Improving the standard Land Raider

[YorkNecromancer]

To quote 1D4chan's articles on the Land Raider:


The Land Raider has always been a somewhat insane beast, owing to its large weapon load and the fact that only part of this load can usually fire at a given time, making it so that it's of questionable value - this is because there are almost always better choices to do what the Land Raider can do for cost - Predators generally do better at vehicle busting or infantry killing, and the main use of the Land Raider is as a transport vehicle for Terminators and getting them right into the heart of the battle, which is kind of lopsided with its heavy armament: 2 sets of twin-linked lascannons and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Carries 10 (it was 12 in 5th edition until it got changed). You'd think its good for tank hunting. You'd be wrong. It's just too expensive for that. Land Raiders need to be transporting stuff, and running forward at great speeds. This Land Raider is a confused beast, best left alone. If you want a little bit more reasoning for why the classic Land Raider is comparatively useless, here's a bit more explanation: for the cost of having it on the table, this Land Raider needs to be able to do both of its roles effectively at the same time, but since transporting soldiers doesn't work well with standing up front and shooting too, there's no real way to make this one as effective as it needs to be.

I've never fielded a standard Land Raider for these exact reasons. Basically, a Land Raider Crusader beats a standard Land Raider as an IFV, so why ever bother taking a standard one?

At the end of the day, the TL lascannon/H Bolter combo is basically a holdout from 1st ed 40K, where both weapon systems performed significantly differently (i.e: following fire made Heavy Bolters wound like a Furioso dreadnought with blood talons, and there was no such thing as TL, meaning you just got two lascannon shots per sponson).So: can the Land Raider loadout be improved?

You've got three weapon points: one forward arc, two sponsons. Sponsons are not turrets remember - they are designed for trench warfare, to fire down the trenches while soldiers pour our either side.

Frankly, I think the Crusader already has the best loadout, but could we be missing out? I personally like the idea of quad heavy bolter sponsons for infantry suppression while advancing, and a TL multimelta in the front arc for close-range tank killing.

Any other ideas? Suggestions should bear the role of the tank in mind.

[DarkLink]

All Land Raiders are pretty massively overpriced, really.

[Blood Shadow]

I've always loved Landraiders, yes their points cost makes your army centred around it and though nowadays I prefer the storm raven, like the storm raven they have tactical flexibility and threaten an opponent on several fronts. Even now they can be difficult to deal with.

[This Dave]

The standard Land Raider isn't a bad light/medium vehicle killer thanks to its PotMS letting it shoot at two different targets. It also lets you shoot at full BS with one even moving 12" which can be useful. And the twin linking means that shooting snap shots isn't quite as bad. The high all around armor and 4 HPs make it decently survivable. It's only real drawback is the high cost.

Things that can currently be done to make it better unfortunately make it cost more. In an Inquisition force taking Psybolt rounds make the Heavy Bolters decent at killing light armor transports. And if you do that adding a Storm Bolter becomes decent as it is strength 5. Putting a Multimelta on it also makes it a better vehicle killer as you can then fire two hard hitting weapons into the same side arc.

One thing that would really help the standard Land Raider is if GW did away with Twin Linking and just make the two weapons fire as two weapons. More chances to hit, damage, and wound.

[ElectricPaladin]

The land raider terminus ultra is a good example of what the "classic" land raider should be. It's insane cost is justified by a truly stupid number of lascannons, and its durability is meant to allow it to act as mobile artillery - it stays in the backfield and doesn't bother to get out of the way, it just sits still and fires all its guns at anything that you absolutely, positively want to die right now. And, it doesn't bother to carry troops.

Another possibility would be a somewhat less insane land raider that carries a smaller number of soldiers in power armor... in other words, designed to protect a demi-tac squad so they can hop out and claim a backfield objective or hold a techmarine and his servitors to keep the thing in working order from the inside. Justify the reduced carrying capacity by reducing the point cost, increasing the number of lascannons (or other high-power armaments, like plasma cannons), or a little of both.

I agree, though, that land raider crusaders are brilliant. I have two of them, and I have never regretted not trying to magnetize them to be "classics." Given that I play with the Blood Angels 'dex and tend to prefer vehicles that can shoot on the run if they have to (snap shoots from hurricane bolters stand a good chance of dealing a wound or two to most units, in my experience), I've never regretted eschewing the redeemer, either, so maybe I'm altogether too in love with my crusaders.

[Tyrendian]

ForgeWorld does several things to improve the Land Raider...
more... well everything? Spartan
less transport but more durability and different (rather neat imho) weapons? Achilles
Quad HB plus support capabilities? Prometheus
cheaper? Proteus

[Arkhan Land]

I agree but given the newer vehicle rules its still real nasty to get an LR popped in a single blow, not that its not a fluffy impossibility.


this next part is going to go waaaaaay out there on a limb, everybody keep in mind I've been hanging with slaneesh hard tonight so dont take this tooo seriously but...

I think in order for GW to rectify this situation, make money, and keep things fresh they should add a unique character/sprue through digital release or maybe even through rules in white dwarf if they really felt like giving something cool to the community without gouging them (so im thinking digital release for $).
This release could represent a specific Tech-marine tasked with maintenance of the Raiders within the armoury and unlocks the ability to grant them upgrades some general, some unique or this could also be done without said model simply as a RAIDERS YEAH sort of release and done simply with a single plastic sprue of upgrades maybe similar to the chaos vehicles one, either way onto upgrade ideas)

Generic
1)Ceramite
2)Grants Stubborn Bubble 6", I mean, come on this is the OG fist of the emperor

unique
1) Void/Field Sheilding of some sort, maybe not a full blown 12 but an 11 or a ten
2) It will not die/The ability to take Explodes/Destroyed results instead as D3 Hull Points, in a sense always granting them the ability to go on after a penetrating blow

what else would other people change?

[ElectricPaladin]

I agree but given the newer vehicle rules its still real nasty to get an LR popped in a single blow, not that its not a fluffy impossibility.


this next part is going to go waaaaaay out there on a limb, everybody keep in mind I've been hanging with slaneesh hard tonight so dont take this tooo seriously but...

I think in order for GW to rectify this situation, make money, and keep things fresh they should add a unique character/sprue through digital release or maybe even through rules in white dwarf if they really felt like giving something cool to the community without gouging them (so im thinking digital release for $).
This release could represent a specific Tech-marine tasked with maintenance of the Raiders within the armoury and unlocks the ability to grant them upgrades some general, some unique or this could also be done without said model simply as a RAIDERS YEAH sort of release and done simply with a single plastic sprue of upgrades maybe similar to the chaos vehicles one, either way onto upgrade ideas)

Generic
1)Ceramite
2)Grants Stubborn Bubble 6", I mean, come on this is the OG fist of the emperor

unique
1) Void/Field Sheilding of some sort, maybe not a full blown 12 but an 11 or a ten
2) It will not die/The ability to take Explodes/Destroyed results instead as D3 Hull Points, in a sense always granting them the ability to go on after a penetrating blow

what else would other people change?

I would be very leery of anything that basically makes a land raider into a pocket superheavy, like the imperial knights. While I see how that would be fun and could match some of the depictions of land raiders in some of the fiction, think of all the bellyaching we're already having to live through around both the knights and any kind of superheavy in standard 40k. It just isn't worth either the balancing headache.

I also think that "support bubbles" are a very difficult game effect to balance. The existence of overlapping support bubbles - in the form of various kinds of spells - is part of what makes WarmaHordes such a combo-focused, list-focused, and therefore non-tactical (ie. it matters more what you bring than how you play it) game. I'm not saying that support bubbles are bad, exactly. I'm sitting here with my enormous Dropzone Commander army on my right and the command cards for said army on my left. However, they do need to be implemented very carefully.

That said, I actually do like the idea of land raiders - and perhaps other vehicles - granting modest support bubbles as a way to make them more appealing. Codex Marines get a Stubborn bubble. Blood Angels get... not Furious Charge, because we already have too many sources for that, maybe an "all characters have Rampage?" bubble or a Counter-Attack bubble? The Space Wolves can get a Furious Charge bubble. And maybe Chaos's land raiders could be marked, and have four different bubbles based on which mark you put on the vehicle.

Eh, you know what? I'm totally in favor of the "inspirational vehicle" rule for land raiders. And I'd say it's so nifty, that those big vehicles that aren't overpriced should get a small price bump and have a similar rule added to them. Hammerheads grant nearby Fire Warriors Preferred Enemy. Ork thingies (I don't know the Ork codex) give Hatred. Necron doodads that make resurrection easier. And so on. It would definitely both bring tanks back and provide incentive for them to be protected.

[Auticus]

I don't think that the land raider is over priced. Rather I think there is just a lot of stuff UNDER priced so in comparison the land raider looks over priced.

[DrBored]

I don't think Land Raiders are that overpriced on their own. AV 14 all around? Even with no armaments, you've gotta add points to a transport that has that kind of survivability. Then there's the weapons.. twin-linked lascannons are anti-every-vehicle. Even shooting up at fliers, you've got twin-linked working for you to get those str 9 ap 2 shots to land, and they've got great range. On its own, the Land Raider is actually quite nice. You add the Heavy Bolter, you add a Combi-weapon, or for Chaos you can even add a Havoc Launcher and just sit somewhere and shoot a lot of things.

Of course, the Space Marine one gets even better with Power of the Machine Spirit, turning that 200 point behemoth into something that can target different squads with its different weapons. You don't have to worry how it's turned, all sides are AV14!

How could we improve it? Well, why would you want to? It serves specific tactical roles. I don't want the Land Raider to become the end-all be-all of lists. If it becomes the hot object that's super efficient, and everyone starts taking them in their lists.. well, how would that feel? Instead of complaining that it's 'overpriced' or 'not competitive' people will moan about it being too powerful, too awesome, too hard to deal with. Because, really, most lists these days can't deal with AV14. Don't try to argue that point. They just can't.

The Land Raider could use one neat thing. A single fire point up at the top would be very nice. It's got the top hatches for it, and that would make the squad inside more tactically viable and variable as you'd be able to actually fire that extra special weapon at something totally different, giving you 3 different targets if you're Space Marines, and at least 2 if you're Chaos.

[This Dave]

That's kind of the thing though. The standard Land Raider is 250 points not 200. The Crusader and Redeemer variants carry more troops and while they have shorter range weapons they have a lot more anti infantry and almost as much anti vehicle firepower. All this makes the other variants more attractive in most cases than the standard one.

In fact, the Storm Raven is cheaper, carry more troops, a lot more maneuverable, and pack almost as much firepower. While it has less armor it is as survivable if not more than a Land Raider because it's a Flyer. If I want a tank destroyer I take one of these even though I have a couple Land Raiders.

[Infinite Freedom]

The standard Land Raider was a great anti-air unit in the previous codex and still is in this one. Plus your practically guaranteed a wound on a monstrous creature.

[hisdudeness]

I believe the only way to make the standard LR an option over the other variants would be to allow just about any weapon on any hard point and be twin linked.

Make it completely customizable to fit in any role the player needs for his list. You want TL Autocannons on the sides and plasma up front...do it!!!

[Tyrendian]

I believe the only way to make the standard LR an option over the other variants would be to allow just about any weapon on any hard point and be twin linked.

Make it completely customizable to fit in any role the player needs for his list. You want TL Autocannons on the sides and plasma up front...do it!!!

while the Tech-Priest would likely burn you for that, a "Land Raider Executioner" throwing lots of plasma death in yo face sounds rather stylish...

[Grey Mage]

What would I do to balance the Deimos?

For starters Id give godhammer lascannons a pair of firing modes- either Twin Linked or two shots, not twin linked. Adds a wee bit of flexibility.

Id give it an auto-targetting heavy bolter, causing it to always fire on the closest infantry model within LOS and Range, at BS3. Upgradable to a TLMM for +15pts, that always targets vehicles first.

An option for frag assault launchers. +20pts.

And a "Telemetry Coordinator Array" which would allow chapter masters or anyone else with an orbital strike to reroll the scatter dice and use the LRs BS if its in LOS of said landraider the character is embarked on.

And finally, bump the transport capacity back to 12.

[Tyrendian]

For starters Id give godhammer lascannons a pair of firing modes- either Twin Linked or two shots, not twin linked. Adds a wee bit of flexibility.

that's no flexibility - two shots are just plain always better under any circumstances


Id give it an auto-targetting heavy bolter, causing it to always fire on the closest infantry model within LOS and Range, at BS3. Upgradable to a TLMM for +15pts, that always targets vehicles first.

where's the benefit in that? that's what PotMS is for, if anything...

[Linl]

Guys i think the raider is more than awesome. Lets start what can actually kill a raider and with the word "actually" i mean to explode or immobilize that beast with a chance to do it more than 50% without cover save
1) 3 Meltas in melta range
2) Haywire shots
3) Smash and armor bane attacks
4) Lots Str 10 attacks (or Lots of str 10 ord)
5) Lances
In all situations 1-4 there is something common they must be close Very close to the raider (except 4 b)
So to do it someone with efficiency (not turn 3 or 4) must make a cheap fast and dedicated Tank Buster unit to trade it with the raider and 2slow
the passengers.They are many units with scouts melta deep strike etc etc.Well inthose cases the choise s easy premeasure the distance save your raider and win the game.Now what can do with the real problem about raider killers dark eldar and the melta -pod etc etc. (4b-5) well in those circumstances u must rely on ur pod(s) and on ur techmarine to "beef up" your cover save a 3+ cover it really pain in the head
Now lets see how 2 use a raider.The difficult part is 2
a) Avoid tarpit units
b) Always be sure 2 annihilate the unit u make the assalt (so to charge again the next turn)
c) When you judge its time 2 assault destroy the transport vehicle so they can't escape
Use that and deliver some democracy guys

[DarkLink]

For starters Id give godhammer lascannons a pair of firing modes- either Twin Linked or two shots, not twin linked. Adds a wee bit of flexibility.

Firing two shots is always, always, always, always, always better.

[Mr Mystery]

For my ha'penny, the bog standard Landraider is the tank of choice in smaller games, say up to 1,000 points.

Whilst not cheap in itself, it brings a lot to the table. Solid anti-tank, bunker when needed, additional anti-infantry, and a ride to the front line. Add it's resilience and your enemy ought to have a hard time stopping it with the weapons available.

Bigger than that, and it just doesn't do all those things well enough compared to more specialised choices.

[Maelstorm]

For my forces - I bring a Land Raider Helios; 2x Twin Linked Lascannons, with the added bonus of Skyfire, Interceptor and Heat-seaking on the top-mounted Missile Launcher. Toss a Techmarine inside to keep it firing from the back lines... :)

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I can say for me you wouldn't even need a rules tweak just a points cost. that thing as it stands now should be 200pts maybe even less. If you want the other land raiders to cost a bit more i would not object to that but for the godhammer it just needs a points drop like 40-50 pts easily and then it would be a great tank.

I can say i still use them now in both loyalist and chaotic factions their just harder and harder to justify their points tax just to take them.