Ordering a Paradox

[Turner]

What happens when I order a squad of guardsmen to 'Take Aim!' or 'Smite at Will!' or 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' or basically any of the Astra Militarum orders that specifically state, "The ordered unit must make a shooting attack." but no enemy units are visible?

The main rule book, on page 12, tells us "to target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight (see page 8) to at least one model in the target unit. If no models have line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.

[MajorWesJanson]

the shooting attack fails, and you move on.

[Crydon Games]

Why would you give such an order to a unit that has no target?

[jd2x.pacman]

Because there could be invisible Tau Stealth suits in that field soldier! And the resources of the imperium are such that wasting the ammo from first rank second rank are inconsequential?

[Turner]

the shooting attack fails, and you move on.


I thought the same, but when I check the BRB that didn't seem to be an option. The step you are thinking of is where you would check to see if the weapons are in range. If none of the models are in range then the shooting attack does indeed fail, like you suggested.





Why would you give such an order to a unit that has no target?



Seems irrelevant for answering the question but say I devote two units to destroy one of my opponents units. The first unit is incredible lucky and completely wipes out my opponents unit. The second unit which was ordered to 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' now has no target.

[Wildcard]

Isn't it so that with the new "you can always measure" rules it would in the end come to that the order is invalid?

Ofcourse why it would be so, depends on the scenario that the OP does not describe.

- If it was that the enemy was just out of range (for the lack of measuring or at the time of shooting there would be an argument if the unit taking fire was indeed out of the range and as a result of 4+ deciding roll, it indeed was out of range), then the shooting action is not allowed in the first place (and i would go as far saying that the unit was not eligible for that type of order).
- If it was for some other case then it would need to be more specified.

[Nabterayl]

Seems irrelevant for answering the question but say I devote two units to destroy one of my opponents units. The first unit is incredible lucky and completely wipes out my opponents unit. The second unit which was ordered to 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' now has no target.
Can't do that. Each order is resolved before you are allowed to issue another order.

[Turner]

Can't do that. Each order is resolved before you are allowed to issue another order.



I'm not sure where it says that, could you reference where you found that?

[Crydon Games]

The question had nothing to do with range. The question specifically stated that no enemy unit is visible. So again I ask, why would you issue a shooting order to a unit that can see no enemy? Is there some advantage that I am not aware of to issuing a nonsense order?

[Charistoph]

Seems irrelevant for answering the question but say I devote two units to destroy one of my opponents units. The first unit is incredible lucky and completely wipes out my opponents unit. The second unit which was ordered to 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' now has no target.


Can't do that. Each order is resolved before you are allowed to issue another order.

Also, don't you have to resolve each Shooting Attack before you can target another as well? Sounds like you're a bad strategist, not that it is a bad rule.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure where it says that, could you reference where you found that?
I don't have those books handy at work, but if memory serves it's the part of Voice of Command the deals with having multiple officers or a single officer with the ability to issue multiple orders.

[John Bower]

I don't have those books handy at work, but if memory serves it's the part of Voice of Command the deals with having multiple officers or a single officer with the ability to issue multiple orders.

I can't find any reference in the new Codex to doing it that way, now they are just issued at the start of the shooting phase, I guess that's why we have the cards, to remember which unit was given which order....

[Turner]

Oh I see, it appears many of you are confusing Imperial Guard's orders with the Astra Militarum's Voice of Command.

The Imperial Guard orders specifically states:
Orders Received, Sir!
If the test is passed, the officer's men leap to obey without hesitation - the squad immediately carries out the order and may not act further during the Shooting phase. Once the order has been completed, the officer can attempt to issue another order (if he is eligible to do so). When the officer has finished issuing orders, he and his Command Squad can shoot/run normally if the player wishes.


Vs


Astra Militarum's Voice of Command specifically states:
Voice Of Command
A model with this special rule is known as an officer. An officer can issue one order each turn. Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. If you have more than one officer, or if you have an officer that has a special rule allowing it to issue more than one order a turn, issue and resolve each order one at a time.

Issuing An Order
To issue an order, declear the order your officer is attempting to issue and select a single friendly non-vehicle unit from Codex: Astra Militarum that is within 12" of the officer - this can be the officer's own unit if you wish. We call this unit the 'ordered unit'. The ordered unit must ten take a Leadership test to see if the order has been understood and acted upon. If the test is passed, the order takes effect as specified in its description.


An example of an IG order is: "Fire on my Target! If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy unit visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target. Successful cover saves taken against this shooting attack must be re-roll."

Compared to

An example of an AM order is: "Fire on my Target! 'Fire on my Target!' can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all weapons in the ordered unit have the Ignores Cover special rule.



Many of you are thinking that the Astra Militarum orders play exactly the same as the Imperial Guard orders; This is not the case. The Imperial Guard orders, when issued, are carried out immediately while the Astra Militarum orders are essentially issued first then you being the rest of your shooting phase.

Imperial Guard Orders
'Bring it Down!' The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.
'Fire on my Target!' The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target.
'Get Back in the Fight!' If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back...
'First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately shoots at any visible target.
'Incoming!' If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately goes to ground.
'Move! Move! Move!' If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately runs,


Astra Miltarum Orders
'Take Aim!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Smite at Will!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Forwards, for the Emperor!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Move Move Move!' The ordered unit must Run.
'Suppressive Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Bring it Down!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Fire on My Target!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move.


The only order in the Astra Militarum book that immediately resolves in the 'Get Back In The Fight! order. The rest, when issued, only state that the ordered unit must make a shooting attack. If that unit, or any other unit, beings to resolve a shooting attack before the rest of the orders have been resolved, then you are forfeiting the rest of your orders.

This will be the Achilles's Heel of the Astra Militarum, similarly to Achille's Hell of the Imperial Guard; All those would would resolve some shooting attacks before issuing orders. (Say, fire a Storm Eagle Rocket from a Manticore to destroy a Landraider the issuing 'First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!' to a 50man blob squad to shoot at the now disembarked terminators)

[Nabterayl]

I disagree that an order that requires the ordered unit to make a shooting attack can be considered resolved before that shooting attack has been resolved.

[Turner]

It seems pretty clear, between the 5th edition style of issuing orders and 6th edition style of issuing orders.

5th edition the ordered unit immediately shoots (or whatever the order states, whether it is shoots or runs) where as 6th edition the ordered unit must make a shooting attack. Again, if you make said shooting attack or run before issuing the rest of your orders, according to the rules, you will be past the point of issuing further orders that turn. (since all of the orders are issued at the beginning of your shooting phase.) Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. The only order that is resolved immediately is the 'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move.

[MajorWesJanson]

It seems pretty clear, between the 5th edition style of issuing orders and 6th edition style of issuing orders.

5th edition the ordered unit immediately shoots (or whatever the order states, whether it is shoots or runs) where as 6th edition the ordered unit must make a shooting attack. Again, if you make said shooting attack or run before issuing the rest of your orders, according to the rules, you will be past the point of issuing further orders that turn. (since all of the orders are issued at the beginning of your shooting phase.) Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. The only order that is resolved immediately is the 'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move.

Except the shooting attack or movement by the unit is not a separate action, but part of the resolution of the order they were issued. You issue an order. The order says to make an attack. You make the attack, and then the order is resolved, and you move to the next order.

[Turner]

Except the shooting attack or movement by the unit is not a separate action, but part of the resolution of the order they were issued. You issue an order. The order says to make an attack. You make the attack, and then the order is resolved, and you move to the next order.


Incorrect. The order does resolve but again, the only order that resolves immediately is the 'Get Back In The Fight' order, which states, "'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move."


Everything else states that they must do X. (Whether it is make a shooting attack, make a run action, make a shooting attack then run, make a shooting attack that has the ignore cover USR, make a shooting attack with the split fire USR)

[AirHorse]

Astra Militarum's Voice of Command specifically states:
Voice Of Command
A model with this special rule is known as an officer. An officer can issue one order each turn. Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. If you have more than one officer, or if you have an officer that has a special rule allowing it to issue more than one order a turn, issue and resolve each order one at a time.


From your own quote, it clearly states that you resolve each order one at a time. They haven't written it into the individual orders because there is no need with the instructions for Voice of Command telling you to resolve them each one at a time.

[John Bower]

Yeah, didn't notice that; it does make sense but it does also state "as in the order description" and only 1 order says 'immediately'; It's poor wording, as with in the last dex where technically once that order has been given to shoot, no more orders can be given RAW; because you must issue orders before any shooting; conundrum right there.
And before you say it I know it's not RAI, but technically is RAW; shooting phase = orders, shoot/run. So you give FRFSRF to a unit, they shoot; now you've fired which RAW means you can't give anymore orders because you've started shooting. :)

I would still lean to giving the orders, accepting the orders (resolved) then once all orders are issued you begin the remainder of the shooting phase; starting with those units that have orders placed next to them.

[Turner]

From your own quote, it clearly states that you resolve each order one at a time. They haven't written it into the individual orders because there is no need with the instructions for Voice of Command telling you to resolve them each one at a time.



That is correct. You do resolve each order one at a time. However, again, you are incorrect in stating that "They haven't written it into the individual orders because there is no need with the instructions for Voice of Command telling you to resolve them each one at a time."

Again, I will quote what I have already written before, which is a direct quote from the Astra Militarum book.




Astra Miltarum Orders
'Take Aim!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Smite at Will!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Forwards, for the Emperor!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Move Move Move!' The ordered unit must Run.
'Suppressive Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Bring it Down!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Fire on My Target!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move.



Again, the only order that is resolved immediately is 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. The rest only specify that the ordered unit must do a thing. Whether it is make a shooting attack with the addition of a USR, make shooting attack then run or make a run move. The ordered unit must do a thing. None of the other orders specify that they are done immediately, minus the 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. Again, if that unit, or any other unit, beings to resolve a shooting attack before the rest of the orders have been resolved, then you are moving on past the beginning of your shooting phase and thus forfeiting the rest of your orders.



Could we please get back on topic and answer the question.

[Katharon]

Seems irrelevant for answering the question but say I devote two units to destroy one of my opponents units. The first unit is incredible lucky and completely wipes out my opponents unit. The second unit which was ordered to 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' now has no target.

You'd be incorrect in how you operate here. Once an order is given, that unit must immediately carry out that order before any further orders are given. You are not able to give multiple orders at the same time.

[Tynskel]

That is correct. You do resolve each order one at a time. However, again, you are incorrect in stating that "They haven't written it into the individual orders because there is no need with the instructions for Voice of Command telling you to resolve them each one at a time."

Again, I will quote what I have already written before, which is a direct quote from the Astra Militarum book.





Again, the only order that is resolved immediately is 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. The rest only specify that the ordered unit must do a thing. Whether it is make a shooting attack with the addition of a USR, make shooting attack then run or make a run move. The ordered unit must do a thing. None of the other orders specify that they are done immediately, minus the 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. Again, if that unit, or any other unit, beings to resolve a shooting attack before the rest of the orders have been resolved, then you are moving on past the beginning of your shooting phase and thus forfeiting the rest of your orders.



Could we please get back on topic and answer the question.

You must resolve the orders before going onto the next order.
The immediately on the 'get back in the fight' is due to being a non-shooting phase action (aka movement phase action). If it didn't say 'immediate', the action could be construed as 'on your next movement phase...'.

[Charistoph]

Again, the only order that is resolved immediately is 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. The rest only specify that the ordered unit must do a thing. Whether it is make a shooting attack with the addition of a USR, make shooting attack then run or make a run move. The ordered unit must do a thing. None of the other orders specify that they are done immediately, minus the 'Get Back In The Fight!' order. Again, if that unit, or any other unit, beings to resolve a shooting attack before the rest of the orders have been resolved, then you are moving on past the beginning of your shooting phase and thus forfeiting the rest of your orders.

Well, if you can't do another order until you resolve it, then I guess that answers at least part of your question.


What happens when I order a squad of guardsmen to 'Take Aim!' or 'Smite at Will!' or 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' or basically any of the Astra Militarum orders that specifically state, "The ordered unit must make a shooting attack." but no enemy units are visible?


Seems irrelevant for answering the question but say I devote two units to destroy one of my opponents units. The first unit is incredible lucky and completely wipes out my opponents unit. The second unit which was ordered to 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' now has no target.

Anything else really is just bad strategy and Order use. It's kind of like having a Baledrake Jink.

[Turner]

You'd be incorrect in how you operate here. Once an order is given, that unit must immediately carry out that order before any further orders are given. You are not able to give multiple orders at the same time.

Again, incorrect. Please reference where it says immediately.





You must resolve the orders before going onto the next order.
The immediately on the 'get back in the fight' is due to being a non-shooting phase action (aka movement phase action). If it didn't say 'immediate', the action could be construed as 'on your next movement phase...'.

Close, we're on the right track here. However what about the 'Move! Move! Move!' order? That is a non-shooting phase action? Also, movement phase action? 'Get back in the fight' is an order like any other which can only be issued at the beginning of the shooting phase.


If it didn't say 'immediate', the action could be construed as 'on your next movement phase...'.

I do appreciate that logic, it makes perfect sense to me. Which is why I am bringing up my original question. None of the other orders specify that they happen immediately the only specify that the ordered unit must make a shooting attack or the ordered unit must run or whatever else the order states. They aren't ordered to immediately shoot, only that they must make a shooting attack.

Again, my original question is: If I ordered two units to 'First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!' and the first unit completely destroys the enemy unit and my second unit doesn't have LOS to any other enemy unit, what happens?

[Tynskel]

Again, incorrect. Please reference where it says immediately.




Close, we're on the right track here. However what about the 'Move! Move! Move!' order? That is a non-shooting phase action? Also, movement phase action? 'Get back in the fight' is an order like any other which can only be issued at the beginning of the shooting phase.



I do appreciate that logic, it makes perfect sense to me. Which is why I am bringing up my original question. None of the other orders specify that they happen immediately the only specify that the ordered unit must make a shooting attack or the ordered unit must run or whatever else the order states. They aren't ordered to immediately shoot, only that they must make a shooting attack.

Again, my original question is: If I ordered two units to 'First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!' and the first unit completely destroys the enemy unit and my second unit doesn't have LOS to any other enemy unit, what happens?

If I recall correctly, all of the orders except the 'Get Back into the Fight', are actions that may be accomplished in the Shooting Phase. Move Move Move, if I remember, is a 'Run' action, which is done in the Shooting Phase. Hence, no need to add the qualifier 'immediate'.

[Nabterayl]

I still disagree that an order that requires the ordered unit to make a shooting is considered "resolved" simply because the obligation to make a shooting attack later in the phase has been laid. If the order says that the ordered unit must do X, the order isn't resolved until X has actually happened. I understand your point about "must immediately" vs. "must," but I think it fails to account for the natural meaning of "resolved."

[Tynskel]

I still disagree that an order that requires the ordered unit to make a shooting is considered "resolved" simply because the obligation to make a shooting attack later in the phase has been laid. If the order says that the ordered unit must do X, the order isn't resolved until X has actually happened. I understand your point about "must immediately" vs. "must," but I think it fails to account for the natural meaning of "resolved."

which is why the 'Get Back into the Fight' requires the 'immediately' qualifier. This is an action that cannot be executed without an exception being made to the order of operations.

[Charon]

I guess nothing.
They have to shoot but cant which means they may not run either (as they should have been shooting).
Tbh I dont think you will see that situation very often. RAI is (I guess) to force the unit to an action and disable other options.

[Tynskel]

As for the original question: what happens if you order a unit to fire that does not see a target?

Indirect fire weapons may still fire.

What if there is no viable target?
Consult the Main Rulebook: nothing happens, except for the expenditure of an order.

[Turner]

As for the original question: what happens if you order a unit to fire that does not see a target?

Indirect fire weapons may still fire.

What if there is no viable target?
Consult the Main Rulebook: nothing happens, except for the expenditure of an order.


That's what I thought after reading through the Main Rulebook. (Minus the indirect fire weapons part, I missed that.) Thank you Tynskel.

[Crydon Games]

This thread is one of the more annoying attempts to make a problem where there is not one. If you read

"Quote Originally Posted by Turner
Astra Militarum's Voice of Command specifically states:
Voice Of Command
A model with this special rule is known as an officer. An officer can issue one order each turn. Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. If you have more than one officer, or if you have an officer that has a special rule allowing it to issue more than one order a turn, issue and resolve each order one at a time."

It is very clear that orders are issued and carried out one at a time. It says issued and resolved at the start of the shooting phase...and it says that you issue and resolve each one at a time.

"Astra Miltarum Orders
'Take Aim!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Smite at Will!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Forwards, for the Emperor!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Move Move Move!' The ordered unit must Run.
'Suppressive Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Bring it Down!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Fire on My Target!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move."

All you have summed up here is the order and its effect...ie "suppressive fire" is the order, "the ordered unit must make a shooting attack" is the effect... and again, reading Voice of Command, it clearly states that orders and their effects are carried out at the beginning of the shooting phase...the shooting phase does not progress beyond orders until all orders and their effects are carried out...then on to normal shoot/run.

There is no more to read into this, and again I say that the original question is irrelevant as there is no advantage to issuing a "shoot" order to a unit which has no enemy in sight.

And for the record, "get back in the fight" only says immediately because, as orders are issued and carried out at the start of the shooting phase, a unit given this order can make a normal shooting attack once the "beginning of the shooting phase" progresses beyond orders to the portion where normal shooting/run happens.

[Katharon]

Crydon nailed it.

[Gleipnir]

yup pretty much

[Tynskel]

This thread is one of the more annoying attempts to make a problem where there is not one. If you read

"Quote Originally Posted by Turner
Astra Militarum's Voice of Command specifically states:
Voice Of Command
A model with this special rule is known as an officer. An officer can issue one order each turn. Orders are issued and their effects resolved at the start of your Shooting phase. If you have more than one officer, or if you have an officer that has a special rule allowing it to issue more than one order a turn, issue and resolve each order one at a time."

It is very clear that orders are issued and carried out one at a time. It says issued and resolved at the start of the shooting phase...and it says that you issue and resolve each one at a time.

"Astra Miltarum Orders
'Take Aim!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Smite at Will!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Forwards, for the Emperor!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Move Move Move!' The ordered unit must Run.
'Suppressive Fire!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Bring it Down!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Fire on My Target!' The ordered unit must make a shooting attack.
'Get Back in The Fight!' The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back but it does not make a 3" move."

All you have summed up here is the order and its effect...ie "suppressive fire" is the order, "the ordered unit must make a shooting attack" is the effect... and again, reading Voice of Command, it clearly states that orders and their effects are carried out at the beginning of the shooting phase...the shooting phase does not progress beyond orders until all orders and their effects are carried out...then on to normal shoot/run.

There is no more to read into this, and again I say that the original question is irrelevant as there is no advantage to issuing a "shoot" order to a unit which has no enemy in sight.

And for the record, "get back in the fight" only says immediately because, as orders are issued and carried out at the start of the shooting phase, a unit given this order can make a normal shooting attack once the "beginning of the shooting phase" progresses beyond orders to the portion where normal shooting/run happens.

I guess I should have posted:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?21435-Tynskel-s-Guide-to-Interpreting-Rules&p=194151&viewfull=1#post194151

[Nabterayl]

cf. (http://nooooooooooooooo.com/)

[Tynskel]

cf. (http://nooooooooooooooo.com/)

bwahahahah!

[John Bower]

Actually there can be a point to issuing 'pointless' orders. Its' the same as in X-Wing, it can be one of those piddly things that is hard to remember for somebody new to guard, so encourage them to give orders even if they are worthless; that way they will begin to remember to do so. In X-wing you have a system of 'actions' and when I was taught it I was encouraged to put an action on a ship even though we might be miles from being in range to use an action. But it helped to remember to do it. So yep, I say always give your orders even if you don't have any use for them, get all your officers to give their orders anyway. What harm can it have? But it will help a new player get used to it, and if people had helped me like that it wouldn't have taken me till the new cards came out to start remembering my orders.

[Charistoph]

Actually there can be a point to issuing 'pointless' orders. Its' the same as in X-Wing, it can be one of those piddly things that is hard to remember for somebody new to guard, so encourage them to give orders even if they are worthless; that way they will begin to remember to do so. In X-wing you have a system of 'actions' and when I was taught it I was encouraged to put an action on a ship even though we might be miles from being in range to use an action. But it helped to remember to do it. So yep, I say always give your orders even if you don't have any use for them, get all your officers to give their orders anyway. What harm can it have? But it will help a new player get used to it, and if people had helped me like that it wouldn't have taken me till the new cards came out to start remembering my orders.

Still, aren't there other orders than "Shoot with a special style!" that could be better used to remembering to make Orders?

[John Bower]

Still, aren't there other orders than "Shoot with a special style!" that could be better used to remembering to make Orders?

Pretty much any order will do except move orders. My point was that somebody said there was no point to issuing unnecessary orders, and that is a valid point for issuing them. Any shoot order that is useless is just useful for remembering to issue them...

[Gleipnir]

So the logic is issue orders to remember to issue orders, but because you may be penalized with a bad die result while issuing useless orders, you additionally have to remember to only issue your useless orders after you have already attempted to issue the orders you care about.

Seems to me if you are already to the point you have to remember to do the later remembering to do the former just for the sake of remembering is just silly.

[Katharon]

At this point we should all be wearing bowler hats, monocles, tweed jackets and accompany all posts with "Harumph!".

[This Dave]

At this point we should all be wearing bowler hats, monocles, tweed jackets and accompany all posts with "Harumph!".

I bought a white British Foreign Service helmet to wear when playing my Praetorians, will that work?

[SquigBrain]

I bought a white British Foreign Service helmet to wear when playing my Praetorians, will that work?

Pics or it didn't happen. :)

[John Bower]

So the logic is issue orders to remember to issue orders, but because you may be penalized with a bad die result while issuing useless orders, you additionally have to remember to only issue your useless orders after you have already attempted to issue the orders you care about.

Seems to me if you are already to the point you have to remember to do the later remembering to do the former just for the sake of remembering is just silly.


You're missing my point entirely; what I'm saying is in the first turn there aren't usually many orders and most of what you have is going to be pretty useless especially in for eg Hammer and Anvil. So you give orders anyway just so you remember to 'give orders' when it does actually matter. It's not meant for people used to playing guard, it's meant for people who aren't used to that way of doing things. Guard orders are very easily overlooked, it can often be missed while you're thinking, "ah, I need to target that squad, I'll fire at them.... Oh, drat, forgot to do my FRFSRF order first".

When things are not easy to remember just do them even if they are unnecessary, that way you form a habit; rather than having to consciously think about it all the time. Even now I tend to miss junior officers if I do it the way this thread indicates; rather I just put a card with the order next to the unit that it's been given to, then enact the orders first, followed by the rest of the shooting phase. In reality it doesn't matter how you play it; as long as you give the orders to your units. And there are a lot of instances among the tank commander orders of being 'immediately' which suggests that 'resolving' the order means the officer giving it and the unit receiving it being resolved before you give the next one. Then they carry out the order during the shooting phase.

[Gleipnir]

You're missing my point entirely; what I'm saying is in the first turn there aren't usually many orders and most of what you have is going to be pretty useless especially in for eg Hammer and Anvil. So you give orders anyway just so you remember to 'give orders' when it does actually matter. It's not meant for people used to playing guard, it's meant for people who aren't used to that way of doing things. Guard orders are very easily overlooked, it can often be missed while you're thinking, "ah, I need to target that squad, I'll fire at them.... Oh, drat, forgot to do my FRFSRF order first".

When things are not easy to remember just do them even if they are unnecessary, that way you form a habit; rather than having to consciously think about it all the time. Even now I tend to miss junior officers if I do it the way this thread indicates; rather I just put a card with the order next to the unit that it's been given to, then enact the orders first, followed by the rest of the shooting phase. In reality it doesn't matter how you play it; as long as you give the orders to your units. And there are a lot of instances among the tank commander orders of being 'immediately' which suggests that 'resolving' the order means the officer giving it and the unit receiving it being resolved before you give the next one. Then they carry out the order during the shooting phase.

Naw I understood what ya meant John, I was just being sarcastic.

Nothing wrong with reinforcing mechanics, if they don't hurt your play or enjoyment.

[John Bower]

Naw I understood what ya meant John, I was just being sarcastic.

Nothing wrong with reinforcing mechanics, if they don't hurt your play or enjoyment.

No worries mate. I learned a long time ago not to take anything too personally; especially on the net... haha