Game of Thrones addict...

[Bigred]

I've power watched the entire show in the last 2 weeks.

I can't help myself...

[Mr Mystery]

The Hound.

All Westeros Starting Champion, 2014.

[DarkLink]

Todays episode was glorious. And I like how Oberyn and Loras were eyeing each other not very discretely.

[Wildeybeast]

NO SPOILAZZZ! Us transatlantic folk have to wait until tonight to get to watch it.

You read the books yet BR?

[Mr Mystery]

Ye indeed, easy on same day spoilers!

Got a mate coming round mine tonight to watch it, and last nights stew still good for eating! Gonna be awesome!

[Psychosplodge]

Still just waiting for the next book...

[Wildeybeast]

Feels like forever, especially with the way the last one ended. I saw there was a particularly cruel April Fools doing the round saying he had announced a 2015 release date. Sadly not true, though he has made another chapter available recently.

[Gotthammer]

Last week was the best, Arya and Hound 4eva!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/ab4247dd137cd2c77b7ea45ed16f2f98/tumblr_n3ofxdUR1y1r3nwsxo1_1280.jpg
http://37.media.tumblr.com/a5fd2842a6c8617bdac6ff56e006914d/tumblr_n3ofxdUR1y1r3nwsxo2_1280.jpg
http://37.media.tumblr.com/b60e20d634cd21b149fb8436e5908235/tumblr_n3ofxdUR1y1r3nwsxo4_1280.jpg
http://37.media.tumblr.com/75b84fabd22132aafd08581f0b9726c2/tumblr_n3ofxdUR1y1r3nwsxo3_1280.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/831b64fc809b410fa0e4b486781e6ca6/tumblr_n3ofxdUR1y1r3nwsxo5_1280.jpg



This weeks was really good too, and what Cerci said to Brienne!

[Psychosplodge]

Feels like forever, especially with the way the last one ended. I saw there was a particularly cruel April Fools doing the round saying he had announced a 2015 release date. Sadly not true, though he has made another chapter available recently.

Individual chapters are not good enough.

[Darren Richardson]

Gave up watching after season two, waiting till the final season is made then will take two weeks off work and watch the lot, A season a day....

Of course that all depends if the author gets off his arse and finishes writting the bloody books, I sware it's Harry Potter all over again, the final film was due to be made when the final book got released didn't it? we don't need that again....

[Wildeybeast]

Nope. I don't read them as it will spoil the book. But we know he's written about 8 chapters at least now. He really does need to get a move on though, there's probably only three more series before they catch the books up.

[daboarder]

word is that he has told the producers the broad outline of the story in the event that happens

can I just say I've been waiting for the last episode for AGES....Karma is a wonderful

and cercie, truly she is the queen ***** of the universe and so much like her father

[Gotthammer]

Well reportedly the producers have been given the general plot outline - who goes where and who kills who etc - of the series so they're going to steam on regardless and finish the series, so the show will become the spoilers not the books after a while it seems.

[daboarder]

Well reportedly the producers have been given the general plot outline - who goes where and who kills who etc - of the series so they're going to steam on regardless and finish the series, so the show will become the spoilers not the books after a while it seems.

Deathleaper'd :D

edit: honestly though, if it takes more than 3 years to finish then I worry that its because the author does not know how to tie the winding threads back together, you see that in epics.

wheel of time almost did it, in fact the only reason it didnt was because the author and his surrogate basically made a point of NOT answering or resolving everything

[eldargal]

I managed to get all my friends who hadn't read the books to think the Red Wedding episode was a happy interlude episode before a tense finale. One of my crowning achievements. Their suffering still sustains me.

[daboarder]

you know, I think its tywinn that irritates me the most, even more than joffrey.

see joffrey is an idiot and therefore his actions are....understandable.

But Tywinn....he's intelligent, and yet bigotted so much agaisnt his children.

he despises jamie for NOT being a devious son of a *****

Hates Tyrion because even though he is a devious SoB he is "deformed"

and finally hes wont make cercie his heir for no reason other than she is a female (and shes more ruthless and vindictive than he is)

[eldargal]

Tywin is my least favourite also. I should like Cersei but sadly despite a lot going for her as a compelling antagonist but GRRM just misses the mark with her. she comes off as needlessly violent and incompetent rather than genuinely ruthless in my opinion.

[daboarder]

Tywin is my least favourite also. I should like Cersei but sadly despite a lot going for her as a compelling antagonist but GRRM just misses the mark with her. she comes off as needlessly violent and incompetent rather than genuinely ruthless in my opinion.

A lot of his "evil" characters do.

take ramsay for example, he literally had no reason to do half the frakked up stuff he does exceot to highlight that he is "evil"

I've always felt that the thing about cercie was that she was out for herself. She doesnt even care about dynasties, as once shed dead the country could rot for all she cares.

thats why some people think it was her who did the recent poisoning, as he had become a threat to her power, through his marriage and his changing attitude

melissandre is a much more interesting female character to be honest, its even shapping up that she might actually be a "good" guy

[eldargal]

Yeah it's just a shame it happens with Cersei because his female main characters are usually really well done.

[Wildeybeast]

Umm, that's a massive plot spoiler you are referencing there Dab.

As for Cersi, she's shallow and manipulative because she is insecure in a male dominated world. She tries to control men through sex and seeks to destroy anyone who won't bow to that. I'd say she was a caricature if I didn't know someone who behaved exactly like that.

[Bigred]

Gave up watching after season two, waiting till the final season is made then will take two weeks off work and watch the lot, A season a day....


Well HBO just renewed the show for seasons 5-6, and the show-runners say they can wrap it all in 8. We might be waiting a while.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, there's potentially four more seasons or so before the series catches up with the books.


Of course that all depends if the author gets off his arse and finishes writting the bloody books, I sware it's Harry Potter all over again, the final film was due to be made when the final book got released didn't it? we don't need that again....
You... realize that the last harry potter book came out four years before the final film, right?

[Wildeybeast]

Well, they can condense the whole of Feast for Crows into one show, so that should speed it up.

[DarkLink]

Point is, they've got a lot of flexibility.

[Darren Richardson]

[COLOR=#333333]You... realize that the last harry potter book came out four years before the final film, right?

did it?

damn felt like it was shorter timespan....

where is all my time going?
:O

- - - Updated - - -


Well HBO just renewed the show for seasons 5-6, and the show-runners say they can wrap it all in 8. We might be waiting a while.

I don't mind waiting, besides I hate adverts inbetween my programs!

[daboarder]

Umm, that's a massive plot spoiler you are referencing there Dab.

As for Cersi, she's shallow and manipulative because she is insecure in a male dominated world. She tries to control men through sex and seeks to destroy anyone who won't bow to that. I'd say she was a caricature if I didn't know someone who behaved exactly like that.

dammit, um....were keeping this spoiler free? bugger....


how do I do those funny little hiddy tags?

[Psychosplodge]

https://24.media.tumblr.com/5b2139bc32d2a0f2fcd2b24c7e2c9a9f/tumblr_mrcamtcl191qkpda1o1_500.gif
https://31.media.tumblr.com/c6c1c6590e87aeca6613c0c905717d92/tumblr_mrcamtcl191qkpda1o2_500.gif
https://24.media.tumblr.com/4c48caf050e126f26467a0e86c935df7/tumblr_mrcamtcl191qkpda1o3_500.gif

[White Tiger88]

lol! more like he was cackling well thinking about how many more would soon need work.....

[Mr Mystery]

Needs to be next Monday.

Want moar.

[White Tiger88]

Needs to be next Monday.

Want moar.

Would you like some pie & wine to pass the time?

[Mr Mystery]

No. Get stuffed.

I want The Lady Malissandra.

And a fire extinguisher. Just in case.

[Gotthammer]

More pie for Jaime then!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/4d37db9550948d3c5f0cf63c23ee8f30/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo2_r1_500.gif
http://37.media.tumblr.com/7043932bb1cfdfa389b8ecefb88c510a/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo1_500.gif

:p

Was it just me or did it feel like Bran's scene was total filler this week? Sort of a oh hey remember these guys thing than anything that did anything?

[White Tiger88]

More pie for Jaime then!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/4d37db9550948d3c5f0cf63c23ee8f30/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo2_r1_500.gif
http://37.media.tumblr.com/7043932bb1cfdfa389b8ecefb88c510a/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo1_500.gif

:p

Was it just me or did it feel like Bran's scene was total filler this week? Sort of a oh hey remember these guys thing than anything that did anything?

So i wasn't the only one thinking he was rushing for the pie?

[Wildeybeast]

More pie for Jaime then!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/4d37db9550948d3c5f0cf63c23ee8f30/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo2_r1_500.gif
http://37.media.tumblr.com/7043932bb1cfdfa389b8ecefb88c510a/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo1_500.gif

:p

Was it just me or did it feel like Bran's scene was total filler this week? Sort of a oh hey remember these guys thing than anything that did anything?

Highlarious. Yeah, Bran's scene was largely filler. To be honest, he buggers about not doing much for a quite a while until something interesting happens to him. The books have been building him up to play a massive role in the end game, but we don't really know what or when. Though his role is positively action filled compared to Rickon's.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah, but Rickon is just a sprog. Don't be too harsh!

Me, I currently enjoying Sansa's quiet dignity. She's starting to mature well as a character!

[Gotthammer]

People don’t like her because it’s the making of her, right now. When she, sometime soon in the future, becomes this person that she’s been kind of building up to, for the past three seasons, now four, then people will really begin to root for her. I think even the audience doesn’t realize she’s such a dark horse. If she acted badass and tried to kill everyone there, she would be dead by now! She’s so intelligent, and I can’t stress that enough. Courtesy is a lady’s armor. She’s using her courtesy to deceive people, and she’s using her former self as a facade, and it works so much to her advantage, because people still think she’s this naive, vulnerable, little girl, and she’s really not. She knows exactly what she’s doing. She knows what game she’s playing! And no one else does. And she’s learned from the best — Cersei, Margaery, Tyrion, Littlefinger, even Joffrey. She’s learned so much from these people, and they don’t even realize it. They’re unwittingly feeding her to become this great kind of manipulator. King’s Landing can either make or break a person, and in Sansa’s case, it’s making her.

— Sophie Turner, in response to Sansa hate

[eldargal]

http://37.media.tumblr.com/729b3a58e0a461ee966e844b8507a0b6/tumblr_n3u82zJKLR1qgptsro2_250.gifhttp://37.media.tumblr.com/2e5e4181dddf074682c712f09fcb9e7f/tumblr_n3u82zJKLR1qgptsro1_250.gif

Hehe:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/9370370dbc328619a40e07bd79a26a74/tumblr_n409lvmVRK1qa5csdo1_500.gif
http://37.media.tumblr.com/7cd70a9049c252c8de10951133496d44/tumblr_n409lvmVRK1qa5csdo2_500.gif

[Mr Mystery]

— Sophie Turner, in response to Sansa hate

Bang on.

[Gotthammer]

Dothraki & MLP - now I'm imagining Kal Drogo with a rainbow tattooed on his arse >.<

And I really don't get the Joffrey hate, I mean he's a really positive and empowering guy:

https://24.media.tumblr.com/310b3e6d2ee37c5a982deca03b2def27/tumblr_n40b11CLYO1s4mejmo1_400.gif

[Wildeybeast]

Martin gave the Stark kids a really hard time to start with, but as the books have gone on, it's becoming clearer that they are all (well, those that are still alive) going to be big players when winter comes. They are Starks after all. I can't wait to see how the play out. Sansa is nicely set up to blossom into a key role. I wasn't aware people didn't like her, there are far more objectionable characters In the show after all.

[Mr Mystery]

People don't like her because apparently she's all feak and weeble and should do what any unarmed, untrained young lady in medieval settings would do which is go on an ill-advised rampage against all comers to avenge her family's murders, and certainly not just do her best to keep out of harms way despite everyone she meets using her for political leverage of some kind.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want another book, it's nice to see the show catching up though.

I may be very sad next week as Tywin IS one of my favourites and I know when that thing happens... :(

[Wildeybeast]

Bah, we already have one Stark girl stabbing everyone who says anything mean about her family, two would just be repetitive. The scene yesterday in which she gets up to hand Tyrion the cup whilst everyone else is being incredibly interested in their own shoes shows her quiet inner strength.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm enjoying Sansa's character now, she has seen some stuff and reorganised her priorities.

[Gotthammer]

http://37.media.tumblr.com/3bf62d8e401a3c818019ab27dff1515f/tumblr_n40ykyTzTw1qzduz1o1_1280.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Let's go to the beach!

[Gotthammer]

The episode's going to be awesome, I'm really looking forward to it! :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Nicki Minaj hits Westeros? :p

[Gotthammer]

Every good show needs a beach party / bath house episode XD

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I know someone who won't be invited.

*your grace*

[Gotthammer]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ba2fcc45f977a1231ba4025affe7b2c1/tumblr_inline_n41vzbaRBi1qgggdt.png

*le gasp* But I bought a new speedo and everything!

It's funny that Joffrey is such an a-hole but Jack Gleeson is basically the nicest guy on the planet (http://seiphirai.tumblr.com/post/72280772735). I mean come on:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/f19537c232b5af2cb3cdb1128d397310/tumblr_inline_n4065zY7jg1s0k73b.gif

:p

This one cracks me up because Alfie looks like he's going to murder someone:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/33b4970dc48c7d862495b35fb9ad01de/tumblr_mrnaxrqmLh1stdviko1_500.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Bless ol' Jack.
At least we know he can act. :p


It's all of that torture, he's a changed man.

[Nabterayl]

she comes off as needlessly violent and incompetent rather than genuinely ruthless in my opinion.
I think the key to Cersei is what someone says of her in ... I forget which book, but the point is, someone says that she really isn't as smart as she thinks she is. She looks out of her depth because she is, but she continues to act like she does because she thinks she's smart, capable and canny.

She's been raised to think she's a person of power and influence and despises her brothers because they don't live up to the example of ruthlessness that her father showed. Unlike Lord Tywin, though, Cersei is merely of average or slightly above average intelligence. She doesn't recognize, as Tywin does, that even the oldest family's power is ephemeral and must be maintained by canny realpolitik. Tywin isn't the powerful person in every situation because he's a Lannister; he's powerful because he's Tywin. Cersei lacks his ability to read people and manipulate them accordingly. She's playing the game according to her received rules, but without his deep ability to understand reality and relate it to the rules structure. In that respect she's no different from Catelyn, or Ned. Her code is different from theirs but its rote inflexibility is equally ineffective.

[DarkLink]

Tywin himself tells her that. "I don't mistrust you because you're a woman, I mistrust you because you're not as clever as you think you are." Trust me, it will come back to bite her in the future.

[Mr Mystery]

Cersei depended upon Joffrey's position.

She could do what she wanted because she was the mother of a vicious child who happened to be King.

With that gone.....

[Nabterayl]

Well, she depends on more than that. For instance, she's so certain she can beat Ned, and put Joffrey on the throne, and run the Small Council, because she thinks she's a badass political player. And she's simply wrong about that.

EDIT: Might have misread your post. If you mean her successes came largely from Joffrey's position and not her own political skill, I absolutely agree. Or from her father's position, or her family's position, or whatever. Cersei has had some political successes, but she thinks they all came from her own will and savvy, and they didn't.

[Mr Mystery]

Mix of Joffrey and her Dad's position enabling her own.

Her position is easily the most tenuous of all the characters, and she just doesn't realise it.

She's quite readily driven away Jamie, and Tyrion, well the less said there the better.

Remove Tywin, and what's she got? She's pissed off a lot of people, and they're no doubt keeping count.

[White Tiger88]

Mix of Joffrey and her Dad's position enabling her own.

Her position is easily the most tenuous of all the characters, and she just doesn't realise it.

She's quite readily driven away Jamie, and Tyrion, well the less said there the better.

Remove Tywin, and what's she got? She's pissed off a lot of people, and they're no doubt keeping count.

This is why i have a nice cold beer ready for when she get's hers.........

[daboarder]

Cersei depended upon Joffrey's position.

She could do what she wanted because she was the mother of a vicious child who happened to be King.

With that gone.....

believe me when I say that shes smart enough that a little thing like her sone the "king" being dead isn't enough to stop cercie lannister

[Mr Mystery]

Is say she's deluded enough not to let that stop her.

Smart would be using cats paws and keeping your own hands clean.....

[daboarder]

Is say she's deluded enough not to let that stop her.

Smart would be using cats paws and keeping your own hands clean.....

Just keep watching mystery;)

[Gotthammer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ACuI28p1Co

This had me in hysterics XD

[Gotthammer]

http://37.media.tumblr.com/5dda3c38ffdc79117de85b429afd3e0a/tumblr_n47710z8zC1rwljrpo1_500.gif

http://37.media.tumblr.com/81c47d15c0883647f19c1c76e9c79810/tumblr_n47710z8zC1rwljrpo3_500.gif


Who knew that coffee makes your hand grow back?

[Wildeybeast]

Is that actually from the show? Cos it looks photoshopped to me.

[Gotthammer]

He's not in his armour either so probably a rehearsal shot - think it's from one of the preview vids.

[Mr Mystery]

Another satisfying episode!

[eldargal]

What that Game of Thrones scene says about rape culture (http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/04/21/3429107/game-of-thrones-rape/)

Just going to leave that here.

[Wildeybeast]

Yes, I found that scene deeply uncomfortable and rather out of keeping with the rest of the episode. I don't understand why they changed it from the book, it adds nothing either character. I doubt they actually intended it to be a rape scene, but given she clearly objects and doesn't come round to consenting, it's hard to view it as anything else. It was made more uncomfortable by the characters involved. Rape is commonplace in that world, there's no getting away from it, but I don't recall any of the main characters ever being directly involved in it. It's always spoke about in retrospect, and usually to people who are long dead, or unnamed 'plebs'. Directly and graphically representing it, with two main characters, who had previously been in a loving relationship, takes it to a whole new level. This moment is a turning point for their relationship, but thanks to that scene, it is now for entirely the wrong reasons.

[Mr Mystery]

Quick caveat - Haven't read the books, so don't know much about how the breakdown of that relationship is portrayed.

But could it be a method of showing the shift with limited scenes, for plot reasons. Incredibly rubbish method, but a plot device type thing? (not defending the scene)

[eldargal]

Yeah the scene was mishandled, the director has said it wasn't supposed to be a rape scene because she consents towards the end which highlights one of the things the scene says about our culture. The characterisation makes the scene look even more gratuitous though:

Character A is known to dislike sexual violence
Character A is seriously injured defending Character B* from sexual violence
Character A sexually assaults Character C**

...what? It's just a mess.

*Ha
**Ha!

[Wildeybeast]

Quick caveat - Haven't read the books, so don't know much about how the breakdown of that relationship is portrayed.

But could it be a method of showing the shift with limited scenes, for plot reasons. Incredibly rubbish method, but a plot device type thing? (not defending the scene)

Basically, they just sort of drift apart. Jamie is actually growing as a person an developing something resembling moral fibre, and realises after Cersi's indiscretions with Lancel and her revulsion about his lack of hand that maybe she isn't who sphe thought she was. This takes all of that away from him.


Yeah the scene was mishandled, the director has said it wasn't supposed to be a rape scene because she consents towards the end which highlights one of the things the scene says about our culture. The characterisation makes the scene look even more gratuitous though:

Character A is known to dislike sexual violence
Character A is seriously injured defending Character B* from sexual violence
Character A sexually assaults Character C**

...what? It's just a mess.

*Ha
**Ha!

I didn't notice her struggling, but other than that I didn't notice her consenting.

It was also very incongruous with the previous scene, which had a rare moment of Tywin not being a complete sh1t and actually trying to look after his grandson (though in a typical out for himself sort of way). Just a massive misstep by a show that has otherwise handled the sex element fairly well. Very disappointing.

[eldargal]

She says 'no, it's wrong' at one point and he says he doesn't care.

[Gotthammer]

I did appreciate GRR Martin's response on the situation:


I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.
The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.
If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.
That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Mind you I skipped the scene when watching so for me it never happened...

[Wildeybeast]

She says 'no, it's wrong' at one point and he says he doesn't care.

Does that count as consent? As soon as she says 'no' in a sex scene, it creates a range of problems. Is she voicing an objection to the location/time/presence of their son's corpse or to him (given her disgust at his hand) or to the actual act of sex? If any of the above are valid, surely she has still said no to sex at that moment in time. For him to then over ride that with 'I don't care' seems fairly clear it's rape. Either I'm missing something, or the director is really pretty stupid to not see that this clearly looks like rape.



I did appreciate GRR Martin's response on the situation:
Mind you I skipped the scene when watching so for me it never happened...

That is a well explained response if why it came out like it did and I'm glad to see he hasn't ignored peoples concerns, but it really needs Benioff and Weiss to come out say 'sorry, we effed up. That didn't come out how we meant to, we apologise'.
I wish I had done what you did. I really enjoyed that scene with Tywin and Tommen, it was his best since his sparring with Arya in Harrenhal.

[Gotthammer]

I luckily knew it was coming up and was very badly done (no means no is carved in stone in our society so really hard to read the scene any other way) so once the talking stopped jumped ahead. And like you said the Tommen/Tywin part of the scene was actually really well done.

[Denzark]

I don't think it glorified rape or talked it up. It just looked like rape. Maybe it was offensive to a lot of people. The directors said it wasn't supposed to be a rape. Take the extra context from GRRM above and also the book scene as written, and it just seems like they hashed it. I personally found it a lot less shocking than the Red Wedding. On my scale of personal disgust pregnant ladies getting knifed in pregnant belly is higher than rape.

[Wildeybeast]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it glorified or talked up rape. The problem is it was unnecessary, out of keeping with the show and characters and just handled in a very cack handed way. They tried to make a scene shocking and succeeded for totally the wrong reasons. It would actually be better if they had intended to make it a rape scene; what is more worrying is that everyone involved in making that scene didn't see anything wrong with it and didn't pick up on how audiences would react.

[daboarder]

I'm curious as to the why now?

As in why now has the show crossed your (general your) moral event horizon?

Is it because the director made that statement claiming he didnt intend it to look like rape? Or is it merely the depiction of rape in and of itself?

If its the first then sure I can see why you would be upset by the directors thoughts on what constitutes rape, but then your responce should concern the director not the show itself.

As for the latter, do people really think that the depiction of rape is worse than the depiction of torturing children to death? because thats happened in this show.

Was the aggression in the scene unnecessary, sure I think it was, but its not by far the worse thing thats depicted in this show.

Hell in the same episode you have a bunch of people eating a child's parents in front of him, before killing him.....so....yeah....

[eldargal]

It was unnecessary and gratuitous and the fact that the director doesn't even know what rape is just shows what a problem how society has with rape culture when we think a man can force himself on a woman and if she doesn't resist in exactly the right yet undefined way it doesn't count as rape.

The problem with rape vs the other horrible things that happens on Game of Thrones is that all of those are either fictional entirely or so rare in the modern world that they are basically hypothetical to most people. The chance of being murdered in the UK is 1.2 in 100,000. The chance of being raped is about 1 in 5. Murder doesn't leave traumatised survivors who can be triggered by scenes like this, rape does. Most of the other hyper-violence in GoT is so obviously fictional it is easy to separate from reality. Rape isn't. Rape is a common, daily occurrence which is not taken seriously by society, its perpetrator are not punished and the onus is places on the victim not the aggressor. Rape is absolutely not something which should be used inserted into a show just to shock people because there are large numbers of people who have had hteir lives ruined by sexual assault around today to see what they suffered through being used as a cheap narrative trick in a television show.

Then there is the issue that it was completely inexplciable for Jaime to behave that way. He lost his hand defending Brienne from sexual assault, he is known to hate sexual violence and in the books the scene was consensual. So why wasn't it in the show? Because the men writing it don't understand what rape is, basically, and that is the issue. It isn't that GoT is bad it is that the people writing it have a poor record of dealing with this issue. They turned Drogo asking consent of Daenerys on their wedding night into a cruel joke (he didn't know what no meant), Ros was murdered in a highly sexualised way by Joffrey which was also unnecessary and now this. In contrast you had the scene with the raped and murdered village girls and their rapists who were killed by Brienne which was brutal but not gratuitous.

Also when people are talking about GoT in this regard we aren't criticising the show, the show isn't some kind of sentient being responsible for this. It is short hand for the people responsible for making these decisions. It wasn't even deliberate, that much is obvious but the problem was they mishandled it terribly and instead of owning that they are deflecting it and giving fodder to the many rape apologists coming out of the wood work on media sites and even tumblr. Its really horrible. The responses by the director and even Jaimes actor are onl serving to continue to mislead people as to what actually constitutes rape because they genuinely seem to think Cersei gave consent when she kissed Jaime despite struggling and crying and saying 'no'. You even have people saying she deserved it because she is a bad person or that because Jaime had done bad things somehow that excuses rape. The scene itself was bad, the reaction to it has been horrific.

[Psychosplodge]

I read on tumblr that they have given people personality transplants in the series one with this rape scene.
Another with the hound with the wood choopping in a village (in the books when asked to leave he does so peacefully)
They seem quite major personality flips...
Though I haven't seen the series

[Denzark]

The problem with rape vs the other horrible things that happens on Game of Thrones is that all of those are either fictional entirely or so rare in the modern world that they are basically hypothetical to most people. The chance of being murdered in the UK is 1.2 in 100,000. The chance of being raped is about 1 in 5. Don't bother to give me stats here but I highly doubt this is the Stat for the UK. Neither a 1 in 5 chance of being raped at any given time is true, nor is 1 in 5 women in the UK victims of rape.

Murder doesn't leave traumatised survivors who can be triggered by scenes like this, rape does.

Tell that to the Soham families. This is an incredibly trite thing to say.


Most of the other hyper-violence in GoT is so obviously fictional it is easy to separate from reality. Rape isn't. Rape is a common, daily occurrence which is not taken seriously by society, its perpetrator are not punished and the onus is places on the victim not the aggressor. Rape is absolutely not something which should be used inserted into a show just to shock people because there are large numbers of people who have had hteir lives ruined by sexual assault around today to see what they suffered through being used as a cheap narrative trick in a television show.

I think the difference between rape and murder is clearly one is anathema to your politics and one isn't. Feminists privilege mayhaps? The result is that we are now subjected to crayoning over a thread about a TV show with thoughts about rape. Wonderful.

Where's my cornflakes?

[eldargal]

Murder by definition doesn't leave a victim, I'm surprised you hadn't realised that. Rape is common, murder is not.

You don't get to ****ing dismiss it and then say 'don't show me stats'.

There are an estimated 85,000 cases of rape (not just sexual assault, but rape) each year (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales). The overwhelming majority of these leaves a traumatised survivor and friends and family who are also traumatised to some extent.

There were 550 homicides in 2011-12 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18900384). None of those left a traumatised survivors on account of the victim being dead. The traumatised family and friends are still going to be exponentially outweighed by rape survivors alone. I'm not downplaying how horrible having someone close to you murdered is but it is still really, really rare.

Murder is rare, rape is common. Murder doesn't leave traumatised survivors who can be re-traumatised by callous, gratuitous scenes in television shows, rape does.

Here is a thought, if people don't want a topic about a television show not to have discussion about rape in it, maybe the ****ing show shouldn't include gratuitous rape scenes? Why is it ok to talk about what a ******* Joffrey is or how awesome Arya is but not how the show depicts sexual violence? It is a part of the show, afterall. You don't get to pick and choose what ****ing issues a show raises get discussed.

[Mr Mystery]

And of those cases, they don't include my experience, on account legally, a woman cannot rape a man.

Except they very much can, and it is indeed unpleasent.

[eldargal]

And of those cases, they don't include my experience, on account legally, a woman cannot rape a man.

Except they very much can, and it is indeed unpleasent.

Yup, the above stats are just looking at female victims. It also only included pentrative rape, if you include sexual assault in general the figure rises to 404,000 women and 72,000 men. The murder rate varies from 550-900 depending on the year in the past decade or so. I think 2010 was a low point with 440 or so, half of which were women. So don't even think about saying murder isn't a feminist issue when between a third and a half of murder victims are women.

And again, you don't get to have a ****ing rape scene in your teevee show and not have it discussed in discussions about that teevee show. Don't want to wade through discussions like this? Write to HBO and tell them to get their ****ing **** together and not show gratuitous rape scenes.

[daboarder]

Im sure the families and witnesses of murder love being dismissed.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm curious as to the why now?

As in why now has the show crossed your (general your) moral event horizon?

Is it because the director made that statement claiming he didnt intend it to look like rape? Or is it merely the depiction of rape in and of itself?

If its the first then sure I can see why you would be upset by the directors thoughts on what constitutes rape, but then your responce should concern the director not the show itself.

As for the latter, do people really think that the depiction of rape is worse than the depiction of torturing children to death? because thats happened in this show.

Was the aggression in the scene unnecessary, sure I think it was, but its not by far the worse thing thats depicted in this show.

Hell in the same episode you have a bunch of people eating a child's parents in front of him, before killing him.....so....yeah....

I didn't say it had crossed my moral event horizon. There is plenty of stuff in there that I find objectionable, but I'm able to separate it out mentally from real life, same as this. I'm not calling for people's heads or gathering an angry mob. But they did make a mistake and it's right that we draw attention to it, not act as apologists for them.

My problem is that it was unnecessary and inconsistent with both the show and the books. EG has already made the point about Jamie's views on sexual violence and I've already said it is out of keeping with their relationship. But it also breaks the internal moral code of the universe. Rape is never actively depicted, only ever referenced, neither is the murder of children. Slavery is definitely wrong, but treating women as second class citizens is the norm. I'm not saying that moral code is right, but it is there. The wilding scene you reference is incorrect. The boy is told his parents are going to be eaten, but then sent packing for castl black. No more is made of it. We never see the cannibalism and in fact don't no whether this happens or was simply said to terrify the child. The show crossed it's own lines with a rape scene.

But none of those really matters. The biggest issue is that they didn't mean to make rape sene and apparently no one forsaw how much this looks like a rape scene. What does that say about their editing process, and far worse, their views on rape? How did so many people think this scene was ok, without anyone picking up that many people would view it as rape? And then for no one (othe than GRRM) to apologise makes it worse.

Compare it with the underwear scene in Star Trek. The directors and producers explained their reasons, offered up the Cumberbatch shower scene by way of balance, but most of all, apologised. They said they made a mistake, that it was gratuitous and unnecessary and that they would learn from it. Most people were happy with that and moved on. No angry mobs, internet rage quelled.

That is all it would take it here. The scene was unnecessary and inconsistent with the rest of the show. I believe them when they say it was meant to be consensual, as I suspect will most reasonable people. So all they need to do is say sorry that it didn't come out that way and that they will think more carefully in future.

[eldargal]

Im sure the families and witnesses of murder love being dismissed.

Not dismissed, put in perspective. Murder is really, really rare and those traumatised by it are very, very few. In contrast rape and sexual assault is very, very common. There may be thousands of people traumatised by witnessing a murder or losing a loved one to murder but there are hundreds of thousands of sexual assault victims every single year. That is a lot of people for whom the worst experience of their life is reduced to a gratuitous scene in a television show because the writers ****ed it up.


But none of those really matters. The biggest issue is that they didn't mean to make rape sene and apparently no one forsaw how much this looks like a rape scene. What does that say about their editing process, and far worse, their views on rape? How did so many people think this scene was ok, without anyone picking up that many people would view it as rape? And then for no one (othe than GRRM) to apologise makes it worse.
Right and this is the thing that seems to be lost on people. The morals of Westeros have nothing to do with it. The issue here is that the writers screwed the scene up. By their own admission it wasn't supposed to be a rape scene, but it was. All it would have taken was Cersei saying yes at the start like she did in the book to avoid this. They ****ed up and the scary thing is how many people are becoming rape apologists rather than accept the shows writers ****ed up. You have people who will happily ignore the fact the whole thing was against the authors intent AND the characters own moral values just because, what, they like the ****ing show?

[daboarder]

Right and this is the thing that seems to be lost on people. The morals of Westeros have nothing to do with it.

Its not lost on anyone, I made a point of adressing that in my first post.

People just arent agreeing with your assessment of the depiction of murder as a "lesser" evil than that of rape.

And frankly if thats your world view, its scarily skewed.

By your own logic theft is worse than rape and murder, as its more common and leaves more "victims"

edit: Widley, I agree with your assessment that it was an unnecessary and uncharacteristic act by the characters. It was likely added solely for shock value.

[Mr Mystery]

I think you're misunderstanding EG's point here.

Rape is something you survive (for the most part). Thus, when you have been raped, you face stuff on telly which can trivialise it, or bring unwelcome memories to the fore. Take my experience. I've moved on, but occasionally I'll hear a phrase which brings back a deeply unpleasent memory. And my experience is pretty far removed from the more brutal kinds people are subjected to. I don't enjoy seeing it trivialised, even when it's role reversed from my experience. It's not something to be taken lightly at all. Cersei eventually appears to submit, which is not the same thing as giving consent. That this isn't that well known to be, you know, rape, is a massive, massive issue in the world.

Murder? The prime victim is sadly deceased. Yes, the family may see on telly stuff which reminds them of the horrific circumstances of their loss, but unless they were forced to watch the actual murder, they remain spared the details. And that is a crucial difference in viewing a murder on the telly. Few people in the world will be seeing a scene they actually experienced, so the trauma is lessened compared to rape victims, whether you care to admit it or not.

[eldargal]

It is not lesser, it is rarer and by definition doesn't leave victims behind to be traumatised by seeing it on television. The issue isn't that depictions of rape is some kind of taboo (there was an earlier scene with raped ANd murdered peasants who were avenged by Brienne which was brutal without being gratuitous) but that this scene was completely mishandled and that people are lining up to show themselves as rape apologists rather than just accept the writers ****ed up.

By your own logic theft is worse than rape and murder, as its more common and leaves more "victims"
That isn't my logic, that is your perverse interpretation. It was also you who brought murder into it, not me. I was talking about the scene as a rape scene in isolation and how the writers mishandled it when you brought up other unrelated crimes.

[daboarder]

edit: sod it, whatever guys, clearly we disagree on what constitutes stepping over the line and were not going to agree any time soon. Its not worth me getting angry over.

Mystery You have my condolences for your situation.

[Mr Mystery]

I hope you never find out to the contrary.

[Darren Richardson]

Eldargal I hate to say it, but you really have pushed this to far...


Murder by definition doesn't leave a victim...

That one sentance is the most offensive thing I think you have ever muttered on this thread.

Murder does leave victims

What about the poor Mother who son was murdered while at a bus stop...
What about the Wife who's husband was killed while defending his home and property...
What about the Child who's left without a mother after a vicious assualt in a park.....

All three of thos sentances above are related to infamous murders here in the UK AND ALL THOSE MURDERS LEFT VICTIMS!

I'm right pissed off now....

[eldargal]

Except it is true. It doesn't make the crime any less abhorrent, this isn't about ranking crimes in some kind of hierarchy of horribleness. The issue is that people are trying to dismiss the seriousness of rape by saying 'well murder is bad' like that is being questioned. All I am saying is that murder effects FAR fewer people and that there are by definition no murder survivors who can be triggered and that the numbers of people who could be triggered by murder on television are vastly lower than those who could be triggered by sexual assault on television. The issue here isn't that murder isn't bad or that it doesn't destroy the lives of the victims families and friends but that their suffering is being used to disregard the feelings of the millions of rape survivors in the countries GoT airs in.

You're pissed off? I'm pissed off that people are defending a ****ing rape scene on teevee because apparently watching a woman get violated because the writers ****ed up is more acceptable than pointing out they ****ed up. I'm not even the one who brought up murder in teh first place.

[daboarder]

Edit2:

no one is defending a rape scene

they are ****ty at your decision that the rape scene is somehow more abhorrent than the torture, child abuse, slavery and cannabilism, in the rest of the show

[eldargal]

Edit2:

no one is defending a rape scene

they are ****ty at your decision that the rape scene is somehow more abhorrent than the torture, child abuse, slavery and cannabilism, in the rest of the show
I'm not saying rape is worse than any of those things, I'm not even saying rape can't be referenced in the show. What I am saying is that the writers ****ed up and instead of accepting that people are trying to excuse a gratuitous rape scene which shouldn't have been a rape scene. Depictions of murder, cannibalism etc are ****ing irrelevant because it isn't about what can and cannot be shown, it is about the writers not ****ing understanding what consent is and people deciding it is better to be a rape apologist than let a television show be criticised.

[Gotthammer]

To perhaps phrase differently- EG isn't saying other people aren't affected by a person's murder, but that when a person is murdered that person doesn't have to be very careful with what TV or movies they watch because, despite the source being very different people will accidentally depict a very realistic sexual assault scene then deny they've f'ed up.
I'm saying this as someone who is a survivor like Mystery. I still can't actually say the r-word out loud, reading it makes me uncomfortable and writing it takes a lot of effort. Hell, it was a long time before I could even admit that it happened to me. I am so very grateful I had the last ep of GoT spoiled for me or accidentally seeing that scene as a total out of character out of the blue event would have probably reduced me to tears. Of the six women closest to me in my family (including me) three of us - that I know of - have been sexually assaulted. I know I was reminded by that awful, casually and ignorantly done scene of what happened to me, and it's not a fun set of memories to relive when characters are repeating dialogue you've heard before and then the writers say "it was consensual" when you're a victim struggling with coming to terms with that very thing yourself.



And EG is talking about the general defence of the scene, not necessarily of poster's here comments. Also the writers have defended the scene saying it is meant to be consensual, where I severely doubt they would say that, for example, Joffrey's killing of Rose was meant to be a tragic accident and if we thought he murdered her we were mistaken despite the obvious cues otherwise. That's the defence that's being talked about.

[eldargal]

To perhaps phrase differently- EG isn't saying other people aren't affected by a person's murder, but that when a person is murdered that person doesn't have to be very careful with what TV or movies they watch because, despite the source being very different people will accidentally depict a very realistic sexual assault scene then deny they've f'ed up.
I'm saying this as someone who is a survivor like Mystery. I still can't actually say the r-word out loud, reading it makes me uncomfortable and writing it takes a lot of effort. Hell, it was a long time before I could even admit that it happened to me. I am so very grateful I had the last ep of GoT spoiled for me or accidentally seeing that scene as a total out of character out of the blue event would have probably reduced me to tears. Of the six women closest to me in my family (including me) three of us - that I know of - have been sexually assaulted. I know I was reminded by that awful, casually and ignorantly done scene of what happened to me, and it's not a fun set of memories to relive when characters are repeating dialogue you've heard before and then the writers say "it was consensual" when you're a victim struggling with coming to terms with that very thing yourself.



And EG is talking about the general defence of the scene, not necessarily of poster's here comments. Also the writers have defended the scene saying it is meant to be consensual, where I severely doubt they would say that, for example, Joffrey's killing of Rose was meant to be a tragic accident and if we thought he murdered her we were mistaken despite the obvious cues otherwise. That's the defence that's being talked about.
+1

[daboarder]

To perhaps phrase differently- EG isn't saying other people aren't affected by a person's murder, but that when a person is murdered that person doesn't have to be very careful with what TV or movies they watch because, despite the source being very different people will


And its been pointed out how that is ****ing bull**** and downplays the effect of a murder on those left behind.

So its being hypocritical as all bloody hell, which was the point

Every time she states it is fine for the series to depict the violence it does due to the "smaller" community of potential people affected by those depictions she is effectively dismissing those people on the basis of tough ****.

[Gotthammer]

Well sexual assault also affects those around that person so it's sort of the same I guess..?

[daboarder]

So I guess what?

That they are both screwed? Ill pay that.

But dont get all prancy and upset about a fictional depiction of one while having no problem with the other,

and that is and was and has been the entire frakking point.

[eldargal]

And its been pointed out how that is ****ing bull**** and downplays the effect of a murder on those left behind.

So its being hypocritical as all bloody hell

Except I've not done that, all I've done is point out the disparity in numbers. In 2011-12 there were 550 murder victims, even allowing one hundred people being traumatised by their deaths that is still less than a tenth of female rape victims in the same year. The problem is NOT that one crime is worse than the other, but that one crime leaves MILLIONS of survivors in this country alone EACH YEAR who then get to see a scene accidentally depicting rape and then have their feelings dismissed by the creators responses.

[Lord Asterion]

So I guess what?

That they are both screwed? Ill pay that.

But dont get all prancy and upset about a fictional depiction of one while having no problem with the other,

and that is and was and has been the entire frakking point.

Well, I dunno about you, but in the UK, we are warned about sexual content and violence and SHOULD be warned abut rape if it occurs in the programme, there was no warning about the rape scene.

No one is saying that violence and murder are good or lesser, they're saying that this was a rape scene, which shocked and upset people, and some fans and the writers are saying that it isn't a rape scene.

[daboarder]

Except I've not done that,



The problem with rape vs the other horrible things that happens on Game of Thrones is that all of those are either fictional entirely or so rare in the modern world that they are basically hypothetical to most people. The chance of being murdered in the UK is 1.2 in 100,000. The chance of being raped is about 1 in 5

yeah sure thing


Well, I dunno about you, but in the UK, we are warned about sexual content and violence and SHOULD be warned abut rape if it occurs in the programme, there was no warning about the rape scene.

No one is saying that violence and murder are good or lesser, they're saying that this was a rape scene, which shocked and upset people, and some fans and the writers are saying that it isn't a rape scene.

Sure and as I stated in my first post, thats a different argument. One where the fact that so many people had a problem with the scene should say just as much about us as it does the director, ie: that we dont find that the directors definition of what constitutes rape is appropriate.

Its not the depiction itself that should be the problem, as wildley already pointed out its the editing and direction of the scene (particularly that they seem to think it WASNT rape) that should be the problem.

[Lord Asterion]

Except I've not done that, all I've done is point out the disparity in numbers. In 2011-12 there were 550 murder victims, even allowing one hundred people being traumatised by their deaths that is still less than a tenth of female rape victims in the same year. The problem is NOT that one crime is worse than the other, but that one crime leaves MILLIONS of survivors in this country alone EACH YEAR who then get to see a scene accidentally depicting rape and then have their feelings dismissed by the creators responses.

AND you then get your figures questioned about the crime. Again proving just how overlooked rape is in our society.

- - - Updated - - -


yeah sure thing

I don't think that pointing out, with facts and figures to back it up, how much more common one crime is in relation to another is the same as downplaying the less common crime.

[daboarder]

I don't think that pointing out, with facts and figures to back it up, how much more common one crime is in relation to another is the same as downplaying the less common crime.

Her context for that statement was my previous question as to why now does GoT become abhorent.

Her responce was that despite all the OTHER horrendous things in the show, it doesnt effect enough people to be of a concern.....that is downplaying those other acts, its putting a finite number on how many people need to be affected before shes willing to be morally indignant, and its hypocritical.

[eldargal]

yeah sure thing
I used evidence to support what I was saying about the relative scale of the crimes in question, that is not downplaying their impact. The fact is for most people the prospect of being murdered is hypothetical. Very few people live their lives in fear of being murdered. In contrast if I want to go out with some friends we have to plan the evening to minimise our chance of being raped. Rape is a constant, ever present threat against women in our society. That doesn't make it worse than murder, it just makes it more common and it is why depictions of rape can't just be dismissed with 'well murder happens to'. When I see a murder on television I see an abstract event, something that happens but is thankfully rare. When I see a rape I see something that I have narrowly avoided having happen to myself over half a dozen times and something that has happened to many friends an acquaintances of mine. Two of whom are on this very forum posting in this very topic.

[Lord Asterion]

Her context for that statement was my previous question as to why now does GoT become abhorent.

Here responce was that despite all the OTHER horrendous things in the show, it doesnt effect enough people to be of a concern.....that is downplaying those other acts, its putting a finite number on how many people need to be affected before shes willing to be morally indignant, and its hypocritical.

I'm not going to bother arguiung with you, hopefully you'll be banned for your comments in this thread because they're horrendous.

[daboarder]

I'm not going to bother arguiung with you, hopefully you'll be banned for your comments in this thread because they're horrendous.

????

what comment?

[Lord Asterion]

????

what comment?

The ones where you try, in your limited capacity, to condescend every female commenting on this thread and then apologise to the one man who argues with you.

The ones where you down play and insult people talking about how rape effects its victims and jump on them for talking out it. Trying to shame and scare people away from discussing rape sensibly while you shout and swear and attack them.

[daboarder]

The ones where you condescend every female commenting on this and apologise to the one man who argues with you. The ones where you down play and insult people about rape and jump on them for talking out it. Trying to shame and scare people away from discussing rape sensibly while you shout and swear and attack them.

dude I dont even know who posts on here is female. And frankly I dont give a damn if they are or not. (Felt like throwing an edit in here, incase anyone else reads this: I dont care if posters are male or female because gender is irrelevant to who a person is and what that person says)

Eldargal most certainly has my condolences and sympathies for what has happened in her life, And I agree that society doesnt do nearly enough to combat or punish rape.

Im not insulting anyone about rape, or trying to downplay its significance at all. If anything its the diret opposite, its one of the most heinous and violent acts one person can do to another and is repulsive, and you'll never get me saying its not. its right up there with murder, child abuse, slavery and cannibalism in the terrible things in this show.

my point is, and has always been, that decrying a show because it depicts one of those vile acts, but not caring if it depicts the others is hypocritical.

but whatever, we are clearly rubbing each other the wrong way, so I am just going to leave it this time.

[Gotthammer]

its right up there with murder, child abuse, slavery and cannibalism in the terrible things in this show.

And the writers have defended none of these or claimed they weren't those things or that people's outrage and disgust at them was unwarranted. They did that with the other scene - and that's the problem.

[Lord Asterion]

dude I dont even know who posts on here is female. And frankly I dont give a damn if they are or not.

Eldargal most certainly has my condolences and sympathies for what has happened in her life, And I agree that society doesnt do nearly enough to combat or punish rape.

Im not insulting anyone about rape, or trying to downplay its significance at all. If anything its the diret opposite, its one of the most heinous and violent acts one person can do to another and is repulsive, and you'll never get me saying its not. its right up there with murder, child abuse, slavery and cannibalism in the terrible things in this show.

my point is, and has always been, that decrying a show because it depicts one of those vile acts, but not caring if it depicts the others is hypocritical.

I've been here a week and its pretty damn obvious.

You're an ***, plain and simple. You're patronising and going off on tagents and purposefully misintereting points to try and get across your point , which is basically that women shouldn't complain about rape being in the show.

[daboarder]

And the writers have defended none of these or claimed they weren't those things or that people's outrage and disgust at them was unwarranted. They did that with the other scene - and that's the problem.

And I've said 4 times already that I agree, that is a massive problem, a seriously disturbing problem.

The only bright side of which is that the fans have enough moral fibre to identify what the scene portrayed, even id the director didnt.

[eldargal]

I think we should all relax. The issue isn't that rape was depicted, the issue was how. An earlier scene as I've mentioned did a much better job. This one was bad not because it showed rape but because it wasn't supposed to and instead depicted a rape through ignorance and negligence on the part of the writers and that they defended it in a way they do not defend other problematic themes.

[daboarder]

I think we should all relax. The issue isn't that rape was depicted, the issue was how. An earlier scene as I've mentioned did a much better job. This one was bad not because it showed rape but because it wasn't supposed to and instead depicted a rape through ignorance and negligence on the part of the writers and that they defended it in a way they do not defend other problematic themes.

right, calming down, then yes I agree completely with this statement

[Denzark]

AND you then get your figures questioned about the crime. Again proving just how overlooked rape is in our society.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't think that pointing out, with facts and figures to back it up, how much more common one crime is in relation to another is the same as downplaying the less common crime.

The estimated population of the United Kingdom in the 2011 census was 63.182 million of whom 31.029m were men and 32.153m women.

There are NOT 6430600 (20% or 1/5 of 32153000) female rape victims in this country. There just isn't. Neither if you skew in the male figures, are there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_Kingdom


Now I am not downplaying rape or anything like it. I just think a moral compass that flashes on a rape scene that wasn't intended to be one by the director (even though it passes a quite reasonable definition of rape) but does not raise any concern about stabbing pregnant women in the belly, murder, torture, cutting men's phalluses off - is skewed.

[Gotthammer]

does not raise any concern about stabbing pregnant women in the belly, murder, torture, cutting men's phalluses off - is skewed.

And the writers have defended none of these or claimed they weren't those things or that people's outrage and disgust at them was unwarranted. They did that with the other scene - and that's the problem.

[eldargal]

Except it IS possible that the figures are that high, people just don't want to believe it. In fact if you take sexual assault in general then 1 in 5 women between 16-59 have been sexually assaulted and the figure for rape is doubtless higher as many girls don't even know that their boyfriend forcing them to have sex and so forth IS rape.

The fact is the pregnant stabbing scene WAS raised as an issue, as were all those other things. The hyper-violence of the show does NOT get a free pass, it just exists in a society where that sort of violence is thankfully rare and thus is seen as distant and more acceptable. It is still being discussed, however.

[Lord Asterion]

The estimated population of the United Kingdom in the 2011 census was 63.182 million of whom 31.029m were men and 32.153m women.

There are NOT 6430600 (20% or 1/5 of 32153000) female rape victims in this country. There just isn't. Neither if you skew in the male figures, are there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_Kingdom


Now I am not downplaying rape or anything like it. I just think a moral compass that flashes on a rape scene that wasn't intended to be one by the director (even though it passes a quite reasonable definition of rape) but does not raise any concern about stabbing pregnant women in the belly, murder, torture, cutting men's phalluses off - is skewed.

On what basis are you saying there aren't that many rape victims? Its a highly believeable figure if you look at a wide range of sources and studies, lets not just use wikipedia as a tool for this when its been shown to be a massivly hostile environment for female editors.

People have made a big deal about the level of violence, now they're makling a big deal about the rape and people (especially MRAs and such) are telling them they shouldn't complain abut rape, that the scene didn't depict rape (really? A woman telling a man that she doesn't want to have sex and then he pushes her to the ground and forces it, thats not rape?) or that rape was fine and expecting in the cultre of Westeros so we should just accept this rape scene forced on us.

[Denzark]

Oh do jog on Asterion you bore.

Wikipedia is a quick entry into a range of credible stats on crime - the Census is a bona fide UK government document as is the England and Wales crime Survey. I would ask where Wikipedia has been shown to be a massively hostile environment for female editors, to define hostile, to prove using fact and logic that that (as yet undefined by you) alleged hostility to women editors render the stats linked in that particular entry as unreliable - but I won't ask that because this is a GoT thread.

Wikipedia says the battle of Hastings was 1066. Is that wrong because of hostility to female editors? bollocks.