Blood Angels tanks useless in the 6th?

[Lost Vyper]

Hi,

Today my friend made a test/fun-to-play -list, with loads of BA -vehicles. He had a Vindicator and two Baal Predators and two other Predators. Corbulo with the dudes (Veterans?) with the different selection of bolter rounds in a pod. Dante as HQ with the Dante-Bomb and a Biker squad with priest...Assault Jump pack -squad and a priest...well, loads of FNP´s to piss me off ;)...

I had as Eldar, Eldrad, Farseer on bike + 4 x Jetbike + 2 x Bikes (Cannons). 9x Scorpions + Exarch (Claw,Crushing Blow). 2 x 9 x DA´s + Exarch (Shield + Powersword) in a Wave Serpent (tlBL + Holo). 2 x 3 x WW´s (bl-bl), Wraithknight (stock). 5 x Spiders and 6 x Spiders and a Crimson Hunter with Exarch.

It seemed a match for the BA, they had the first and WK was down to 3 wounds...but...little by little the tide changed and i even mishapped (threw a 1!) the 6 Spiders...but the situation in the bottom of the fifth was, that he had just the Drop pod with 2 HP´s and on the 6th, the Scorpion Exarch wrecked it...

The point we discussed was, that in the 6th edition, the "tanks" are almost useless. The amount of Ignore Cover shots and the system of single hit destroying your 3-4 HP vehicle is rendering them as an ornament on your mantle (or shelf more likely...). Normally he tends to kick my *** with Mephiston and some Assault Troops with Jump packs, fliers, drop pods + Dreds, Melta Veterans wrecking my Wave Serpents, you catch my drift...

Do you use ANY of your armored vehicles anymore? If you do, what kind and for what purposes?

Still grinning after winning, but asking was it too easy,

- Lost Vyper

[unityvybe]

Hi,

Do you use ANY of your armored vehicles anymore? If you do, what kind and for what purposes?

- Lost Vyper


This is a dice game, so yes you did smash your buddy I tend to smash on my gaming buddy from time to time as well but sometimes he smashes me. I find Razorbacks and Rhinos still very useful and I play Vanilla marines.

Rhinos and Razorbacks are still great transports. They can both pop smoke and even if their cover save is ignored I would rather have a transport get popped then loose half a squad to shooting while on foot.

I think the old idea of the rhino/razor/vindi rush which Blood Angels were good at doing just isn't as viable now or at least until we see a new dex.

Transports now are what they always should have been transports sometimes in the case of the Razor they have the added bonus of being support.

I tend to use my Razors as more of a support role with a camped tac squad. The extra heavy bolter shots help a ton and make the objective harder to take. If I have to I can combat squad and hide half of the squad behind the Razor as a bunker of sorts.

That's at least my take on how I use my armor now.

[Wolfshade]

BAs fast vehicles are great I think. I tend to use Vindicators and Baal Predators, the baals being fast and outflanking can cause merry hell with the infantry in the enemy deployment zone, the vindis just because every one loves S10 large blasts :)

[Garradh]

I'm curious what version of 40K you played where antitank weapons couldn't destroy a vehicle in one shot with good dice rolls.

[Charon]

I'm curious what version of 40K you played where antitank weapons couldn't destroy a vehicle in one shot with good dice rolls.

The other way round... antitank could always kill vehicles in one shot but you had no hullpoints. So If you penetrate for the 20th time and still just get "crew shaken" the tank seemed to live forever. This was especially annoying with a holofield falcon (2d6 on damage table, you decide which one you take) with spirit stones (can ignore shaken and stunned) flying fast (only glancing hits allowed) which was near invincible.

[Garradh]

Yep, could shoot Rhinos so full of holes that the infantry inside started to lose their cover save . . . and it was a terrible rule system.

[ElectricPaladin]

I have found that Blood Angels tanks can be very useful, especially the ones that are balanced around short range. Blood Angels Baal predators and vindicators can be devastating in the right hands.

There are two things to remember:

1) You need to back up your tanks with infantry. As good as they are, they won't win the game by themselves. Your buddy made the mistake of bringing too many tanks and not enough boots, which is a mistake that you can make with any codex.

2) The Blood Angels codex is old and funky, filled with overcosted units and things that don't work quite right. The Eldar codex is brand new and arguably one of the strongest codices around right now. I'm not surprised that the tide turned.

I've never regretted bringing tanks along with my Blood Angels... as long as the rest of my list is well designed, that is.

[Maelstorm]

When I play BA it's with 3 Dakka Preds, 3 Dakka Baal Preds and 3 Winged Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts (Jump Troops). It's no longer a Rhino/Razor Rush but instead 27 HP in an AV13 wall of Bullets and flying AV13 Dreadnoughts!

Curious - In the vacuum of Theory Hammer, how would 3 Furioso Librarians fare against Seerstar? 12 inch Wings of Sanguinious Jump, followed by a 2d6 charge. Or 6" move and Hammer of Wrath at Initiative 10.

[Charon]

In the vacuum of theory hammer the seerstar would rip the Furiosos.
First of all you face 10 S9 rerollable overwatch shots (which kills/cripples probably one cybot before they reach them).
The hammer of wrath is getting absorbed by a 2+ rerollable armor save.
The main attacks from the Furioso come at the same time as 20 rerollable armorbane attacks (which could possibly kill another cybot) while you have to deal with rerollable 4++

Ad in case the eldar player is not too confident in fighting the cybots, he has so much more movement that you will never ever catch him if he doesnt allow it (which probably means that he will throw even more spears at you)

[DarkLink]

You beat someone while playing eldar. Don't get too cocky;).

[Lost Vyper]

I wasn´t being cocky (yeah, right...:)), but more like wondering the effectiveness of the armored assault now days. Remember, this was a "Haven´t-played-with-these-in-a-while" -list, that really does not work in this edition. I STILL fear the outflanking BAAL flamers, who´ll toast any objective holders in my end and Drop pod -assault IS DEADLY. Land Raider really doesn´t give the same "Oh My God, you a-hole brought a Land Raider!" -moments, that was in the 5th...it takes one tlBL and PIM, you are (at least) Immobilized...

[Charon]

I guess it depends on your local meta but I cant remember any "Oh My God, you a-hole brought a Land Raider!" -moments in 5th. It was more like "oh wow you really hate winning when you bring a Land Raider". Brightlances existed also in 5th edition and Eldar dont have a hard time fielding them.

[Bob821]

So Charon you are saying that one of the games most powerful deathstars can kill a couple of dreadnoughts from an old 5th codex... Not really a profound revelation ;)

I like running a pair of vindicators. Charge them up fast on the first turn and try to get a round or two of shooting before they die. Great for grabbing people’s attention and getting other units up the board unmolested.

[Charon]

So Charon you are saying that one of the games most powerful deathstars can kill a couple of dreadnoughts from an old 5th codex... Not really a profound revelation ;)


Obviously I answered his question, so I guess to him it is indeed a kind of relevation.

[Dave Mcturk]

i think the main thing that seems to have made 'tracked' vehicles a little less effective is the difficulty of getting reliable 4+ saves that most 'skimmer' style units can still get; and lower side armour than front armour [most skimmers have the same armour front and side] means enemy units always target the 'weak' armour.

not that i enjoy playing against a vindicator wall or outflanking heavy flamers, but there are ways to frustrate it and rear armour arc is very vulnerable. - skimmers by contrast are mobile enough to avoid many threats or to manouver into new positions much more quickly.

[jd2x.pacman]

I dont play BA, but I still love the rhinos with my space wolves., if only for the mobile cover they provide for my units. Probably just my meta, but the guys I play never seem willing to waste shots on an empty rhino, despite the fact that it is completely obscuring a squad of long fangs or what have you every turn.

[Bob821]

Obviously I answered his question, so I guess to him it is indeed a kind of relevation.

I beg your pardon sir.

[ElectricPaladin]

The thing you're not seeing, Vyper, is that any data gathered from a game of "newest and possibly strongest" codex vs. "oldest and among the weakest" codex isn't really valid. You can't say anything about Blood Angels tanks from this game because there are so many things wrong with the Blood Angels codex right now that really, who knows?

[Lost Vyper]

I think BA´s are still kicking a**, but not with the vehicles. Fe. Mephiston, Dante-bomb, Veterans, F´n FNP, Drop pods and Storm Ravens...list goes on...i know, that´s the army i have played against the most, first with the CSM (my first army) and now with Eldar and Dark Eldar...and the dude who plays with them, has been playing like five years longer than me, so, there´s that too :)...i think what bothers him the most (and obviously other BA-players too), is the fact, that you´ve spent hours and hours painting these vehicles and now they gather dust on the shelf. Cos if you want to be able to win, there´s the "proper" selection i mentioned before, with those you can still clean house...

[Tyrendian]

I think BA´s are still kicking a**, but not with the vehicles. Fe. Mephiston, Dante-bomb, Veterans, F´n FNP, Drop pods and Storm Ravens....

most of which current Codices (mainly Vanilla Marines for sake of comparability) can do just as well, maybe with slight variations (like Chapter Master on Bike with Shield Eternal instead of Mephy - no psychic powers, but is actually able to take a hit...), and have lots more tools up their sleeves... so yes BA is an outdated Codex - which doesn't mean they can't give you a run for your money with the right list!

[ElectricPaladin]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Tyrendian. The Blood Angels aren't as bad off as, say, pre-update Tau. There's more than one list in that old book! It's just that across the board, there are lots of units that are performing sub-par, lots of things that are overcosted, and lots of things that don't do their jobs as well as they should. A clever player with the right list can still win, but it's an uphill fight.

[Blood Shadow]

I actually fear the BA getting cost reduced at the expense of a nerf to guys like Mephiston & Lemartes...

The only issue challenging BA is the cost of the units....should be fairly straight forward to fix.

Perhaps an invulnerable save for Furiosos...but that's about it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a fast AV13 tank dropping str10 pie plates, or three of them...not much wrong with the BAAL pred either...

[TauBoss]

I play tau and always take tanks. Both for infantry transport and for killing nasty s**t.

eg hammerheadx2 and a sky ray

3 devil fish with squads

and I love piranhas. They get under estimated alot.

I do feel 6th has reduced the effectiveness of vehicles but not to the extent as to leave them on your shelfs. Dreadnoughts however have taken a pounding.

[Blood Shadow]

Yeah totally agree, walkers suffer from the worst of both worlds....perhaps boosting their HP would fix it?

[Bob821]

I think the walker rules just need to go away. I play blood angels angels and love my Dreadnoughts but the walker rules just dont work for the aggressive play styles that I expect a Dreadought to deal with easerly. They do seem to work ok for shooty walkers like Rifleman Dreads, Eldar walkers etc...

Not sure how to fix them though. Making walkers MC's could work but finding the balance of wounds, toughness, saves and points would take a good chunk of playtesting. For Dreadnoughts I think somthing like a riptide's stats with Dreadnought weapons would hit the spot nicely.

[Blood Shadow]

I was thinking you could just give walkers 6 HP each, (Furiosos could get more). Or just give them a 5++ or IWND.

[Bob821]

But with only armour 12 they can still get insta spanked by a single lucky shot... Play testing is required!

[TauBoss]

I was thinking you could just give walkers 6 HP each, (Furiosos could get more). Or just give them a 5++ or IWND.

4hp would be good and IWND. Would fit really well. I think if you made a dreadnought as tough as a riptide or wraithknight you would have to take the points that would go with it. But if you do that, then you are not that far away from an imp knight.

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But with only armour 12 they can still get insta spanked by a single lucky shot... Play testing is required!

Id play against your dreads with 4hp and iwnd if they cost you 25 points more. Start the play testing there?

[Gleipnir]

Vehicles in general are overcosted for the ease with which you can remove them with glancing shots, particularly in assault.

Part of why my gaming group uses a default armor save for vehicles that suffer glancing hits as a result of Armor Penetration rolls.

AP 1 no save
AP 2 6+
AP 3 5+
AP 4 4+
AP 5 3+
AP 6 2+
AP - 2+

Most your anti vehicular weapons carry at least an AP value of 4 such as krak grenades, and it really cuts down on the I punch the back of your tank with my fist and watch it explode silliness, Though vehicles are still vulnerable to the weapons designed to take them out.

Doesn't apply for glancing hits that are inflicted outside of an Armor Penetration roll, such as Gets Hot, Haywire, 6's on Gauss weapons, Graviton etc. and just like infantry models you only choose one save to use either armor, cover or invulnerable.

Two vehicle types that balance best with the change is you actually see AV10 transports and fast skimmers see use without being insta gibbed by small arms fire, and Walkers are beast in assault again so long as the opposing unit isn't all packing haywires.

[YorkNecromancer]

Part of why my gaming group uses a default armor save for vehicles that suffer glancing hits as a result of Armor Penetration rolls.

AP 1 no save
AP 2 6+
AP 3 5+
AP 4 4+
AP 5 3+
AP 6 2+
AP - 2+

That's a nice system.

[Bob821]

4hp would be good and IWND. Would fit really well. I think if you made a dreadnought as tough as a riptide or wraithknight you would have to take the points that would go with it. But if you do that, then you are not that far away from an imp knight.

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Id play against your dreads with 4hp and iwnd if they cost you 25 points more. Start the play testing there?

I dont think they need the cost increase if you only adding 1HP and it will not die. The problem is they already dont work and are expensive. Give them 4HP and IWND and leave the pts at 105 (for the basic one) or....

Riptide stats with dreadnought weapons. At around 140 - 160 pts. I know this is cheaper than a ridptide but riptides bounce around like spring lamps while dreads need to spend extra on drop pods or Storm Ravens to get around quick.

What do you think Tauboss? Fancy facing some Blood Angel MC's?

[Blood Shadow]

Vehicles in general are overcosted for the ease with which you can remove them with glancing shots, particularly in assault.

Part of why my gaming group uses a default armor save for vehicles that suffer glancing hits as a result of Armor Penetration rolls.

AP 1 no save
AP 2 6+
AP 3 5+
AP 4 4+
AP 5 3+
AP 6 2+
AP - 2+
.

I find this idea really interesting, can I ask why your gaming group didn't give an armour save instead so:

AV14 2+
AV13 3+
AV12 4+
AV11 5+
AV10 6+

Then use the AP rules as standard? Was wondering if you tried this first as it seems similar to the standard rules set?

I think it would boost AV14 a bit too much, then again it will rarely get it's save since most stuff penetrating AV14 is AP1 or 2 (manticores an exception). This way you don't get AV10 getting a 2+ save against things like the Puisher cannon or multi lasers....though it should probably see a reduction in HPs...

Perhaps just have this rule for Walkers?

[Gleipnir]

I find this idea really interesting, can I ask why your gaming group didn't give an armour save instead so:

AV14 2+
AV13 3+
AV12 4+
AV11 5+
AV10 6+

Then use the AP rules as standard? Was wondering if you tried this first as it seems similar to the standard rules set?

I think it would boost AV14 a bit too much, then again it will rarely get it's save since most stuff penetrating AV14 is AP1 or 2 (manticores an exception). This way you don't get AV10 getting a 2+ save against things like the Puisher cannon or multi lasers....though it should probably see a reduction in HPs...

Perhaps just have this rule for Walkers?

Reason we didn't base the save off armor values was because the AV is a not limited to 10-14(some attacks reduce AV, and some buildings have AV 15) but glancing hits and AP values are static values that really don't change. Also since high AP weapons are the best indicator of what would eliminate or make an armor save more difficult that seemed to be the better value to base the saves off of. AV is also directly opposed by a weapons strength rating.

We originally tried applying it to all glancing hits but did not like how that made effects like Gets Hot, Haywire, or Gauss weapons saveable, which based on how those glancing attacks is inflicting hull damage, we decided on a system that only applied to armor penetration rolls.

Wave Serpents shields were an interesting case under the changes we made since they made all Penetrating hits into glancing hits on an Armor penetration roll, but again since most Anti Vehicle weapons carry and AP of 1 or 2 those saves are usually less effective than the Wave Serpents available cover saves.

Really the biggest factors became no more easy small arms fire/close combat weapon kills of AV10 Skimmers, Transports and Flyers, plus Krak grenades, EMP grenades and Melta bombs became a more worthwhile investment for assaulting vehicles. And made AV 12 Walkers less of a joke in Assault, Though still easy enough to kill if you investing in gear like Power Fists and Melta Bombs, which really isn't unreasonable.

[Dave Mcturk]

that looks like an interesting idea; we went down a slightly different route and made big changes to vehicles in close combat - though for similar reasons; walkers obviously remained as is; but we increased vehicle 'nominal weapon skill' depending on speed:
stationary > as per brb ws 3
moved up to 12" > ws 4
moved over 12" > ws 5

this prevents 'mobs' of ST4 attackers charging on foot at / onto a 10 ton vehicle moving in excess of 60mph!

we also took the brave step of making attackers use the facing of the vehicle unless it was immobilised! ; as per the above post this means troops attacking vehicles really need a 'proper' anti-tank weapon - haywire/melta /fist.

we also give vehicles any IV or jink save they may have; i mean it works against a ST10 60" range AP1 weapon, but not an ork headbutt!

[Ang56]

You could just remove destroyed results from the dmg table, replace with "takes 2 hull points" if it would have been destroyed. Make them cut through the hull points. While not making it possible for them to make a string of saves and be miraculously indestructable.

Light vehicles could still be 1 shot if lucky, something with 3+ hp's would require 2-3 damaging hits.

Seems simpler adds a little durability, prevents the heavy tank 1 shot. No new tables or saving throw mechanics.

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I just think that in theory a saving throw is fine, but with the randomness of luck, you'll have that game where a vehicle makes all its saves and is much stronger then it should be.

Small changes, without adding a mechanic tend to be less damaging to gameplay.