Male Sisters of Battle

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Bigred]

Oh, Aldramelech, I'm crying, I'm laughing so hard!

Just play nice and you you all can have it....

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Artein]

It's possible that somewhere in the Imperium there is an order of truly faithful men. They may even have some means to get power armours and bolter, tho I'd be tricky. They wouldn't work for Ecclesiarchy for sure.

[Denzark]

Where is she when you need her...?

[Culven]

Are we sure that the Sisters of Battle are really women? They could be transvestites for all we know.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

they apparently hang out with the slann, squats, chaos tau, zoats and female space marines. Usually at their bingo night.

[Denzark]

The breasts on the minis are obvious but who knows what is hiding in the codpiece...

[Melissia]

Lol. That's like saying a female Samurai.

But seriously, unlike Space Marines there are actual restrictions put on the Sisterhood.

[Warfare]

Actually, this is better:


Regardless of your inane response, the fact still remains-- this is a sci-fi. Science fiction. In fiction, each gender is capable of what the author wants them to be capable of. There is no reasonable difference between a female Guard and male Guard. Or a male or female Tau (actually most humans wouldn't be able to tell the difference...). Or male or female Eldar. Or male or female Necron. Orks have no gender and use masculine terms because that's the default for the English language, not because they are actually male (one could argue that all Orks are male, but that wouldn't exactly say much about male intelligence). An insanely faithful male that is trained to the utmost potential of a human being would be similar to a Sister of Battle if put inside military-grade power armor, even if by legal and religious decree there can be no males in their organization. For all three roleplaying games, there is no difference between males and females except how society treats them and what part of reproduction they take, and for the former even THAT is only on specific planets. The (marines) are the most elite human military organization in the Imperium, and they are all (male).

For the most part, it doesn't matter what gender someone in 40k is. The grimdark does not care if you are male or female.

'=)'

[Nabterayl]

Oh, calm down, you two.

Warfare, Mel makes a good point. It's a regular science fiction trope to assume that men and women, as populations, are equally capable - particularly that they're equally capable of soldiering. 40K plainly adopts that trope. Every rule system we have set in this universe adopts it, the Guard fluff adopts it without blinking an eye, and the Adepta Sororitas fluff adopts it as well. For any reasonable narrative purpose, there are an unlimited number of women in the Imperium to fill the ranks of whatever physically demanding job you want.

Adopting the trope of equal physical and mental toughness, however, is separate from adopting the common science fiction trope of men and women being social equals. That trope is one that 40K does not adopt, at least not with respect to the Imperium taken as a whole. The Imperium resembles the early middle ages in that women are not assumed to be the social equals of men throughout its borders. It does not resemble the early middle ages in rejecting women as warriors.

Can we all agree on that? Or do we need to repeat the above two paragraphs over the next twenty posts?

[RocketRollRebel]

I actually just heard a thing from the BBC on NPR the other day about a convent in England accepting male nuns. So I say yes! :p

[crazyredpraetorian]

Turn about is fair play.:)

[Fellend]

Melissa Isn't the 5th SM codex or the 4th Black Templar codex recent enough for you? Because it says MAN right in there.

And using all the lame excuses you used it's so easy to say that there are male SoB out there. Maybe a planet was cut off from the Imperium and thus they trained males, maybe there's a planet with only males so they have male SoB

Thinking about it the only reason as too why there are no male SoB is a simple rule. Which we all know are easy to break.
Male astartes at least involves genetics.

[Just_Me]

Are we sure that the Sisters of Battle are really women? They could be transvestites for all we know.

Well, that does appear to be GW's thinking when they sculpted those faces...

[Nabterayl]

Melissa Isn't the 5th SM codex or the 4th Black Templar codex recent enough for you? Because it says MAN right in there.

And using all the lame excuses you used it's so easy to say that there are male SoB out there. Maybe a planet was cut off from the Imperium and thus they trained males, maybe there's a planet with only males so they have male SoB

Thinking about it the only reason as too why there are no male SoB is a simple rule. Which we all know are easy to break.
Male astartes at least involves genetics.
Back! Back to the other thread!

[Faultie]

Back! Back to the other thread!

It's too late! They've burst through the containment zone! Run for your lives!

[Melissia]

The power of the Emperor compels you!
The power of the Emperor compels you!
The power of the Emperor compels you!

[Duke]

Aldra, you crack me up buddy! Seriously people no hijacking this thread.

[Kettu]

Melissa Isn't the 5th SM codex or the 4th Black Templar codex recent enough for you? Because it says MAN right in there.

And using all the lame excuses you used it's so easy to say that there are male SoB out there. Maybe a planet was cut off from the Imperium and thus they trained males, maybe there's a planet with only males so they have male SoB

Thinking about it the only reason as too why there are no male SoB is a simple rule. Which we all know are easy to break. Male astartes at least involves genetics.

Genetics isn't really a problem.
If you have the ability to obtain a DNA map in less then an hour CSI style then you sure as warp have the ability to manipulate it to your hearts content.
The reason why female marines are not just 'scienced' into existence is because of law. Law is also why Male SoBs are a no no.

And currently there are many departments of the Imperium (Read: All of them) that are looking for any and all excuses to cause trouble for the Ecclesiarchy ever since Vandire and the purges that went on in his wake shattered their Ivory Towers.
As it stands the Ecclesiarchy has trouble enough with the frateris militia, finding the balance between frothing the masses into a horrific frenzy and straight out telling them what to do. (Effectively breaking the 'No men under arms' law)
The Law itself was written that way by Sebastian Thor so that the Ecclesiarchy would be allowed to keep the then Daughters of the Emperor.

There is the idea of a cut-off world making their own male church militant but the moment contact is re-established they at best would be disbanded and worst, branded heretics and purged.

[Duke]

I can't believe this is actually happening...

[Madjob]

Lol. That's like saying a female Samurai.

But seriously, unlike Space Marines there are actual restrictions put on the Sisterhood.

You're debating against fluffy fake science that, regardless of whether you like it or not, is not a point of debate because it is as intrinsic to the setting as accepting the silliness of plasma based weaponry, a dimension full of soul-eating monsters, etc. etc. while on the other hand claiming a legal loophole is set in stone.

And boy, do I regret seeing this thread almost immediately turn into a continuation of the one it's mocking.

[Duke]

I just can't believe that the same people who were saying fsm-si are now saying no male sob... Don't they realize they are only arguing against themselves!

[crazyredpraetorian]

My next army will be the Brothers of Battle, an all female force of burly, manly women that yearn to be males. They use the strength of the anguish due to their man envy to serve the Emperor, in the hopes that the Emperor may grant them equipment. The whole army will ride bikes and use pick-up trucks for transports. They will dress in baggy clothes and wear big manly watches.

[Gotthammer]

From a reply I made in that other thread:


Dude if you want boob marines, whatever, I want Male Sisters of Battle. Now tell me why I can't do it.

What is your reasoning for them besides a poor attempt at trolling? All I would tell you would be ways I think you could perhaps improve whatever reasoning you came up with as I encourage creativity in the hobby rather than stamping on it whenever it doesn't fit my worldview.

The main issue why you couldn't would be the SoB minis being highly ornate and clearly female needing a workaround.
1st option is to find a similar line of figures, probably ornate templar style knights that could take modification. A series with generic guys with crossbows would easily lend itself to bolter conversions. Reaper's Warlord line has the Crusader's faction (http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/Crusaders/sku-down) that could work, although they would need shoulderpads and =I= iconography added (lack of plastic kits will hurt here unless you're proficient with greenstuff moulding or sculpting).

For background you could do it a pre-or-during-apostasy force under Vandire, or an early M30's ecclesiarchal force. The other option is say it's a Chamber militant of a different Ordos of Inquisitors, still with a religious bent but not technically the Ecclesiarcy's army to get around the void on men under arms. Mutant Hunters or somesuch, I'm kinda making this up as I go so that's the best you're getting right now.

2nd option is to go the farcical route and have it like that episode of Slayers where the guys have to dress up as girls to hide in a temple where men are killed on sight and Zelgadis falls for a woman there and finally reveals himself to be a man but then the woman also turns out to be a man, as does every 'woman' in the temple - they were all to scared to reveal their gender due to the ban on men, and hilarity ensues.
You could probably source some 60's/Beatles type heads easily enough to fit the bob cut of the femal sisters so it's subtle enough that people might miss painting on a five o'clock shadow at first glance.
If you wanted a more serious reason it could be that the men come from a matriarchal society so the warrior men must dress like women in an inversion of the ancient habit of female warriors having to appear as men.

[BuFFo]

Warfare, Mel makes a good point.

Rarely, if ever, and especially not here.... ;)


My next army will be the Brothers of Battle, an all female force of burly, manly women that yearn to be males. They use the strength of the anguish due to their man envy to serve the Emperor, in the hopes that the Emperor may grant them equipment. The whole army will ride bikes and use pick-up trucks for transports. They will dress in baggy clothes and wear big manly watches.

OMG....

So funny.... I pissed myself reading this.... !!!!!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[BuFFo]

Two words: Lady Gaga!

Canoness Gaga or Grandmaster Gaga?

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Sangre]

I'm deeply in love with this thread.

Deeply.

[Necrosis]

Looks like my plan to kill this thread failed. I shall come up with another. MUHAHAHA!

[Sangre]

Looks like my plan to kill this thread failed. I shall come up with another. MUHAHAHA!

Have you not heard of me before?

[Cyberscape7]

LMFAO!!! LOL LMAO.
But seriously. SISTERS of battle. Cant be any boys there. Now SOB and SM mating, THERES a discussion...

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Lerra]

Sisters of Battle are already all male. I mean, the models are real and fluff is not (after all, you can physically hold the models). And it's pretty obvious that they are all transvestites with wigs in the real world.

If you want an all-female army, you have to go with the Eldar. I'm pretty sure that male Eldar are heresy.

[Denzark]

I must resist ... I must resist...

[Fellend]

As for modeling you could just take imperial guard, give them lots of purity seals and bolters add some space marine shoulder pads and you are you pretty much have male SoBs

[Sangre]

Or just use Space Marines.

After all, they're the same thing.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

This is the most idiotic discussion i've seen for quite some time.

There is no such thing as a male sister of battle, otherwise they wouldn't be sisters of battle, would they.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[B_Steele]

There is no such thing as a male sister of battle, otherwise they wouldn't be sisters of battle, would they.

But yet female Battle Brothers are okay? Hmm?

Okay...in all seriousness. I would fight against the canonical travesty that would be a male member of the Adeptus Sororitas as fervently as I do against the following:

1. female Adeptus Astartes
2. non-biological Tyranids
3. non-green Orks
4. Chaos Tau
5. Special Characters invading every army fielded
6. cheesy 'build-from-the-internet' armies
7. the colour peuce
8. twangy country music

and

9. reality television.

Okay, so not everything up there is relevant...but I am a fluff-freak, so it only makes sense in my world. :)

Also, as a side note, I have an email in to Jervis asking about his opinions on FSM and MSoB...if only to have a laugh with him aboutit. :)

Cheers all,
Bry

[Melissia]

Male Sororitas are in a completely different category than Female Astartes, B.Steele :P

The only thing keeping female astartes from existing are the genetic implants, which the Imperium has messed around with before.

The term Male Sororitas or Male Sister of Battle is (much like female samurai) a contradiction in terms. They are defined as women, whereas Marines are not defined as men insomuch as they are defined by their implants which are most compatible with men as far as we know.

[Gotthammer]

Is this aimed at me?

If so, I'm not Trolling. This is just supposed to be a light hearted, humorous sorbet to clear the pallet, an opportunity for everyone to kiss and make up.

Ive stated my opinion a very long time ago on the subject of "Gender", but it was soooo long ago I'll restate my position.

I don't care what you put on the table, as long as its painted.............

Nah, I just copy pasted my whole response from the thread which shall not be named and couldn't be bothered editing it.

[Faultie]

For background you could do it a pre-or-during-apostasy force under Vandire, or an early M30's ecclesiarchal force. The other option is say it's a Chamber militant of a different Ordos of Inquisitors, still with a religious bent but not technically the Ecclesiarcy's army to get around the void on men under arms. Mutant Hunters or somesuch, I'm kinda making this up as I go so that's the best you're getting right now.
I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. Now, they wouldn't be official "Adepta Sororitas", just as females that match (almost) exactly the abilities/make-up/function of a Space Marines wouldn't be "Adeptus Astartes", but it would allow you to field an army that is functionally the same, with the same fervent belief in the Emperor, etc. That's actually a pretty decent idea.

Also, I do not officially have an opinion on this topic...again.

[Renegade]

Male Sororitas are in a completely different category than Female Astartes, B.Steele :P

The only thing keeping female astartes from existing are the genetic implants, which the Imperium has messed around with before.

The term Male Sororitas or Male Sister of Battle is (much like female samurai) a contradiction in terms. They are defined as women, whereas Marines are not defined as men insomuch as they are defined by their implants which are most compatible with men as far as we know.

Except that all SM are referred to as a Battle Brother and are all Sons of various Primarchs.

Saying that, I am pretty much willing to go against any army thats put on the table even if it is like nails down the chalk bored for a fluff nerd.

For the Empress!

[Melissia]

Just like Orks are referred to as Boyz, but they are neither male nor female. Male pronouns are generally default.

[Rapture]

Just like Orks are referred to as Boyz, but they are neither male nor female. Male pronouns are generally default.

If you reach out any farther you might fall off of the stage.

[Sangre]

Male Sororitas are in a completely different category than Female Astartes, B.Steele :P

The only thing keeping female astartes from existing are the genetic implants, which the Imperium has messed around with before.

The term Male Sororitas or Male Sister of Battle is (much like female samurai) a contradiction in terms. They are defined as women, whereas Marines are not defined as men insomuch as they are defined by their implants which are most compatible with men as far as we know.

Nowhere is it stated that male Sisters don't exist. It's a hell of a lot more likely than FSM.

[crazyredpraetorian]

I saw a bunch of women on Harleys yesterday. It would be hard to call them anything but male sisters or shmans or something similar. My point is real life counterparts do exist.

I used to work with a transgender stripper that was 6'3" and she/he was technically still a man. Now, I ask you if a 6'3" man can be a female stripper in real life, why can't a man be an SOB in fiction.:D

[Sangre]

This is the best thread ever.

[Duke]

Just like Orks are referred to as Boyz, but they are neither male nor female. Male pronouns are generally default.

In that case, your a total MAN.

I find myself being ANTI- Dudes of battle (DOB) For the same reasons that I am ANTI-FSM and proud!

1. There are no female Space marines, and there never will be (In official cannon)
2. There are no Homies of Battle, and there never will be (in official cannon)

Now if you want to be ignorantly stubborn, or just want to have fun with your own background then have at it with a FSM or HOB army.

DUKE

[MVBrandt]

This is the most idiotic discussion i've seen for quite some time.

There is no such thing as a male sister of battle, otherwise they wouldn't be sisters of battle, would they.

This guy disagrees with you, and all the other naysayers. WHO SAYS THERE CAN'T BE MALE SISTERS?

(NSFW)
http://coolest-homemade-costumes.shippony.com/images/stereotypes/cross-dressing/funny-halloween-costumes-02.jpg

[L192837465]

Just like Orks are referred to as Boyz, but they are neither male nor female. Male pronouns are generally default.

And white "gangstas" call other white "gangstas" n-bombs. Does this mean they're black? If I cut my groin with a soldering iron and suddenly care what shoes I wear, does that make me a woman? Your point is retarded.

Scientology is actually not based on science. You should get out more.

\This post was made with as much humor as I could muster at 10:30am and only 1/2 cup of coffee...

[Duke]

@L192...
Welcome to dealing with M. You will find nothing of well thought out arguments and in their place you will find only a stubborn person who is more dogmatic than anything. I warn you to not use things like: Logic, reasoning, history, or fact. You have been warned.

Duke

[Sangre]

She's like me only not charismatic and handsome.

[Gotthammer]

There is no official canon to support that statement, that's just your own fanfiction :p

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Duke]

I reject your reality and insert my own.

I am the most beautiful being ever... With the exception of Megan Fox, cause that would be Nerd-blasphmey

Duke

[Fellend]

The sad thing is that clearly genetics and 10 000 years of tradition and a direct lineage to the Emperor is easy to overcome.
But the High Lords of Terra saying no is impossible to get past.

There's not even a logical reason as to why BoB's wouldn't just appear. The elite soldiers like kasrkin have the same combat training. Just teach them to pray more and hand them better equipment.

[Sangre]

I reject your reality and insert my own.

I am the most beautiful being ever... With the exception of Megan Fox, cause that would be Nerd-blasphmey

Duke

I swear to god I will duel you. I will duel your bollocks off.

[Melissia]

Regardless of the great deal of trolling (by normally respectable posters no less) in this thread...
Nowhere is it stated that male Sisters don't exist. It's a hell of a lot more likely than FSM.

Just like there was never a statement of female Samurai not existing, but the fact is that a "male sister of battle" is a contradiction in terms, just like a female samurai-- the terms are gender-specific. It's like saying "male wife" or "female father", to use a better known English term. It's something that is less common in English than in other languages to be sure (Spanish has far more of this, to be sure-- a female bombero is nonsensical, even if people would get what you mean), but exists. A "male valkyrie" suffers from the same problems.

There could exist an organization called the Brothers of Battle. In fact there probably does-- warrior organizations are common throughout the Imperium. One of them might even be elite and have power armor, although it'd be a stretch to think that they'd have military-grade power armor, but civilian power armor is still quite useful and even enhances the user's strength and provides much better protection than carapace. But they are not "Male Sisters of Battle", nor are they part of the Adepta Sororitas, as this organization rather strictly forbids it. The Space Marines have no such law forbidding female Astartes, only the genetics of their implant.

So the point of my argument wasn't that there could never be human males with equivalent equipment and training to that of the Sisters, rather, the point was simply that these could never be Sisters of Battle by definition. Female Space Marines, however contested they are, can theoretically exist because the hurdles that they must jump over are not so high. What some moronic "gangsta" in the streets says is irrelevant.


Fellend: The elite soldiers of Cadia, for all their prowess, are still not as elite as the Sisters. Kasrkyn and Stormtroopers do not have the combat prowess of the Sororitas (a friend argued that this is because they focus their training somewhere else-- such as in infiltration and sneaking around, and so on-- but regardless of why it is so, it still is).

[Duke]

Actually, getting around sisters of battle would be a lot easier than getting around genetics. However, I still say that there are no male SOB, just like there aren't any FSM.

Duke

[Melissia]

No it wouldn't. You wouldn't have "male sisters of battle", you'd have another organization which is similar to the Sisters of Battle but isn't a part of it. A wide variety of mutations and oddities dot the Astartes chapters, leading them to differ-- sometimes quite drastically-- from eachother. And yet despite all of this, they are all labeled Adeptus Astartes (or for the traitors, the overarching definition of Space Marines-- although I choose not to consider them because they have an entirely different standard). It is not too much of a stretch of the mind to think that a female Space Marine chapter could end up in the same situation as, say, the Black Dragons... distrusted but loyal to the Imperium, proving their loyalty and earning their freedom from the Inquisition's baleful eye.

The Sisters are, by comparison, a strikingly homogenous group. What little variation there is is purely ideological and military (different tactics, different prayers, etc), and all Sisters must be free of mutation and the taint of chaos, pure beyond a shadow of a doubt and pious (to the point of near-insanity, some would argue, but that's a matter of personal perspective). They are employed by the Ecclesiarchy, and that organization is not allowed to have an army of men at arms and it is only through using a loophole in that law that the Sisters exist.

One could play an army of the Frateris Templar to be similar to that of the Sororitas, but that is similar to playing an army of pre-heresy Death Guard-- there is nothing wrong with doing that, but you're playing in an entirely different era (~35-36,000, as opposed to 41,000), and an entirely different organization as well, even if they fulfil a similar purpose.

[Duke]

All it would take is for someone on Terra to change their mind. It happens all the time now where Religious organizations change their minds.

Duke

[Melissia]

This is true. But that would require a rather major retcon to do that, similar to if someone tried to retcon the fact that the Astartes are independent of the rest of the Imperium as far as authority goes (I wonder how many people would fight it if someone suggested THAT...)

[Lerra]

I don't think people would have a problem with counts-as Sisters of Battle with male models. I still run into problems with non-loyalist female space marines =/

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Melissia]

Perhaps, but schismatics (those whom participate in a schism) are not part of the Adepta Sororitas, as the organization as a whole belongs to the Ecclesiarchy, which itself opposes all schismatics rather violently.

[BDub]

Lol. That's like saying a female Samurai.

Actually no, it's not. Samurai is a social class and therefore there are female Samurai. If you are talking more specifically about Samurai Warriors then female varieties are almost non-existent. . .almost.

But yes, there are specific restrictions on the Ecclesiarchy preventing "male" military combatants, therefore the Sisters of Battle are a loophole around that.

[Melissia]

Samurai is a social class, but one unique to males. A "female samurai" would not really exist-- the closest that I recall would be something like "onna bugeisha", meaning something close to "female warrior of the buke class". But mind you, my knowledge of ancient Japanese culture isn't that complete, so you may very well be right.

[Aims]

Okay, people... as an official warning: I realize that this thread is supposed to be humorous, but the personal attacks are starting up again and I'm getting a little tired of seeing a ton of complaint emails when I'm supposed to be writing a 30 page paper that's due by tomorrow morning. BE NICE, PEOPLE!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Forever_Bunny]

Wait...I need to do this one joke...

What do you get when you cross a Female Space Marine and a Male Sister Of Battle?

Emperor's Childern...:p

I know lame...but I only got 2hrs on sleep...sue me:D

[Faultie]

Rimshot! (http://instantrimshot.com/)

[Duke]

Samurai is a social class, but one unique to males. A "female samurai" would not really exist-- the closest that I recall would be something like "onna bugeisha", meaning something close to "female warrior of the buke class". But mind you, my knowledge of ancient Japanese culture isn't that complete, so you may very well be right.

Here is evidence that your precious female Samurai exist. Google "Tomoe Gozen." So you will need to re-formulate your argument.


Duke

[Sangre]

Here is evidence that your precious female Samurai exist. Google "Tomoe Gozen." So you will need to re-formulate your argument.


Duke

It's Melissia, lol.

[Duke]

@Sangre: True, but we probably won't get time to hear the newly formulated argument because the thread will likely get closed before... As such Ill provide it for you "Shut up sangre!" lol

Duke

[Melissia]

Here is evidence that your precious female Samurai exist. Google "Tomoe Gozen." So you will need to re-formulate your argument.


Duke

I already know of Tomoe Gozen, that does not necessarily mean that she is a female samurai, only that we Westerners whom have know understanding of Japanese history and culture refer to her as such. I also know of Empress Jingu, Nakano Takeko, and Hojo Masako, amongst others. I'm not necessarily an expert, but I haven't seen any evidence that they were referred to as "Samurai", but rather by other terms.

[Duke]

I already know of Tomoe Gozen, that does not necessarily mean that she is a female samurai, only that we Westerners whom have know understanding of Japanese history and culture refer to her as such. I also know of Empress Jingu, Nakano Takeko, and Hojo Masako, amongst others.


"Tomoe Gozen (巴 御前?) (1157?–1247?) was one of the few examples of a true female warrior samurai in all of Japanese history. She was a samurai during the time of the Genpei War (1180–1185). Her name is pronounced [tomo.e]." - Wikipedia.

Wrong again Melissa. please find me a direct quote that says she is not a female Samurai.

It is really getting old how stubborn you are. Even when you are provided with a more substantial argument that has actual evidence you still refuse.

Duke

[Melissia]

If you want to quote wikipedia, I can too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna_bugeisha
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_the_duties_of_the_female_samurai


And I can provide other links supporting my argument, no need to rely entirely on wikipedia, which is not acceptable as a scholastic reference (amusing fact, this very thread came up in the second page of my search)

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Culture_files/Nihon_to_files/Female_samurai.htm
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Onna-bugeisha


Yes, I'm stubborn, but your link proved nothing. As I said before, the concept of gender-specific terms is something that many Westerners-- particularly Americans whom quite frequently know only one language (and even barely that sometimes...), the type of person whom edits Wikipedia most frequently-- do not quite grasp. Samurai is one of them.

[rkiviman]

You mean like there aren't any restrictions on space marines??

[Duke]

All he is saying in his poorly cited document is that LINGUISTICALLY there cannot exist a "female Samurai," however, even in his own paper he states that sociologically they do exist.

Mentioning languages:
What do you call a person who speaks several languages? - Poly-lingual
What do you call a person who speaks two languages? - Bi-lingual
What do you call a person who speaks one language? - American!

Duke

PS- If this goes any further it should really be held in PM, respectfully.

[Melissia]

Sociologically yes, which is why the term "Onna Bugeisha" was-- and stil is-- used, because it is linguistically correct and applies to the same sociological construct.

What do you call a person who speaks one language? - American!
Lol, and this is sadly true. Despite living in Texas where you'd think most people would know Spanish and English (Due to the fact that Middle- and South-American immigrants are a huge part of our current culture), most of this state know either one or the other...

[Duke]

So ill agree with you that, linguistically "Female Samurai," doesn't exist. I still assert that Female Samurai exist from the basis of our discussion, which is a sociological one and not a linguistic one.

Duke

[Melissia]

To drag this at least slightly back on topic...

Still, it doesn't entirely apply to "male sisters of battle", except that such a term is linguistically incorrect. "Sisters of Battle" are all-female by linguistic definition and through religious and legal rules, preventing there from being a true "Brother of Battle" unless this was retconned. There could be male equivalents to the Sisters somewhere in the galaxy, however rare and small they might be, insanely faithful males in power armor trained to the utmost limits of the human martial capacity, some of whom might even have the Emperor's blessings. But they aren't Sisters of Battle, linguistically, legally, or religiously-- the closest you could get, as mentioned before, would be the old Frateris Templar from before Vandire's Age of Apostasy and Sebastian Thor's reforms. To be a Sister of Battle would require one to be part of the organization, the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, which itself requires one to be female as they aren't allowed to have men at arms.

I wouldn't stop anyone from making a male equivalent army and then playing them with the Sisters of Battle rules, I just object to the term "male sister of battle" or claims that these units are part of the Adepta Sororitas.

[Ole]

Without wanting to interrupt your discussion, a thought that just occured to me: Couldn't the High Lords (or any other suitable official) write a decree that actually states that some men are to be considered (legally) women, thereby allowing said men (ehh, women now, sorry) to actually bear arms and fight for the ecclesiarchy? I mean, it would be pretty crazy (or totally nuts), but hell, history as well as 40k is full of crazy people and if the Emperor wills it...

btw, don't take that idea too seriously - it's 1am now and I suffer from a lack of sleep

[Melissia]

Anything technically is possible when it comes to legal matters and politicians (if you want some amusing examples, go read Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's "Sigmar's Heirs" supplement), but I don't see why they would, or why this would allow them to become Sisters of Battle unless it was a very strange circumstance (And even then...).

Keep in mind a few things...

The Sisters recruit from the Schola Progenium, which itself takes in orphans at a very young age.

The Schola Progenium continually and repeatedly checks its charges for corruption in numerous ways (gene-scans, purity tests, etc)

The Schola Progenium attempts to nudge biologically female charges towards the Sororitas and biologically male charges towards the other professions. This explains why most (but not all) Commissars and Stormtroopers are male, by the way.

The Sisters repeatedly test their novitiates in similar ways.


While it is technically possible that a transgendered male could end up in the Sisterhood, it is very unlikely. Why perform a sex change on an orphan too young to talk?

[DarkLink]

All he is saying in his poorly cited document is that LINGUISTICALLY there cannot exist a "female Samurai," however, even in his own paper he states that sociologically they do exist.

Mentioning languages:
What do you call a person who speaks several languages? - Poly-lingual
What do you call a person who speaks two languages? - Bi-lingual
What do you call a person who speaks one language? - American!

Duke

PS- If this goes any further it should really be held in PM, respectfully.

What is the purpose of war?

To teach Americans geography.


Sociologically yes, which is why the term "Onna Bugeisha" was-- and stil is-- used, because it is linguistically correct and applies to the same sociological construct.

Lol, and this is sadly true. Despite living in Texas where you'd think most people would know Spanish and English (Due to the fact that Middle- and South-American immigrants are a huge part of our current culture), most of this state know either one or the other...

Sometimes I'm not convinced everyone is fluent in one language, and I'm talking about people in college:rolleyes:.

[Just_Me]

Nowhere is it stated that male Sisters don't exist. It's a hell of a lot more likely than FSM.

I can't believe I am actually doing this, but strictly speaking that isn't true. In fact the Sisters of Battle are the only Imperial organization whose membership has been specifically stated to be restricted by sex and gender. In that sense, as all of the sex and gender restrictions on space marines are technically incidental (as opposed to literally spelled out), and though I personally am not a fan of "female space marines," they are "more" possible than "male sisters of battle."

On another note, arguing linguistic semantics (e.g. there cannot be male sisters of battle because that term is an oxymoron) is a pointless method of dodging the question. We can all (I would think) recognize that the term is being used as a hypothetical place-holder, and we are not actually referring to "male sisters."

Similarly "female Samurai" is not a linguistic contradiction on par with "male sister," as the former ascribes gender to a social position and role that incidentally is limited by gender, while the latter includes two mutually exclusive direct gender labels. It also seems silly to argue with Japanese culture and history as a precedent when we have all admitted insufficient knowledge on the subject (and no, Wikipedia alone is not a sufficient source of information :p). In addition, given the abundant historical precedents for women secretly taking part in military organizations restricted to men, it seems almost certain that there were "female samurai" at least once or twice.


Without wanting to interrupt your discussion, a thought that just occured to me: Couldn't the High Lords (or any other suitable official) write a decree that actually states that some men are to be considered (legally) women, thereby allowing said men (ehh, women now, sorry) to actually bear arms and fight for the ecclesiarchy? I mean, it would be pretty crazy (or totally nuts), but hell, history as well as 40k is full of crazy people and if the Emperor wills it...

In the Imperium the people in charge can decree whatever they want. That is certainly an interesting loophole to work around an essentially legal issue; the Ecclesiarchy's restriction against keeping any permanent "men under arms" since the Apostasy (the sisters themselves represent a similarly slippery way around this, like how the Lord of the Nazgul "would not be killed by hand of man," or Macbeth could not be killed by "any man of woman born"). I could actually see that working except for one other fact about Imperial structure; it abhors anything that shifts the internal balance of power. The other Adeptus would scream bloody murder if the Ministorum tried to pull something like that, they already barely tolerate the existing loophole, and would be none too keen to ratify anything that would unbalance the status quo.


If we address this whole question seriously, then we must say that there cannot be an equivalent male counterpart to the SoBs, but there might possibly be a small localized male religious order of similar doctrine and with similar tactics and equipment somewhere in the Imperium.


Okay, people... as an official warning: I realize that this thread is supposed to be humorous, but the personal attacks are starting up again and I'm getting a little tired of seeing a ton of complaint emails when I'm supposed to be writing a 30 page paper that's due by tomorrow morning. BE NICE, PEOPLE!

Ouch, I have been in that boat, good luck and I promise I at least will play nice :D.

Also, general LOLs at some really funny stuff in here...

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[crazyredpraetorian]

No it wouldn't. You wouldn't have "male sisters of battle", you'd have another organization which is similar to the Sisters of Battle but isn't a part of it. A wide variety of mutations and oddities dot the Astartes chapters, leading them to differ-- sometimes quite drastically-- from eachother. And yet despite all of this, they are all labeled Adeptus Astartes (or for the traitors, the overarching definition of Space Marines-- although I choose not to consider them because they have an entirely different standard). It is not too much of a stretch of the mind to think that a female Space Marine chapter could end up in the same situation as, say, the Black Dragons... distrusted but loyal to the Imperium, proving their loyalty and earning their freedom from the Inquisition's baleful eye.

The Sisters are, by comparison, a strikingly homogenous group. What little variation there is is purely ideological and military (different tactics, different prayers, etc), and all Sisters must be free of mutation and the taint of chaos, pure beyond a shadow of a doubt and pious (to the point of near-insanity, some would argue, but that's a matter of personal perspective). They are employed by the Ecclesiarchy, and that organization is not allowed to have an army of men at arms and it is only through using a loophole in that law that the Sisters exist.

One could play an army of the Frateris Templar to be similar to that of the Sororitas, but that is similar to playing an army of pre-heresy Death Guard-- there is nothing wrong with doing that, but you're playing in an entirely different era (~35-36,000, as opposed to 41,000), and an entirely different organization as well, even if they fulfil a similar purpose.

But, what about female sisters that just call themselves brothers, that is really a horse of many different colors? I've got the models all planned out, this is going to be EPIC!

[Marshal2Crusaders]

If you want to quote wikipedia, I can too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna_bugeisha
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_the_duties_of_the_female_samurai


And I can provide other links supporting my argument, no need to rely entirely on wikipedia, which is not acceptable as a scholastic reference (amusing fact, this very thread came up in the second page of my search)

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Culture_files/Nihon_to_files/Female_samurai.htm
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Onna-bugeisha


Yes, I'm stubborn, but your link proved nothing. As I said before, the concept of gender-specific terms is something that many Westerners-- particularly Americans whom quite frequently know only one language (and even barely that sometimes...), the type of person whom edits Wikipedia most frequently-- do not quite grasp. Samurai is one of them.

and you're multi-lingual I take it? :-P


The hypocrisy of this thread makes me laugh. I am going to make male sisters of battle because gw says it's my fluff to do whatever I want with.

[Faultie]

Keep in mind a few things...

The Sisters recruit from the Schola Progenium, which itself takes in orphans at a very young age.

The Schola Progenium continually and repeatedly checks its charges for corruption in numerous ways (gene-scans, purity tests, etc)

The Schola Progenium attempts to nudge biologically female charges towards the Sororitas and biologically male charges towards the other professions. This explains why most (but not all) Commissars and Stormtroopers are male, by the way.
Some also go into the Arbites (who also recruit from the Schola Progenium). They're equal opportunity employers (Imperial Decree CXIV-XX-dE).

[Denzark]

I don't see male sisters of battle, or if you prefer male adeptus sororitas (sp?) as any more possible than female adeptus astartes. Yes as before I agree there could be an equivalent, but never an actual male part of.

What makes me laugh at the semantics and pedantry is that Melly thinks that an Administratum ruling makes this a more solid fluff point that male AS can't exist, than the SCIENCE of the fluff (reference Zygotes screening for males) does for female AA not existing.

Why do you think everyone in 10000 years has blidnly obeyed the administratum but in tha time has found a science fix to male only zygotes?

The number of rebel governors, chapters etc, clearly shows that disobeying the adminstratum happens in the fluff. The number of cursed foundings, bile/mechanicus/adminstratum geneseed experiments have not conclusively proven that female marines have been created in the fluff.

Therefore some ecclesiarch wanting male AS is for me a more likely fluff possibility (it could be achieved) than the science of the fluff being overturned to create female AA - you can break laws, but not laws of science.

Melly you are already on record saying you sometimes argue for the sheer pleasure of the cut and thrust of the mass debate but you will have to do so much better than some guff about female or not samurai (again the American obssession with Japanese so called culture - the only country i know of that sells used school girl's underwear in vending machines).

Why is breaking the laws of science (to get female adeptus astartes) more likely than someone breaking the laws of the Empire? (to get male adeptus sororitas?)

BTW for the record I think both options would be a pointless gimmick.

[Fellend]

Melissa:

[QUOTE]It is not too much of a stretch of the mind to think that a female Space Marine chapter could end up in the same situation as, say, the Black Dragons... distrusted but loyal to the Imperium, proving their loyalty and earning their freedom from the Inquisition's baleful eye.

The Sisters are, by comparison, a strikingly homogenous group. What little variation there is is purely ideological and military (different tactics, different prayers, etc), and all Sisters must be free of mutation and the taint of chaos, pure beyond a shadow of a doubt and pious (to the point of near-insanity, some would argue, but that's a matter of personal perspective). They are employed by the Ecclesiarchy, and that organization is not allowed to have an army of men at arms and it is only through using a loophole in that law that the Sisters exist[\QUOTE]

It is not too much of a stretch of the mind to think that a Sisters of battle convent could end up in the same situation as, say, the Black Dragons... distrusted but loyal to the Imperium, proving their loyalty and earning their freedom from the High Lords of Terra's baleful eye.

The Space Marines are, by comparison, a strikingly homogenous group. What little variation there is is purely ideological and military (different tactics, different prayers, etc), and all Brothers must be free of mutation and the taint of chaos, pure beyond a shadow of a doubt and pious (to the point of near-insanity, some would argue, but that's a matter of personal perspective). They are employed by the Chapter, and that organization is not allowed to have an army of women and it is only through the divine will of the Emperor that the Brothers exist.

And on as someone pointed out. There's stop using linguistic reasons. All that stops the existance of Male Sisters of Battle is a law and that is all.

And as a Japanese Major I can tell you that Melissa has no idea what she is talking about. So find a better example than "female samurai"

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Fellend]

sad but true, Those machines are mostly removed now though. Tourists took offence

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[crazyredpraetorian]

But is it as messed up as a 6'3" transvestite stripper?

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Renegade]

I suppose using the SoB for a better equipt IG regiment would work, as the fluff states that some are from more advanced worlds than others and have access to better equipment. Or as a Governers personal body gaurd. I am still not sold on male SoB as being part of the SoB however.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Melissia]

the SCIENCE of the fluff

I am a student of the sciences. Biology and chemistry, to be exact.

From my point of view, given enough funding even modern scientists could overcome the boundry put forth for the Adeptus Astartes-- nevermind the insanely advanced Magos Biologi of the Adeptus Mechanicus, whom have such amazing technology as to be able to scan someone's genetic code in minutes (gene-scanners are not uncommon in stories that aren't Marine-centric, but then if you want information about the Imperium you wouldn't read Marine-centric stories anyway) if not less than that, or track a specific person across an entire world, not knowing where that person is in the world, based off of their genetic code alone, or design and create biologically constructed servitors (not all servitors are created from the bodies of criminals and hereteks). Such a change from male to female should really be trifling to them-- for that matter we have animals in the real world whom can do it naturally, nevermind with technology.

Applying real-world science to sci-fi, yes I know. But unless they say it is different, then we must assume it is the same. Are we also going to assume that bullets don't fly straight unless you whisper a prayer, too, or just smile and realize that such prayers are just cadences created to concentrate the mind of the soldier?

[crazyredpraetorian]

Only in Austin! lol

Actually, that was in Memphis.:D I got back to Texas as fast as I could.

[Melissia]

Right, Austin's transvesttite whores are much more respectable.

[Mananarepublic]

Right, Austin's transvesttite whores are much more respectable.

Wow! Just as I thought this thread couldn't get any lower than the female space marine one I was proven wrong....

Look - the end all fact: The 40k world is a piece of fiction and as such it can make up it's own rules. When it's creators just as easily could have made female marines they choose to create the sisters... Why? - I don't know! Was it right? - I guess, so since their success is pretty obvious. Do I think you contribute to a discussion by "word pooping" just for the sake of an argument? Nope...

Is this really any problem - last year I did a commission painting 12 different marines from 12 different chapters - and here is the shocker: They were all modeled as females! If someone REALLY wants to play male sisters there is nothing stopping them from doing so but their imagination!

Nuff said - staying clear now!

/M

[Melissia]

I don't think many people really care that strongly for the subject. We're just fanboys/girls who really like to argue.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Wow! Just as I thought this thread couldn't get any lower than the female space marine one I was proven wrong....

Look - the end all fact: The 40k world is a piece of fiction and as such it can make up it's own rules. When it's creators just as easily could have made female marines they choose to create the sisters... Why? - I don't know! Was it right? - I guess, so since their success is pretty obvious. Do I think you contribute to a discussion by "word pooping" just for the sake of an argument? Nope...

Is this really any problem - last year I did a commission painting 12 different marines from 12 different chapters - and here is the shocker: They were all modeled as females! If someone REALLY wants to play male sisters there is nothing stopping them from doing so but their imagination!

Nuff said - staying clear now!

/M

So you ate Dr Thunders mysterious painter :-P

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Mananarepublic]

So you ate Dr Thunders mysterious painter :-P

Resisting to capitalize on all references to eating myself I presume you mean "are" and not "ate"... in which case the answer is Yes :-)

/M

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Resisting to capitalize on all references to eating myself I presume you mean "are" and not "ate"... in which case the answer is Yes :-)

/M

It's my iPhone I swear.

[Fellend]

Melissa are you seriously arguing that it would be harder to break one single law than it would be to go against 10 000 years of tradition, religion, technology, alter the human genome and make a mockery out of your God whom you believe is the single thing holding together the entire universe and holding off the forces of Chaos by will alone.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Lerra]

Here we go again . . .

Who says the Emperor would be opposed to female space marines? There are no flying rhinos, but if they found a new STC for a flying rhino, you can bet that they would start making them without going "against 10 000 years of tradition, religion, technology." It's a technological hurdle, not a religious one.

[Nabterayl]

Melissa are you seriously arguing that it would be harder to break one single law than it would be to go against 10 000 years of tradition, religion, technology, alter the human genome and make a mockery out of your God whom you believe is the single thing holding together the entire universe and holding off the forces of Chaos by will alone.
So ... I don't own a copy of Index Astartes, but source some of this stuff for me. Ten thousand years of tradition, I'll grant you.

Religion? What's your source for claiming that the hodgepodge of religions followed by the collective marine chapters go against female marines?

Technology ... I've gotta go with Mel on the science here. I know that the Adeptus Mechanicus, as a whole, has a lot more capability than it actually uses. I know that the Adeptus Mechanicus does not presently have the technology to implant zygotes into women/girls. But it's always seemed to me like that inability is more because the AM hasn't ever really tried. I have a hard time swallowing an organization that can perform genetic research on tyranids, which aren't even from this galaxy, but doesn't have the capability to implant zygotes into girls.

Alter the human genome? What's your source for that? My understanding was that zygotes are keyed to male hormones, and turning the hormonal environment of a female into the hormonal environment of a male (or vice versa) is pretty straightforward. High maintenance, maybe, but space marines are already high maintenance.

Making a mockery out of your God? Whose god? What's your source for claiming that space marines venerate the Emperor as a god? And what's your source for claiming that female marines would make a mockery out of him in the eyes of the chapters you're thinking of?

[Gotthammer]

Melissa are you seriously arguing that it would be harder to break one single law than it would be to go against 10 000 years of tradition, religion, technology, alter the human genome and make a mockery out of your God whom you believe is the single thing holding together the entire universe and holding off the forces of Chaos by will alone.

That's not necessarily true as not all marines belive the Emp to be a god and are comparatively free thinking and pragmatic in their approach to things (some, not all by any means). But, all Sororitas and most of the High Lords do regard him as a god, though some will probably be privvy to the Imperial Truth from the crusade era (wether they believe it is another matter).
So in that regard the edict preventing male ecclesiarchical forces is less likely to be deliberately tampered with in my opinion. Not that it wouldn't happen, just that the people doing it would be more under the control / watch of those who do care - Space Bishop Joe having 10,000 heavily armed and equipped dudes guarding him, the Hereticus might notice. Emperor's Face Destroyers playing with their chemistry set in the basement of the fortress monastary (assuming anyone knows where it is), not as likely to be noticed.

Buuuuut, I already posted several ways to make a male sororitas force, both literally and counts as, so if well thought out and the background is internally consitant I'd still like to see it done.

[Mananarepublic]

It's my iPhone I swear.

No worries brother - "ate" was funnier anyway :-)

/M

[crazyredpraetorian]

i believe he's a stripper actually:d

bwhahahahahahahahaha!!!

[Duke]

It's my iPhone I swear.

LMAO! I don't know how many times my iPhone has done that to me!

One time I was trying to text my friend "I can't wait to see their dex and get my hands on some fexes," (talking about the Tyranids codex.)

It took that and turned it into "I can't wait to see thier sex and get my hands on some feces." We still laugh about it.

Duke

[Fellend]

So ... I don't own a copy of Index Astartes, but source some of this stuff for me. Ten thousand years of tradition, I'll grant you.

Religion? What's your source for claiming that the hodgepodge of religions followed by the collective marine chapters go against female marines?

Technology ... I've gotta go with Mel on the science here. I know that the Adeptus Mechanicus, as a whole, has a lot more capability than it actually uses. I know that the Adeptus Mechanicus does not presently have the technology to implant zygotes into women/girls. But it's always seemed to me like that inability is more because the AM hasn't ever really tried. I have a hard time swallowing an organization that can perform genetic research on tyranids, which aren't even from this galaxy, but doesn't have the capability to implant zygotes into girls.

Alter the human genome? What's your source for that? My understanding was that zygotes are keyed to male hormones, and turning the hormonal environment of a female into the hormonal environment of a male (or vice versa) is pretty straightforward. High maintenance, maybe, but space marines are already high maintenance.

Making a mockery out of your God? Whose god? What's your source for claiming that space marines venerate the Emperor as a god? And what's your source for claiming that female marines would make a mockery out of him in the eyes of the chapters you're thinking of?

Religion: Astartes "religion" We are made out of the seed of the Primarchs, Who was the sons of The Emperor. All chapters to my knowledge believe that. (the son part should not be taken literally)
Plus i've quoted before several mentionings of male or man in the BT codex and SM 5th ed.

Technology: Yes the AM posseses some very cool machines that can do very cool things. But what you are forgetting is that they can't really produce anything new. Most of these machine works because ancient rituals are actually simple maintence procedeurs.
So making a new zygot that would work for women might be next to impossible because doing so would be techheresy while using the sacred machines that you still have and have had since the days of the Emperor might be perfectly okay.
And still this is tech heresy and forbidden knowledge. Not to mention that tradition which in many cases overrules law says there can only be male space marines. 10 000 years of only male space marines in any case makes it hard to argue against.
And even IF someone decided to break the rule and invent this zygot who is to say that it wouldn't immidiantly be declared techheresy and destroyed along with any traces of how the process works?
All need to do is play DoW2 or read a single book to realise that why some technology they possess is far more advance than we can even think of. The knowledge of how to use it or reproduce it is slim to none.
"No antenna like this have been produced for a millenia. This is a blow the Imperium never truely recovers from" -Tech marine dude from DoW2

Alter the human genome? What's your source for that? My understanding was that zygotes are keyed to male hormones, and turning the hormonal environment of a female into the hormonal environment of a male (or vice versa) is pretty straightforward. High maintenance, maybe, but space marines are already high maintenance.
= See SM 5th ed. Where it clearly states that the natural process of male growth is needed for the process to work.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL of this against
"Hey, lets not do like the high lords of terra wants and train men as well. We need more soldiers."

[Nabterayl]

Religion: Astartes "religion" We are made out of the seed of the Primarchs, Who was the sons of The Emperor. All chapters to my knowledge believe that. (the son part should not be taken literally)
Plus i've quoted before several mentionings of male or man in the BT codex and SM 5th ed.
Yes, that's true. But as you say, the son part needn't be taken literally. I doubt that the various chapter cults even have dogma on whether or not women can become "sons of the Emperor," because it's never come up before.


Technology: Yes the AM posseses some very cool machines that can do very cool things. But what you are forgetting is that they can't really produce anything new.
That's the official AM party line, but as a factual matter it simply isn't true. The Predator Annihilator is a new design. After several centuries the Mechanicus declared that the Predator's extant STC blueprints had always included provisions for replacing the autocannon with twin-linked lascannons. The Land Speeder is new; all Land came out of the catacombs with was designs for anti-grav plates. The Immolator is also a new design; the STC data for the flame-tank from Fornost had to be combined with Rhino blueprints in order to produce a complete vehicle - but there's no evidence that the Fornosian flame tank actually was a Rhino-based vehicle. Hellfire rounds are also new, and specifically designed to combat tyranids, and to my knowledge no attempt has even been made to claim that the hellfire acid was used during the Dark Age of Technology.

The Adeptus Mechanicus invents new technology, combines bits and pieces of unrelated technology, and adapts old technology all the time. For religious reasons they insist that what they're actually doing is rediscovering old designs, but that is no more true from the audience's perspective than the idea that if you paint over your power armor's colors it will stop working in a fit of pique.

If a procedure to adapt zygotes to girls was invented by the Mechanicus, it would be cast as a "rediscovery" of a lost Dark Age procedure (to do otherwise would be to admit that the Dark Age did not contain the sum total of all possible knowledge). That presents a barrier, of course - a techpriest would have to have some reason to think that the Dark Age had such a procedure, or it would never occur to him to investigate it.

If the procedure came from a space marine chapter, that's another story. Space marines, on the whole, have shown themselves to be more inventive, on the whole, than the Mechanicus. If a space marine chapter had sufficient need to discover a procedure to adapt zygotes to girls, I have no doubt that they would have the technical expertise to do so. The Mechanicus would pitch a fit, and then after a couple centuries of furious finger-wagging and theological debate, they'd conclude that the chapter in question had just rediscovered a lost Dark Age procedure - just as happened with the Annihilator.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL of this against
"Hey, lets not do like the high lords of terra wants and train men as well. We need more soldiers."
Well, all of this against, "Hey, the Decree Passive was a key component of ending the greatest threat to the Imperium since the Horus Heresy."

I agree with you that there are technological and worldview problems with female marines that are not present with male Sororitas. However, the Decree Passive is not just some law. Giving the Ecclesiarchy more of an army than the Adepta Sororitas would be like giving the Imperial Guard starships - it strikes at the very balance of power in the Imperium. That's a problem with male Sororitas that isn't present with female marines, so I don't know that there's any call to say that the barriers to one are greater than the barriers to the other.

[Ole]

Hm, guess in the end it comes down to "Yes, you could have FSM/MSoB - BUT you would have to break some barriers. And nope, no one in the Imperium actually WANTS to break these barriers, so no one WILL break them."

[Nabterayl]

Hm, guess in the end it comes down to "Yes, you could have FSM/MSoB - BUT you would have to break some barriers. And nope, no one in the Imperium actually WANTS to break these barriers, so no one WILL break them."
In my personal opinion, you can judge the qualify of FSM/MSoB fan fluff in large part by how well it deals with those barriers. I look at it this way:

Modeling-wise, I'll play against any army you care to bring, no matter how modeled.
If you want my opinion on your fluff (not saying anybody should), FSM/MSoB fluff is better when it takes very seriously not only the difficulties in getting FSM/MSoB in the first place, but also the ramifications afterward with other organizations within the Imperium. In my opinion, the more your fluff is aware of the very serious obstacles involved, the better.

[Mananarepublic]

lmao! I don't know how many times my iphone has done that to me!

One time i was trying to text my friend "i can't wait to see their dex and get my hands on some fexes," (talking about the tyranids codex.)

it took that and turned it into "i can't wait to see thier sex and get my hands on some feces." we still laugh about it.

Duke

lol!! Total classic!!!!

/m

[Fellend]

In my personal opinion, you can judge the qualify of FSM/MSoB fan fluff in large part by how well it deals with those barriers. I look at it this way:

Modeling-wise, I'll play against any army you care to bring, no matter how modeled.
If you want my opinion on your fluff (not saying anybody should), FSM/MSoB fluff is better when it takes very seriously not only the difficulties in getting FSM/MSoB in the first place, but also the ramifications afterward with other organizations within the Imperium. In my opinion, the more your fluff is aware of the very serious obstacles involved, the better.


well said

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Why is FSM v AFSM more heated a debate than creationism v evolution or choice v life? Next thing you kn ow Gotthammer and Melissa will be pipe bombing GW stores all over the country while Rush comments on the audacity and stupidity of the AFSM crowd. I wonder what the next presedential/prime minister candiates/uk candidate equiv. stance on Female Space marines will be and if they support it being taught in schools to our children. I heard Pres. Obama was even going to address the UN about the importance of global cooperation in discovering a peaceful solution the the debate.

[Duke]

President Obama can't do that ight now becuase he is an alien invader from praxion prime... Don't believe me? Where does it say he isn't a world eating alien from praxion prime?

[Fellend]

Finally we know why his birth certificate is considered top secret.

[Melissia]

Why is FSM v AFSM more heated a debate than creationism v evolution or choice v life?

It's not. People have been killed over both of those discussions, and I am not joking.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Melissia]

I agree.

[Commissar Lewis]

This whole "female SM, male SoB" thing is getting ridiculous, innit?

Honestly, it's merely a game. Baffles me as to how or why people defend it so adamantly and vehemently.

[Duke]

Nobody cares about that apart from Americans.

You are a strange bunch.........

Yea and mincemeat pies make a ton of since, considering they have no meat.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Vorlon]

Hey not all Americans are insane....but far too many of us are =/

[Vorlon]

Americans:rolleyes::D

They are called Mince Pies, not Mincemeat pies. They are the most delicious of all the pies and you can call me Susan if it isnt so! lol

And Cherry Pie is clearly the God Emperor of all pies....Susan

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Commissar Lewis]

Them yachts are dangerous, yo.

Especially if they attack in a pack, watch out. They are worse than damn sharks.

[Denzark]

Right, you asked for it!

If you check your back copies of "Pie Fan Monthly" April 1976 ;):D

Hang on Mr A you know that if fluff isn't less than 5 days old you can't quote it! These pies are quite clearly both sexes, if not transgender (pre or post op) or even androgynous.

And the problem with yachts is that they are spelt like that and not 'yot' as it clearly should be.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Duke]

FYI I am actually eating a mincemeat pie as we speak (type)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[rbryce]

theyre called mince(meat) pies because when they were first made they were made with minced beef, suet, and spices, fruit etc.

Check out the house husband lol :)

[Duke]

Right but the ones I have here are a jelly like filling

[rbryce]

yeah, thatd be a comercial one... when we do it here its raisins dates, dried, fruit soaked in brandy, with beef suet and shortcrust pastry. rather nice. but thats how its developed, i think, if i remember it was the victorians who swapped the meat for for just sweet things. and even at that time, candied fruit, sweets etc were called "sweet-meats". dont know why, but there we go. of course, i could be wrong.;)

[therealjohnny5]

yeah, thatd be a comercial one... when we do it here its raisins dates, dried, fruit soaked in brandy, with beef suet and shortcrust pastry. rather nice. but thats how its developed, i think, if i remember it was the victorians who swapped the meat for for just sweet things. and even at that time, candied fruit, sweets etc were called "sweet-meats". dont know why, but there we go. of course, i could be wrong.;)

mmm that sounds pretty frakin tasty...see why don't we have those kind of goodies on this side of the pond...seriously....

[Sangre]

This thread has taken a sickening turn.

[Cryl]

This thread has taken a sickening turn.

I dunno... cake or Male Sisters of Battle. I vote cake... or pie or both

[Duke]

This thread has taken a sickening turn.

Sangre, you can't be suprised that a thread on this forum has taken a turn to not just go off topic, but turned into a topic of desserts... Don't you remember the "Read but fail to post thread?" lol (Probably one of the weirdest/ best threads ever)

Duke

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Nobody cares about that apart from Americans.

You are a strange bunch.........


It's the water. Or the horse growth hormone in our chicken.

[Faultie]

It's the water. Or the horse growth hormone in our chicken.

Why are you putting horse growth hormone in your chicken?
Trying to win the Kentucky (Fried) Derby?
Ba-zing!



...I'll get my coat.

[Sangre]

Sangre, you can't be suprised that a thread on this forum has taken a turn to not just go off topic, but turned into a topic of desserts... Don't you remember the "Read but fail to post thread?" lol (Probably one of the weirdest/ best threads ever)

Duke

You forget, whenever controversy dies down, I melt into the shadows.

[Renegade]

Why are you putting horse growth hormone in your chicken?
Trying to win the Kentucky (Fried) Derby?
Ba-zing!



...I'll get my coat.

I think thats why US meat is banned in the EU, cant tell what the hells in it. Still, it could be down to those Warhammer players trying to take over the world by order of some underground government movement.

Pies for the Pie god (cant believe I just typed that....:confused:

[Faultie]

I think thats why US meat is banned in the EU, cant tell what the hells in it. Still, it could be down to those Warhammer players trying to take over the world by order of some underground government movement.

Pies for the Pie god (cant believe I just typed that....:confused:
Just an FYI: "US meat" is banned in various EU countries for lots of reasons (not all meat, not in all countries), but it has nothing to do with growth hormones (which are illegal in the US, at least for poultry). It has a lot more to do with EU's CAP, US subsidies, and protectionism than anything, and the main barrier is not so much how its raised but how its processed (co2 vs. electrical stunning, chemicals/processes involved in processing, etc.)

But nevermind facts. Quick Charlie, set me up for another joke!

Pies for the Pie god (cant believe I just typed that....:confused:Pastries for the Pastry Throne!

[Cryl]

The Cake God sits on his Pastry throne overlooking his land of crust and custard, all around him tortelettes frolic in the lakes of icing and culis. It is not the lesser Tortelettes that are most feared but the greater daemons of cake, the Gateaux daemons, great multi-tiered monstrosities who tower above mortals dripping with cholestrol and sugary death.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[rbryce]

aldramech, i dont think you meant to DEIFY his cake? or are you a traitor? hmmm, the ordo hereticus will be keeping an eye on you ;)

[Gotthammer]

Ia! Ia! Cakethulhu Fthagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nfah Cakethulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[therealjohnny5]

If thats Klingon I am going to have to kill you..........

Ald...careful, he's from Australia...nobody but dangerous criminal types and thugs down there...he may bash you on the head and take your pie! See no one would expect Australia...just hanging out there all seemingly innocent and forgotten except for the film industry, then WAMMY! they strike with their vegimite and other horrid jelly like treats while they horde all the good caky goodness to themselves...

[Faultie]

Ia! Ia! Cakethulhu Fthagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nfah Cakethulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!


If thats Klingon I am going to have to kill you..........

Well, I got the Lovecakian reference, anyway.

[Gotthammer]

No it's from The Call of Cthulhu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Call_of_Cthulhu). And you call yourself a nerd ;)

Quote from a Canadian on Vegemite: "It's what hate would taste like."

Philistines :p

[Cryl]

Well, I got the Lovecakian reference, anyway.

Cakethulu is why this thread is now a contender for best thread ever... so far

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Lord Azaghul]

Any takers?:D

You know, I'll bet that would lead to more men playing this game! :p

[Gotthammer]

Forgot your love of all things Lovecraft...........

That was a knee jerk reaction on my part, I shall not suffer the Trekies to live!

Yeah, we're nerds, but they're geeks. I mean Star Trek... where're all the skulls!


As for Austrailians, Who do you think put them there in the first place? That makes us "******* Hard".;)

Or your puny country could no longer contain our awesomeness :D

[Jwolf]

Aussies got a free trip when they got kicked out; Americans just got booted.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Cryl]

Anybody who gets their panties in a bunch over some Tea does not deserve to be a part of the Empire!:p

I'm going to Boston in March... apparently when you're doing the tourist 'Freedom Trail' admiting you're a Brit isn't the best plan :)

[Lord Azaghul]

Anybody who gets their panties in a bunch over some Tea does not deserve to be a part of the Empire!:p

Well then don't oppress us! We've got our own government for that now!:D

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[BuFFo]

Random Comment that is off topic.