Is Close Combat Viable This Edition?

[Chapter Master Jake]

I'm interested not only in playing Necrons but also Orks at some point. Since Orks are primarily a close combat horde faction, I want to know if it's still viable this edition or if I should wait, hope, and pray till 40K 7th Edition?

[SquigBrain]

Define "viable"?

Can you keep up in friendly games at your local store? Sure. You won't be winning any WAAC tournaments with them, though. :)

[Chapter Master Jake]

Well, I suppose I mean a competitive game, yes. Not hardcore copy cat listing, but if I want to win using close combat, that kind of viable.

[ElectricPaladin]

It also depends on what you mean by "close combat."

If you mean "nothing but infantry, and none of them are shooty, and the only thing I want to do is charge into combat and be in combat as much as possible" then you are going to lose a lot.

If you mean "an army that excels at fighting in the 12'' to 0'' range, including both close combat and short ranged shooting, with some longer ranged shooting to support them" then you might have some fight in you.

[SquigBrain]

Close combat works, *if* you can get there. That is currently the big issue for ork effectiveness. Due to the increase in shooting firepower, it is very difficult to walk across the board. That means you have to go with transports or bikes to be effective....and the trukk rush doesn't really work anymore, simply because the trukks explode from a harsh glare.

Personally, even as a rabid ork fanboy, I would suggest waiting until the new ork codex gets released (sometime this summer) before making any major purchases.

[DarkLink]

The game is fundamentally heavily biased towards shooting. Assault is situationally powerful, but difficult enough to reliably reach and has suffered so many nerfs that it's not worth planning an army around it. There are a few exceptions to this, though. Certain, very fast, units can either pull it off, or threaten to pull it off well enough that your opponent will dedicate a significant amount of firepower towards killing that unit. Daemon Princes, Wraithknights, and some Beast/Cavalry units can do this. If you're not one of those, odds are you're SOL.

[Sly]

Assault is most certainly viable, if that's the question. A lot of the units that people are scared about are largely assault oriented: Screamerstar, Seer Council, Beaststar, Imperial Knights, Spawnstar, IG blobs, etc. There are a lot of scary shooty units also, but it's not as if there aren't dangerous CC units. And that's not even mentioning 2nd tier units like Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, etc.

However, with a general increase in firepower, an "average" CC unit may have trouble getting to CC. If you look at the above scary units, all but the IG blob are fast, which is one reason why they are more likely to make it to CC. It's hard to footslog 6" per turn, against the "Oh, wow!" firepower that some lists can put out, unless you have a very tough unit. So the problem with the viability of assault, is that viability drops FAST as either speed or toughness drop. So there isn't much room in the viable range.. you have to be fast AND tough, or else extremely tough, or else you're not that good as an assault-oriented unit.

Orks can still be quite a good list, using Shoota Boyz, Warbikes, etc... basically, a shooty list that doesn't specialize in assault (it can't beat a real CC list in CC, but would expect to outshoot it), but can at least out-assault normal shooty lists. So if you're okay with shooting against CC lists, and assaulting shooty lists, they should be fine. But if you're looking to assault at all times, you will have problems... they're not good enough in CC if they make a shooty list to beat a CC list, so you'll lose that in assault, and if you go assault-heavy, you will have problems making it into CC against a shooty army.

[Wolfshade]

My ork list is trukks and boyz with each mob having a nob, then a trukk with warboss and nobz. These have managed to table my opponet a number of times.

Perfectly viable :)

[White Tiger88]

Works for Demonettes.....just run and charge 9pt rending speed demons!

[Charon]

CC is viable but much harder to run than "gunlines"

[Denzark]

I would agree with Charon. It requires finesse to pull off well. When you are there it is very good. Because all the ignoring cover tau and baleflamers can't touch you when you're smacking them in the face with your choppa...so to speak.

[Katharon]

I defeated a WAAC guy the other day by running a list that confounded his usual Space Wolves + Eldar shenanigans: Grey Knights with Allied Inquisition force. I had nine units of Inquisitorial henchmen Crusaders led by The Guy Who Always Expects Everyone and a backup Inquisitor chugging with a conversion beam'er.

It tossed through him through a loop and I happily diced him into pieces as he came through it.

[ElectricPaladin]

Works for Demonettes.....just run and charge 9pt rending speed demons!

Yes, but they're Fleet and their entire army book has universal Invulnerable save. They're practically playing a different game!

[Charon]

Yes, but they're Fleet and their entire army book has universal Invulnerable save. They're practically playing a different game!

Pretty much sums it up. Cheap, Rending, Invul, Fleet and +3 to run makes them very good prepared for melee (if you compare them to other melee units they will nearly always come out on top if you go for stict cost/efficiency) AND the warpstorm table tends to give you a little "firepower" too even if you are stict melee only.

[Garradh]

CC is still hugely impactful in the games I play, even when playing a shooting army I have to respect an assault-oriented army if I make too many mistakes and let him get units in melee. It's tougher to get into melee, yes, but not impossible. Force the opponent to deal with multiple threats at once until his shooting is overwhelmed and you start landing units in CC, then things quickly go downhill.

[Tomgar]

Personally, I never have trouble getting into combat with my Templars but then Space Marines have excellent delivery systems to get you into combat. A Crusader blob in a LRC is the core of my army and is pretty good at getting to the "more viable" gunline-type armies and spending the next 3 turns chopping them into bloody chunks. Same with my Stormraven filled with Hammernators. Footslogging a bunch of Assault Marines or a crusader blob can be problematic, but even then, they act as a decent distraction while my other combat units get into position.

Not sure how it'd work out for Orks, but I never worry about "meta" or what the community considers "viable." If you want to use something you like, MAKE it viable and laugh manically as your opponent's "unbeatable" Tau gunline gets shredded by a bunch of black-armoured space Germans HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

...

*ahem*

[Filthspew]

Very few builds of assault armies are viable, and as I understand OP, thats the question asked.
I have played a very assault oriented Nurgle CSM army since 4th.
Havent won much since 6th :eek:

Speed is the issue. Shooting begins dealing damage from turn one, and you are shure to have your full damage dealing capacity avaivable, or at least minus opponents alpha shooting.

Assault armies begin dealing damage from turn 3 (few units might make it turn 2 but thats rare or exorbitantly expensive).

Therefore, the assault army most often has sufferd the loss of three turns of damage (shooting) when they get there, and their effectiveness to deal damage themselves is therefore severely reduced.

In a simplified but never the less quite true way, you can say that the shooting unit has 6 turns and assault unit has 3 :D So just there, they lost 50% of their damage output compared to the shooty unit.

Was that not allways the case, you ask? Nope! Fleet got nerfed, transports got nerfed to hell, no assault from reserve or infiltrate, overwatch, random charge range, fortifications. All that combined severely delays the assault army and every turn it is delayed, its damage output is reduced.

On top of that, assault range being variable but shooting range fixed, deployment and positioning is much less risky and easy with shooting units. Eg. Miss that assault by 1 inch, and you are being shot to hell instead of pounding his face in cc. That shooting out of range, oh well, you cant do damage to prority number one. Pick another.

And certain units suffered, especially walkers that used to be good in assaults. Hull points and grenades in cc hurt them bad.

Some exeptions though. Flying MCs. There is huge potential. I can come up with a few Khorne lists with dual Bloodthirsters that will tear most armies a new one. Ravenwing or White scars biker list will work. Orks in Battlewagons supported by bikes and Nobs in Trucks (but I would wait for the new codex coming soon).

[Dave Mcturk]

i think ork nobz on bikes are one of the best cc units in the game. high ST, high T, two wounds each, FNP, a useful mix of cc and personal shooty weapons; 36 twin linked st 5 ap 5 shots at 30" on the bikes is also a threat to infantry or vehicles up to A11.
[their nemesis is necron overlords with MSS, but i tend to run three chumps to block initial disaster]

imo, the other really great cc unit is necron wraiths, they arent a beatstick, but they tend to tie up larger or more expensive units without too much blinking [do they blink?], they just nd to watch out for high ST overwatch.

and as a previous poster has said cheap cc units sometimes pay off - orc choppies with no upgrades are a real threat to most enemy units especially if you can screen their attack / pick a weak or exposed flank / avoid getting shot up first !!