Astra Militarum Ld Change?

[Blood Shadow]

OK so this is entirely speculative and can be taken with a pinch of salt, but....

If the fluff for Militarum Tempestus is that these guys are as solid and determined as they come.... They are subjected to years and years of psychological conditioning, are constantly assessed, intimidated, conditioned to be essentially unwavering and they get Ld drop to 7 for regular Scion troopers....

If the rules match the fluff then can we expect a drop in the Ld of regular IG units?

[Ben_S]

I'd be pretty surprised.

[Aaron LeClair]

OK so this is entirely speculative and can be taken with a pinch of salt, but....

If the fluff for Militarum Tempestus is that these guys are as solid and determined as they come.... They are subjected to years and years of psychological conditioning, are constantly assessed, intimidated, conditioned to be essentially unwavering and they get Ld drop to 7 for regular Scion troopers....

If the rules match the fluff then can we expect a drop in the Ld of regular IG units?

ya, it looks like it they may be dropping. I am shocked the Scions don't have stubborn or Show no Fear, to fit the lore of them over normal guard units.

[The Emperor]

ya, it looks like it they may be dropping.

I don't see why you think so. They're not going to just randomly drop the Guardsman Leadership to 6. That's totally absurd.

[deinol]

And according to the fluff, marines should all be WS/BS/S/T 5 with a 2+ save. The fluff has never been that close to the rules.

Edit: I should note: The guard statline has always been the baseline the game was balanced off of. There's no way they'd change it now. Not unless GW has completely lost their senses.

[daboarder]

And according to the fluff, marines should all be WS/BS/S/T 5 with a 2+ save. The fluff has never been that close to the rules.

Edit: I should note: The guard statline has always been the baseline the game was balanced off of. There's no way they'd change it now. Not unless GW has completely lost their senses.

HAHA!

no, just no on every level.

Fantasy is based on a statline of 3s, 40k is based around the marine statline of 4s

[deinol]

HAHA!

no, just no on every level.

Fantasy is based on a statline of 3s, 40k is based around the marine statline of 4s

I come from the first edition days when 40k was based on Fantasy's statline of 3s.

The imperial guard are normal humans (ie 3), and space marines are the super humans (ie 4). Same thing really. Yes, the MEQ is the common unit in 40k, but it's all based on the original human statline.

[daboarder]

I come from the first edition days when 40k was based on Fantasy's statline of 3s.

The imperial guard are normal humans (ie 3), and space marines are the super humans (ie 4). Same thing really. Yes, the MEQ is the common unit in 40k, but it's all based on the original human statline.

good for you. But 40k has been balanced around marine costs, marine damage and marine toughness since 3rd ed

genetically toughened is 4

it gets more extreme and/or squishy from there.

thats why AP3 comes at a premium cost

[Charon]

There is no evidence to back this up.
In fact it would be stupid from a design pov as the "guard" stats house the most average dice results and have no individual special rules.

[daboarder]

There is no evidence to back this up.
In fact it would be stupid from a design pov as the "guard" stats house the most average dice results and have no individual special rules.

firstly,

There is no "average" on a single D6 roll.

Furthermore the average on multiple D6 rolls lies smack bang in the MIDDLE of 3 and 4, so your assertion would apply equally well to marines

Secondly when 3rd was released bog standard marines had no "additional special rules" either, the rules have been added as a drop in marine cost affects the entire game not just the marine codex, as such they made them more effective at a similar cost as opposed to simply making them cheaper.

finally the most common stat is 4, 3s are for "weaker" or more "fragile" units, fast is assigned I5 whereas I3 is slow, all the terminology and description in the rulebook is centered around 4

[Wolfshade]

There is no "average" on a single D6 roll.
I object!
The expected outcome (arthmetic mean or "average" if you will) is 3.5 (as you observe later), unfortunately, the probability of rolling the average value is 0...


But yes essentially I feel that 4 is the "base line", which is kinda weird that genetic super soliders are the base line measurement for everyone else...

Also, everything is conjecture until proven otherwise.

[Charon]

Hitting on 4+ means 50% hitchance (average for guard, shooting as well as melee in most cases)
Ld on 7 is also spot on average

while marines on the other hand hit on a 3+ in most cases (66% hit chance)
the 3rd edition standard marine still had ATSKNF.

The most common stat is still 3. The most common played armies are "elite" armies, but the huge majority is still at 3.

[Cutter]

OK so this is entirely speculative and can be taken with a pinch of salt, but....

If the fluff for Militarum Tempestus is that these guys are as solid and determined as they come.... They are subjected to years and years of psychological conditioning, are constantly assessed, intimidated, conditioned to be essentially unwavering and they get Ld drop to 7 for regular Scion troopers....

If the rules match the fluff then can we expect a drop in the Ld of regular IG units?

It does seem odd but deinol is correct, the fluff and the 'reality' of the rules don't always match.

[GoffWarboss]

Yeah, all stats and mechanics are based on the avergae stat of 3 in WS/BS/S/T, always has been, thats why those stats give a 50% chance to hit and such.

Sorry daboarder, but you're wrong and being an arse about it.

[daboarder]

Yeah, all stats and mechanics are based on the avergae stat of 3 in WS/BS/S/T, always has been, thats why those stats give a 50% chance to hit and such.

Sorry daboarder, but you're wrong and being an arse about it.

wrong I may be (though I am not convinced) but being an arse? sure thing buddy

[Wolfshade]

Now, now, keep it civil and please refrain from personal insults.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_bolsrules

[Dimitrios]

Dragging this back on track; There is no firm evidence, or loose rumour, that the guardman statline may be changing, however personally i wouldnt overly object! I think it is in fitting with infantry squads that they would be Ld6, and 7 with a sergent. Veterns would then be equiped like a platoon trooper, but be better soldiers (ld 7 and Bs4) and these "scions" would be veteran stats however have much better armour and weaponry.

if they did this i would expect to see a drop in the cost of the infantry squad, however we have seen pictures of the infanrt squad and it is STILL priced at 50 points... so this is a little more than wishlisting/ fearmongering.

[Charon]

if they did this i would expect to see a drop in the cost of the infantry squad, however we have seen pictures of the infanrt squad and it is STILL priced at 50 points... so this is a little more than wishlisting/ fearmongering.

While I agree on the wishlisting part, I dont think that I would warrant a drop in points as IG are rather "cheap" pointwise if you compare them.

[Chris*ta]

While I agree on the wishlisting part, I dont think that I would warrant a drop in points as IG are rather "cheap" pointwise if you compare them.

Compared to what? Orks are 6 pts, and better on so many levels.

Marines are 16 pts, but if you go point for point, marines will kill IG in either shooting or hand to hand.

IG infantry's greatest strength is that they can get more heavy and special weapons for a given point value than any other army. They can't do horde as well as Orks or Tyranids.

[Ben_S]

Edit: I should note: The guard statline has always been the baseline the game was balanced off of. There's no way they'd change it now. Not unless GW has completely lost their senses.


no, just no on every level. Fantasy is based on a statline of 3s, 40k is based around the marine statline of 4s

I don't want to re-open personal insults, but it seems to me that you're both wrong. First, if 40k were balanced, I don't know what sense it would make to say that it's balanced around one set of stats in particular: 4s are better than 3s so ought to cost more points or conversely 3s are worse than 4s and ought to cost fewer points - it amounts to the same thing. And, second, we all know that 40k is really balanced anyway, so therefore it's not balanced around either 3s or 4s!

To my knowledge, Guardsmen have always been Ld 7 since 2nd edition. Whatever the fluff might justify, I don't see that as likely to change.

[Eberk]

To my knowledge, Guardsmen have always been Ld 7 since 2nd edition. Whatever the fluff might justify, I don't see that as likely to change.

Codex Imperialis (released in 1993) -> Guardsman has Ld.7
Codex Imperial Guard (released in 1995) -> Guardsman has Ld.7
Codex Imperial Guard (released in 1999) -> Guardsman has Ld.7
Codex Imperial Guard (released in 2003) -> Guardsman has Ld.7
Codex Imperial Guard (released in 2008) -> Guardsman has Ld.7

Browsed through my old codexes so we can be sure that the Guardsmen has always been Ld.7. Hope this helps the discussion.

[Blood Shadow]

Lol this started really as a bit of a whinge that Scions got a Ld nerf that their fluff doesn't deserve. Even the Inquisition's fodder are better disciplined......

I have to wonder if the addition of the commissar was a late change removing stubborn from the basic unit....

In my mind the Ld drop could only be justified if they were nerfing the basic human stat-line. However unwanted that might be, what I'd really like is Ld 8 Storm troopers but hey :(

[Mr Mystery]

Yes. Because a well trained human should be as mentally resilient as a psychoindoctrinated post-human who has had fear removed from their mental make up. Because everyone knows that training prepares you for every eventuality, especially in a Galaxy full of various horrors.

[Blood Shadow]

Yes. Because a well trained human should be as mentally resilient as a psychoindoctrinated post-human who has had fear removed from their mental make up. Because everyone knows that training prepares you for every eventuality, especially in a Galaxy full of various horrors.

Yes or make IG Ld6 right? Commissars and Inquisitors are from the same school yet fair considerably better than a regular post human Space Marine....

[Chris*ta]

Yes or make IG Ld6 right? Commissars and Inquisitors are from the same school yet fair considerably better than a regular post human Space Marine....

Technically, Inquisitors aren't educated by the Schola Progenium, they're educated in a master/apprentice-type relationship with one (or more?) existing Inquisitors.

Inquisition Storm Troopers (or whatever they call them) are educated by the Schola Progenium, and (according to fluff I have some recall of) are the main reason for the Schola's existence. Regular Storm Troopers and Commissars are a happy byproduct.

[DarkLink]

Hitting on 4+ means 50% hitchance (average for guard, shooting as well as melee in most cases)
Ld on 7 is also spot on average

while marines on the other hand hit on a 3+ in most cases (66% hit chance)
the 3rd edition standard marine still had ATSKNF.

The most common stat is still 3. The most common played armies are "elite" armies, but the huge majority is still at 3.

Actually, ld 7 succeeds 58% of the time, not 50%.

[twrex]

orks may have a point cost of 6, but they are so much worse than the IG on a scale above 1v1. all IG special rules, orders and such, buff them considerabely. ork special rules, animosity etc. nerf them hard. my poor orks have always gotten blown apart by IG gunlines, I would love to see their base stats change, to 2's accross the board :D