Astra Militarum 1850pt competitive list- need critique

[Morgue]

Hi all,

So I finally received my codex this week after a long wait. I have put together what to me seems like a relatively competitive balanced army. But again, this is the first list that I have put together, so critique is what I need right now:

HQ
Company Command Squad 85pts
1x Company Commander, 4x Veterans, Master of Ordnance, Vox Caster

Knight Commander Pask 505pts
Pask's Vanquisher w/ Hull Lascannon
Leman Russ Vanquisher x2 w/ Hull Lascannon

Troop
Platoon Command Squad 35pts
Vox Caster
Infantry Squad 55pts
Vox Caster
Infantry Squad 55pts
Vox Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad 120pts
3x Missile Launcher (Krak, Frag & Flak)
Heavy Weapons Squad 105pts
3x Lascannon

Veteran Squad 105pts
x3 Plasma Gun

Fast Attack
Armoured Sentinel Squad 135pts
3x Plasma Cannons

Armoured Sentinel Squad 135pts
3x Plasma Cannons

Heavy
Wyvern Battery 130pts
2x Wyvern

Leman Russ Squadron 280pts
2x LR Punisher

Fortification
Aegis Defense line with quad gun 100pts

I know it is a bit short on anti-flyer, but overall it looks to me like it balances anti tank and anti infantry quite well. Not sold on the LR Punishers, but again, let me know

[Gleipnir]

Well one thing I will mention is take advantage of the new rules for Pask as a Tank Commander in a Vehicle Squadron w. the option of Split Fire, you can simply always position the other 2 tanks closest to the enemy to help ensure Pask is the last Tank standing, I would probably put Pask in one of your Punishers instead of a Vanquisher, for the Rending attacks, plus with 20 shots he can offer his own threat to flyers if you so choose, at 20 shots with 6's to hit you still average 3 hits and then get to reroll armor penetration rolls where any 6 you roll you can add an additional d3 to your Armor Penetration, and at BS 5 he will mow down infantry models.

[Morgue]

In that case would you suggest increasing the number of punishers and reducing the number of vanquishers? Or keep it as is?

[Gleipnir]

Id probably go with more Vanquishers, Demonlishers or battle cannons and just use Pask in the one punisher, between him and the Wyverns and flashlights you are pretty well set for anti infantry

[Katharon]

I would drop either one of the Heavy Support punishers or the Wyvern for a few extra Veteran Squads. You're pretty low on troop choices. Otherwise not bad. I'd also make sure to have Pask as your Warlord, as his warlord trait gives his unit the Preferred Enemy special rule against the codex of your choosing.

[Morgue]

Alright so I have taken all the advice given and here is the slightly rejigged list:

HQ
Company Command Squad 85
1x Company Commander, 4x Veterans, Master of Ordnance, Vox Caster

Knight Commander Pask 525
Pask's Vanquisher w/ Lascannon
Leman Russ Executioner x2

Primaris Psyker Squad 100
Primaris Psyker x2

Troop
Platoon Command Squad 35
Vox Caster
Infantry Squad 55
Vox Caster
Infantry Squad 55
Vox Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad 120
3x Missile Launcher (Krak, Frag & Flak)
Heavy Weapons Squad 105
3x Lascannon

Veteran Squad 90
3x Meltagun

Veteran Squad 105
x3 Plasma Gun

Fast Attack
Armoured Sentinel Squad 100
2x Plasma Cannons

Armoured Sentinel Squad 100
2x Plasma Cannons

Heavy
Wyvern Battery 130
2x Wyvern

Leman Russ Squadron 140
1x LR Punisher

Fortification
Aegis Defense line with quad gun 100

Ok, so here is my thoughts on how it plays:
- Pask and his crew move forward slowly to get rid of infantry/weak tanks while pask split fires and knocks off a big tank (hopefully) each turn.
- The punisher seeks out easy targets and soaks them with 20 S5 shots. A veteran squad (w/plasma) will follow close behind with a primaris psyker who will grant it prescience and then the plasma squad will mop up the last units (if close enough)
- The platoon command squad will sit behind the aegis wall and the sergeant will operate the quad gun with another primaris psyker giving him prescience
- The company command squad will blob with the guard infantry squads while maintaining ordnance fire and dishing out orders where necessary
- The heavy weapons team will individually focus fire on anything that they are good at (ie tanks or flyers depending on which team)
- The sentinals will cause a distraction will whittle down enemy squads with plasma pie plates to be mopped up by the wyverns
- Wyverns will pretty much do what they do best. Drop pie plates.

I'm pretty happy with this list now. Though again, fire away with where it could go afoul

[Mad Cat]

HQ: If Pask is the warlord (and he usually should be) take relic plating for his tank. You only need one vehicle to have it for the others to benefit and you can always use up the spare 2 points on bolters for vet sargeants. I would add plasma sponsons and stubbers to both executioners. Casting prescience on them will allow you to reroll gets hot results.
CCS is ok but I have hadly ever hit anything with master or ordnance, a standard may be better to keep the chaps happy. Heavy weapon squads can run away easily after only one S6 hit.

Troops: If you blob then you can drop one vox from a squad. If you don't blob then drop all voxes. I would absorb the lascannon into the squads or buy autocannon for them. Flak misile squad will probably be shot before any aircraft arrive and they are expensive. This is where I would save points for upgrades elsewhere. The vets need carapace if they are to advance in the open or consider chimeras.

Fast: ok. Could drop one unit (and the flak missile squad) and use a vendetta to provide aircover and some nasty tank busting.

Heavy: Wyverns are great. Punnisher needs HB sponsons and a stubber. It's a heavy tank so you might as well benefit by moving and firing the lot.

[Katharon]

I also forgot to add: drop the plasma cannon on the Armored Sentinels. Sentinels are fragile enough as it is and the best weapon for them is the missile launcher. It gives them enough range to stay out of most dangerous stuff and has two different attack profiles (krak & frag) that allows for more versatility.


Troops: If you blob then you can drop one vox from a squad. If you don't blob then drop all voxes. I would absorb the lascannon into the squads or buy autocannon for them. Flak misile squad will probably be shot before any aircraft arrive and they are expensive. This is where I would save points for upgrades elsewhere. The vets need carapace if they are to advance in the open or consider chimeras.


Vox Casters are OK if you feel that your dice rolls are consistently sucky enough to warrant them. It's a small enough upgrade that it's not a point sink in any real way.

In opposition to what Madcat says here, I believe you should never put heavy weapons inside of normal Infantry Squads. Your Infantry Squads will have other jobs to do other than baby-sitting a gun that may not move & fire normally.

Flakk missiles are a good investment for people that either don't like flyers, can't afford to buy (IRL) a flyer, or just want extra anti-air firepower.

If you're going to give your Veterans any doctrines (and I highly advise you to give them one) then always take Forward Sentries. The defensive grenades are a huge buff and while carapace gives you a nice 4+ armor save, a camo cloak can give you a 3+ cover save whilst sitting in ruins and a 2+ inside some fortifications.

[Gleipnir]

Still going to disagree on the Heavy Weapons in Infantry Squads, there are many good reasons to do so, and with the new orders one less negative.

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons are less vulnerable to being targeted and can be blobbed with other squads.

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons cost less points per model than selected as a part of a Heavy Weapons Squad

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons can have a higher base leadership and access to Vox casters.

The ability to Split Fire with Orders reducing the negative impact of combining anti tank weapons into a predominantly anti infantry unit.

Heavy Weapon Teams have a Lasgun to use while moving if they desire, they are not strictly forced to Snap Shot their Heavy weapon.

[This Dave]

Still going to disagree on the Heavy Weapons in Infantry Squads, there are many good reasons to do so, and with the new orders one less negative.

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons are less vulnerable to being targeted and can be blobbed with other squads.

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons cost less points per model than selected as a part of a Heavy Weapons Squad

In an Infantry Squad the heavy weapons can have a higher base leadership and access to Vox casters.

The ability to Split Fire with Orders reducing the negative impact of combining anti tank weapons into a predominantly anti infantry unit.

Heavy Weapon Teams have a Lasgun to use while moving if they desire, they are not strictly forced to Snap Shot their Heavy weapon.

I'll throw my agreement with Gleipnir about Heavy Weapons. I understand Katheron's point and agree it isn't an optimal use of them but especially with these new orders it's quite useful.

I myself prefer to put Heavy Bolters in squads simply because of the rate of fire. Even if you snap shoot with it you have the exact same 11% chance to kill a Marine as if a Marine shot him with a Bolter for example. Also, you're not tempted to have the entire unit shoot at a medium or heavy armor vehicle without any heavier weapons.

The really nice thing for putting Heavy Weapons in squads now is the "Take Aim" order. As every shot the unit makes is now a Precision Shot a full blob unit can be nasty. Make sure the Heavy Weapon shots hit the uber-assaulty character or the guy with the Flamer since you get to assign ALL the wounds you do.

And even if it's not a big combined squad the order that gives Split Fire is nice as then the Heavy Weapon can shoot a tank while the guys shine their flashlights as something else.

[Harley]

Foot shlogging naked Veterans with Plasma guns? They are as good as dead. If you must leave them on foot, they need Forward Sentries for Camo Cloaks so they can hide in ruins, bushes etc. At this point they are better off with and assortment of Sniper rifles, Auto cannons and/or a Lascannons.

Remember, Plasma guns need to be within 12" to maximize effectiveness. How are you going to get them that close on foot? You can't just expect your enemy to always come walking right up to you. A better Plasma load out is simply:
Vets, 2 Plasma Guns, Chimera - 155

You need to ask yourself, how are you going to capture objectives instead of just passively sitting on your own. You need a plan for this. Consider dropping a Sentinel squad and putting those Vets in a Valkyrie. With those 3 Plasma guns they can drop down from the Valk, rapid fire with Plasma and annihilate a camping enemy troop while stealing the objective. Even better, put a Primaris Psyker with them and roll on the Divination table to possible give the Valk/Vets a 4++ invulnerable or trade in your power for Prescience to twinlink the Veterans.

[karandras]

"The company command squad will blob with the guard infantry squads while maintaining ordnance fire and dishing out orders where necessary"

Unless I am misreading this, you cannot do this.

Plasma Cannons on Sentinels are a bad idea due to the inherant risk of gets hot. I run mine cheap with either Multilasers or Autocannons. They are a distraction unit and nothing more.

I completely agree with the feedback in regards to mobile troops. I think 2 units in Chimeras are kind of a prerequisite in any list due to objectives.

Good Luck!

[John Bower]

Yeah, I may not be a competitive player but those plasma guns/cannons will put you in a world of hurt, unless you take psykers. You're wanting to go tourney play so psykers all the way. Maybe lose the company command squad to free up the points for them. That way the extra twin linking you can get on the plasmas will stop them killing you. And as said, the vets need a transport desperately, I'd likely go with meltas or similar on them rather than plasma, perhaps put them in a Valkyrie so they can drop out right next to an enemy tank on turn 1 using the 'grav chute insertion' rule and get that vital First blood, just keep them cheap and cheerful for when the return fire extinquishes them.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'll put in my 2 cents here. Wyverns are amazing, I would up the squadron to 3 and reduce the Sentinels somehow. Just gotta bubble wrap them with bodies and walls to prevent melta guns from getting in range, including the 9" Tau meltas. And if one of your psykers gets Forewarning, maybe stick that one back with the body blob and cast it on the Wyverns, or maybe the dudes, depending on what your enemy has in store for you.

I agree, Vets need Chimeras, they just do. Unless you have Cypher or some other way of Infiltration/Outflanking, which unfortunately Harker no longer does (darn it!).

I really really recommend taking a Punisher or Executioner on Pask's tank. The rending Punisher with rerolling To Hit is just awesome with 20 shots, and that makes it viable anti-flyer as well. The Executioner on any other tank has a 25% chance of causing at least 1 glancing hit on itself with Gets Hot. Add plasma sponsons to it and that's even worse. Pask's Executioner gets the single large blast which is better for less hotness, and the Blind rule, which can pay off in the next player turn of course.

If you can deepstrike Sentinels or just keep them in Reserves with 48" range, that's the best way to use them probably. The chicken-walkers are always cool on the table :)

Heavy weapons in Infantry squads actually can be very good ideas. I think there's an Order now that they immediately make a shooting attack and then Run, isn't there? If so, they wouldn't have to move, then they could shoot (and with a Prescient Psyker, they'd be twin-linked) and still move D6". Not bad at all. I would almost prefer special weapons squads to heavy weapon squads and stick them in Valkyries or Chimeras.

Lastly, the Company Command Squad isn't bad, but I like them cheap as possible, though maybe with an Officer of the Fleet if you have things in Reserves a bunch. Good in a Chimera because of the Command Vehicle rule.

Master of Ordnance doesn't seem all that great, never hits anything for me. But indiscriminate bombardments are a....BLAST!

[Katharon]

Don't give the Veterans Chimeras. They've lowered the number of models that can shoot out the top hatch -- now only two models can fire, instead of five like in the old codex. That means that Veterans can no longer use the Chimera to the same effect as they use to (mobile bunker). Best option is just to give Veterans their armor and camo cloaks.

Master of Ordnance, Krungharr, is a 20-point Basilisk...I mean, come on.

[Harley]

Katharon, I agree but how do you propose a better way to get scoring units across the table? Valkyries are fine but they are also much more expensive. Chimeras took a hit but are still viable as they don't need to be a mobile gun boat, they are essentially 65 points to move your Vets 12-18" in one round and have mobile cover, nothing more.

[Katharon]

Katharon, I agree but how do you propose a better way to get scoring units across the table? Valkyries are fine but they are also much more expensive. Chimeras took a hit but are still viable as they don't need to be a mobile gun boat, they are essentially 65 points to move your Vets 12-18" in one round and have mobile cover, nothing more.

Crazy as it sounds, I walk mine. I always give them 2 or 3 Doctrines (but always cloaks) and have them advance across the table from cover to cover -- just like real infantry would. Usually I have so many other targets, some of which are more dangerous, that the enemy ignores my Veteran squads for the first couple (or if I'm lucky, three) of turns. There are not as many weapons that Ignore Cover as there tend to be thought of so it's never been an issue for me. I'd rather spend that 65 points towards either another Heavy Weapon Squad or getting better upgrades for my Leman Russ squadrons.

[Harley]

Good point. Food for thought, Marker lights can't hit your Vets if they are within a Voidshield, and thus won't be able to ignore their cover! May give it a try.

[Katharon]

Good point. Food for thought, Marker lights can't hit your Vets if they are within a Voidshield, and thus won't be able to ignore their cover! May give it a try.

You can also take cover saves from Marker Lights. They're still a shooting attack, even if they don't cause damage.

[Aegwymourn]

You can also take cover saves from Marker Lights. They're still a shooting attack, even if they don't cause damage.


You don't get saves of any kind against Markerlights.

[Katharon]

You don't get saves of any kind against Markerlights.

It's a type of shooting attack that causes no damage. Under the rules, that's qualifies as getting a cover save.

[Aegwymourn]

It's a type of shooting attack that causes no damage. Under the rules, that's qualifies as getting a cover save.



Actually it doesn't if you read the rules for markerlights it is very specific how they generate tokens "Instead, each time a unit suffers a hit with this special rule, place a markerlight counter next to it (no saves can be taken against these hits)" pg 68. I don't see how that could be any less clear. GW actually learned from their previous version of Markerlights and there are almost not rules quibbles about them this time.

[Katharon]

Actually it doesn't if you read the rules for markerlights it is very specific how they generate tokens "Instead, each time a unit suffers a hit with this special rule, place a markerlight counter next to it (no saves can be taken against these hits)" pg 68. I don't see how that could be any less clear. GW actually learned from their previous version of Markerlights and there are almost not rules quibbles about them this time.

I stand corrected then.

[Aegwymourn]

No worries. :)

It just gets misunderstood a lot since if you don't have a copy of the Tau codex you'd never know. And the markerlight section is like half a page, so reading it during a game from an opponents book can be rough.