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View Full Version : Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard - A Comprehensive Review & Comparison



Katharon
04-21-2014, 06:02 AM
OK folks, so here is an opening disclaimer, statement, or what-have-you regarding this article. It's as comprehensive and objective as I can make it in reviewing a codex that I've been looking forward to for about two years now. I will say in advance that I am heavily disappointed in Games Workshop for discontinuing the practice of telling us who wrote the rules. If, as some have speculated, they've moved towards crowd-sourcing to brainstorm their codices, then I can only fear for some and be happy for others. The format and style of this review will be in accordance to the unit description pages that give you the background details and special rules for models, if any are given. After that will come the review of the Orders that officers can give, the Relics, and summed up by a general feel for the codex as a whole.




Astra Militarum (but let's not kid ourselves, they're really the) Imperial Guard


A Codex Review – PART ONE



Units

Company Command Squads


Not very much has changed the core of the Company Command Squad. The Captain-grade senior officer and his four cronies do their usual thing. The upgrades that they formally had access to remain, and in some places received improvements – such as with the Wargear Relics. Where things get really interesting is the Regimental Supervisors.

The Regimental Supervisors got cheaper across the board and a few of their rules changed, making them even more versatile and interesting to take. The Master of Ordnance remains the awesomeness that he is, basically now being the cheapest way to take a Strength 9 AP3 Ordnance, Barrage large blast in your army. The Astropath got a huge buff in the fact that he is now a Level 1 psyker and can take his powers from the Telepathy table of powers – a huge thing for those that love “Puppet Master.” The Officer of the fleet got more versatile in that he no longer simply gives a -1 modifier to your opponent's reserve rolls; true he now has to do a leadership check to activate his abilities, but he has two of them to choose – either boosting your own reserve rolls or reducing your opponent's. That's a lot of nice buffs.

Only sad thing of note is that you can now no longer take normal bodyguards with your Company Command Squads. Instead, if you want some extra meat shield going on you've got to pay those points to get Nork Deddog.


Tank Commanders


Possibly the greatest thing that has appeared with this new codex and something that has tread-heads the world over making a mess of themselves, is the Tank Commander. You are now able to field a bonafide tank army....well, sort of anyway. For a relatively cheap cost you can take a tank heavy army. Boy oh boy does it deliver too. While you no longer have access to the normal Senior Officer orders that the ground-pounders are forced to use, the Tank Commander himself has his own set of special orders that can be given to his own tank and the squadron he is with.

The only thing really missing from all of this is that GW didn't take it that extra step further, like Forgeworld did, and allow the Tank Commander to do his real job and actually give orders to other tanks outside of his immediate unit. It's a rather large gap in their efforts here, but at least we finally have a tread-commander to field.


Commissars


The boys in black & red are back and boy oh boy...they're pretty much the same. In the new organizational method that GW has developed for the IG, Commissars are now able to be taken – one for each Company Command Squad and Platoon Command Squad in your army. Now, they did get a bit cheaper – five points to be exact – which is nice, but we are also now limited on how many we can take. I once fielded twelve commissars in a single game with ten infantry squads from two separate platoons and two lord commissars, with the old fifth edition codex. That list is now impossible. But at the same time, the new organization means that I can put a regular commissar in with a whole host of new units that they previously could only be part of if they had a “lord” hanging with their title of commissar. So...taking with the right and giving with the left is the general feeling here.

Summary Execution, that exciting method of keeping a unit from breaking or failing a morale, pinning, or fear test has gotten a lot more interesting. Formerly it meant that your unit's leader, whoever happened to have the highest leadership (that meant ICs as well), would take a bolt round to the brain pan. Now, ANYONE can be the bolt-magnate and the level of randomness enters with the rolling of a D6 to determine whether you or your opponent get to choose who dies and who doesn't. This is much more interesting, as it means that your normal grunts can take up the slack and protect your leadership models – but it also means that if your opponent doesn't like your squad sniper, then he will most likely be taking the fall.


Ministorum Priests


These guys got a lot of cool new stuff and lost a bit of their old bling. First up, they did lose their ability to take the Eviscerator, that nice chainblade style sword that could cut through just about anything. In exchange they can now tote around with a plasma gun. You decide whether or not that is a bonus. They are now much cheaper than before, but are also limited 0-3 per army whereas before they were 0-5.

They did receive Zealot – which helps *a lot* with people that like to be a bit nutty and have an entire 50-man blob squad go charging at something with bayonets.

What can make these Priests really shine, and what may cause you to start seeing a lot more of them on the game board, is their special ability called “War Hymns.” Re-rolling failed armor and invul saves; giving his close-combat attacks Smash; or re-rolling failed to wound – this guy helps to pack a real punch.


Primaris Psykers


Likely the cheapest way to get a Level 2 psyker in the game and having access to all the best ability tables for psykic powers, it's hard not to like these guys. They became baseline cheaper, and only five points more expensive for that upgrade to Level 2. Having the ability to take 0-3, instead of the old 1-2 is a nice addition as well.

Expect to see a lot of these guys on the field as well.


Enginseers


An independent character that is already creating waves amongst the community, the Enginseers are probably going to be seen on the field now far more than they ever have before in the history of the Imperial Guard. Not only are they cheaper (including cheaper servitors), but they are also able to bestow 'Power of the Machine Spirit' onto a friendly vehicle. What is even cooler, in some respects, is that the Enginseer can perform that little magic trick from inside of a transport, since it replaces his normal shooting attack.

Highly advisable to take these guys.


Infantry Platoons


The Bread & Butter of any standard Imperial Guard army, the infantry platoons are a classic. Far from receiving any downgrades, this particular choice of Troop seems to have received several buffs. The standard platoon command squad and infantry squad remain largely unchanged (minus the ability to take a commissar as an upgrade...yeah, it's a sore note for me), while the Heavy Weapon Squads got cheaper. Even though autocannons are five points more expensive, a heavy weapon squad can still take three autocannons for the same price as they did back in 5th edition. Have no fear for those that love to spam them. Another added benefit is that, like all subsequent codices after the CSM codex, the IG now have access to flakk missiles. Not a big surprise, but an added bonus for those ground pounders that don't take a lot of flyers.

Biggest thing of note is that Conscript squads now became much cheaper. You're now able to field an entire blob of fifty conscripts for fifty points cheaper than before. So that's good news for anyone with a fetish for throwing cannon fodder across the board.


Veterans


The even better Bread & Butter for IG players that like to be versatile and hit more often with their weapons at range, Veteran Squads are back and with a new set of blue suede shoes. Cheaper on the base cost (due to no longer having stock krak grenades), they are now able to take their precious Doctrines for an even cheaper price and can still take multiple doctrines at the same time. Wargear options remain pretty much the same except as noted above.

Sergeant Harker is making a comeback this edition as well, wielding his beloved 'Payback' heavy bolter just as he always did. The only drawback would be the loss of Feel No Pain, Stealth, and Move Through Cover USRs. Makes quite a bit of difference in how you play his specific unit, but he does come with Relentless this edition and his own particular heavy bolter has the Rending USR. Point wise, he remains the same. Going to have to say that, due to the loss of FnP and Stealth, Harker lost a lot of the shine that made him useful to camo-cloaked Veteran Squads.


Chimeras Transports


The workhorse transport of the IG. It got more expensive and fewer models can fire out of the top – those are its downsides. The upside, it has “lasgun arrays” that can be used by models inside the transport to fire (like the Necron transports), except that these are a bit more special.

According to the rules as written, you're able to fire at up to four different targets with a Chimera. You can first fire with the Chimera's main weapons, the multi-laser and hull weapon at one target. The unit inside can fire at one target from the top hatch. The two laser arrays, one to each side, can each fire at a separate target from the rest.

Whether or not this multi-tasking makes up for the points increase and losing the ability to fire three Veteran plasma guns & a heavy weapon out the top hatch is up to you to decide.


Taurox


The new transport that everyone loves to bash on – and well deservedly I believe. The best way to look at the Taurox is as a more expensive and less well armored Rhino. The only pluses it has is that it comes tock with a twin-linked autocannon (main reason to take it) and it's 15 points cheaper than the Chimera. It also has a cool feature of being 'all-terrain' and can re-roll failed Dangerous Terrain checks.

Based on the fact that its cheaper than the old Chimera and a lot cheaper than the new Chimera, you might see a lot of the old Mech-IG players spamming these things to take advantage of a 50-point twin-linked autocannon.


Taurox Prime


The one shining jewel of the new transports, the Taurox Prime comes in at a hefty thirty points greater than the normal Taurox. But it also carries a lot more weaponry and is manned by Veterans – as it has a nice Ballistic Skill 4. It's stock weaponry, the Taurox Battle Cannon and twin-linked hot-shot volley gun, are rather nice. It can be further upgraded to more interesting weapon choices, of which the Taurox Missile Launcher is superb.

Downside is that you can only take these models if you take the new Tempestus Scions, which ups the point requirements to field them. I kind of feel that GW's aim for this transport was to make it good enough and just cheap enough (point wise) to make you want to take Tempestus Scions as an army or as the majority of your regular IG force – just so you can take these bad boys.

If you have someone near your area that has fallen in love with the Scions and their supplemental codex, then expect to see a lot of these – and be prepared to weep.


Wyrdvane Psykers


The new Combat Psyker Squad with a name to match their shiny new rules. They're fairly much the same as before except can now take a different psykic power from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis.

That plethora alone makes them powerful. If you have players that love to use as much psykic power as possible, then expect to see these on the battlefield much more often.


Ratlings


An old favorite and constantly underrated by players (including IG players), the Ratling snipers are back and better. They remain the same point cost and retain their special rules, but they received a new rule that makes them absolutely excellent: “Shoot Sharp and Scarper.” This lets the Ratlings make a normal shooting attack and then run immediately after in the same phase. Eat your hearts our Eldar Rangers.


Ogryns


We finally have a plastic model for Ogryns! Hip-hip-horray!

Ok, now back to a reality check. While it was nice to see these guys finally get their own plastic kit, they suffered a bit on the rule side of the scales. They remain expensive point wise, retaining the same cost as a 2+/3++ power-fist totting Terminator; they lost their Furious Charge USR and instead gained Hammer of Wrath (not that good a trade in this writer's opinion); and every ogryn apparently went to the gym to work out because they changed from 'Bulky' to 'Very Bulky,' which means that fewer can fit into a single transport.

The one bright point in this rather dark tale is that Ogryns can now ride in the back of a Valkyrie – which they were forbidden from doing in 5th edition. So your merry band of Shrek-look-alikes can go parachuting into combat – which is admittedly a rather interesting tactical choice, but expensive as explained above.


Bullgryns


For those times when regular Ogryns just aren't enough smash-bang in close-combat, GW was nice enough to give us some purely close-combat oriented ogryns.

Coming in at fifteen points *more* expensive than normal Ogryns, these guys can become a bit of a point sink. But boy oh boy do they hit like a slab of metal (aren't I punny?). Their standard wargear is a bit better than normal Ogryns, being equipped with carapace armor instead of flak. They also have a 'slabshield' which when base-to-base with another Bullgryn-model gives them all a +1 to their armor save. So, as long as you have two bullgryn with slabshields alive and touching each other's bases, then they've got power armor.

What's even more, you can change out their base weaponry, the slabshield and some grenade gauntlet (I dunno, they might have been running dry on creative names), for a 'brute shield' and a power maul. Now, that's pretty cool because the brute shield gives the wielder a 5++ invulnerable save.

The one mistake (and I believe it is a mistake) that GW made with this particular unit, is that you are not able to take a slabshield with a power maul. If you want the power maul then you've got to take the brute shield with it. Because Bullgryn's are apparently just picky like that.


Rough Riders


The last gasp of the old chivalric ways within the grim dark of the 40th millennium battlefield...and GW decided to kick them in the nuts, but we'll get to that in a moment. As it stands, these guys are identical to what they were last edition. Which is a shame really.

The nut-kick that came in for the Rough Riders, is that their glorious and barbaric leader Mogul Kamir is no longer in the codex as an available upgrade. Now maybe we will see him again in a dataslate – who knows – but I can tell you that without his presence Rough Riders are just not as useful or strong as they could be. A nice compromise would have been to increase the weapon skill of the Rough Riders in exchange for Mogul Kamir's absence – but alas, we're stuck out in the cold clutching the family jewels in pain.

Anyone who was a fan of this unit and fielded it often will be sad to see Kamir gone but at least satisfied in knowing that the base unit is not devastatingly changed in any way.


Scout & Armored Sentinels


One of the more underrated units in the Fast Attack Choice section of the army book, the Sentinels are back with a few nice buffs. The points are now cheaper for the Armored Sentinel (the one worth really taking). The only real problem is that several Vehicle Upgrades became more expensive, such as the camo-nets. So price-wise, if that is a standard upgrade for you, it can be about the same in price as before.

A good solid Fast Attack choice however.


Leman Russ Tanks


The favorite part of any tread-headed IG player, the Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Things for this section are a bit of a mixed bag. There were a lot of point decreases and some increases, as was to be expected.

The cheapest tank is, as always, the one that no one ever likes because of its rather weak gun: the Eradicator. Good if you're going to fight in a city, but weak on pretty much all other fronts.

The Demolisher is now the most expensive tank – surprisingly to a certain degree.

The most sad part about the entire section however is the Executioner. Due undoubtedly to the codex writer's constant death in the face of plasma pie plates from the Executioner, it's main gun is now susceptible to the Gets Hot! rule. This is such a blow to anyone that was a fan of this tank. Not only do the plasma cannon side sponsons get hot, but no so too does the main gun – you know, that thing that's suppose to have a giant heat sink attached to it. Apparently the Adeptus Mechanicus is too busy making shiny new Grav-weaponry to maintain a few relatively simple heat sinks in a friggen' tank.

Overall, a good improvement on certain point costs. No real problems except as noted above.


Vendettas & Valkyries


Still one of the most powerful flyers in the game, the Vendetta naturally took a few hits from the nerf bat to the chin. The expected points increase came, but so too did some other nerfs. Biggest example is the transport capacity which has been reduced from 12 to 6. No more putting Veterans in a Vendetta folks – you're reduced to Special Weapon Squads, Tempestus Scions, and maybe a command squad.

Even Valkyries got a point increase – but at least they're still cheaper than the new Vendetta; a whole fifty points cheaper in fact!

Both the Valkyries and Vendettas took a hit by the loss of Scout and Deep Strike USRs.

You'll still see these things flying in the air, but you're not as likely to see as many of them.


Hydras


The plastic kit that people have been waiting for since the original release of the Leman Russ and Chimera and Basilisk: the Hydra. Now, as shiny and new and nice as this kit is, don't be fooled!

Five points cheaper than the older 5th edition Hydra...that's about the only real improvement. In fact there is a greater loss for Hydra lovers than before. This is due to the fact that Hydra's have lost their auto-targeting system.

When 6th edition first came out and GW released its FAQs to update older codex units (until they received their own update), Hydras were simply given the Skyfire rule in addition to their older rules. That was great because the 'auto-targeting system' meant that Hydra's – due to being the best anti-air tank in the game – could ignore cover; which meant that all those nasty Helldrakes and Stormravens don't get any Jink saves against a Hydras firepower – well, didn't. Past tense.

Now we've got Skyfire written into the codex but auto-targeting systems have been removed. Interceptor USR would have been nice as a replacement, but then people would start spamming Hydras – and we can't have that. So the hydras took a bit of a nerf, but hey, at least we got a plastic kit.


Basilisk Battery


Old Reliable in the artillery department, the Basilisk has remained entirely unchanged. Which is sad really when you consider what else is no longer present within the new codex...


Wyverns


The new kit to fill in the shoes of the Medusa, Colossus, and Griffons...*headdesk*

Seriously, though, the Wyvern is a decent light artillery piece for use against hordes. I think whoever wrote the codex designed the Wyvern to be used specifically against ork boyz, 'nid gaunts, and traitor IG blobs. People that are a fan of the old Quad Gun/Thudd Guns will see a lot of similarities, but will not likely be swayed from continuing to use their Thudd Guns.

On a purely kit-based scrutiny objection – I must say that it was incredibly lazy for them to simply take the Hydra, cut off it's autocannon barrrels, and then go “yup, this is a totally different tank.” I'm sure it's saving GW money in producing them, but boy would I have a few words to say with whoever made that design decision.


Manticore


One of the more feared pieces of artillery in the IG codex, and sadly not available in squadrons, is the Manticore. It is entirely unchanged in its design or stats with only a small ten points bump in point cost.


Deathstrike Missile Launcher


The real winner in the artillery department this time around is the Deathstrike. The exact same point cost and stat line, it functions pretty much the same as it did in 5th edition but with one minor detail...

...it's main weapon, the Deathstrike missile, is now an Apocolyse blast. No more piddling D3+3” for its blast radius – this baby is a full ten inches. It is also slightly easier to fire than before, on a 4+ instead of a 6+.

It remains S10 AP1, Ordnance 1, apoc blast, barrage, and ignores cover. This baby is going to hurt and hurt big time wherever it hits. Worth the points.


Hellhounds, Devil Dogs, & Banewolves


These three standard forms of the flame-thrower tank are all pretty much the same with only a few minor changes in the point costs. They can still be taken in squadrons, which is nice. The hellhound went down in points and the Devil Dog went up in points. The Banewolf stayed the same.


Commissar Yarrick


If the galaxy ever explodes and wipes out all life as the Emperor knows it, there'll still be Commissar Yarrick left alive in the aftermath. The old cantankerous hero of Armageddon is still a strong and powerful character to take.

He is pretty much unchanged from the last edition. Only a few differences with the change of wording in how a commissar executes people. His Bale Eye is a bit changed, but not overly so. He also took a significant reduction in points, which makes him more viable as a primary HQ and Warlord choice. He is also the only commissar character that has the “Senior Officer” special rule – which means he can give orders just like a Company Commander can. Worth it if you like your Warlord to be an Eternal Warrior.


Lord Castellan Creed


”Creeeeeed!”

The man who use to be able to bestow the Scout USR upon any given unit in your army (but no longer) is still awesome. Apparently the writer(s) of the codex felt that the IG orders were pretty strong, because they reduced his old ability of giving out 4 orders a turn to only 3 now. But you can re-roll any failed order given by Creed, so that's nice.

He can now take two Warlord Traits instead of bestowing Scout upon any unit. But he did lose his special order “For the Honor of Cadia.” His point cost was reduced by ten points. Thanks to the new gunslinger rules in the Big Rule Book, Creed can fire both of his hot-shot laspistols together – but they are not twin-linked as they were before.

Color Sergeant Kell is still the same by and large, with his own point reduction.


Colonel “Iron Hand” Straken


Speaking of guys that don't die, Straken is back and looking for business. The man who use to be able to punch Land Raiders to death still can.

He's been given a few updates and USRs, such as Smash (which is like how he use to ignore armor saves regardless) and he has Monster Hunter, which makes him an interesting choice against any big bug.

His one downside is a giant increase of 50 points in cost as opposed to his old cost.


Nork Deddog


The only bodyguard available for anyone apparently, but he does the job well. Deddog is pretty much identical to his old profile, except that he is 25 points cheaper, got Very Bulky, and his 'Loyal to the End' special rule changed to allow him to intercede and replace a character in a challenge. He also received a new attack that is pretty hilarious: Thunderous Headbutt. Gives him a single +3 Strength AP3 close-combat attack in exchange for his normal attacks.

Not a bad investment if you're depending on keeping your commander alive.


Knight Commander Pask


Every tread-head's favorite upgrade from the old days, if we could fit him in, was Pask. Now? He's even better. Not only can you take Pask as your warlord, upgrading your Tank Commander with him, but his stock warlord trait gives you Preferred enemy against your codex of choice and his Crack Shot special rule has changed to fit with all the different variants of the Leman Russ. Basically the idea was that if Pask decides to shoot something at something, that something is going to be red bloody paste by the time its over.

Well worth the investment in points.



Orders

Whether it be the bellowing of a newly minted Lieutenant who posses more gumption than forethought or a seasoned company commander who listens to his non-coms before giving a few pecise instructions – orders are orders.

First, let's go over the old 5th Edition IG orders. This will not include any orders that were specific to special characters – just the main orders that were part of the Senior Officer and Junior Officer orders.

Fifth Edition Imperial Guard Codex Orders:


Number of Orders & Range of Command

The Company Commander can issue up to two orders each turn. He has a command radius of 12”.

Bring it Down!

One of my favorite orders from the old codex, BiD allowed you to order a unit to fire upon either a vehicle (or squadron of vehicles) or a monsterous creature, counting all their weapons as twin-linked. This worked great when you could have Creed issue this order to four waiting heavy weapon squads that were desperately trying to shoot down flyers – or hoping to stop that mean looking Mawloc from ripping your conscripts a new one.

Fire on my Target!

This order had its uses against armies that made a great deal of cover saves. Once given to a unit, all its shooting attacks would ignore cover saves. Handy for use against Eldar Rangers and Tau Stealth Suits.

Get Back in the Fight!

A nice emergency-situations order, GbitF allowed you to hold the line even if your entire blob squad of running-cowardly Guardsmen failed their morale the previous turn. This order was retained in the new codex, but with a small change that will be covered below....


First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

The favorite order of any IG player fond of fielding large blobs of flashlight wielding maniacs. Seriously, this order has so much potential that it's hard to describe without context. One good example from this writer's experience: ordering 50 Guardsmen to fire a fusillade into a Mawloc that popped up six inches away and firing one-hundred-fifty shots; needless to say, it died. As the old adage goes: “Quantity has a quality all its own.” The only sad part about this order was that it did not apply to the hot-shot lasguns totted by the stormtroopers.

Incoming!

A Guardsman's best friend is the earth beneath his booted feet. This order was useful at times when you needed a squad to survive a turn or two whilst sitting on an important (and possibly game winning) objective. It seems that, in retrospect, the Aegis Defense Line got it's shine from this particular order.

Move! Move! Move!

Likely to be one of the most unused order within the repertoire of the 5th Edition IG codex, MMM was about rolling three dice for your run roll – when you just really, really, really had to get a squad to move its butt double-quick.


Sixth Edition Imperial Guard Orders:


Number of Orders & Range of Command

A model with the Senior Officer rule can give two orders each turn. He has a command radius of 12”. Nothing changed here.


Take Aim! (New)

A new and interesting order, “Take Aim!” gives the 'Precision Shot' special rule to all the shooting attacks of the unit so ordered. This could be quite useful for Veteran Squads toting around with plasma guns and lascannon, able to pick off ICs and those pesky 'Nid bugs that give synapse.

Smite at Will! (New)

This order gives a unit the Split Fire special rule. This would be much more interesting if Split Fire worked the way it did (does?) for the Space Wolves' long fang squads. Unfortunately only a single model in a unit may fire at a different target from the parent unit – meaning you might be able to fire a heavy weapon team at a different target from its main squad. How useful that will be will depend on a case-by-case basis.

First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

Pretty much the same as before – except for one awesome thing: this order can now apply to hotshot lasguns! That makes it so much more fun to gun-line those pretty new Scion boys who think they can live up to the name of 'stormtrooper.'

Forward, for the Emperor! (New)

A very interesting and highly useful order, FftE allows a unit to immediately run after making a shooting attack – much like the Eldar battle meditation-thing. I can see this being used, though perhaps not in the same way that any of the testers at GW intended. 50-man blob squad fires double-tap at a scary enemy close-combat unit and then immediately runs backwards to gain that little bit of extra distance.

Move! Move! Move!

Nothing new here. Same as before. If you need to scoot then use this order.

Suppressive Fire! (New)

Another awesome new order that gives a unit's shooting attacks the Pinning special rule. Useful to use against any unit that isn't Fearless...which seems to be a dwindling number of targets considering how many ICs can give Fearless to a unit, one way or another....senior officer only.

Bring it Down! (New)

It might have the same name but this is definitely a new order. No longer giving a unit twin-linked against vehicles and monsterous creatures – this order now bestows the Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter USRs. Not to be a nay-sayer, but I personally would prefer the older version. With the IG and their usual arsenal of hard hitting heavy weapons, it's more often a case of not hitting than not wounding. But time will tell...senior officer only.

Get Back in the Fight! (New-ish)

Pretty much the same order as before except for a single nerf: the unit that successfully follows this order and regroups is not eligible to get the extra 3” that other units get for regrouping naturally. As usual, Space Marines are just cooler about regrouping than the IG. Senior officer only.


Order Impressions:


Overall we've received a nice, hefty amount of new orders and the rules for their operation are practically unchanged. There is only one small change, that done to “Inspired Tactics.” If when an officer gives an order and you roll double-ones, then the 6th edition codex allows you to make all further orders without rolling – for they were given so clearly that you didn't need to even roll. This is a big change, of sorts, from the older 5th edition “Inspired Tactics,” which allowed you to give an extra order (even if it was more than your usual allotment of orders per turn to give). I'm not sure about you guys, but we might miss that possible third order for the remainder of 6th edition...

energongoodie
04-21-2014, 07:16 AM
Great post :)

Tyrendian
04-21-2014, 07:31 AM
first of, great stuff! thanks a lot!
second, just a minor note on the Executioner: While yes, it now gets hot on the main gun, it is also now incredibly easy to twin-link, which basically removes that problem and makes it hit more in the process - so I wouldn't worry too much about it
the Deathstrike went from a 8"-12" blast to a guaranteed 10" blast - not that much of a change there... at least not as much of a buff as you make it sound...
Also, isn't Yarrick a total chicken now without either Stubborn or Fearless? :-) don't have the dex myself, just read it here somewhere...

phoenix01
04-21-2014, 07:58 AM
first of, great stuff! thanks a lot!
second, just a minor note on the Executioner: While yes, it now gets hot on the main gun, it is also now incredibly easy to twin-link, which basically removes that problem and makes it hit more in the process - so I wouldn't worry too much about it
the Deathstrike went from a 8"-12" blast to a guaranteed 10" blast - not that much of a change there... at least not as much of a buff as you make it sound...
Also, isn't Yarrick a total chicken now without either Stubborn or Fearless? :-) don't have the dex myself, just read it here somewhere...

How can it twin-link? Still reading through the new codex.

Tyrendian
04-21-2014, 08:12 AM
How can it twin-link? Still reading through the new codex.

Primaris Psykers with Divination - the primaris (lol) power twin-links the target, so you're guaranteed to get it should you want it/not roll up something better (which for that kind of army there isn't a whole lot of - maybe Perfect Timing and join him to a blob/decked out Vet squad...)

This Dave
04-21-2014, 08:37 AM
Also, despite losing the special character Rough Riders have actually gotten a bit better in my opinion. Not only do they get Hammer of Wrath attacks from being Cavalry they also get a CCW and pistol in addition to their Hunting Lance. So after they lose the Lance they at least have two or three attacks from having two weapons.

They're still not an über assault unit by any means but at least they can still do okay after the initial charge.

Houghten
04-21-2014, 08:47 AM
The cheapest tank is, as always, the one that no one ever likes because of its rather weak gun: the Eradicator.

What do you mean "as always"? In the previous codex, Eradicators were ten points more expensive than Leman Russ Battle Tanks.


Thanks to the new gunslinger rules in the Big Rule Book, Creed can fire both of his hot-shot laspistols together – but they are not twin-linked as they were before.

Still an upgrade. Two shots is always better than one twin-linked shot, whether you're Ballistic Skill 1 or 10.

CrimsonTurkey
04-21-2014, 09:51 AM
Also, despite losing the special character Rough Riders have actually gotten a bit better in my opinion. Not only do they get Hammer of Wrath attacks from being Cavalry they also get a CCW and pistol in addition to their Hunting Lance. So after they lose the Lance they at least have two or three attacks from having two weapons.

They're still not an über assault unit by any means but at least they can still do okay after the initial charge.

Exactly; the addition of that CCW means that they can still put some hurt on light infantry after the first charge. I still wish they were bright enough to bring more lance heads with them, so that they could reload between combats, but c'est la vie, non?

BigFreakySean
04-21-2014, 11:19 AM
Wyrdvane Psykers


[list] The new Combat Psyker Squad with a name to match their shiny new rules. They're fairly much the same as before except oh-so-much-better. Thanks to the writer(s) of this codex, you can now take a different psykic power from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis one for each individual psyker in the unit.



I cannot find where it says that each psyker can take a different power. Can you point me to that?

This Dave
04-21-2014, 11:22 AM
Exactly; the addition of that CCW means that they can still put some hurt on light infantry after the first charge. I still wish they were bright enough to bring more lance heads with them, so that they could reload between combats, but c'est la vie, non?

I figure the Lance either breaks or get stuck in the target so I don't have a problem with them only using them once. I do wish you could maybe pay a little extra to give them Beast Hunting Lances with maybe a meltabomb on the end for taking on big thinks or even tanks.

Something I forgot for the first post is that now if you give the RRs special weapons those guys still lose their Lance but now at least they still have two weapons for the assault. Two flame templates and then charging in will ruin most thing's day. :)

Charon
04-21-2014, 11:24 AM
second, just a minor note on the Executioner: While yes, it now gets hot on the main gun, it is also now incredibly easy to twin-link, which basically removes that problem and makes it hit more in the process - so I wouldn't worry too much about it

Twin link doesnt remove gets hot for explosive shots.
Gets hot for explosive: Roll a d6 before every "gets hot" shot, every 1 is a wound (or on 4+ a glancing hit)
Twin-link for explosive allows you to reroll the scatter dice and/or the 2d6 but not the "gets hot" roll.

This is different for weapons with "to hit" rolls, as the the "gets hot" roll and the "to hit" roll are the same.

Magos Bellum
04-21-2014, 11:38 AM
Twin link doesnt remove gets hot for explosive shots.
Gets hot for explosive: Roll a d6 before every "gets hot" shot, every 1 is a wound (or on 4+ a glancing hit)
Twin-link for explosive allows you to reroll the scatter dice and/or the 2d6 but not the "gets hot" roll.

This is different for weapons with "to hit" rolls, as the the "gets hot" roll and the "to hit" roll are the same.

Quote from page 37 of the Rulebook, under the Gets Hot and Rerolls subheading, "it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

Please try reading all the rules.

Sly
04-21-2014, 11:39 AM
Twin link doesnt remove gets hot for explosive shots.
Gets hot for explosive: Roll a d6 before every "gets hot" shot, every 1 is a wound (or on 4+ a glancing hit)
Twin-link for explosive allows you to reroll the scatter dice and/or the 2d6 but not the "gets hot" roll.

This is different for weapons with "to hit" rolls, as the the "gets hot" roll and the "to hit" roll are the same.

p37:
Gets Hot AND Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+, or Twin-linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

Nabterayl
04-21-2014, 11:46 AM
Yeah, having a shaped charge go off on the head of your lance isn't going to leave the shaft usable. You'd have to carry spare lances wholesale, and that's a pretty cumbersome prospect. I wonder how people would feel about allowing you to remove one model's hunting lance to give another model unlimited hunting lances, though (the one guy is carrying the spare lances).

CrimsonTurkey
04-21-2014, 11:56 AM
Yeah, having a shaped charge go off on the head of your lance isn't going to leave the shaft usable. You'd have to carry spare lances wholesale, and that's a pretty cumbersome prospect. I wonder how people would feel about allowing you to remove one model's hunting lance to give another model unlimited hunting lances, though (the one guy is carrying the spare lances).

If this empire is capable of somehow making the Avenger, the Caestus, and the Thunderhawk fly, I would expect it would be capable of creating some sort of shield or mechanism that would protect the shaft from the detonation. Perhaps the rider stabs his foe, releases the warhead, and charge is on a half-second timer so as not to ruin his weapon? This is the Imperium that is capable of literally shattering worlds and tearing holes in reality for the purposes of day-to-day travel needs, why can't it make a better stick?

GrauGeist
04-21-2014, 12:01 PM
From what I see, my IG army will hardly change.
- CCS, PCS, & Platoons are still good;
- Hellhounds still good;
- Russes, Basilisk and Hydra are still good.

Things that I've wanted to add should still be OK:
- Psykers
- Sentinels
- Valkyries & Vendetta
- Deathstrike Missile Launcher

Adding Nork & some Rough Riders might even be nice for completeness and theme.

Denzark
04-21-2014, 12:07 PM
I cannot find where it says that each psyker can take a different power. Can you point me to that?

+1...

Chanderzz
04-21-2014, 04:17 PM
Hey guys, I'm wondering how different the priests are from the inquisition version?

And I'm also wondering the re-rolls to save thats in melee only right? I use one in my inquisition list and his saves are only in melee. Which is perfect for my Death Cult. So is the IG one the same but re-roll range wounds?

Forgive the ignorance I haven't seen the codex yet.

Thanks - Chanderzz

Ezaviel
04-21-2014, 04:55 PM
Manticore

One of the more feared pieces of artillery in the IG codex, and sadly not available in squadrons, is the Manticore. It is entirely unchanged in its design or stats with only a small ten points bump in point cost.


Actually, it DID get a change, an upgrade in fact. Now when you suffer a weapon destroyed result each rocket counts as a seperate weapon, so you only lose 1 rocket max.

This Dave
04-21-2014, 04:56 PM
Hey guys, I'm wondering how different the priests are from the inquisition version?

And I'm also wondering the re-rolls to save thats in melee only right? I use one in my inquisition list and his saves are only in melee. Which is perfect for my Death Cult. So is the IG one the same but re-roll range wounds?

Forgive the ignorance I haven't seen the codex yet.

Thanks - Chanderzz

The only difference is that the AM version has less weapon options than the Inquisition version. The AM ones can't take Eviserators for example.

The War Hymns only work in Assault still, so no rerolling saves and such from ranged attacks in the AM either.

Steve Nicolo
04-21-2014, 04:57 PM
+1...

I only have the PDF handy right now, but, Brotherhood of Psykers treats the unit as one psyker, and that's the Wyrdvane Psykers' only special rule, so, no, they don't get to roll for a different power for each psyker. It would rule so hard if they could.

vigbrand
04-21-2014, 05:00 PM
With the way GW has screwed around with everything, you would think they would have re-introduced Commissar-Colonel Gaunt and his Tanith First and Only as "characters'. Seems like a LOT well known novel heroes are ignored, but then I have not seen the new codex for the IG (I refuse to call them 'star soldiers"..gag.) But still I hear there are improvements so if true, an Imperial Guard army may be in my future interests to build. Hmm, they need a Commissar Ciaphas Cain as well! =) lol The Emperor Protects!

Nabterayl
04-21-2014, 05:26 PM
This is the Imperium that is capable of literally shattering worlds and tearing holes in reality for the purposes of day-to-day travel needs, why can't it make a better stick?
They can make better guns, too, but that doesn't mean that Rough Riders get them.

Captain Bubonicus
04-21-2014, 06:02 PM
One note for Commissar Yarrick - he has lost the 12" "stubborn" effect from the old 5th edition "Inspirational Hero," and for some reason does not have the "Stubborn" rule like the other Commissars in the Astra Militarum codex.

Rissan4ever
04-21-2014, 06:36 PM
I don't know why he's not Stubborn anymore. But he can issue orders now, which is nice. But curiously again, he's not a Senior Officer. You'd think he would be. Hmm... Oh, well. I never used him anyway.

Katharon
04-22-2014, 08:24 AM
Exactly; the addition of that CCW means that they can still put some hurt on light infantry after the first charge. I still wish they were bright enough to bring more lance heads with them, so that they could reload between combats, but c'est la vie, non?


I figure the Lance either breaks or get stuck in the target so I don't have a problem with them only using them once. I do wish you could maybe pay a little extra to give them Beast Hunting Lances with maybe a meltabomb on the end for taking on big thinks or even tanks.

Something I forgot for the first post is that now if you give the RRs special weapons those guys still lose their Lance but now at least they still have two weapons for the assault. Two flame templates and then charging in will ruin most thing's day. :)

They actually always had the Hunting Lance, a CCW, and a laspistol. They were also declared to be Cavalry as soon as 6th edition hit the shelves, so they've been the exact same the entirety of 6th edition so far.

I'd be far more happy if they made it so that a Hunting Lance could be used the first round of every close combat that they charge into with them.

I've also made a RR tactica, previously, and as I said there - if you take away the Hunting Lance in order to give them special weapons, then the Rough Riders stops being a Rough Rider and starts being a liability.


I don't know why he's not Stubborn anymore. But he can issue orders now, which is nice. But curiously again, he's not a Senior Officer. You'd think he would be. Hmm... Oh, well. I never used him anyway.


If a model has "Senior Officer" in his Special Rules, then he is a senior officer and can act like one in giving orders. He did receive his specific Warlord Trait that acts similar to a Stubborn buff, but whether or not it's the same level of efficiency is yet to be seen.



I only have the PDF handy right now, but, Brotherhood of Psykers treats the unit as one psyker, and that's the Wyrdvane Psykers' only special rule, so, no, they don't get to roll for a different power for each psyker. It would rule so hard if they could.


All that "Brotherhood of Psykers" does is clarify that the unit that possesses it are Mastery Level 1, use the leadership of its character (if they have one) for Psychic tests, and that Perils of the Warp affects first the character (if there is one) and then randomly determined non-character models in the unit.

Wyrdvane Psykers says that they "generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis disciplines." That means that for each psyker that is in the unit, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.

It might be a slim-line reading of the rules, but it's due largely to the wording of the Wyrdvane Psykers unit. If they had said that "the unit generates it's power from..." then it's clear that the entire unit can only have a single power. However, the reading of the rule and the fact that BoP does not disbar the multiplicity of powers (it only determines their use), then it's valid.

Least in my book.


first of, great stuff! thanks a lot!
second, just a minor note on the Executioner: While yes, it now gets hot on the main gun, it is also now incredibly easy to twin-link, which basically removes that problem and makes it hit more in the process - so I wouldn't worry too much about it
the Deathstrike went from a 8"-12" blast to a guaranteed 10" blast - not that much of a change there... at least not as much of a buff as you make it sound...
Also, isn't Yarrick a total chicken now without either Stubborn or Fearless? :-) don't have the dex myself, just read it here somewhere...


Thanks Tyre. Although you have a point, it's one I still don't like. They shouldn't have been made "Get's Hot!" to begin with. *harumph*

And you might want to re-read your old IG 5th Edition codex. It says, on page 55, that it has a D3+3" blast radius. Now you might be thinking of the old Apocalypse blast for them - which is different. That's Apoc. This is regular 40K, so it's a really big change to increase the blast to that extent.



Still an upgrade. Two shots is always better than one twin-linked shot, whether you're Ballistic Skill 1 or 10.

To an argumentative extent. The Dice Gods are fickle.

gungagreg
04-22-2014, 10:24 AM
Nice review - I like these summaries and reviews to help me digest new codex releases, so thanks!

I wonder about the Ogryn comments, however. I think that they are a valid unit - especially outside a typical tournament setting.

Consider 10 Ogryn versus 10 TH/SS terminators. Let's compare on Cost, Speed, Threat Range, Survivability (versus shooting and melee). Warning...sloppy math ahead.

Cost: Nod to Ogryn clocking in at 410 points versus 455 for the terminators.

Speed: Slight nod to Terminators - They're both slow, though the terminators have a big benefit in that they can deep strike in close to the action

Threat Range: Slight nod to Ogryn - they can shoot, albeit with only an 18" threat range with their guns (6" move + 12" shot) so it's not quite as big a deal. They tie on assault range so it's just the short shooting that edges it out for the Ogryn.

Survivability - shooting: Nod to Terminators who are more survivable faced with enemy fire (two of many examples - 20xBS4 bolter shots will cause 4.4 wounds on Ogryn versus 1.1 wounds on Terminators...20xBS4 Heavy Bolter shots will cause 6.7 wounds on Ogryn versus 1.48 on Terminators).

Survivability - combat: Nod to the Ogryn. Here it's a bit tricky as with shooting since it depends on what you're up against, but let's for sake of argument compare the two against each other. Ogryn come out on top in melee against the terminators whether or not they get the charge. Here's why - on the charge, Ogryn do 1.7 wounds to terminators shooting before charging, they do 0.5 wounds from Hammer of Wrath (assuming 5 get in base to base), and they do 1.7 wounds in close combat...all before the terminators swing. That's a total of 3.9 or almost four dead terminators. The terminators do 5 wounds back - killing one Ogryn and putting two wounds on the next. This continues at a slower pace with the terminators losing slightly more than the Ogryn until after 7 rounds of combat the terminators are dead and the Ogryn have lost around 5 models.

Things are a bit more even when the terminators charge, with both sides losing about two models in the initial clash...but from that point on the Ogryns are edging the terminators out slowly but surely.

So the two aren't that far apart with the Terminators "winning" on two counts and the Ogryn on three. The Ogryn can serve an effective tar pit role, a counter attack unit defending the backfield, or in congested space where they can close the distance under cover (say a city fight or Zone Mortalis battle) they can be a leading attack unit. Are there more "efficient" units in the codex? Yes. Are Ogryns a "tournament" choice where well rounded points efficiency rules? Probably not. But where you are building to a scenario, particularly ones where the terrain is dense, they play an effective role and they bring a batch of hard hitting raw wound endurance that can bolster a gun line or other shooty IG (...errr...AM) list.

Tyrendian
04-22-2014, 11:40 AM
And you might want to re-read your old IG 5th Edition codex. It says, on page 55, that it has a D3+3" blast radius. Now you might be thinking of the old Apocalypse blast for them - which is different. That's Apoc. This is regular 40K, so it's a really big change to increase the blast to that extent.

I was basing my statement (not owning the new 'dex) off of you saying

...it's main weapon, the Deathstrike missile, is now an Apocolyse blast. No more piddling D3+3” for its blast radius – this baby is a full ten inches.

D3+3 inches of radius gives us a diameter of 8-12 inches, as I said, which is not that different from the 10" you mentioned. And not to doubt you, but that shot can't be the same full power across the entire 15" diameter tripartite Apoc template... or can it??? then I'd seriously doubt GW's sanity!

This Dave
04-22-2014, 01:42 PM
They actually always had the Hunting Lance, a CCW, and a laspistol. They were also declared to be Cavalry as soon as 6th edition hit the shelves, so they've been the exact same the entirety of 6th edition so far.

I'd be far more happy if they made it so that a Hunting Lance could be used the first round of every close combat that they charge into with them.

I've also made a RR tactica, previously, and as I said there - if you take away the Hunting Lance in order to give them special weapons, then the Rough Riders stops being a Rough Rider and starts being a liability.

Actually, no they didn't. In the 5th edition codex (page 100 to be exact) Rough Riders got a CCW or a Laspistol in addition to their Hunting Lance, not both. This made them not so great after the initial charge with only one attack each. They did get the extra attack with the Lance though, which they don't now since it's a Specialist Weapon. Having the Hammer of Wrath and three or four attacks on the charge after they lose their Lances makes them decent against things that aren't assault specialists.

And while I agree with never giving them Meltaguns or Plasmaguns because of their iffy BS not giving them Flamers is a mistake in my opinion. For only 10 points you can drop two Flamer templates on a unit before or instead of charging. I would rather have two templates into a mob of Orks/Guard/Cultists to thin their numbers down before charging in both to cut down on Overwatch fire and keep from getting overwhelmed by numbers. They're even better against things in Power Armor than charging with the Lance if there's more than one or two things to charge. On average a RR charging a Marine with the Lance will get .67 kills. This is the same chance as hitting four Marines with a Flamer which is quite easy to do with a template. And if you still want to make sure Lances come into play make sure the Flamer guys are in the front rank so they take any Overwatch hits and leave the Lancers to avenge them.

Nabterayl
04-22-2014, 02:15 PM
On average a RR charging a Marine with the Lance will get .67 kills.
I absolutely agree with your assessment of flamers in RR squads, but I think your lance kill numbers are off. I make it 1.1 kills: 0.11 kills for Hammer of Wrath (1/1 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, 1/3 chance to kill, times 1 attack), and 1.0 kills for the lance (1/2 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to wound, 1/1 chance to kill, times 3 attacks).

Eldar_Atog
04-22-2014, 02:27 PM
Wyrdvane Psykers says that they "generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis disciplines." That means that for each psyker that is in the unit, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.


So what happens when the unit takes wounds and loses models? Does the power tied to the wounded model go away?

This Dave
04-22-2014, 04:13 PM
I absolutely agree with your assessment of flamers in RR squads, but I think your lance kill numbers are off. I make it 1.1 kills: 0.11 kills for Hammer of Wrath (1/1 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, 1/3 chance to kill, times 1 attack), and 1.0 kills for the lance (1/2 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to wound, 1/1 chance to kill, times 3 attacks).

I didn't add in the HoW true. But a regular RR only gets two Lance attacks on the charge as the Hunting Lance is a Specialist Weapon. So 2 attacks times .5 to hit times .67 to wound equals .67. Or .78 adding in the HoW. Just have to flame an extra Marine to make up for that. :)

GrauGeist
04-22-2014, 05:00 PM
not giving them Flamers is a mistake in my opinion. For only 10 points you can drop two Flamer templates on a unit before or instead of charging.

When I field Assault Marines, I take 2 Flamers. They're that good. Against Sv5+ and worse, those flamers are far better than the Power Lances ever would be.

For example, a handful of Tyranid Genestealers appear. If you have nothing but Power Lances, you're screwed. But ride alongside and light 'em up with a couple Flamer Templates? Bad bug bar-be-cue for the win! Even smaller stuff like Orks, Cultists and Guard lose more to Flamers than Power Lances.

John Bower
04-22-2014, 05:08 PM
I was basing my statement (not owning the new 'dex) off of you saying


D3+3 inches of radius gives us a diameter of 8-12 inches, as I said, which is not that different from the 10" you mentioned. And not to doubt you, but that shot can't be the same full power across the entire 15" diameter tripartite Apoc template... or can it??? then I'd seriously doubt GW's sanity!

It's the 10" blast marker, and is full power across it. :) 6th ed, you don't lose power anymore except when it has 3 str and ap listings for the 15" marker.

Nabterayl
04-22-2014, 07:56 PM
Wyrdvane Psykers says that they "generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis disciplines." That means that for each psyker that is in the unit, each one can roll to get a different power.
I don't think I'm with you on this one, Kath. There are no psykers in a Wyrdvane Psykers unit. None of the models have the Psyker special rule.


I didn't add in the HoW true. But a regular RR only gets two Lance attacks on the charge as the Hunting Lance is a Specialist Weapon.
Why so it is. Missed that the first time around.

Gleipnir
04-22-2014, 09:18 PM
Brotherhood of Psykers makes the whole unit count as a Psyker but doesn't change the amount of powers that can be selected by the unit as a whole(That's based on the mastery level), trust me when I say you want it this way, Zoanthropes with 4 powers to choose from and Pink Horrors able to use any Change power they want is what you get from interpreting it otherwise.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 06:07 AM
I was basing my statement (not owning the new 'dex) off of you saying


D3+3 inches of radius gives us a diameter of 8-12 inches, as I said, which is not that different from the 10" you mentioned. And not to doubt you, but that shot can't be the same full power across the entire 15" diameter tripartite Apoc template... or can it??? then I'd seriously doubt GW's sanity!

No, it's may fault for focusing on the radius and not the diameter.


Actually, no they didn't. In the 5th edition codex (page 100 to be exact) Rough Riders got a CCW or a Laspistol in addition to their Hunting Lance, not both. This made them not so great after the initial charge with only one attack each. They did get the extra attack with the Lance though, which they don't now since it's a Specialist Weapon. Having the Hammer of Wrath and three or four attacks on the charge after they lose their Lances makes them decent against things that aren't assault specialists.

And while I agree with never giving them Meltaguns or Plasmaguns because of their iffy BS not giving them Flamers is a mistake in my opinion. For only 10 points you can drop two Flamer templates on a unit before or instead of charging. I would rather have two templates into a mob of Orks/Guard/Cultists to thin their numbers down before charging in both to cut down on Overwatch fire and keep from getting overwhelmed by numbers. They're even better against things in Power Armor than charging with the Lance if there's more than one or two things to charge. On average a RR charging a Marine with the Lance will get .67 kills. This is the same chance as hitting four Marines with a Flamer which is quite easy to do with a template. And if you still want to make sure Lances come into play make sure the Flamer guys are in the front rank so they take any Overwatch hits and leave the Lancers to avenge them.


I stand corrected. It does say "or." A normal rough rider will have 2 attacks on the charge with a hunting lance and 3 attacks with cc-weapon and pistol. And these guys aren't really the assault specialists that they were in 5th (when they had Kamir). Regardless of what weapon they have, they are still only WS3 Guardsmen. I'll link you to my 5th edition tactica on them (http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=105775). I'll have to change it unless we get Kamir back with the Furious Charge and Rage USRs.



So what happens when the unit takes wounds and loses models? Does the power tied to the wounded model go away?

Yes, it does. Just like if a Primaris Psyker dies and his power go with him. You have to remember that it's one power to one psyker, but using it takes all of them working together (BoP). If the one psyker dies with the knowledge of the power, the others will not know that power because they have their own dedicated power to remember.


I don't think I'm with you on this one, Kath. There are no psykers in a Wyrdvane Psykers unit. None of the models have the Psyker special rule.


It's a unit of psykers. It even says it on their page (p.42) in bold: Psykers. They have the psyker special rule collectively.


Brotherhood of Psykers makes the whole unit count as a Psyker but doesn't change the amount of powers that can be selected by the unit as a whole(That's based on the mastery level), trust me when I say you want it this way, Zoanthropes with 4 powers to choose from and Pink Horrors able to use any Change power they want is what you get from interpreting it otherwise.

Based on the reading and wording of this codex that I have in my hand, that is how it works. If the Tyranids Codex and Chaos Daemons codex has the same wording then you can have it that way as well. Still doesn't change the fact that even if you have a unit with ten different powers they can still only use one power each turn.

Like I said, BoP doesn't limit the knowledge of powers in a psykic unit, it only limits their power usage.

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 07:22 AM
Based on the reading and wording of this codex that I have in my hand, that is how it works. If the Tyranids Codex and Chaos Daemons codex has the same wording then you can have it that way as well. Still doesn't change the fact that even if you have a unit with ten different powers they can still only use one power each turn.

Like I said, BoP doesn't limit the knowledge of powers in a psykic unit, it only limits their power usage.

Per the rules for Psykers, Mastery Level determines the number of powers that may be chosen. And Brotherhood of Psykers is the only ability conferring said mastery level, yes they are all individual psykers but absent their brotherhood rule they aren't generating a Warp charge or selecting powers.

All the brotherhood of Psyker units have the Psyker: followed by what powers they may select from entry, its not unique to AM Wyrdvane, it is just an informational blurb for what trees you may select from.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 07:58 AM
Per the rules for Psykers, Mastery Level determines the number of powers that may be chosen. And Brotherhood of Psykers is the only ability conferring said mastery level, yes they are all individual psykers but absent their brotherhood rule they aren't generating a Warp charge or selecting powers.

All the brotherhood of Psyker units have the Psyker: followed by what powers they may select from entry, its not unique to AM Wyrdvane, it is just an informational blurb for what trees you may select from.

As I said previously:


All that "Brotherhood of Psykers" does is clarify that the unit that possesses it are Mastery Level 1, use the leadership of its character (if they have one) for Psychic tests, and that Perils of the Warp affects first the character (if there is one) and then randomly determined non-character models in the unit.

Wyrdvane Psykers says that they "generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis disciplines." That means that for each psyker that is in the unit, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.

It might be a slim-line reading of the rules, but it's due largely to the wording of the Wyrdvane Psykers unit. If they had said that "the unit generates it's power from..." then it's clear that the entire unit can only have a single power. However, the reading of the rule and the fact that BoP does not disbar the multiplicity of powers (it only determines their use), then it's valid.

Least in my book.

It's down the grammar of the writing. If they FAQ this, then that's fine. But until then, if I field or am facing a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers, this is how I expect to use/face them.

Charon
04-23-2014, 08:35 AM
It's a unit of psykers. It even says it on their page (p.42) in bold: Psykers. They have the psyker special rule collectively.



Sorry but they have not. Its not listed under special rules. They have the Brotherhood of Psyker rule, thats it.
Pink Horrors for example have EXACT the same wording (powerS and the bolded PSYKER when the chose their school of magic) but they can increase mastery level with number of horrors.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 08:40 AM
Sorry but they have not. Its not listed under special rules. They have the Brotherhood of Psyker rule, thats it.
Pink Horrors for example have EXACT the same wording (powerS and the bolded PSYKER when the chose their school of magic) but they can increase mastery level with number of horrors.

Then that's scary to face a unit of Pink Horrors, but it's not going to change my interpretation of the rules as written.


EDIT: New section added to the 1st Post review the new officer orders.

Charon
04-23-2014, 08:45 AM
How can you "interpret" the rules when the rule you want to warp around does not even exist?
They have no "psyker" special rule. It is not listed. All they have is "brooderhood of psykers" and how a "brooderhood of psykers" chose their powers/cast is covered in the rulebook.

Lord Asterion
04-23-2014, 08:55 AM
Yeah, sorry, this is a pretty clear case, the Unit of Wyrdvane has Brotherhood of Psykers, so the Unit is Mastery Level One and so can generate one power, the models in the unit aren't Psykers so individually can't generate powers.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:09 AM
Sorry fellas, but I'm sticking with this interpretation. And Charon I'm not warping around any rules - I'm reading exactly what's written.

Charon
04-23-2014, 09:11 AM
No. Srsly you dont.
Special rules: Brotherhood of Psykers. Thats what there is written.
You chose to ignore it and invoke a rule (Psyker) they dont have as special rule.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:21 AM
No. Srsly you dont.
Special rules: Brotherhood of Psykers. Thats what there is written.
You chose to ignore it and invoke a rule (Psyker) they dont have as special rule.

They are a unit of psykers that have the brotherhood of psykers special rule. You don't become something just because of a special rule. A special rule simply enhances what a unit can and cannot do. I'll go over this again.

Brotherhood of Psykers says:


"A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker. The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarifications: (1) The unit uses the Leadership of its character, if there is one (and he is alive), or the unit, if there isn't a character (or he is dead), for Psychic tests. The unit can never use the Leadership of an Independent Character for Psychic tests. (2) If the unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any other attack that specifically targets Psykers, it is resolved against the character, if there is one (and he is alive), or againsta random, non-character model in the unit, if there is no character (or he is dead).

What do we take from that?

Point One: The unit is collectively acting as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker.
Point Two: The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers.

Wyrdvane Psykers says:


that they "generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis disciplines."

That means that for each psyker that is in the unit of Wyrvance psykers, who are considered to be Psykers as seen in point two above, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.

Brotherhood of Psykers does not, I repeat, does not declare anything that says that multiple psykers within the same unit cannot have multiple powers.

Charon
04-23-2014, 09:39 AM
The UNIT follows all the normal rules for Psykers... not the individual models.
The entire unit (no matter if 5 or 500 models strong) is considered to be ONE lvl 1 PSYKER. The unit. Not every individual model.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:43 AM
The UNIT follows all the normal rules for Psykers... not the individual models.
The entire unit (no matter if 5 or 500 models strong) is considered to be ONE lvl 1 PSYKER. The unit. Not every individual model.

And if the Wyrdvane Psyker's unit profile had read "The wyrdvane psyker unit generates it's power from..." and not "Wyrdvance Psykers generate their powers from..." then I would agree with you. However, that is not the case.

And I rest my case.

Lord Asterion
04-23-2014, 09:45 AM
They are a unit of psykers that have the brotherhood of psykers special rule. You don't become something just because of a special rule. A special rule simply enhances what a unit can and cannot do. I'll go over this again.

Brotherhood of Psykers says:



What do we take from that?

Point One: The unit is collectively acting as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker.
Point Two: The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers.

Wyrdvane Psykers says:



That means that for each psyker that is in the unit of Wyrvance psykers, who are considered to be Psykers as seen in point two above, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.

Brotherhood of Psykers does not, I repeat, does not declare anything that says that multiple psykers within the same unit cannot have multiple powers.

It says their because they're potentially more than one units of many models that generates once of many possible powers.

You're really twisting this in a very weasely way.

Kelshin
04-23-2014, 09:50 AM
Point One: The unit is collectively acting as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker.
Point Two: The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers.

Wyrdvane Psykers says:



That means that for each psyker that is in the unit of Wyrvance psykers, who are considered to be Psykers as seen in point two above, each one can roll to get a different power. The only limitation is that, due to Brotherhood of Psykers, they act as a single unit in using that power. This means that even if you have a unit of five psykers with five different powers, only one of those five can be used by the unit each turn because they are - collectively - using the specified power.

Brotherhood of Psykers does not, I repeat, does not declare anything that says that multiple psykers within the same unit cannot have multiple powers.

You are shooting your own argument in the foot. they do indeed, collectively, act as a level 1 psyker. That means, all 5-10 guys, however many you have, altogether are a single level 1 psyker. Following the normal rules for them. Which means one power per mastery level for the unit, just like everything else in the game with that rule, because that is how you generate psychic powers. The Addition of a couple of plurals referring to a unit you can have multiples of in your list is hardly anything that can over ride all precedence and rules from the MRB. You are correct that BoP doesn't prevent multiple powers. Which is why Horrors at ML 3 get 3 powers.

With all due respect, this is coming across as an extremely thin grab at what really is a nonexistent abuse of rules. Somehow I don't think you just discovered a magical loophole that Daemon players collectively ignored for the last year or so based on an "s" behind Power. Astropaths say "generate their powers from" too, and they also can never have more than one. That's just how GW writes things.

*Edit* Matter of fact, nothing that I can think of written in this edition says "Generates their power." It is "powers" for everything, including stuff that can only be ML1. That is not anything you can even come close to standing on.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:51 AM
It says their because they're a unit of many models that generates once of many possible powers.

You're really twisting this in a very weasely way.

Am I the only one who paid attention to the grammar part of English class in school?

The unit composition, in the army list section, says "Composition: 5 Wyrdvance Psykers." That, coupled with the use of "Wyrdvance Psykers generate their powers from..." and the rule of BoP that a unit with that USR follow ALL the rules for Psykers, treats each model of the Wyrdvane Psyker unit as an individual psyker.


It's not as if I'm somehow hording this to myself here for my own advantage. As has been said by others, there are many units that apparently haven't been operating properly in regards to this rule. As has recently been revealed by the discussion in the Rules section regarding Ordnance and Leman Russ tanks' secondary weapons - we've just not thought it through clearly enough. The wording *really* matters. As I've said before, if this receives an FAQ then I will be happy to follow the dictates of that FAQ. Until then, this is how I interpret what has been written in the rules.

Charon
04-23-2014, 09:53 AM
And if the Wyrdvane Psyker's unit profile had read "The wyrdvane psyker unit generates it's power from..." and not "Wyrdvance Psykers generate their powers from..." then I would agree with you. However, that is not the case.

And I rest my case.

You can have more than one unit...


and the rule of BoP that a unit with that USR follow ALL the rules for Psykers, treats each model of the Wyrdvane Psyker unit as an individual psyker

The UNIT follows all the rules for psykers. One power per mastery level (the UNIT counts as having ML1), one warp charge per mastery level (the UNIT counts as having ML1), Psi Test,....
There is NO rule however which says every individual model is an individual psyker. The WHOLE UNIT is a SINGLE PSYKER thats what brotherhood of psykers is about.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:57 AM
You are shooting your own argument in the foot. they do indeed, collectively, act as a level 1 psyker. That means, all 5-10 guys, however many you have, altogether are a single level 1 psyker. Following the normal rules for them. Which means one power per mastery level for the unit, just like everything else in the game with that rule, because that is how you generate psychic powers. The Addition of a couple of plurals referring to a unit you can have multiples of in your list is hardly anything that can over ride all precedence and rules from the MRB. You are correct that BoP doesn't prevent multiple powers. Which is why Horrors at ML 3 get 3 powers.

With all due respect, this is coming across as an extremely thin grab at what really is a nonexistent abuse of rules. Somehow I don't think you just discovered a magical loophole that Daemon players collectively ignored for the last year or so based on an "s" behind Power. Astropaths say "generate their powers from" too, and they also can never have more than one. That's just how GW writes things.

No, not really. As BoP says, they use their powers collectively - but individually are still psykers, and are hence able to each know an individual power. Astropaths are a single psyker that can be taken as an upgrade for the Command Command Squad. If you were able to take multiple Astropaths within the same unit, then you would generate a different power for each and they would follow the same rules for Psykers as any other unit or model.

- - - Updated - - -


You can have more than one unit...

The rules as written in the codex are meant to clarify the rules for a specific unit. It is also written within the Force Organization Chart rules how many of a unit type (Troops, Elite, Fast Attack, etc) you can take. The fact that I can take three units of Wyrdvance Psykers has no bearing on this argument, since each is treated as a separate unit -- but they still have the same rules for each individual unit and psyker within said units.

Bigred
04-23-2014, 09:58 AM
Katharon,

Excellent article!

It has been promoted to a short series for the frontpage.

Enjoy the well-deserved internet fame :)

-L

Katharon
04-23-2014, 09:59 AM
Katharon,

Excellent article!

It has been promoted to a short series for the frontpage.

Enjoy the well-deserved internet fame :)

-L

I was a bit surprised by the front page post. I appreciate the notice and I hope it helps anyone who is either a veteran IG player or who is considering joining the ranks of the Emperor's Hammer.

Charon
04-23-2014, 10:09 AM
The rules as written in the codex are meant to clarify the rules for a specific unit. It is also written within the Force Organization Chart rules how many of a unit type (Troops, Elite, Fast Attack, etc) you can take. The fact that I can take three units of Wyrdvance Psykers has no bearing on this argument, since each is treated as a separate unit -- but they still have the same rules for each individual unit and psyker within said units.

Fire PrismS may take items from the Eldar Vehicle Equipment List. So i guess that means I can deploy them in Squadrons now as it is clearly Fire PrismS and not the singular and force organisation chart has no bearing?

Katharon
04-23-2014, 10:10 AM
Fire PrismS may take items from the Eldar Vehicle Equipment List. So i guess that means I can deploy them in Squadrons now as it is clearly Fire PrismS and not the singular and force organisation chart has no bearing?

Now you're just trolling Charon. Come on, you're better than that.

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 10:18 AM
Am I the only one who paid attention to the grammar part of English class in school?

The unit composition, in the army list section, says "Composition: 5 Wyrdvance Psykers." That, coupled with the use of "Wyrdvance Psykers generate their powers from..." and the rule of BoP that a unit with that USR follow ALL the rules for Psykers, treats each model of the Wyrdvane Psyker unit as an individual psyker.


It's not as if I'm somehow hording this to myself here for my own advantage. As has been said by others, there are many units that apparently haven't been operating properly in regards to this rule. As has recently been revealed by the discussion in the Rules section regarding Ordnance and Leman Russ tanks' secondary weapons - we've just not thought it through clearly enough. The wording *really* matters. As I've said before, if this receives an FAQ then I will be happy to follow the dictates of that FAQ. Until then, this is how I interpret what has been written in the rules.

Its not an issue of grammar, as has been pointed out to you by the multitude of other posters, they do not have the Psyker special rule, they have Brotherhood of Psykers, the number of powers chosen and Warp charge generated is tied to their Mastery Level not to a for your information blurb in the unit text about what psyhic powers this unit may take, a blurb all Psyker and Brotherhood of Psykers have in the new 6th edition format, Wyrdvane aren't doing anything new or special there.

Also Charon, Pink Horrors don't raise in mastery level based on the number of horrors, they simply generate more Warp Charges as a part of that special rule they have, a higher mastery level would permit them more power selections which they do not have.

- - - Updated - - -


No, not really. As BoP says, they use their powers collectively - but individually are still psykers, and are hence able to each know an individual power. Astropaths are a single psyker that can be taken as an upgrade for the Command Command Squad. If you were able to take multiple Astropaths within the same unit, then you would generate a different power for each and they would follow the same rules for Psykers as any other unit or model..

Astropaths also have the Psyker special rule so it is a moot example, you cannot hide the astropath out of LoS and use the Regiment standard bearer to target for his units Line of Sight.

FYI a Brotherhood of Psyker unit joined by an Independent Character Psyker unit also doesn't inherit thier Power or pass thier own powers to Brotherhood of Psykers either if thats where you are trying to go with this line of thought.

If you want to see the best example of Multi Psyker units then look to the Eldar codex and the Seer Council, that is a multi Psyker unit that chooses a power for each model as each one also have the Psyker not Brotherhood of Psyker special rule.

Charon
04-23-2014, 10:21 AM
Actually its the same thing you try to do.
You have a clearly formulated rule (Brotherhood of Psykers) and try to bend it because there is an excess "S" in the wording.

There is also an excess "S" in the wording for Fire Prisms, Nightspinners, Defilers, Land Raiders, Predators, Sorcerers...
Note that it may not work for Heldrakes as the wording on this is "The Heldrake..."
So do we start to interpret these units too? There seems to be a clear intend by GW to let them run as Squadrons... otherwise they would have resorted to the same wording as the Heldrake: "The Fireprism may...", "The Land Raider may..."

Really sorry to tell you that but you try to bend a solid rule without any other backup than an excess "S" which seems to be quite common in the wording of units to take into account that you can buy more than one of these units in your force.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 10:30 AM
Its not an issue of grammar, as has been pointed out to you by the multitude of other posters, they do not have the Psyker special rule, they have Brotherhood of Psykers, the number of powers chosen and Warp charge generated is tied to their Mastery Level not to a for your information blurb in the unit text about what psyhic powers this unit may take, a blurb all Psyker and Brotherhood of Psykers have in the new 6th edition format, Wyrdvane aren't doing anything new or special there.

Big Rule Book time.

Page 86, Psykers, paragraph three, first sentence: "Each Psyker knows one or more psychic powers, as detailed in their codex."

Page 86, Psykers, subheading - Mastery Levels, fourth paragraph, first sentence: "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Page 86, Psykers, subheading - Establishing Mastery Level, sixth paragraph, first sentence: "Unless otherwise stated, a Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to its Mastery level."

Page 34, Universal Special Rules, subheading - Brotherhood of Psykers, first two sentences: "A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker. The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers..."

Page 98 Astra Militarum Codex, unit composition, Army List Section, Wyrdvane Psykers: "Composition: 5 Wyrdvane Psykers."

Page 42 Astra Militarum Codex, unit description and rules, Wyrdvane Psykers: "Wyrdvane Psykers generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines."


All of this points towards what I've said: that each psyker within the Wyrdvane Psykers unit may generate a different power from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines; however they must follow the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers, which means that they use only one power each turn - expending a single Warp Charge across the entire unit. There is no part of the rules for Psykers, Brotherhood of Psykers, or the Astra Militarum codex that has anything against what I've been saying.




Also Pink Horrors don't raise in mastery level based on the number of horrors, they simply generate more Warp Charges as a part of that special rule they have, a higher mastery level would permit them more power selections which they do not have.

Woah...that's an awsome power to have - raising the number of Warp Charges they have. Sounds exactly like the Daemon Prince Be'Lakor 's power.

Tyrendian
04-23-2014, 10:44 AM
that each psyker within the Wyrdvane Psykers unit may generate a different power from the Biomanyc, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines;

as has been said, weird as it sounds, rules-wise there ARE no Psykers in a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers. None of the models has the Psyker rule, and thus they don't generate powers. The only thing that has the Psyker rule is the Brotherhood as a whole, thus it generates the appropriate amount of powers.

Anyways, to each their own interpretation! If your gaming buddies aggree with your assessment, fair enough - who are we to judge you! [oh wait we are the internet... scratch that point...]
I propose we let this issue rest (or maybe move it to another thread?) and let the man continue his brilliant work in the name of the Emperor.

Lord Asterion
04-23-2014, 10:44 AM
Honestly dispairing at the fact you can't work out the differnce between a model and a unit.

Charon
04-23-2014, 10:46 AM
There is. Because you keep ignoring


"A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker. The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers..."

So yes. The unit is a level 1 Psyker. The unit. Not the individual models. Thats Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts a a single Psyker. Not every model in the unit counts as a Psyker (they dont have the Psyker special rule. You are looking for Eldar Warlocks where each model is an individual psyker with the corresponding special rule).

So:
Page 86, Psykers, paragraph three, first sentence: "Each Psyker knows one or more psychic powers, as detailed in their codex." -> The UNIT (which is a level one psyker) knows one or more psychic powers, as detailed in their codex.
Page 86, Psykers, subheading - Mastery Levels, fourth paragraph, first sentence: "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." -> The UNITS psychic powers depends on its mastery level (which is one)
Page 86, Psykers, subheading - Establishing Mastery Level, sixth paragraph, first sentence: "Unless otherwise stated, a Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to its Mastery level." -> So the UNIT knows ONE psychic power as the UNIT is considered a ML1 psyker.
Page 98 Astra Militarum Codex, unit composition, Army List Section, Wyrdvane Psykers: "Composition: 5 Wyrdvane Psykers." -> Which form one UNIT which happens to be a brotherhood of psykers. They do not consist of 5 individual psykers (Eldar Warlocks would be 5 individual psykers)
Page 42 Astra Militarum Codex, unit description and rules, Wyrdvane Psykers: "Wyrdvane Psykers generate their powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines." -> Yes the UNIT generates (as you pointed out) ONE power from one of these disciplines.


All of this points towards what I've said: that each psyker within the Wyrdvane Psykers unit may generate a different power from the Biomanyc, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines; however they must follow the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers, which means that they use only one power each turn - expending a single Warp Charge across the entire unit. There is no part of the rules for Psykers, Brotherhood of Psykers, or the Astra Militarum codex that has anything against what I've been saying.

The misake here is that you still believe there are psykers in the unit. Fluffwise they are all psykers. Runlewise they are no pskyers. They dont have the psyker special rule (which does the things you want.. eldar warlocks again). They have the "Brotherhood of Psyker" special rule which makes the entire unit act like they were a single multi wounded psyker.

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 10:49 AM
None of what you are saying changes the fact that Wyrdvane has the Brotherhood of Psyker special rule not the Psyker special rule and the Brotherhood of Psyker special rule says "unit counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker" not each model counts as a Mastery level 1 Psyker,

Again if you want to see how a Multi Psyker Mastery level 1 unit works look at the Warlock Council in the Eldar codex, Brotherhood of Psykers does not work as you are advocating and the Pskyer blurb in the descriptive text is not a special rule its the same blurb all psykers and brotherhood psykers have about power selection options.

deinol
04-23-2014, 11:22 AM
It's down the grammar of the writing. If they FAQ this, then that's fine. But until then, if I field or am facing a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers, this is how I expect to use/face them.

You will be sorely disappointed. You may be able to convince a few of your friends with your argument, but the wider community and certainly no tournament will interpret it that way.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 11:50 AM
Honestly dispairing at the fact you can't work out the differnce between a model and a unit.

I'm honestly despairing at the lack of English grammar knowledge.

@Tyrendian: If you have a single model within a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers, that model is a Wyrdvane Psyker. Just because the other psykers in the unit are dead doesn't mean that the individual model stops being a psyker.

- - - Updated - - -


There is. Because you keep ignoring

The unit operates under the Brotherhood of Psykers. The UNIT has that rule. But each individual model in that unit is a Psyker. It says so, in bold letters, in their unit profile. It is a unit composed of psykers.

- - - Updated - - -


You will be sorely disappointed. You may be able to convince a few of your friends with your argument, but the wider community and certainly no tournament will interpret it that way.

Everything changes. Just like our view of the Ordnance and Leman Russ rules have changed.

Charon
04-23-2014, 11:54 AM
The unit operates under the Brotherhood of Psykers. The UNIT has that rule. But each individual model in that unit is a Psyker. It says so, in bold letters, in their unit profile. It is a unit composed of psykers.

It does not. Its not under special rules. Its not in the unit description.
Its the paragraph which powers the UNIT may pick, because the UNIT is indeed a psyker.


Just like our view of the Ordnance and Leman Russ rules have changed.

Also, not "our" view. YOUR view.


Just because the other psykers in the unit are dead doesn't mean that the individual model stops being a psyker.

He doesnt stop being a psyker. He wasnt wone in the first place. You cant stop beeing something you never were.
A single wyrdwhatever psyker is STILL a unit with the brotherhood of psykers special rule. Thats it. He doesnt magically change rules.

Katharon
04-23-2014, 11:57 AM
Just to reinforce what I mean, to be as clear as I can be, each of the rules for both Psyker and Brotherhood of Psyker only determine the use of psykic powers and the number of powers known. A unit of psykers operating under the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers are not disbarred by any rule from each individual (model) psyker knowing a different Psykic Power; BECAUSE they are all Level 1. The only limitation - for lack of a better word - is that since they operate as a Brotherhood, they're required to use one power at a time.

- - - Updated - - -


Also, not "our" view. YOUR view.

Have you not been keeping track of that conversation in the Rules section? It's been dealt with.

Charon
04-23-2014, 12:00 PM
A unit of psykers operating under the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers are not disbarred by any rule from each individual (model) psyker knowing a different Psykic Power

Its no unit of psykers. Thats where your misinterpretion starts. Its a unit with the rule "brotherhood of psykers", not a unit of "psykers"


Have you not been keeping track of that conversation in the Rules section? It's been dealt with.

It has not. Ppl just gave up on commenting on a case of grammar.

The Leman Russ discussion was (like this one currently is) like expalining the concept of evolution to a creationist.

deinol
04-23-2014, 12:10 PM
Everything changes. Just like our view of the Ordnance and Leman Russ rules have changed.

Wait, what changed about "our" view of Ordnance and Leman Russ?

Nabterayl
04-23-2014, 12:15 PM
Way to keep it classy, guys. So far we've insulted people's ability to understand their native language and science. What's next?

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 12:17 PM
The Leman Russ conversation wasn't that complicated some players advocate that a rule about firing ordinance weapons that falls under the subheading for vehicles moving and shooting applies to vehicles stationary and shooting as well and were determined to take the rule out of context to make it so.

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 12:29 PM
The unit operates under the Brotherhood of Psykers. The UNIT has that rule. But each individual model in that unit is a Psyker. It says so, in bold letters, in their unit profile. It is a unit composed of psykers.

Just wanna say I do appreciate the rest of your post Katharon, not trying to pick on ya here but this is the crux of what is wrong with your assumption here, Psyker followed by a selection of power selctions in the unit profile does not equal Psyker in the unit Special Rules.

Also as far as Leman Russ goes my opinion never changed since I had always been playing it the RAW way, including at local tournaments and GW store events, until a small minority here tried to say it applied to all shooting attacks.

Houghten
04-23-2014, 01:24 PM
I'm honestly despairing at the lack of English grammar knowledge.

I'm trying to remember the official name for the thing where you refer to a thing in the general sense by using the plural (e.g. "Wyrdvane Psykers generate their powers"). Perhaps you can tell me?

This Dave
04-23-2014, 01:31 PM
Way to keep it classy, guys. So far we've insulted people's ability to understand their native language and science. What's next?

Welcome to the Internet! :)

Nabterayl
04-23-2014, 01:53 PM
Welcome to the Internet! :)
Yeah, I know. But in all seriousness, BoLS is supposed to be better than "the Internet."

Power Klawz
04-23-2014, 02:32 PM
Wyrdvane Psykers use the brotherhood of psykers rule, they generate one power for the entire unit. Grammar has nothing to do with it and disparaging one parties lack thereof has nothing to do with proving a point that is patently incorrect.

Stop trying to be an internet bully dude.

Garradh
04-23-2014, 03:06 PM
I find it hilarious that you guys have spent 5 pages trying to change his mind. Let him be wrong.

Nabterayl
04-23-2014, 03:43 PM
Or take it to the rules forum, where these discussions belong.

nathaneal246
04-23-2014, 03:49 PM
I find it hilarious that you guys have spent 5 pages trying to change his mind. Let him be wrong.

+1

I also find myself thinking what Kath is saying is an advantage to all AM/IG players!

Also I was thinking of adding a unit of Bullgryns to my army! 6 of them 3 with the slab shields and the other 3 with the mace and brute shields! Is this a good idea or not?

Gleipnir
04-23-2014, 04:07 PM
+1

I also find myself thinking what Kath is saying is an advantage to all AM/IG players!

Also I was thinking of adding a unit of Bullgryns to my army! 6 of them 3 with the slab shields and the other 3 with the mace and brute shields! Is this a good idea or not?

I considered doing the same but only for the Boneead in the unit for challenge purposes, and keepiing the remaining Bullgryns with Slab shields to provide an additional cover advantage to units like Heavy Weapons and Command Squads in Chimeras.

If i wanted to field the Bullgryns for thier assault role I think i would just give the entire unit Brute shields and Power Mauls w/ a Ministorum Priest and possibly a Divination Primaris Psyker

The Emperor
04-23-2014, 05:37 PM
It's down the grammar of the writing. If they FAQ this, then that's fine. But until then, if I field or am facing a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers, this is how I expect to use/face them.

And if I face someone who tries that against me, I'll be picking up my miniatures and leaving, because I don't play against cheaters.

Katharon
04-24-2014, 12:25 AM
Just wanna say I do appreciate the rest of your post Katharon, not trying to pick on ya here but this is the crux of what is wrong with your assumption here, Psyker followed by a selection of power selctions in the unit profile does not equal Psyker in the unit Special Rules.

Also as far as Leman Russ goes my opinion never changed since I had always been playing it the RAW way, including at local tournaments and GW store events, until a small minority here tried to say it applied to all shooting attacks.

I know Gleipnir, and I appreciate the criticism. Truly. The only true way to operate as a community is to have open discourse - even if we might like to throw a few nasty words around whilst doing so.

My point about the Special rule, however, is that the only reason why Wyrdvane Psykers do not have "Psyker" special rule is because they already have "Brotherhood of Psykers". I don't know how more clear I can be in trying to make that point...I feel kind of lost.

Charon
04-24-2014, 01:07 AM
My point about the Special rule, however, is that the only reason why Wyrdvane Psykers do not have "Psyker" special rule is because they already have "Brotherhood of Psykers". I don't know how more clear I can be in trying to make that point...I feel kind of lost.

We understood that point. Its just that "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psyker" are two DIFFERENT rules.
"Brotherhood" makes the entire unit act like a single ML1 Psyker.
"Psyker" makes an individual model a Psyker.
"Brooderhood" does not grant "Psyker" to individual models, thats what "Psyker" is for.

Katharon
04-24-2014, 01:35 AM
We understood that point. Its just that "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psyker" are two DIFFERENT rules.
"Brotherhood" makes the entire unit act like a single ML1 Psyker.
"Psyker" makes an individual model a Psyker.
"Brooderhood" does not grant "Psyker" to individual models, thats what "Psyker" is for.

All Brotherhood of Psykers says is that the unit collectively counts as a Level 1 Psyker, but "follows all the normal rules for Psykers." I again stress this point. Both BoP and Psyker USRs govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model. If I have five Wyrdvane Psykers and four die, the fifth does not stop being a Psyker simply because he is now alone and no longer part of a living brotherhood. He/She is in their own right a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that would, if the other members of his/her unit were alive, operate according to BoP (and still do even with the other four are dead).

Charon
04-24-2014, 02:06 AM
Ok. One last try.

All Brotherhood of Psykers says is that the unit collectively counts as a Level 1 Psyker
correct.

but "follows all the normal rules for Psykers.
Also correct. The unit (which, as you correctly stated, counts as Lvl 1 Psyker) follows the normal rules for Psykers. So. The UNIT generates 1 Warpcharge, generates 1 Power, is subject to perils of the warp and has to make psychic tests.

Both BoP and Psyker USRs govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model.

No, they dont.
BoP governs the use and number of powers of an ENTIRE UNIT (you even wrote UNIT every time, why you keep changing the word "unit" to "model" every time?)
Psyker govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model.
BoP does nothing less than making the entire UNIT for psy purposes act like A SINGLE MULTI WOUNDED MODEL.


If I have five Wyrdvane Psykers and four die, the fifth does not stop being a Psyker simply because he is now alone and no longer part of a living brotherhood.
"Brotherhood of Psykers" does not have a quantity regulation. A single model can be a "Brotherhood of Psykers" as well as 100 can. You dont lose the BOP USR just because you are down to one model. You dont magically change rules. He is still (as and single model unit ingame) a UNIT, and as such has according to BOP rules a ML of 1 and 1 power per ML.


He/She is in their own right a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that would, if the other members of his/her unit were alive, operate according to BoP (and still do even with the other four are dead).

He is no Mastery Level 1 Psyker. He never was. The unit (which still exists as he is still alive) still has the BOP USR and operates as a ML1 psyker, no matter if he/she is the only survivor - the UNIT is still alive.

Katharon
04-24-2014, 02:53 AM
You make the mistake at your sixth sentence. In the unit description, where it says what power disciplines the Wyrdvane Psykers generate their powers, the language is pluralistic and indicates that each individual psyker/model in the unit generate an individual power.


"Brotherhood of Psykers" does not have a quantity regulation.

Indeed, it doesn't. Because each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

I implore you to keep an open mind and re-read the rules for Psyker and Brotherhood of Psykers. In no case within the language there written is there a contradiction in what I have been saying this entire time.

Houghten
04-24-2014, 03:10 AM
each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

I can think of at least one situation where that is emphatically not the case: where Dark Eldar Haemonculi activate a Crucible of Malediction, forcing every psyker in range to pass a Leadership test or be removed from play. Brotherhoods of Psykers only lose a single model if they fail the test, and the unit only takes a single test.

Charon
04-24-2014, 03:14 AM
And the cycle starts anew. I already pointed out that pluralistic use covers multiple choices of the same unit, as in Fire PrismS, DefilerS,...
I also pointed out that this is the standard rule text for every Psyker unit in the game. Even ML1 Warlock "generates his powerS" (do you suggest he has more than one?).
Their powers refers to them als collective, not as a single Model. In which case they use (as pointed out above) "A Wyrdvane Psyker generate his powers...."

Oh believe me I keep an open mind. But you keep contradicting yourself by substituting "unit" and "model" when it seem to fit your argument.
Even the "case of grammar" contradicts you as they use a very different wording when refering to Models with powers (even if they are organised in a big unit of the same models) or to UNITS with powers.

Your "idea" even disrupts most of the powers/actions heavily.
Example: Perils of the Warp hits your 15 spells unit while casting "Iron Arm". Does the Spellcaster die? Nope. The one with "Doom" dies because its random.
Example: You cast "Iron Arm" again. It reads "the Psyker". Who did cast it now as you treat them all as individual Psykers?

Brotherhood has a solution for all of this. In the first case you remove one model, does not change the units behaviour at all. In case 2 THE ENTIRE UNIT gets "Iron Arm" as the ENTIRE UNIT is "the psyker".


Indeed, it doesn't. Because each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

And this is the point where the discussion ends because you just keep on making up things. BoP does non of the things you write here. It never mentions SINGLE/INDIVIUAL ODELS with a single line. The only thing it does (and mentions) is letting the whole unit act like a single lvl 1 psyker. Not 10 single lvl 1 psykers.

The Emperor
04-24-2014, 04:22 AM
Let's put aside rules interpretations for a moment here.

Does anyone really believe that, when writing the codex, GW intended for each individual Wyrdvane Psyker to each have a separate psychic power? Does anyone really think GW actually wants that? If you're being honest with yourself, then the only answer you can put to that question is "No", in which case this whole discussion is immaterial.

Clockwork
04-24-2014, 07:16 AM
I'm curious how the idea the that each model is an individual psyker is suddenly a valid interpretation when we already have other Brotherhood of Psyker units that are clearly not (Daemons for instance).

I mean the first sentence says all we need to know about power generation should work:

A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker.
The entire unit is a single psyker. Not made of individual psykers who roll for different powers, just a single psyker. As such they get 1 power and that's it.

Seriously when you have multiple people telling you that your twisting the wording of the rules and reading it wrong, well, you're probably wrong.

EDIT:

Let's put aside rules interpretations for a moment here.

Does anyone really believe that, when writing the codex, GW intended for each individual Wyrdvane Psyker to each have a separate psychic power? Does anyone really think GW actually wants that? If you're being honest with yourself, then the only answer you can put to that question is "No", in which case this whole discussion is immaterial.

Not to mention the asinine levels of book keeping to do something like keeping track of who has what powers and making sure you don't use powers you lose when someone dies or their head pops doesn't really fit with GW's method of rules writing (though Daemons does come close).

This Dave
04-24-2014, 07:37 AM
Or for another way to look at it do you say "The United States is a country" or "The United States are a country"? Unless you're from before 1865 you say "is" as it's considered a single entity despite being made up of a bunch of different things. This is the difference between a Brotherhood of Psykers, which is a bunch of models acting as a single Psyker, and a Psyker, which is a single model acting as a single Psyker.

No matter how it's read, anything with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule is treated as a single Psyker and so follows all the rules for that.

Katharon
04-24-2014, 08:47 AM
I give up. I still think that my interpretation is far more interesting however.

Clockwork
04-24-2014, 09:08 AM
I give up. I still think that my interpretation is far more interesting however.

"Interesting" does not mean "correct" however.

The Emperor
04-24-2014, 11:06 AM
Not to mention the asinine levels of book keeping to do something like keeping track of who has what powers and making sure you don't use powers you lose when someone dies or their head pops doesn't really fit with GW's method of rules writing (though Daemons does come close).

Yeah, the bookkeeping and keeping track of which psyker has which power would be ridiculous. And if GW really intended for the Wyrdvane Psykers to each have their own individual power, and be the exception to the usual Brotherhood of Psyker rules, then they damn well would've made that explicit in the rules. They would've outright stated that they were an exception to the rules, that each member of the unit gets his own psychic power, and that it's important to keep track of which psyker has which power, but they did no such thing. The only thing we have that suggests otherwise is one poster who doesn't understand syntax and bases his rules judgments on what he thinks is interesting over what's correct.

Gleipnir
04-24-2014, 12:01 PM
Probably better to move to a different topic of discussion. I believe the expression is beating a dead horse.

Garradh
04-24-2014, 12:55 PM
I believe the expression is beating a dead horse.

Horse wouldn't last long against a S7 power maul. So here's the question - power mauls or frag bomb launchers? What's your take, friends?

Gleipnir
04-24-2014, 01:15 PM
Depends on how you are using your Bullgryns, if you are holding them back as close melee support I prefer the slab shields to provide additional cover to vehicles and command or heavy weapons. Remember when drawing Line of Sight with Vehicles you use the weapon rather than the base to determine LoS.(Important way to negate the penalty of firing thru your own slab shields, since the enemy doesn't draw line of sight to shoot back to your weapons)

If you are going for an assault unit go with all brute shields and mauls and let em thrash charge away, preferably with a Ministorium Priest urging them on with Zealot and War Hymns.

Learn2Eel
04-24-2014, 10:31 PM
I know Gleipnir, and I appreciate the criticism. Truly. The only true way to operate as a community is to have open discourse - even if we might like to throw a few nasty words around whilst doing so.

My point about the Special rule, however, is that the only reason why Wyrdvane Psykers do not have "Psyker" special rule is because they already have "Brotherhood of Psykers". I don't know how more clear I can be in trying to make that point...I feel kind of lost.


I'm going to throw a little extra in for those still unclear on the Wyrdvane Psyker issue. The point made that Wyrdvane Psykers don't have the Psyker special rule but only the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule in an attempt to side with the thinking that each individual model gets a power doesn't line up with my Chaos Daemon codex. It quite clearly says Pink Horrors have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule and not the Psyker special rule. This is the exact same situation here, and aside from a tiny bit of confusion with them being the first unit of that kind in a 6th Edition codex, everyone is clear that Horrors only ever generate the one power.

Wrydvane Psykers would be awesome if every model could generate a psychic power, but that is unfortunately - and most definitely - not the case.

Katharon
04-25-2014, 01:44 AM
I still just sad that taking a Tank Commander doesn't make Leman Russ Battle Tanks a Troop Choice (but just one that isn't able to score). But then I suppose the guys at Forgeworld and the writers of IA would throw a fit.

The Emperor
04-25-2014, 02:21 AM
Yeah, it's a real shame that the Tank Commander didn't have an option for altering the Force Organization Chart so that Leman Russ tanks could count as Troops, the same way that Spiritseers move Wraithguard/Wraithblades from Elites to Troops or Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters on Bikes move 5+ man Bike Squads from Fast Attack to Troops. I would've loved to have been able to take an armored company without a single infantryman straight out of the new codex rather than having to rely on a Forge World list.

Learn2Eel
04-25-2014, 04:20 AM
To be fair, I think Games Workshop doesn't want to steal Forge World's thunder too much. After all, making Assault Marines Troops choices is still the sole domain of Forge World - at least where the stock Space Marine codex is concerned anyway (Raven Guard).

Good early impressions by the way Katharon! I've had a quick read of the codex and so I don't know everything, but from what I've seen the Wyvern is something special.

MajorWesJanson
04-25-2014, 07:06 AM
Yeah, it's a real shame that the Tank Commander didn't have an option for altering the Force Organization Chart so that Leman Russ tanks could count as Troops, the same way that Spiritseers move Wraithguard/Wraithblades from Elites to Troops or Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters on Bikes move 5+ man Bike Squads from Fast Attack to Troops. I would've loved to have been able to take an armored company without a single infantryman straight out of the new codex rather than having to rely on a Forge World list.

People already complain about Knight only lists. Making a list that is comprised entirely of Leman Russ tanks may be exciting for one player, but not the other.

Katharon
04-25-2014, 07:51 AM
@Learn2Eel

Thanks man. I'm personally still iffy on the Wyvern. Mostly because it just doesn't have a high enough strength -- even though it does have the "Shred" USR. It still can't hurt a lot of stuff and is absolute crap against vehicles (a perfect example being that it can't even scratch the paint of a Rhino...come on...).

So yeah...I'll have to wait and see how it pans out. Sometimes multiple usage and experience with a new unit will result in it become more viable later on...but we'll see.

Mr Mystery
04-25-2014, 08:03 AM
Wyvern is awesome. Believe me!

The sheer amount of hits it can cause, combined with re-rolling failed to wounds heavily mitigates it's average strength. And quite often, troops really hugging cover are doing so in lieu of decent armour, so ignoring that cover helps a lot.

Katharon
04-25-2014, 08:05 AM
Wyvern is awesome. Believe me!

The sheer amount of hits it can cause, combined with re-rolling failed to wounds heavily mitigates it's average strength. And quite often, troops really hugging cover are doing so in lieu of decent armour, so ignoring that cover helps a lot.


Yeah...but it's only AP6...only Ork Boyz and 'Gaunts might have something to be afraid of there.

Charon
04-25-2014, 08:52 AM
Doesnt matter.
The sheer amount of templates makes up for the AP6. They are pretty cheap too.
Ignore cover basically helps against anything up to a 5+ save.
3 Wyvern come basically at the same cost as 1 LR Executioner with plasma cannons. Both will do roughly the same job (a little shifted between armor types)

This Dave
04-25-2014, 08:55 AM
I still just sad that taking a Tank Commander doesn't make Leman Russ Battle Tanks a Troop Choice (but just one that isn't able to score). But then I suppose the guys at Forgeworld and the writers of IA would throw a fit.

I'm with you there. But the whole non-scoring issue can really be a pain.

Mr Mystery
04-25-2014, 08:58 AM
Doesnt matter.
The sheer amount of templates makes up for the AP6. They are pretty cheap too.
Ignore cover basically helps against anything up to a 5+ save.
3 Wyvern come basically at the same cost as 1 LR Executioner with plasma cannons. Both will do roughly the same job (a little shifted between armor types)

Yup.

I think it's a really nicely pitched entry.

Basilisk is essentially preferable against enemies with decent armour saves, as often their cover save won't be as good as their armour.

Wyvern is preferable against anything up to a 4+ armour save because of it's reliable wounding, and total ignoring of cover.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's all about forcing your opponent to use the worst available save.

Plus, dropping cover ignoring weapons on Snipers is great for IG, as it helps keep your officers and commisars alive, and thus your troops punching above their weight.

Downside? I'd always, always take three. One isn't enough, and if you're going two, you might as well go three :)

Defenestratus
04-25-2014, 11:23 AM
I was on the receiving end of a Wyvern battery yesterday and it was not pleasant.

Made 5 wraithguard disappear. I was not pleased.

Charon
04-25-2014, 12:47 PM
People already complain about Knight only lists. Making a list that is comprised entirely of Leman Russ tanks may be exciting for one player, but not the other.

I dont see them at the same level as a pure knight army. Sure there is more Ordnance going on but less invul saves, less movement and you can cripple/stun them without reducing them to zero hullpoints.
You can even try to melee them as you hit their reararmor and dont have to deal with stomps and D.
Oh and they dont kill the unit which killed them in a D explosion too :D

DarkLink
04-25-2014, 01:58 PM
Yeah...but it's only AP6...only Ork Boyz and 'Gaunts might have something to be afraid of there.

It causes a stupid number of wounds for a pittance. If it was ap3, it would basically auto remove any Marine unit it hit. As it is, it will make its points back very fast.

Charon
04-25-2014, 02:04 PM
And dont forget there is always the possibility of a psyker with "Misfortune"

Katharon
04-25-2014, 06:38 PM
People already complain about Knight only lists. Making a list that is comprised entirely of Leman Russ tanks may be exciting for one player, but not the other.

Forgeworld already has such an army list, for an all-tank army. However they make it clear that you can never claim objectives with such an army. I'd rather face a horde of Leman Russ tanks than a Knight army -- but that's just because I have more experience commanding and fighting against such armies. Also, no D-weapons...that's nice to not face.

TheGreatFireDrake
04-27-2014, 11:00 AM
Cool read, can’t wait to get a game in with the new guard.

John Bower
04-28-2014, 04:57 AM
If anything my opinion on 'Tank Commander' is that he should have been a 'single' tank, and able to give his orders to a whole company of tanks not just his own squadron. That would have fit the fluff of the 'Emperor's Fist' company.

This Dave
04-28-2014, 08:45 AM
If anything my opinion on 'Tank Commander' is that he should have been a 'single' tank, and able to give his orders to a whole company of tanks not just his own squadron. That would have fit the fluff of the 'Emperor's Fist' company.

This. Especially as an "official" tank company is 9 Leman Russ hulls and a lone command LR. You can't make that with this setup.

I'm hoping FW updates their AC list with the new tank costs though.

Katharon
04-28-2014, 09:02 AM
I'm hoping FW updates their AC list with the new tank costs though.

That would be nice...

deinol
04-28-2014, 11:09 AM
I'm hoping FW updates their AC list with the new tank costs though.

Isn't that trivially easy to do yourself?

This Dave
04-28-2014, 12:16 PM
Isn't that trivially easy to do yourself?

Yeah but if I or another player does it it's not an "official" list. Many people already flip out over Forge World lists, I can imagine their heads actually exploding if you show up with one where the numbers don't match the book.

John Bower
04-28-2014, 03:52 PM
I have to say that now I've played 2 games using the new guard, it's a good dex, not much changed really for my army to be honest except a few slightly lower costs, but made up for elsewhere. I love that you don't 'have' to shoot somebody now if a commissar is attached, so my dude may stop being proxied as a Lord Commissar and go over to being a normal bod, attached to one of my infantry squads, probly the heavy weapons where he will be useful for making sure 'orders' go through.

Caitsidhe
04-28-2014, 05:53 PM
So I haven't seen the book firsthand yet, but a friend of mine was keen on putting the new Priests (since they are characters according to him) with Battle Brothers Space Marine units. In short, he wants to build super Terminator units with 2+/3+ whose missed saves get another roll. Is this possible by the rules?

This Dave
04-28-2014, 06:10 PM
So I haven't seen the book firsthand yet, but a friend of mine was keen on putting the new Priests (since they are characters according to him) with Battle Brothers Space Marine units. In short, he wants to build super Terminator units with 2+/3+ whose missed saves get another roll. Is this possible by the rules?

It is possible as the Priests are ICs but it's kind of limited. The War Hymn ability Is usable only in assaults and only if the Priest makes a 7 or less roll. Not an awful plan but not a war winning one by any means. Just pound them at range and the Priest is nullified.

Katharon
04-28-2014, 07:10 PM
It is possible as the Priests are ICs but it's kind of limited. The War Hymn ability Is usable only in assaults and only if the Priest makes a 7 or less roll. Not an awful plan but not a war winning one by any means. Just pound them at range and the Priest is nullified.

The fact that Battle Brothers cannot ride in each others transports means that he can't pack a priest inside of a seven-man Terminator Assault Squad and a Land Raider. He has to walk. That can significantly increase your chances of sniping him off. I'd say that you're not likely to get into too many problems - although that is a hefty combination. But no worse than what I've already seen happen elsewhere with BB-combinations.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah but if I or another player does it it's not an "official" list. Many people already flip out over Forge World lists, I can imagine their heads actually exploding if you show up with one where the numbers don't match the book.

FW might even just keep the old costs, just to show how much more expensive it is to take an Armored Company...those frakkers (as Gaunt would say).

This Dave
04-29-2014, 08:25 AM
The fact that Battle Brothers cannot ride in each others transports means that he can't pack a priest inside of a seven-man Terminator Assault Squad and a Land Raider. He has to walk. That can significantly increase your chances of sniping him off. I'd say that you're not likely to get into too many problems - although that is a hefty combination. But no worse than what I've already seen happen elsewhere with BB-combinations.

He would get 2+ Look Out Sir saves from most sniping attempts, though if the unit is getting hit by Lascannons even the Terminators won't be much help.

Though if I saw something like this walking across the table I think my response would be to give a 50 man platoon the Take Aim order, put all the hits on the Priest, the look at the player and ask "where is your Emperor now?" :)

DarkLink
04-29-2014, 01:03 PM
Terminators on foot just get shot to death.

Harley
04-29-2014, 01:23 PM
Or have them walk up the field under 6 Void Shields. Anything that will pop 6 AV12 bubbles probably would have eventually taken out their Landraider anyways, and they can come back... Just a thought...

This Dave
04-29-2014, 04:48 PM
Or have them walk up the field under 6 Void Shields. Anything that will pop 6 AV12 bubbles probably would have eventually taken out their Landraider anyways, and they can come back... Just a thought...

How are you getting 6 Void Shields?

Gleipnir
04-29-2014, 05:36 PM
The rerollable saves of War Hymns is part of the priest's unit being in assault, so until they are in close combat they would lack that.

Captain Bubonicus
05-02-2014, 09:22 AM
It is possible as the Priests are ICs but it's kind of limited. The War Hymn ability Is usable only in assaults and only if the Priest makes a 7 or less roll. Not an awful plan but not a war winning one by any means. Just pound them at range and the Priest is nullified.

It's a normal leadership test, so the priest could use any higher leadership in the squad he was joined to, couldn't he?