Feel I have to/Wish I could...

[YorkNecromancer]

Simple enough:

For your armies which unit do you dislike but feel you have to include because of competitiveness, and which do you wish you could, but leave out because it's just a waste of points?

Auto-includes I personally dislike are Tactical Squads (I think entirely because familiarity breeds contempt).

Stuff I leave out but wish I could use tended to be Honour Guard squads and Ogryns (although the times they are a'changin'...). Grotesques are still a bit on the weak side. Well, not weak so much as overcosted. Servitors too.

[ElectricPaladin]

I used to dislike including tactical squads and death company in my Blood Angels army, but I've gotten over it. The former seemed bland and generic, but then I traded away my Exorcists, and now I don't care so much, and actually it's kind of fun to mix "codex standard" and "balls out assault!" in my lists. The latter... it used to bother me to pay for a fixed number of death company marines, because isn't the Black Rage an unreliable phenomenon? I missed out on the days of random death company generation - before my time - and kind of hope we go back to that in the next 'dex. Like I said, though, I'm pretty much over it on both counts.

As far as units I wish I could include, but don't, it's all about the sanguinary guard. They're so cool! The models, the background, they're awesome! They're also... not really good enough to beat out terminators :(.

[Chaoschrist]

I wish Warp talons would be worth it for my Chaos marine army.

I like the models but the pointscost cannot make me consider them. And for some effectiveness, add in a mark and they're even more expensive. Chances are they'll be wittled down by overwatch and their overall way for delivery (either moving as jump infantry or have them sit around for a turn after deepstriking) just makes them not worth it. There are some other fast attack slots they have to compete with as well *cough*heldrake*cough*.

[Tyrendian]

Eldar HQs, mainly... hard to leave the house without a Farseer, and I've grown very fond of my Solitarch (plus I tend to use quite a lot of reserves so his ability to modify rolls is very useful). But that's the HQ slots gone - and I'd love to include my Avatar, Illyrith and/or a Spiritseer(only way I'll ever use Wraithfantry is as troops - just too expensive otherwise because a WS is more or less required as well to get them anywhere without being shot to bits) from time to time... gotta get my mates to play 2000pts+ for double ForceOrg I guess...

[Sly]

It's not so much in-codex, but I feel that with most of the older Codices that no longer match up in firepower (BA, SW, CSM), I have to either add in an allied Tau squad with Broadsides, or a SM squad with Centurions, in order to have a source of serious firepower. The newer Codices pretty much all have some source of really efficient firepower, and while overall the older Codices are fine, they lack that high-efficiency firepower that frees up points.

What I wish I could include competitively is Helbrutes, though the Helcult formation may change that.

[Denzark]

Auto includes for me is a 30 man cultist blob for my Chaos with a fearless Warlord. I would prefer to have more MEQ but feh. I dislike not having much variation in fast attack competitively - ie what the hell is as good as a Drake?

[Mr.Pickelz]

I hate having to include Lootas, no matter what the theme of the list is (IE Speed Freakz) I always have to include a squad or two of lootas as a long range firepower requirement for the local meta. :(

[Darren Richardson]

Now for me it's not a case of what I must take but what I dislike, I really hate those centurions, seriously they just look wrong, the designer in White Dwarf when asked about where the space marine piloting them puts his arms lazly replied they are crossed in fornt of them....

Seriously WTF was he thinking of, in real life nobody could keep their arms crossed for the period of time they would have to be when in one of those suits, to me it just reaked of sloppy design....

So because of that poor choice while designing them I just won't buy that model at all.

[Charon]

I hate the Helturkey with passion but sadly its an auto-include.
I really would like to make Thousand Sons or Dark Apostles work...

Farseer is also an auto include for me which feels just overused but he is so much better than all other HQs.
Vypers are always tempting but sadly way too fragile and too expensive.

Dark Eldar is a hard one as there are only a few units that actually work. I think I dont have an auto include which feels annoying (maybe ravagers as they are far superior in the heavy support slot) but there are plenty of models I would love to get working... like Mandrakes.

[Dave Mcturk]

oh my the list is endless.

a sign of excellent internal balancing and extensive play-testing as well as precision laser guided rules writing with absolutely no interest in bottom line.:rolleyes:

[Tyrendian]

Vypers are always tempting but sadly way too fragile and too expensive.


right that's another one - Vypers are a very strong case of why the heck would you ever... first, there's War Walkers, with more firepower (probably...) and at least as good survivability, and mobility isn't bad either (with Battle Focus immensely helping the latter two). And it gets even more ridiculous when you look at Hornets...

[Crydon Games]

Not sure if I am following the format completely, but I wish I did not feel I had to take the super "star" type units that seem to dominate 6th edition. I wish I could just field 6 tactical squads and 3 squads of devastators/jump marines w/out criticism. On paper, it looks like spam, but is exceptionally fluffy for vanilla marines and makes so much logistical sense. Flamer/Rocket launcher tac marines is what the bulk of a marine army (per codex Astartes) should be. You just catch so much hell for it online.

[ElectricPaladin]

For my Sisters of Battle...

I literally have to field battle sister squads because we have no other Troops options. I don't mind that much, because battle sister squads are pretty good, but I wish I had some options.

I wish I could field seraphim, but they don't seem good enough (and the models are expensive and I don't have any).

[CrimsonTurkey]

For my Nids, I really, really wish that warriors were better. They're not bad, but they aren't worth their points.
The Tervigon is less of an auto-include than it used to be, but I'm still not a fan. A frenzied Tervigon that pooped hormagaunts would be awesome though.

For the Grey Knights, I just wish I could make a Paladin army without Draigo.

[completeHook]

The new IG codex makes it worth while to me field one of my favourite mini's, it's the one in the centre.

Got it the UK Golden Daemon in about '94, it's from the Skullz AdMech collection.


8361


Thanks to solegends.com (http://www.solegends.com/citrare/citadeptmech.htm) for the image.

[DrBored]

I dislike having to take...
-Heldrakes, Plague Marines, Cultists, Daemon Princes, Obliterators...

And I wish I could take...
-Thousand Sons, Possessed, Warp Talons, Chaos Marines, Defilers...

[DrLove42]

Wish I could use;

Possessed and Mutilators. And the Dark Eldar codex (seriously, an army that relies on cover in addition that everyone has ignore cover?)

Hate that I use;

Wave Serpents. Now they're spammy awesome guns not transports.
Buffamnder (Tau Commander with no guns, but the ignore cover upgrade and Engram chip)

[Power Klawz]

I will preface this by saying that I take whatever I feel like which is usually what I think looks coolest or fits with my army's theme, but in the spirit of the thread I'll say what units I feel are most powerful and which units I feel aren't powerful enough.

Orks

Powerful or "must include" units.

Lootas: They are great for a lot of reason, most of which everyone should know by now. I don't think they really fit with say, a goff or especially snakebite sort of list but if you don't take at least one big unit of these guys you're really shooting yourself in the foot. There's no subsitute for credible ranged threat in the rest of the army really.

Shoota Boyz: Man, it would be nice if I could legitimately field some slugga boyz once in a while and not feel like I've gimped myself for flavor's sake.

Underpowered units

Flash Gitz: I'm pretty sure the majority of ork players are hoping that these guys are made even remotely playable in the 6th edition update. Right now they basically pay a lot of points to get shot at.

Really that's the only ork unit I can think of that's completely pants on head awful. Tank bustas could probably use a buff too, maybe some way to make their rokkit launchas assault 2 at the cost of maybe gets hot.

Chaos Space Marines

The standard units really, Drakes, Obliterators (especially the current, hideous models) Cultists and Nurgle Marks are probably too good in comparison to the alternatives.

Likewise the units I'd love to be better are Warp Claws (seriously, just give them assault grenades and call the job a good one) Thousand Sons (a straight points decrease might help, making the aspiring sorcerer optional might also be good, giving them some sort of weapon option, even heavy bolters. Or maybe making their shots ap2 even, something to justify their existence.) Berserkers (just because I really feel like they should be the pinnacle of close combat units and they don't even have access to power weapons.) Mutilators (I don't know, give them fleet somehow? Maybe a bigger max squad size.) Land Raiders (can we get one variant, just one?) Helbrutes (the random chart is unnecessary, just make it a straight rage buff on a certain roll and get rid of the restrictive results.) Possessed (just decrease the cost a bit really, you could even nerf their strength back down to 4 as a tradeoff as long as they keep furious charge.) Chosen (seriously, can we get fearless? I don't think Chaos need fearless on every unit mind you, but I think chosen at least deserve an option that can't be sniped out of the unit on a lucky roll.)

[Dave Mcturk]

"Orks

Powerful or "must include" units.

Lootas: They are great for a lot of reason, most of which everyone should know by now. I don't think they really fit with say, a goff or especially snakebite sort of list but if you don't take at least one big unit of these guys you're really shooting yourself in the foot. There's no subsitute for credible ranged threat in the rest of the army really.

Shoota Boyz: Man, it would be nice if I could legitimately field some slugga boyz once in a while and not feel like I've gimped myself for flavor's sake.

Underpowered units

Flash Gitz: I'm pretty sure the majority of ork players are hoping that these guys are made even remotely playable in the 6th edition update. Right now they basically pay a lot of points to get shot at.

Really that's the only ork unit I can think of that's completely pants on head awful. Tank bustas could probably use a buff too, maybe some way to make their rokkit launchas assault 2 at the cost of maybe gets hot. " quote from above poster ^.

the removal of a pretty much universal 4+ cover save made a hole in the ork codex that the new one [!?] might fix: although other codexes suffer the same problem, there is lots of AP 2-3-4 shooting out there now and with overwatch and 'random charge' the 30 orc blob is no longer reliably getting into melee.

the opportunity to 'buy' looted armour for some or all ork units would be great; cyborg armour at 5 pts or heavy at 4pts [on 1 unit only] is not enough to balance out the 6th firepower. as the above poster points out tankbustas are about 'busted' with only a 6+ armour save.

imo though the most useless units in the ork codex [due to 6th] are trukks and looted waggons. :rolleyes:

[Cactus]

Not sure if I am following the format completely, but I wish I did not feel I had to take the super "star" type units that seem to dominate 6th edition. I wish I could just field 6 tactical squads and 3 squads of devastators/jump marines w/out criticism. On paper, it looks like spam, but is exceptionally fluffy for vanilla marines and makes so much logistical sense. Flamer/Rocket launcher tac marines is what the bulk of a marine army (per codex Astartes) should be. You just catch so much hell for it online.

Agreed; I think there should be a higher "Troop" requirement. I know most people don't like playing with pawns and would rather have queens, bishops, knights and rooks.

[eldargal]

Feel I have to:
Farseer, it would be nice to be able to run an army that doesn't rely heavily on psychic powers.

Wish I could:
Howling Banshees. I love them, they are the worst unit in the codex.

[YorkNecromancer]

Howling Banshees. I love them, they are the worst unit in the codex.

I was wondering how plausible it would be to pair them up with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher equipped DE character; a Succubus say, or Archon, in order ot mitigate the HB's only real issue which is the lack of Assault Grenades. You could run a very small, fluffy DE allies section; a single squad of Wychs, who are your 'Banshees in training', or possibly convert some Storm Guardians to be 'retired Banshees' who use the Wych statline but not the esoteric weaponry to show they're Eldar really (ignoring the Splinter Pistols, obviously). Then just have the DE HQ as your 'Banshee Exarch'.

Essentially, convert your DE to look Eldar, and just use the rules.

Would that not work?

[Gleipnir]

Sadly the penalty for charging thru difficult terrain is applied model by model so can't fix what hurts their viability. Little too overpriced in comparison to better options.

[Erik Setzer]

Shoota Boyz and Lootas. It's not that I dislike them particularly, it's that an Ork army trying to be an assault army isn't competitive right now thanks to a combination of the current codex and 6th edition being assault unfriendly. My preference is to get in close and bash things, but you can't do that so well at the moment.

[Eldar_Atog]

For my Chaos, I wish I could replace sergeants with aspiring sorcerors since I play Thousand Sons/Tzeentch lists.

I feel like I'm forced into taking either flyers or obliterators. The obliterator models just don't match the rest of my army since they are the only non demon/demon engine models that have any skin showing. Everything else is modeled as if it's an empty suit of army.

[Archon Charybdis]

I was wondering how plausible it would be to pair them up with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher equipped DE character; a Succubus say, or Archon, in order ot mitigate the HB's only real issue which is the lack of Assault Grenades.

Awesome idea and theme, the problem isn't just the lack of grenades though. As much or more it's that Banshees either have to slog across the board with their T3 and 4+ save, or they have to hop out of a Serpent/Falcon and wait for a turn before they can assault. They're just too fragile to withstand the fire they're sure to receive before making it to combat, and once they actually get there they don't even have that great of a bite. I'd say the real fix for them would be either to give Eldar a WWP equivalent you can assault from, or change the Acrobatic rule to allow them to assault out of a transport (even if it has to remain stationary that turn, like in 5th ed).

[Erik Setzer]

The obliterator models just don't match the rest of my army since they are the only non demon/demon engine models that have any skin showing

My codex is at home, so I *might* be wrong on this, but weren't Obliterators given the Daemon rule, making them similar to Possessed in that they're daemon-infused creatures?

I like the idea of your theme, but since Obliterators were their own cults and there might not have been specifically Thousand Sons Obliterators, they can work without being empty suits of armor. That whole bodies-turned-to-dust thing only happened to the basic units of the Thousand Sons, not even their Sorcerors, and not any other Tzeentch worshiping Chaos Marines.

If it still bothers you, though, you could get a box of Chaos Terminators, then collect spare weapons, and model those weapons on in place of standard arms, making your own Thousand Sons Obliterators that way.

[Eldar_Atog]

I like the idea of your theme, but since Obliterators were their own cults and there might not have been specifically Thousand Sons Obliterators, they can work without being empty suits of armor. That whole bodies-turned-to-dust thing only happened to the basic units of the Thousand Sons, not even their Sorcerors, and not any other Tzeentch worshiping Chaos Marines.

True, but I just like the idea of the whole army being dust and the only sentient models being the Lord of Change and her lesser demons. Even my cultists are dust since I used Tomb Kings models :)




If it still bothers you, though, you could get a box of Chaos Terminators, then collect spare weapons, and model those weapons on in place of standard arms, making your own Thousand Sons Obliterators that way.
That is my plan except I'm using centurions instead of termies. They looked like they would be a little easier to convert and they already have a bunch of heavy weapons on the sprue. Just got to file off all those silly insignas.

[Xaric]

My FW daemon lord of nurgle i use him as a great unclean one :P

[The Imperial Fist]

I never leave home without 3 tactical squads, 4 if more than 1500. Usually a pair of vindicators and some AA. And always my faithful Hammernators.

[nenya97]

I pay imperial guard quite exclusively.
Wish I didn't have to take infantry to score objectives. Fething hate the meatbags as opposed to a proven leman russ.

If they made Leman Russes scoring by taking Pask or something, I would be having a hayday with enthusiasm. I own something like 17 Russes, and would field them exclusively if they could score.

[Tomgar]

For my Templars I always include Helbrecht, a 15-strong Crusader squad with flamer and powersword (Sword Brother with PS as well) and stick them in a Land Raider Crusader. Won't complain though since I don't find it especially dull. It's a hilarious, surprisingly effective unit (especially since "combat isn't viable anymore, boohoo") and as fluffy as it gets. I just tend to take what I find cool. I also always have 2 Dark Angels tactical squads but, once again, it's fluffy and I like them so no complaints here!

THAT SAID, I wish Dark Eldar Mandrakes weren't so horrifyingly bad. I consider them the worst unit in 40k by a country mile but the models are absolutely beautiful.

[Aknon]

I hate having the vendetta as an auto-include (don't have the new codex yet, i'm a poor student!) but other than that theres nothing i feel i Must take for the army to work in any of my armies (Marines, guard, orks, nids, dark eldar or grey knights). I do however have an amazing gaming group where we generally play very balanced lists, so auto-includes don't happen as much (although if we want a competitive game we do ramp it up quickly!). I have my favourite units that i will always include (mainly because they look cool, i.e. my mega-mega nobz, genestealer cultists, hooded cabalite warriors etc).

Things I want to include (I normally do) but wish were better are the genestealers. I play a cult list, so they kind of are an auto-include, but when my group does a "competative week" my stealers have no choice but to stay in the foam :(