Maybe the people at your LGS are just *******s?

[spaceman91]

I'm not one for competitive play (although I can see the appeal) so you know when I say I don't like the sound of most of these changes its not because of 'butthurt'. Having said that I will have a good few games before righting off 7th. I have loved 6th much more then 5th and 4th. Even if I don't like 7th I won't be selling any armies because I can always play 6th or just wait. My 2 pence for what its worth.

[eldargal]

What a lot of whining when all we have is a vague description of the new features in a WD editorial. From what it sounds like people are going to be able to run lore friendly things like armoured columns and all wraith armies and ASSUMING the new rules don't provide some checks and balances we don't know about if you think a particular army is broken don't bloody play against it.

[Defenestratus]

Speak for yourself. You're taking your own experience at your local stores and extrapolating it to the whole community. I can do that too!

For example: we have a single guy at our store who runs broken lists like Seer Councils on Jetbikes, Daemons Flying Circus, Farsight Bomb etc. That's it. He's the only one. The rest of us take fun lists that lead to good, closely fought games because we think those broken lists are douchebaggery.

Maybe the people at your LGS are just *******s?

Perhaps they are. Perhaps they're different from your group but from what I've seen and heard its more the norm than anything else. My buddy Triumphus just moved to a whole different area of the country and walked into his new LGS and said "Hi I'm new here. Does anyone want to play a game?" and the guy that offered to play him showed up to the table with an illegal screamerstar list.

I refuse to indulge them at my LGS but I feel like I'm an exception to the rule. The problem is, that out of the 2 LGS in my area, mine is the less cut-throat one. This isn't isolated to just my gaming group - I've experienced it in nearly every LGS that I've been a part of. It usually happens when a plastic napoleon comes along and decides he wants to "practice" for his tournament coming up. Soon, the weekly campaign is full of silly crap like venom spam, broadside spam, necron flier spam.

I know a few guys that gave up trying to fight the tide and went to Warmachine where they feel that they can get a fair shake at a fun game.

- - - Updated - - -


What a lot of whining when all we have is a vague description of the new features in a WD editorial. From what it sounds like people are going to be able to run lore friendly things like armoured columns and all wraith armies and ASSUMING the new rules don't provide some checks and balances we don't know about if you think a particular army is broken don't bloody play against it.

What am I supposed to do when the 3 people left playing 40k at my LGS all are playing broadside spammy lists?

[Wolfshade]

What am I supposed to do when the 3 people left playing 40k at my LGS all are playing broadside spammy lists?

Get some of your friends playing the game, convert them to the way of Jervis.

I am quite fortunate I guess, my wargamming groups is my gaming group +2, there are about 10 of us or so that meet and play arranged games at arrange point levels. The closest to a power gamer we have is a rules lawyer, whose vast collection of armies is enough to make it a bit unpredictable.

[Defenestratus]

Get some of your friends playing the game, convert them to the way of Jervis.

I am quite fortunate I guess, my wargamming groups is my gaming group +2, there are about 10 of us or so that meet and play arranged games at arrange point levels. The closest to a power gamer we have is a rules lawyer, whose vast collection of armies is enough to make it a bit unpredictable.

Yeah, kind of hard to do when there are 4 people telling them to get into Warmachine.

[daboarder]

now make an army of forgefiends, defilers and heldrakes....unbound strike force made of leman russ battle tanks...salivating at the prospect of taking an army that consists of riptides and braodsides

The way of jervis

[Wolfshade]

Yeah, kind of hard to do when there are 4 people telling them to get into Warmachine.

:(

Tell them warmachine is pants, give them copies of DoW and go look shiney!

[DrBored]

Personally, I'm not thinking of leaving 40k because my "broken list" is not going to win anymore. I'm thinking about putting my models in extended storage because I'm thoroughly frightened that GW has blatantly decided to no longer write rules that promote a fun, healthy game. They are simply writing rules to sell models - and thats it. If there's any doubt thats what unbound is all about, I simply have to refer to the article where the staff are happily spamming their big expensive kits.

That's all fine and dandy, but I'm surprised at peoples' surprise about GW trying to sell models. Haven't we been saying for years now that GW is not a rules company, they're a model company? I'm rather amazed that when GW tries to sell models, people get surprised when... GW tries to sell more models.

I myself am working on a Space Sharks list that I've been buying in small chunks, painting what I have, and then buying more, which seems to be what GW wants people to do. I find myself enjoying it a lot more because my army is more painted than most of my opponents when it comes time to put models on the table. I don't have enough models in this force to abuse the Unbound rules, and it'll be a long time before I get to that point at the rate I'm going. Sure, I could go out and buy 3 more Land Raiders and throw in an Imperial Knight for funsies, but that's not the way I'm going about it.

[Patrick Boyle]

Get some of your friends playing the game, convert them to the way of Jervis.

I am quite fortunate I guess, my wargamming groups is my gaming group +2, there are about 10 of us or so that meet and play arranged games at arrange point levels. The closest to a power gamer we have is a rules lawyer, whose vast collection of armies is enough to make it a bit unpredictable.

As though it's so easy to convince people to drop hundreds of dollars into plastic figures and rulebooks :rolleyes:

I'm in a similar boat to Defenestratus, as I said in a post earlier in this thread. The local community here is all min-maxers, aside from my one friend whose work schedule keeps us from being able to get games in, so my only real outlet to play is the tri-monthly tournaments where every game I'm against Eldar, Tau, Taudar, Necrons, Taucron, or recently IG all fully decked out while I've got my biker-less, grav centurion-less Codex Marines army(one of the only ones that's both fully painted and that I didn't pay someone else to paint for me), because I don't like the models for the actual competitive C:SM options.

[phreakachu]

^agreed. the tossing of foc would be manageable if tabling an opponent stopped being a viable tactic... but thats its own can of worms

[Defenestratus]

:(

Tell them warmachine is pants, give them copies of DoW and go look shiney!

Oh I totally agree. Warmachine looks dull, drab and boring to me. Every game looks the same... there's a dust-speck sized piece of terrain in the middle of the table, and a circle of about a dozen to two dozen dudes surrounding a dude that looks like he wanted to be a dreadnought but was one or two chromosomes short.

Every game is the same it looks like. There are no tanks, no planes, no massive cool dudes that have giant guns shooting across the table...

Believe me, if it was just about the models and narrative I could sell 40k until the cows come home. Then comes the "oh its going to be $150 to get two squads and a tank.... oh and btw, that list that you think looks cool on the table is going to lose practically every game because, GW rules."

[Mr Mystery]

As though it's so easy to convince people to drop hundreds of dollars into plastic figures and rulebooks :rolleyes:


Used to do it on a 5 day a week basis when I was a shop mook for GW. It's easy really.

[Wolfshade]

It is as the old saying goes, if you don't like the person sat next to you in the pub, bring someone else.

I do agree that getting into the game can be an expensive thing, no more so than say warmachine.
But you odn't need to start at 2000pt level.
Kill Team is great and works very well sub 1000.
I do most of my gaming at the 1000pt level as one of the guys getting back into it is rebuilding his army and it takes time.

You can lend your rulebook or just use one, which further reduces costs. Heck I've only just got my DV one back from a mate and I gave it to him when I got the box on pre-order!

Plus with "all" these people dropping the hobby there should be good cheap ebay goodness.
Quick look:
BrB 99p (6th ed)
Codex space marines 99p (Current edition)
Dark Angels from DV 99p (Based, 1 squad undercoated white)
Space Wolf army 99p (5x TH/SS termies, 5x Normal Termies, 2x10 Tacticals, 1x5 Devastator, 2 Wolf lords, 1 Razorback)

[Arkhan Land]

feels like I went in to surgery to get an appendectomy and came out with a gastric bypass, cranial hemisphere separation and fake tits. oh well...

[Mr Mystery]

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608038657676085776&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

[Arkhan Land]

its okay I kind of like the fake tits

[Al Shut]

I always like the dice pools used in the Fantasy magic phase.

If the psychic phase is close to what I remember of Fantasy magic, does that mean I get to deny/nullify blessings?

But what about armies without psykers, a whole phase where the enemy just get's to dance on their noses?

[Wolfshade]

Underlying all of this is an inherent different ways that we play 40k and unfortunately, it is quite often the case of like it or lump it.
Especially when playing at FLGS. From the rumours it seems that this is an attempt to make a more inclusive ruleset that will encourage players to play to "fair" and "balanced" (as far as 40k goes), but rather than forcing people to conform to "this is 40k" the want to enourage people to do so and not stop those who don't.
The rules are a frame work in which to forge the narrative and if something doesn't work for you then don't use it or change it so it does. For instance, get the FLGS to house rule that all games will be "battle forged" unless by prior agreement. Simples.

[Joe Fixit]

You were expecting Spielberg, or perhaps Kafka?

If the effort of that promotional vid is indicative of the effort put into the new rules then it doesn't bode well. I'm still a little miffed at another edition so soon after 6th. Wargaming isn't a cheap hobby, I appreciate that but I don't expect to buy a BRB every other year. I could be wrong and maybe GW plan to make the rules free, I doubt it. For those folks who bought digital versions of the rules released last year I would understand those being equally pissed off as myself. There's a difference between shrewd business and blatantly taking the piss. GW are doing the latter.

[Eldar_Atog]

Used to do it on a 5 day a week basis when I was a shop mook for GW. It's easy really.

Yes, it's really easy when a possible customer walks into your store and is browsing. They would not be in your store if they were at least open to picking up a new hobby.

It's not so easy when you walk into a hobby shop that mainly focuses on CCG's. You might get one or 2 people that might be interested until you start talking price and time commitment. They'll probably lose interest at that point because they have a small hobby budget and a booster box per month habit eats it all up.

The store owner is also going to be against the hobby if his focus is on CCG's. The space requirements for cards is less than the minimum GW layout. I've known multiple store owners that have crunched the numbers and the answer was always the same. The profit margin for GW merchandise is too low to keep in the store. He might let you have a small table to play on but you have to give up the space if he's having a busy night.

[Patrick Boyle]

Used to do it on a 5 day a week basis when I was a shop mook for GW. It's easy really.

Sure, people who were already wandering into a GW store out of either intent or curiosity in the first place, I'm not entirely sure that counts. The pool of friends and acquaintances I have to try convince all already have their own expensive/time consuming hobbies; PC gaming, game development, brewing beer, 501st Legion cosplayers, car tuning, or other less expensive tabletop games(X-wing, Android: Netrunner, general boardgaming). One chunk of them their eyes practically glaze over as I talk about what I do in my free time, another think it's cool but way too expensive to commit to when they see how much I've spent, and the others are already ex-40k players.

[Hokiecow]

It all has a very 2nd Edition - 1st Edition Rogue Trader vibe.

The use of decks of mission cards...

The buy anything and play with what you have...

The big de-emphasis on Army Lists...

The psychic phase...

It's like the game is going back full circle. Well now I can see why there were no FAQs for a year and they took down the Facebook page :)

-Larry

Does that mean by 9th ed or 10th Ed we will be back to 4th Ed?

- - - Updated - - -


Personally, I'm not thinking of leaving 40k because my "broken list" is not going to win anymore. I'm thinking about putting my models in extended storage because I'm thoroughly frightened that GW has blatantly decided to no longer write rules that promote a fun, healthy game. They are simply writing rules to sell models - and thats it. If there's any doubt thats what unbound is all about, I simply have to refer to the article where the staff are happily spamming their big expensive kits.

Wait what? In the end, you and your friends choose who and how to play the game. Making House Rules is nothing new. Go ahead and put your models away but you're missing out. The new edition will create a base of common rules that will get tweaked in almost all the gaming groups. Fun will find a way.

[Charon]

Wait what? In the end, you and your friends choose who and how to play the game. Making House Rules is nothing new. Go ahead and put your models away but you're missing out. The new edition will create a base of common rules that will get tweaked in almost all the gaming groups. Fun will find a way.

Making House rules is easier when you just have to agree to ignore certain restrictions or impose additional small restrictions (for us its "no special characters" and "allies have to fit in the same FOC - no additional slots").
Houseruling a "take all you want" system is getting a tiresome and boring administrational task. And thats just for 8 people. So it probably will come down to "we agree to use the FOC and discard it for campaign purposes". And to "I dont think I will ever make games again outside of this small group off people" cause the task of negotiating whats ok and what not with a stranger is really tiresome.

[Lord-Boofhead]

they have a small hobby budget and a booster box per month habit eats it all up.

Your definition of 'small budget' is interesting...

[40k_slimez]

One day they will invent a new type of image that repeat an animation. Until that day you will have to hit 'play' on the video... :(

What.. like an animated gif ...

[Lord-Boofhead]

What a lot of whining when all we have is a vague description of the new features in a WD editorial. From what it sounds like people are going to be able to run lore friendly things like armoured columns and all wraith armies and ASSUMING the new rules don't provide some checks and balances we don't know about if you think a particular army is broken don't bloody play against it.

PAYSF - Play As You See Fit.

- - - Updated - - -


Wait what? In the end, you and your friends choose who and how to play the game. Making House Rules is nothing new. Go ahead and put your models away but you're missing out. The new edition will create a base of common rules that will get tweaked in almost all the gaming groups. Fun will find a way.

PAYSF -Play As You see Fit!

[Eldar_Atog]

Your definition of 'small budget' is interesting...

I've known several people that were as poor as church mice but they would buy a booster box worth of Magic each month. I once watched the following exchange between a parent and a small child at a card shop.

Little girl: Daddy, can Mom and I go see a movie at the matinee today?
Father: No, we can't afford to do that.

He then goes and buys about 20 booster packs of Magic. At the time, packs were about $3 dollars apiece so he dropped $60 dollars plus tax... yet wouldn't spend $10 on 2 tickets to the matinee. Some people are just sorry..

[Lord Asterion]

What.. like an animated gif ...

What sorcery is this you speak of?

[DrBored]

I've known several people that were as poor as church mice but they would buy a booster box worth of Magic each month. I once watched the following exchange between a parent and a small child at a card shop.

Little girl: Daddy, can Mom and I go see a movie at the matinee today?
Father: No, we can't afford to do that.

He then goes and buys about 20 booster packs of Magic. At the time, packs were about $3 dollars apiece so he dropped $60 dollars plus tax... yet wouldn't spend $10 on 2 tickets to the matinee. Some people are just sorry..

That makes me all sorts of angry... but then, I've seen similar things happen with friends. "Hey man, want to go out and get a burger at McD's?" - "Nah, can't afford it *while building a brand new 100 dollar kit*" - He then goes on to complain about how he's had to skip meals. It's like, really people? There's this thing called a budget... and there's this sad thing called 'living beyond your means'...

[DarkLink]

Does that mean by 9th ed or 10th Ed we will be back to 4th Ed?

- - - Updated - - -



Wait what? In the end, you and your friends choose who and how to play the game. Making House Rules is nothing new. Go ahead and put your models away but you're missing out. The new edition will create a base of common rules that will get tweaked in almost all the gaming groups. Fun will find a way.

Why expend a massive amount of effort getting your gaming group together and agreeing on houserules because GW isn't willing to do it for you when you can just play Infinity or Wamahordes or Drop Zone Commander or Malifaux or X Wing or any of the other games out there?

[Lord Asterion]

Why expend a massive amount of effort getting your gaming group together and agreeing on houserules because GW isn't willing to do it for you when you can just play Infinity or Wamahordes or Drop Zone Commander or Malifaux or X Wing or any of the other games out there?

Have you ever actually played the game with a group of friends? Rules naturally get tweaked in all of those games just as much as in 40k. Thats what house ruling is, deciding on the points level and terrain set up method your group likes, conventions for rolling dice, its always been a part of table top games.

[silashand]

What a lot of whining when all we have is a vague description of the new features in a WD editorial. From what it sounds like people are going to be able to run lore friendly things like armoured columns and all wraith armies and ASSUMING the new rules don't provide some checks and balances we don't know about if you think a particular army is broken don't bloody play against it.

I don't always agree with Eldargal, but in this case she hit the nail on the head. The Unbound option will likely allow some really cool and fluffy army variants and I am all for that. If it proves problematic then since there are *two* options then there is nothing stopping folks, notably tournaments, from simply saying they are only accepting Battle Forged lists. Bunch of whinging over nothing if you ask me...

[DarkLink]

So why do people ask gw for faqs? Why are there balance issues in 40k at all? Why hasn't everyone just houseruled them all away?

Have you ever actually played in a large gaming community? If you had, you might see the disconnect between your previous statement and what I was saying. If I walked in and said that I had rewritten some of the rules I thought were unfair, people would just give me funny looks. In most large communities, people don't use houserules, and tournaments and other large events don't either, aside from using their own missions and the occasional faq.

And seriously? You think agreeing on points levels for a game really counts as houserules? I know there are certain things players agree upon. No ****. Rewriting core rules doesn't fall into that category, though.

[Lord Asterion]

So why do people ask gw for faqs? Why are there balance issues in 40k at all? Why hasn't everyone just houseruled them all away?

Have you ever actually played in a large gaming community? If you had, you might see the disconnect between your previous statement and what I was saying. If I walked in and said that I had rewritten some of the rules I thought were unfair, people would just give me funny looks. In most large communities, people don't use houserules, and tournaments and other large events don't either, aside from using their own missions and the occasional faq.

And seriously? You think agreeing on points levels for a game really counts as houserules? I know there are certain things players agree upon. No ****. Rewriting core rules doesn't fall into that category, though.

And no one talked about rewriting core rules, they talked about tweaks to make it more better for them. Lots of groups I've played with don't follow the terrain set up rules for example. You're just being facetious. People make do with rules agreements before there are FAQs, they don't roll off for it every time until an FAQ comes, ICs joining with Riptides is accepted for the moment, even through its grey area, thats a house rule, otherwise you'd have to roll off for it in every game according to the rules.

Guess it was a silly question to ask if you'd ever played with friends.

[Eulermaths]

Anyway, any more rumours? I can get whines all day, I teach maths.

[DarkLink]

It was a silly question, not to mention a rather insulting one. Of course I play with friends. I wouldn't play 40k otherwise. It's just rather narrow minded to assume that everyone loves 40k specifically so much they won't switch to other games if they feel 40k's quality drops. Maybe there will be relatively few stupid things, and everyone can easily agree to not play, say, unbound. That's pretty minor. But what if people decide thepsychic phase is stupid? Are you going to houserule that? Are you going to get people to play along? Probably not, not if you play with more than your tight group of immediate friends. And if 7th is plagued with issues, are you going to rewrite half the rulebook? No, the 'just houserule it" attitude isn't a bad one, it's just not practical for everyone.

[woodenronin]

This reminds me of 2nd edition with psychic phase and everything. A board game mixed with 40k.

[40k_slimez]

What sorcery is this you speak of?

Well, you start creating one in the magic^d^d^d^d^dpsychic phase... you get D6 + your total mastery level frames of animation to play with...
However, you competitors get the chance do dispel your sexy "animated gif" with a crappy inline video image tag.... looks like thats what's happened here....

[kippahjim]

I've been playing this game since the beginning and have quit once or twice because of "dumbing" down of the rules. But I have too much money invested in this game to quit for good. I really enjoy the fluff in the novels and codex's. Yes I would love to see close assault armies come back, rhino rushes, Harlequins on jet bikes that have swing on initiative power fists, and REAL harlequin kiss. Ohh and maybe the Solitaire. Wolves who are known more for assault than their shooting. CSM with more BALLS and coolness. But that is in the past but I'm sure ill still play in the tourney scene here in Houston no matter what abomination the rules might be because I love the game. and I get to push plastic army men across the table, role dice and make funny noises when they shoot.

[Tomgar]

That makes me all sorts of angry... but then, I've seen similar things happen with friends. "Hey man, want to go out and get a burger at McD's?" - "Nah, can't afford it *while building a brand new 100 dollar kit*" - He then goes on to complain about how he's had to skip meals. It's like, really people? There's this thing called a budget... and there's this sad thing called 'living beyond your means'...

I know this is kind of OT but I felt I had to reply. I agree with you that people should live within their means but sometimes circumstances are such that they don't for a fair enough reason. A while back, I was pretty poor and I was diagnosed with pretty bad depression (not because I was poor, I hasten to add). I won't go into details since a wargaming forum isn't the place but I found that I kept buying miniatures despite my financial situation because it helped me significantly in dealing with my condition. Taking part in the hobby gave me a focus, clarity of mind and drive that was well worth skipping breakfast now and then and cutting back on everything else.

Like I say, I mostly agree with you, but I wanted to show how there are reasons people behave like that besides financial stupidity or whatever.

ANYWAY, back onto the light-hearted stuff and arguments about balance, eh? :D

[Clockwork]

This was just shared over on Dakka:
8726

[jonsgot]

This reminds me of 2nd edition with psychic phase and everything. A board game mixed with 40k.

Add asset cards and It does look like a throw back to Dark millennium. Psychic phase, mission cards and psychic cards. I do hope there is no virus outbreak (all models die on a 3+ no save allowed). I can't believe they printed that one. :(

[Cutter]

This was just shared over on Dakka:
8726

"Laugh? I nearly s**t! I haven’t laughed so much since Grandma died, or Auntie Mabel caught her left t*t in the mangle..."

But seriously folks, Dangles summoning Balrogs...it'll end in tears...

...of laughter...

...mostly mine...

[Wolfshade]

You know the stuff has hit the fan when you summon a blood thirster.

[Littha]

And now GW has successfully figured out a way to boost their greater daemon sales... I hope we at least get a new set of models for them.

[Wolfshade]

Please excuse me while I replace my librarian with this:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/bloodt.jpg

Oh ho, looks like I'm in base-to-base combat with your army....

[Cutter]

And now GW has successfully figured out a way to boost their greater daemon sales... I hope we at least get a new set of models for them.

I hope so too, their 'finely detailed resin cast kit's are superBOLS.

[Defenestratus]

"Laugh? I nearly s**t! I haven’t laughed so much since Grandma died, or Auntie Mabel caught her left t*t in the mangle..."

But seriously folks, Dangles summoning Balrogs...it'll end in tears...

...of laughter...

...mostly mine...

This is too much.

7th Edition 40k: "We're all Chaos Now!"

[Cutter]

This is too much.

7th Edition 40k: "We're all Chaos Now!"

Everything is chaos
Everything is cool when you're part of a cult
Everything is chaos, when we're living daboarder's dream

[Clockwork]

I have a feeling (by the bit about "allowing" Ezekial access to the powers) that this was either playtesting or a "let's try this out" sort of thing. It wouldn't be the first time something in the WD isn't an option we can take in the games (Tacticals with Heavy Flamers).

[Wolfshade]

Everything is chaos
Everything is cool when you're part of a cult
Everything is chaos, when we're living daboarder's dream

President Defiler approves

- - - Updated - - -


I have a feeling (by the bit about "allowing" Ezekial access to the powers) that this was either playtesting or a "let's try this out" sort of thing. It wouldn't be the first time something in the WD isn't an option we can take in the games (Tacticals with Heavy Flamers).

This is true, it might have been part of the narrative of the game.

[Cutter]

President Defiler approves

- - - Updated - - -



This is true, it might have been part of the narrative of the game.

I dunno, the text in WD seemed fairly clear to me,

"There are two types of Daemonology, Sanctic and Malefic, and the latter is going to change the future of war altogether - it enables psykers to summon the fell denizens of the Warp to do their bidding on the battlefield!"

And to emphasize how cool this is, we have the Dangle side-bar.

[Clockwork]

I dunno, the text in WD seemed fairly clear to me,

"There are two types of Daemonology, Sanctic and Malefic, and the latter is going to change the future of war altogether - it enables psykers to summon the fell denizens of the Warp to do their bidding on the battlefield!"

And to emphasize how cool this is, we have the Dangle side-bar.

And we've seen stuff in the WD that wasn't able to be taken in game as presented (5 model squads of Dominons in the Battle Report could take 4 Specials but in the WD Codex that came out in the following issue they could not).

[Wolfshade]

I only read the dangle bar, fnar!

[Cutter]

And we've seen stuff in the WD that wasn't able to be taken in game as presented (5 model squads of Dominons in the Battle Report could take 4 Specials but in the WD Codex that came out in the following issue they could not).

I guess we'll have to wait and see :-)

[Wolfshade]

The words that stick out:


pyskers except Tryanids

[Cutter]

The words that stick out:

I guess the hive mind has no soul :-)

[Clockwork]

I guess the hive mind has no soul :-)
There is a fluff bit from the Nid book (I think) that basically says that as Daemons find what passes for their souls unpalatable, and their lack of emotions of the other races a problem, while the Nids eventually came to see Daemons as another Alpha-Predator and changed from trying to hunt it to trying to kill it (the Nids won partly because of their Shadow in the Warp making it hard for Chaos to get a foothold in the material universe around them).

[Cutter]

I only read the dangle bar, fnar!

I now all I can think about is replacing Kairos Fateweaver's staff with a cross and nailing the Exemplar of the Host to it...

(sans jump pack, (s)natch)

I blame everybody else...

[The Imperial Fist]

This was just shared over on Dakka:
8726

I feel the urge to go out and purchase a Bloodthirster... Just to do it once for giggles. Especially now Lysander apparently consorts with Daemons (F*ck you Ben Counter, f*ck you).

- - - Updated - - -


I have a feeling (by the bit about "allowing" Ezekial access to the powers) that this was either playtesting or a "let's try this out" sort of thing. It wouldn't be the first time something in the WD isn't an option we can take in the games (Tacticals with Heavy Flamers).

Indeed, this made me excited, then sad when I realised my Tacticals couldn't take them.

[Harley]

I have a feeling (by the bit about "allowing" Ezekial access to the powers) that this was either playtesting or a "let's try this out" sort of thing. It wouldn't be the first time something in the WD isn't an option we can take in the games (Tacticals with Heavy Flamers).


I sincerely hope you are correct. Imagine the horrible cheese if you finally get Mephiston down to 1 wound only to have him resurrect himself as a Bloodthirster which then proceeds to annihilate your weakened army.

Tbh everything I've read from 7th sounds disappointing so far. No % to balance spam lists, starter set too similar to Black Reach, invalidation of old card with new required cards, Apocalypse-lite Unbound lists and a general feeling of uncaring for balance in favor of "narrative" play even if that narrative is your army constantly getting defeated every game in some misogynistic Wardian fantasy.

[lattd]

I have a feeling summoning said greater daemon could back fire by it attacking you or just failing to summon it but you have to sacrifice the unit it's self, maybe it only has as many wounds as the sacrificed model has when you summon it?

[Mr Mystery]

Also worth noting appears to be anti-deamon daemonology.

Sounds like bad guys summon, good guys banish.

[DrLove42]

Also worth noting appears to be anti-deamon daemonology.

Sounds like bad guys summon, good guys banish.

I think GW typically consider Dark Angels to be the good guys though...

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah......missed that bit....

Though it does suggest something unpleasant happened to Ezekiel....

[silashand]

I have a feeling summoning said greater daemon could back fire by it attacking you or just failing to summon it but you have to sacrifice the unit it's self, maybe it only has as many wounds as the sacrificed model has when you summon it?

If it works like in WFB it will likely be a table you roll on. Roll high and you get some big nasty. Roll low and you turn into a spawn. Roll average and you get some sort of lower daemons.

[Littha]

Hopefully daemons themselves will get some sort of bonus if they do have a table like that.

[The Imperial Fist]

Hopefully daemons themselves will get some sort of bonus if they do have a table like that.

Aye, and Daemonhunters get a bonus on the banish table.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yey. Daemons.

[Clockwork]

From tetrisphreak on Dakka:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Chibi_Zion/WD004_zps8955424a.jpg

[DrLove42]

Tau and Marines desperate allies? Signs of tightening up the allies matrix or just choice of wording?

[Defenestratus]

Tau and Marines desperate allies? Signs of tightening up the allies matrix or just choice of wording?

I'm more excited that a Hive Tyrant actually beat a riptide in combat. Perhaps a nerf coming to MC's smash attack?

[Charon]

I'm more excited that a Hive Tyrant actually beat a riptide in combat. Perhaps a nerf coming to MC's smash attack?

Can be simpler... If the Riptide doesnt get his 3++ (due to rolling 1 or 2) the Tyrants chances are pretty ok.
Add in a possible 6 from Boneswords or Catalyst and his chances are actually guite good.

[Patrick Boyle]

Tau and Marines desperate allies? Signs of tightening up the allies matrix or just choice of wording?

Given the wording in follow up sentences about sideways glances, shifty maneuvers, and the Tyranids not having those "problems", it sounds to me like it's not just wording and Tau and Marines are going to be Desperate Allies, or whatever the equivalent will be in the overhauled allied matrix the other WD leaks talk about.

[DarkLink]

It's not that unreasonable for a Tyrant to win currently. They usually get shot to death first is all.