What is your view on a player with knock offs?

[StingrayP226]

Ok so I'm finally considering jumping back into 40k after 8? (or 6 can't remember) years of not playing. However what faction catches my eye? Imperial Guard Elysian Jump Troops (I love the concept of Airborne so ya)... of coarse I find a way to make the already expensive 40k hobby more expensive. Go me....

Anyway looking on Forge World and having my heart almost stop when seeing the 10 man squads costing over $60 a piece (shipping not included) I know I'm in trouble especially since I'm guessing I'm going to be needing at least 4 of those plus command squads then we can discuss Valkyries. While chatting with a local 40k player he basically told me about one of those Chinese knock off sites to get the troops (but buy the actual Valkyries and kits GW makes in the store itself).

Now being a Battletech player I'm no stranger to repros as its a problem there as well, and being anti-repro stance there I'm uncomfortable just ordering a bunch of knock offs because of my Battletech background. However when I said this the player replied basically his opinion was repros of GW kits (like the ones you can buy is stores) is very heavily frowned upon, but kits of FW stuff like the troops that are heavily "overpriced" is a bit more acceptable. Still I'm very unsure how I feel... buying knock offs feels uncomfortable but might be the ONLY way I can build an army within a reasonable amount of time.

Ok sorry long explanation to ask this question:

How would you feel about a player who walked in with a Elysian/Death Corps of Krieg/Other FW Army where the FW only troops (or very high count needed models) were repros, while they had legitimate Tanks/Models that are purchasable in a store?

I know the legal side of this but I just wanted to see how the community as a whole sees this... hopefully I'm not opening pandora's box of arguments.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd explain that knock offs are shonky, and help drive up prices of legitimate products.

[SquigBrain]

Buy them from companies that actually sculpt their own stuff, IMHO. 3rd party is fine, and sometimes even great. But not people that just straight out make molds of GW/FW models.

[lævus]

I've picked up a few things at auction from eBay that I'm pretty sure were re-casts, can't say for sure, came in a FW bag but with no sticker on and something just felt a little wrong with them. It was a little irritating but it wasn't going to stop me from using the parts I wanted.
As long as they aren't AWFUL casts (in which case why would you want them anyway), the question of 'how would an opponent feel playing against you' would never come up if you were playing with a painted army, as they would never know.
That just leaves your conscience to deal with, which is, well... an entirely different matter. I'd never intentionally buy a re-cast, but the 'questionable' parts I've received at points have never been so terrible that I'd throw them away, therefore who would I be to deny you using something that I may well have done myself, all be it by accident.

[MajorWesJanson]

I have bought recasts, but at the same time I have bought a lot directly from FW (Including a Reaver and a warhound), and I buy stuff from my FLGS to support them as well.

I won't buy anything Chapterhouse though. Picked up a couple things early on, and the poor quality plus the company's attitude has put me off buying from them again. Even if I do want a Storm Raven extension.

And things like the Void Shield Generator, that were heavily limited and a massive chuck bought up by resellers to make huge profits off of, those are fair game.

[Erik Setzer]

My first though is... how would I know?

But honestly... I don't care. Where a person wants to spend their money is their business. I wouldn't care if you used models from another manufacturer even (I can't remember the name of the one company right now, but I think of the one that makes units of 20 Dwarfs or 30 Witch Elves for just under $50 US and they look really nice), the only problem there is that I typically play in a GW store and you can't use them in that store (for obvious reasons). I've used models from other manufacturers before. I also love some of the bits other companies make, especially Kromlech for example, but you have to actually buy the base GW models to use their bits (though they do sell entire models for some units; if you want to use those, go for it!).

I buy my models straight from local stores, including the GW store... but I will also at times buy a bulk collection of models off of someone, too. That's how I choose to spend my money. How you choose to spend yours is up to you. If you paid for the models, I'm not going to say you can't use them. If you paint them (or even prime them, it'll be practically impossible to tell. All I want to do is roll dice and have a good time.

- - - Updated - - -

As for Chapter House... I'll have to look up what their "attitude" is. But if I was GW, well, I wouldn't go nuts going after these companies making bits to add to GW models, since in the vast majority of situations you have to buy a GW kits (giving GW the same money you would have given them anyway) before you can use the stuff from these other companies. If they want to make that money themselves, they can produce similar pieces and charge less (ha!), thus keeping people buying straight from them. CH might be a special case, though. But that's how I view Kromlech, though. I know I'm okay using Orks with Kromlech bits in the local GW store, but at Warhammer World (the place where everyone insists we must treat their rules as "official" when arguing that Escalation et al are a permanent part of 40K that isn't optional), you wouldn't be able to use them, because there's a non-GW bit on the model, and any non-GW bits make a model unusable at Warhammer World.

[lævus]

you wouldn't be able to use them, because there's a non-GW bit on the model, and any non-GW bits make a model unusable at Warhammer World.

I've always wondered where the line is drawn with this, if I 'scratch build' parts like armour plating for my tanks or bionic limbs replacing portions of Space Marines using Evergreen scale models (a third party company that I'm giving money to, to add to my GW miniatures) styrene parts, how is that really any different to if I cut up some, say Kromlech bionic parts and fit them on my Marines rather than buying the Iron hands upgrade kit?
What about the Dragonforge power cables, I mean I could have bought one of many kits like the Dreadknight FULL of powercables to use, but I went away from GW, however I can't see anyone complaining about that.
I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but there has to be an invisible line somewhere, right?

[Sly]

The only thing I have a bit of a problem with (heh) is the actual copied knock-off of the same FW or GW miniature. Scratch-built is fine, or with separately-designed parts, as is using figures from other companies either in place of or to convert GW ones.

That said, on eBay if you buy used armies as I do, you don't really know if you're getting original FW pieces or Chinese knockoffs, especially if they're painted. So I could see someone having knockoffs and knot knowing it.

[lobster-overlord]

To the OP. Are you defining knock-offs as 3rd party similar items, like using Wargames Factory Shocktroops for DKK, or are you speaking of bootlegs, like yoymart where they are direct recastings of Forgeworld and GW items?

To the point of knockoffs, I use them all the time. Void/Urban Mammoth, All of Mantics stuff, and Wargames Factory are all acceptable knock offs to be used. If you are against someone using a bootleg/repro item, how are you going to know if it is or not?

John M>

[Lexington]

If they were painted, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell they were recasts in the first place - I've seen product from most of the major recasters, and they're all as good as and often better than ForgeWorld's average output.

In the spirit of the original question, nah. No problem.

[Mr Mystery]

And if we all took that approach, the designers of the game would go out of business.

Want the toys? Pay the toy maker.

I'm dead against piracy of any kind (except Arrr! pirates, who remain cool)

[Denzark]

Mmm. If you can't tell when painted you can't tell. A lot of these are poorly cast. What is worse - a western capitalist business selling luxury items at high mark ups, but giving us the 40K universe - or some poxy Chinese copies thumbing their nose at our laws and stealing from our businesses?

Only you'll know in the end.

[daboarder]

I know a number of people who would never have started the game if they hadn't been able to get a starting army cheap by buying a few nock offs, now they buy plastic GW kits for the customization

so in that regard those are saes GW would never have had without cheaper versions.

as for myself...

the only knock offs I would consider wwere if it was a good cast of some of the old limited edition models that are OOP, in that case I've got no problem going for a recast as GW no longer produces the original.

something else to consider is personal re-casts.

For example, unless plastic sisters of battle ome out soon then a friend and I will be converting some of the metal modles to make masters and re-casting them.

This is both completely legal and morally sound.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Some years ago I did actually consider making a mould and making my own recasts (for PERSONAL USE) of the old OOP Piscean Warrior, then converting the recasts into different poses and doing a killteam of Pisceans. I cant see the harm in something like that personally.

[Harley]

I wonder how many of those here who disdain Chinese recasts or knock offs have used non-name brand Cotton Swabs "Q-tips", or wore 4 striped "Adidas" look-a-like athletic shoes or pants. Perhaps ate store brand generic Honey O's cereal, made a phone call on a Samsung phone rather than a iPhone, or borrowed a videogame/movie from a friend and never returned it.

Not really interested in a debate about morals and piracy, but it's funny to think how thin are the glass houses we all live in everyday. :D

[SquigBrain]

I wonder how many of those here who disdain Chinese recasts or knock offs have used non-name brand Cotton Swabs "Q-tips", or wore 4 striped "Adidas" look-a-like athletic shoes or pants. Perhaps ate store brand generic Honey O's cereal, made a phone call on a Samsung phone rather than a iPhone, or borrowed a videogame/movie from a friend and never returned it.

Not really interested in a debate about morals and piracy, but it's funny to think how thin are the glass houses we all live in everyday. :D

I'm not sure that you can claim a Q-Tip is an intellectual or artistic property. And none of the items you list are an actual component-for-component copy. To me, it's a pretty obvious line.

A more valid comparison would be buying bootleg DVDs.

In the end, I just don't think it's good for the hobby overall. While I think the 3rd party companies making their own models, conversion bits, etc, just make things better.

[daboarder]

Well a samsung phone was ruled as an ip breach so hes got that one right...

[silashand]

Don't care. The only reason knock offs even exist is because of GW's obscene prices in a lot of cases. Frankly I could care less where people want to spend their money. If they want to take a chance on wonky recasts that's up to them. JMO though...

[Orange]

Looking at the reviews places like Yoymart get I would have no issue with using their products. I just placed an order for a box of XV8's to see the quality and will order more based off of the quality.

I would have no issue using reproductions or my opponent using them against me. I want to play games, I couldn't give a damn.

[desert_hack]

Yeah I have an entire horus heresy army that is recast. However you can't tell the difference and I rarely tell anyone I don't know that well. There's a lot of GW purists out there who will publicly harangue you.

[Mr Mystery]

I wonder how many of those here who disdain Chinese recasts or knock offs have used non-name brand Cotton Swabs "Q-tips", or wore 4 striped "Adidas" look-a-like athletic shoes or pants. Perhaps ate store brand generic Honey O's cereal, made a phone call on a Samsung phone rather than a iPhone, or borrowed a videogame/movie from a friend and never returned it.

Not really interested in a debate about morals and piracy, but it's funny to think how thin are the glass houses we all live in everyday. :D

Hey! You just totally described me.

No. Really. You did.

[Darren Richardson]

Those who Purchase reproduction items from China are participating in a crime, this hurts the company whose items are being knocked off which then means that company, because of the loss of sales will have to drive their prices up even further, thus driving more knockoff sales, until such a point that the company goes bankrupt.

Of course when you buy items off ebay you will always be taking a risk on where the product was made, China is reknowned for it's counterfitting, which almost always is poor quaility and the materials used can be quite hazardous to your health as they don't have Quaility Control for these knockoffs.

Now it's a different matter when it comes to liencesed geuinine products that China makes for the big companies.

Myself I will NEVER actively seek to purchase knockoffs from China, I might end up with one or two peices from purchases from ebay from the bulk lots I usually buy, that to me isn't my fault if the seller commited such an unlawful thing as buying pirated products.

In the end if you are buying reproduced items that the makers don't have the right to make you are purpetuating the vicious circle of counterfitting and you should be ashamed of yourselves as your actions make GW raise their prices even higher to compensate the loss in sales and you will ultimatly kill this company by doing so, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day....

Now 3rd Party parts that are used for conversion are a differnt matter, as long as they are not direct copies but are similar enough in style to be compatible with GW miniatures and represent the figures you are converting other figures to represent, then that is a different kettle of fish, in the Model Kit industry there has been 3rd party manafacturers since Model Kits begain, and such a businnes is LEGAL.

So In summery:

Knock Offs are bad and you are commiting a crime by accessory to theft = bad for everyone.
3rd party compatible components manafacturers is legal = good for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -


I wonder how many of those here who disdain Chinese recasts or knock offs have used non-name brand Cotton Swabs "Q-tips", or wore 4 striped "Adidas" look-a-like athletic shoes or pants. Perhaps ate store brand generic Honey O's cereal, made a phone call on a Samsung phone rather than a iPhone, or borrowed a videogame/movie from a friend and never returned it.

Non branded items such as Q-tips are fine, as those items are either patentless or out of copyright, "adidas" look alike items withj 4 stripes isntead of "Adidas" trademarked 3 stripes are legal as long as the "Adidas" logo was not on the item, if the logo was on it then it's IP infringement and illeagal, generic own brand products are legal, many of those products are similar in recipe but not identical to the branded products recipes, so most of your statement doesn't apply to this case.

[Psychosplodge]

Well a samsung phone was ruled as an ip breach so hes got that one right...

Only in the US after it got thrown of court here and found in reverse in Korea iirc...

[Wolfshade]

I think that we need to de-liminate two different parts.

1. 3rd party retailers who sell "compatible" 28mm scale table-top war games. These are perfectly fine in my opinion.

2. Re-casts. These are not. This is a hobby, it is not like you need these items to survive. You have no entitlement to own these things so re-casts are ineffect theft. As fro re-casting for private use, I do not want to get into the legality of that here by I believe that there are different laws dpending on where you are in the world.

[Anggul]

Only in the US after it got thrown of court here and found in reverse in Korea iirc...

Indeed, that entire thing was a joke.

As for harming GW, it harms GW just as much to buy second hand from ebay and other players. GW still aren't getting money for their new product, it's just their old stuff being sold around between customers. As said by others, the only reason people buy knock-offs is that GW charge pretty silly money. If they didn't, these knock-off producers would have no business. I've never bought from them personally, but I don't think GW do a good job of giving anyone reason to do otherwise. I've seen some great casts from such companies so GW can't use the 'quality' argument. They do a much better job than Forgeworld most of the time.

GW need to up their game and stop screwing about if they want people to shop with them. I still do, but many don't and they have their reasons.

[Tudd Fudders]

I just made a profile for this. I lurk alot on here and really been into this subject with counterfeit goods for a long time.

I bought my Dark Vengeance set, IG battleforce, and made friends while doing it. Still buy several items from my local GW of official products.

Eventually I wanted to get into more specialized things and naturally FW provided. Ofcourse I don't have to mention the prices, but they are severely inflated, especially for the shipping (Seriously, ordering from the Ukraine is cheaper and faster).

I've been to China twice and I already figured there be knock-offs at this point. I've made purchases from one of my sites that I've used in the past. And to be clear, I would have never purchased these FW items at the current price. The quality isn't 100%, but it's good and it kept me interested in the hobby, all while still buying legit products and not shelving the game.

I have a friend who actually works in these types of manufacturing factories like Foxconn. They work for a pretty low wage, but gain skills on how to make a gaming controller/headphones, take the spare parts they get, and put it together and sell it for themselves. I can tell you with alot of things (Beats), they are no different from the "real" thing. Sometimes better, because you can get unique colors, specialized accessories, etc.

Is it wrong? Yes, but instead of dismissing it companies need to realize alot of this is a consequence of their company's decisions. From either outsourcing to a foreign country in the short term for profit and not looking into the copyright laws of said country, or sometimes having an outrageous pricing scheme that makes it almost impossible for some people to afford their product. I was pretty surprised to find out GW and FW actually outsourced to China for model making, but it explains alot.

Yesterday I put an order in for two Scion squads, at $70 for 10 models... I could have easily waited a week and probably get something from my china source for like $30 free shipping at about 85% quality. The reason I do it is because I care about my local GW and personally enjoy the owner and people there and want to support keeping that open. It just sucks the company overall isn't like that and tends to try to distance itself from logic.

TLDR version

Pirating like this will always exist unless companies make their service more convenient then what a pirate can offer. Also Companies need to stop thinking exploiting low wage countries doesn't have any consequences. If you pirate, still support the creators somehow, because their ideas are worth something.

[Wolfshade]

I was pretty surprised to find out GW and FW actually outsourced to China for model making, but it explains alot.

This is wrong. GW do not manufacture in China, they did but this was wrapped up at the end of 2010. It is covered in the 2011 Priliminary results.


Product and supply. This includes the design and manufacture of the products and incorporates
production facilities in the UK, North America and until November 2010 in China.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Preliminary-announcement-2011.pdf

[Tudd Fudders]

This is wrong. GW do not manufacture in China, they did but this was wrapped up at the end of 2010. It is covered in the 2011 Priliminary results.



http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Preliminary-announcement-2011.pdf

Doesn't really change their pricing situation or how they treat their customers. True Religon jeans manufactures in US, but they also have knock offs. It's just easier for disgruntled factory workers to copy something they make everyday. Though their just ripped up/stylized jeans, so not that hard to make yourself.

Also,

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/an-inside-look-at-limited-edition-void.html


And I noticed some things:
1) On the box it's written: "Made in China" (All plastik kit were always Made in UK before)

Looks like they changed their mind.

[Denzark]

So if I can take a midway summary between both sides:

Knockoffs are an essential and obvious consequence of GW's prices - they are therefore responsible themselves as such it is OK

and

This is a non-essential luxury items. Knockoffs are theft at all levels, drive up prices for the rest of us and are the province of immoral lazy people.

Further:

Recasts (especially of old OOP stuff) is OK.
Receiving stuff unwittingly off ebay or similar is OK because you have not tried to source knockoffs.
3rd party accessories are not the same as knockoffs.

[Wolfshade]

Doesn't really change their pricing situation or how they treat their customers. True Religon jeans manufactures in US, but they also have knock offs. It's just easier for disgruntled factory workers to copy something they make everyday. Though their just ripped up/stylized jeans, so not that hard to make yourself.

Also,

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/an-inside-look-at-limited-edition-void.html



Looks like they changed their mind.


No, no, oncve again. The only production facilities are the UK and USA. (latest half year results: http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2013-14-Press-statement-final-released.pdf)

Now the made in china may very well be in relation to the box it came in, printed, cut in china and shipped to the uk/usa for putting the model in.

As for the price, well yes of course we would love cheaper stuff and re-casts should be a fraction of the price. GW profit is only 13% of their revenues, that means that the overwhelming revenue is just covering costs. To put it another way, for every box of scions you buy GW make £2.73. If GW cut prices across the board by 10%, fixed costs remain the same, their profit drops to 3% or 63p per box of scions.

They cannot really afford to drop prices much more. Certainly, they might be able to do things internally to improve efficiences and stuff.

But consider the costs of GW (or any manufacturer/retailer) and the small reproduction.

The copier requires no original talent, but enough opporutintly/raw materials to copy the item and send it out by post. Their costs are the postage, the raw materials.

GW needs to pay people to come up with the original content, they need to pay for a place for them to work, they need to pay for heating, lighting, electricity, they need to pay for all the raw materials, the national insurance of the employees, the pension contributions of the employees, tax to the governement, public liability insurance, they need to cover the costs of the sales teams, the manufactures, the finance department, the web team, the play testers, the legal team (whether or not that is effective use of money is not for this discussion), the board of directors, staff training and development, writers, editors and a whole host of other things.

[Tudd Fudders]

I'm not saying they don't deserve money, I really do enjoy their products and ideas alot, but to be honest they are a dying company. In 5 years 3D printers will put them out unless they do something innovative like sell templates. It's pretty obvious from a financial view they are going for short-term profits and trying to push the financial problems off for a few more years while they can still return with their traditional system.

You know why people don't pirate video games often even when its dead free? Because services like Steam, Humble Bundle, and even Origin make updating/playing the game more convenient. Same thing with Spotify or Netflix. Now I realise GW is a completely different company with manufacturing and R&D they have to pay for, but there is somethings they could do to atleast put more spirit into the hobby. Or atleast improve PR instead of where they are now and have people feel no guilt for buying a off-hand model. Selling several short "codexs" is one thing that isn't improving that view for me personally.

I don't want them to die, I don't want my local GW store to go out of business, but sometimes it has been really hard to buy something just simply because nothing is interesting or have the rules to make it desirable. I think they can bounce back, but they would really have to change.

Also it's really kinda naive to think only the box was made in China and not the model also. Not saying it isn't possible, but really?

[Wolfshade]

Games are pirated loads, football manager 2013 was pirated 10.1 million times.


While the developer said it would "be ridiculous to think" that every illegal download equated to one lost sale of the game, he estimated that 176,000 sales were lost to pirating, and that 1.74 percent of downloaders would have potentially purchased Football Manager 2013 had the cracking software not been available. Putting it in tangible terms, Jacobson equated the lost sales to $3.7 million in revenue that Sports Interactive and publisher Sega won't see.

That figure then baulks in comparison that as of May 2013 it had only sold 940,000 copies in the US and Europe.

Now that is huge if you ask me. But as you say there is a big difference between pirating electronic stuff and physical stuff.

I think you do hint at the big problem. In order to keep going GW needs to produces something that is interesting or have desirable rules to make it interesting. That all comes down to personal choice, I really like the look of the new scions and taurox, but I know people who really don't. One thing is for certain, to grow GW needs to do something different and hopefully better.

[Tudd Fudders]

Games are pirated loads, football manager 2013 was pirated 10.1 million times.



That figure then baulks in comparison that as of May 2013 it had only sold 940,000 copies in the US and Europe.

Now that is huge if you ask me. But as you say there is a big difference between pirating electronic stuff and physical stuff.

I think you do hint at the big problem. In order to keep going GW needs to produces something that is interesting or have desirable rules to make it interesting. That all comes down to personal choice, I really like the look of the new scions and taurox, but I know people who really don't. One thing is for certain, to grow GW needs to do something different and hopefully better.

Yep agree.

As for the football manager situation, they still sell a ton of copies while being on a nice service like steam. I think the large piracy problem is just their customer base. Sports fans that play games probably won't care to support their developers like a RPG player would.

[Learn2Eel]

Personally I don't care where or what you bought your models from. As long as I know what everything is - i.e. that model there is supposed to be a Space Marine Captain, that model there is supposed to be an Imperial Guard Commissar, etc - then I have zero issues with it. If you are using knock offs that usually means the GW prices aren't workable for you, so I don't feel I would have a right to complain as a player.

[Wolfshade]

It seems that there are people who have issues with forgeries, it seems that it is more of an issue with these companies/individuals rather than the people that use it.

[Mr Mystery]

Bit of both for me, but mostly the former.

But the latter? Those knowingly buying them? What makes them so special that they feel they can fund a criminal enterprise with some handwavium interwebular nonsensical justification?

[clively]

I won't buy recasts as I believe that blatantly mass producing someone else's work and presenting it as your own is just plain wrong and I refuse to support that. Price is not an issue with my moral view on this. If GW jacks the prices to the point that I'm unwilling to buy a particular model from them then I won't get that model. For example, I refuse to buy a Khorne Lord of Skulls because I think they priced it well into silly land.

However, I will buy alternative models from 3rd parties. To be clear I'm talking about models that are the correct size and have options that look *similar* to the standard kits. Mainly I'm looking for variety.

I also buy GW and FW products.

With regards to the original post here about the Elysian Drop troops I'd likely pass on the actual FW models and instead look for some other future military combat troop type models of an appropriate size. I consider $65 for 10 of something you'll likely need 40 of to be a really bad deal.. and that's BEFORE you buy the grav chutes to go with them. Heck, I may even consider just buying a regular IG kit and picking up a couple grav chute packs.. That would save over $30/unit.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

The fact that you have painted models let alone actual models is all that really matters to me. I know my armies are filled with non GW models and honestly if you want a recast from china who am i to fault you? If it gets you back into the game and gets you playing and your a fun opponent why should i care where you get your models from? Gw is always going to charge an arm ad a leg it doesnt matter if there are counterfit products or not... they will raise prices until no one buys then they will lower prices its all about maxamizing their profits. so if you wannt to buy parts models from scrobior hitech evil craft spellcrow or a recast Go for it I would gladly play against you. just paint them please lol

[Harley]

TLDR version

Pirating like this will always exist unless companies make their service more convenient then what a pirate can offer. Also Companies need to stop thinking exploiting low wage countries doesn't have any consequences. If you pirate, still support the creators somehow, because their ideas are worth something.

QFT

A little parable to illustrate:

An American company outsources manufacture to China and accepts a 10% reject rate. The Chinese manufacturer is able to product at a 95% quality rate, but rejects that extra allowable 5% which are then sold on the Chinese grey market. Additionally, any molds which become old, non-conforming or "lost" can be sold to another manufacturer to make reproductions which are often just as good or better than the originals.

There are Three American Consumers. One is poor, and two are rich. One of the Rich ones buys an original item, and pays standard market value to the American Corporation because he can afford it, however, like many do, his models remain forever unpainted and partially unassembled. The other Rich consumer chooses to buy a Chinese "reproduction" at a reduced cost rather than the original and spends the money he saves on paints and modelling supplies from the American Corporation. Finally, the Poor consumer, can't afford the original "American" product and so he buys the reproduction, then plans to save his money to later buy supplies.

In all three examples, the Chinese manufacturer get's paid the same, the workers making them are still payed poorly and the product is similar. In the cases of the Rich consumers, the American corporation wins out because even if they don't sell the larger item, they make more profit on accessories and paint by volume. In the case of the Poor consumer, the American corporation is no worse off since their pricing excluded the Poor person from the market anyways.

The moral of the story is: Most replica items are marketed at consumers who would otherwise be excluded from the original item anyways. Potential profit theft is an illusion. The man who downloads a film instead of going to the theater to watch it wouldn't have gone to the theater anyways. The people buying knock off Forgeworld models wouldn't buy the same volume of authentic Forgeworld items anyways.

If GW wants to win out they need to have competitive priced models, give incentives by diversifying their product line, offer difficult to reproduce and competitively priced accessories such as paint/glue and provide their loyal customers with an experience associated with a luxury item which cannot be duplicated such as events, tournaments, leagues and a community.

Outside of England and some of the EU, GW does not do this.


Those who Purchase reproduction items from China are participating in a crime... "Wall of Text"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2Jduxc2P8

[Erik Setzer]

I've always wondered where the line is drawn with this, if I 'scratch build' parts like armour plating for my tanks or bionic limbs replacing portions of Space Marines using Evergreen scale models (a third party company that I'm giving money to, to add to my GW miniatures) styrene parts, how is that really any different to if I cut up some, say Kromlech bionic parts and fit them on my Marines rather than buying the Iron hands upgrade kit?
What about the Dragonforge power cables, I mean I could have bought one of many kits like the Dreadknight FULL of powercables to use, but I went away from GW, however I can't see anyone complaining about that.
I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but there has to be an invisible line somewhere, right?

It's kind of hard to tell, I don't know. They might have some keen-eyed people who can spot non-GW bits.

I'm bugged by it because, while I'm okay with not using some of the non-GW stuff I have like the old DemonBlade "Org" models my dad had, I'd love using Kromlech stuff, or even just tacking GW bits onto, say, a German halftrack from WWII as an Ork transport.

- - - Updated - - -


In the end, I just don't think it's good for the hobby overall. While I think the 3rd party companies making their own models, conversion bits, etc, just make things better.

No, it's not good for GW (though the hobby will survive if GW magically disappeared, because GW games are part of a larger hobby, they are not a hobby themselves). Considering that knock-offs are being bought because people can't afford GW's ever-growing prices, it's on GW that they even have this problem. They could charge a reasonable price for models like other companies do, and then people would buy from them, where the quality is (usually) guaranteed, as opposed to buying from someone else. If GW chooses to keep pricing people out of their games, they're going to have to keep watching those sales go elsewhere.

[Erik Setzer]

As for the price, well yes of course we would love cheaper stuff and re-casts should be a fraction of the price. GW profit is only 13% of their revenues, that means that the overwhelming revenue is just covering costs. <SNIP>They cannot really afford to drop prices much more. Certainly, they might be able to do things internally to improve efficiences and stuff.

If GW "can't afford to drop prices," then they're doing something terribly wrong. Other companies are able to sell similar quality models for much, much less (i.e. a unit of Witch Elf style models that are 30 for ~$50, or Dwarfs at 20 for ~$50, whereas GW sells 10 for $60 and 10 for $50, respectively). Why can they afford it and not GW? If GW is having trouble making money charging the same as other people, then they are spending way too much somewhere. And that just leads me to wonder where the heck that money is going. Especially as it seems they had a lot less revenue coming in this past six-month period, but almost the same operating costs (even as they switch to cheaper to maintain stores). So, again, where the heck is all that money going? What can be cut that is unnecessary and being used by some people to excuse GW charging way too much for models that other companies could charge 1/3-1/2 for?

[daboarder]

Eriks right.

Gw makes a profit when it sells wjolesale to retailers who are then able to make their own profit on the product and stil undercut the gw price by up to 25%

[StingrayP226]

I was refering to the chinese knock offs...

I understand both sides of the argument feels like a lot of it comes down to loyality to GW. Which brings up another aspect of this discussion. You have the loyal to GW saying the truth on how its a ripped off of their work. The other side doesn't argue this. Instead its more of a GW tries to screw us with their gouged up prices so I fight that by seeking more affordable options.

Now $35 for 10 well made plastic troops is pricy (Cadians) but looking purely at a model stand point isn't too super pricy however I find $65 to $70 is overpriced for 10 infantry and sorry but there are plenty of smaller companies that make resin miniatures with high quality for less and offer better shipping options, communication, and better value. Wish they were cheaper so i could just get the legit ones at ok prices...

[SquigBrain]

It's not a matter of loyalty to GW. It's a matter of stealing someone else's work. Overpriced or not, the models are creations of artists who get paid by GW to create the product.

Give money to people who create their own stuff.

Can't afford a forgeworld model? Make your own! But don't go giving money to people that are flat-out stealing.

[StingrayP226]

It's not a matter of loyalty to GW. It's a matter of stealing someone else's work. Overpriced or not, the models are creations of artists who get paid by GW to create the product.

Give money to people who create their own stuff.

Can't afford a forgeworld model? Make your own! But don't go giving money to people that are flat-out stealing.

Very good point there.

[DarkLink]

If GW "can't afford to drop prices," then they're doing something terribly wrong.

Not necessarily. A lot of businesses operation with very thin margins.

Games Workshop, in its annual financial report this year, released that they spent ~220 million dollars, and made ~250 million back. Or... maybe british pounds. I'm not sure if the source I got this from converted to dollars or not. Either way, that's not that big of a margin.

That's not to say that GW can't make some massive improvements. But arbitrarily massively cutting prices, in a vaccum? That would put them out of business pretty fast.

[Gleipnir]

I seriously wonder how many people here are actually aware that purchasing recasts or knock-offs is neither illegal or immoral on the part of the consumer. A consumer has no moral responsibility to pay a company for a brand name product, if another product suits their needs better for any reason.(understanding if you have a problem with said product or service you need to deal with the company that sold it to you)

A company or individual profiting off another persons IP via recasts is illegal, not so sure about immoral, since I can't seem to find "though shalt not copy someone else" But its not the consumers job to police the marketplace on behalf of the companies.

I buy all my items from my GW store because I appreciate the service I receive from the store manager, and the same store manager puts products on layaway for me if I ask, including finding bits or the odd product that may have been discontinued. I also purchase bulk from online retailers for 20-40% off, though I still prefer the immediate gratification of walking into a store and walking out with a new toy to play with. Re-casting companies do not offer this level of service or immediate gratification so I choose not to use them.

Most companies sell to retailers/jobbers for very slim margins and to the general public for upwards of 40-50% above that, pretty appropriate when you consider those retailers have to provide for overhead for a storefront, payroll, business taxes, and adjusting for any shrink in their inventory.

[Littha]

As much as I hate GWs pricing structure for things the only thing I even considered buying off a recaster was copies of the old juan diaz deamonettes. Because £25 for 10 from china is better than £50 or £60 on Ebay and it doesn't impact GWs actual sales numbers as they don't even make the models any more (and I would never buy the new fugly daemonettes)

[Grey Mage]

I honestly just dont care.

GWs prices are high enough I cant blame anyone for it. If they were more reasonable few if anyone would. All I care about is that the players made an effort to make an army I can play against, and has a good attitude about the game. Painted? Preferred, of course. But not being able to afford the highest prices on the market doesnt make them a bad person, and its honestly none of my business.

[SquigBrain]

Morality is very much based on the individual. You don't view it as immoral, that's fine. I do, however, as I believe it is morally wrong to purchase what is (in my opinion) essentially stolen goods.

When you buy a resin model, you aren't just buying resin. You're buying the time and skill of the person who created it as well. If you buy a recast, you're giving money to someone who basically stole that time and skill.

I personally, believe that what recasters do is both illegal and immoral, and believe it would be immoral to reward them for it.

[lævus]

Cutting costs to increase profits can actually be very effective, the theory being that although you make less money from each unit, you can shift a proportionately higher number of units and reduce stock stagnation.

I believe the last GW half yearly report showed revenue of £60.5M and a pre-tax profit of £7.7M, equating to a 12.73% pre tax profit margin. Although this doesn't sound fantastic, when you compare it to another company for example BAE systems, a FTSE 100 company who reported £7,952M revenue and pre-tax profit of £529M, only a 6.65% pre-tax margin it looks a lot better. A lot of businesses DO operate on a thin margin, GW's definitely isn't the thinnest though.

To the OP, theres a bit of fluff in an older codex that refers to a regiment that was bought back up to strength through the combination of a Catachan and an Elysian regiment who had both suffered heavy casualties, creating an airborne jungle specialist regiment.
If you wanted to keep it all GW products it could be an option to explore. Mixing Catachan kits (the HW teams and Command squads don't look bad like the older basic troopers and can be picked up on the internet at a decent price) with some of the FW Elysian squads, and the respirator heads and bits they sell to find a middle ground in price.

[Defenestratus]

Well a samsung phone was ruled as an ip breach so hes got that one right...

Only in certain aspects and certainly not on all of the ones that Apple had hoped for.

But lets not let pesky facts get in the way of of Apple fanboyism.
http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Samsung-F700-vs-iPhone.jpg

</threadjack>

At this point, recasting has been so rampant that chances are that you've played against a whole army of recasts and never knew it.

I know of a guy who placed in the top 10 at a national-level tournament that had a completely, 100% recast army and nobody ever knew.

[stevegill]

If GW "can't afford to drop prices," then they're doing something terribly wrong. Other companies are able to sell similar quality models for much, much less (i.e. a unit of Witch Elf style models that are 30 for ~$50, or Dwarfs at 20 for ~$50, whereas GW sells 10 for $60 and 10 for $50, respectively). Why can they afford it and not GW? If GW is having trouble making money charging the same as other people, then they are spending way too much somewhere. And that just leads me to wonder where the heck that money is going. Especially as it seems they had a lot less revenue coming in this past six-month period, but almost the same operating costs (even as they switch to cheaper to maintain stores). So, again, where the heck is all that money going? What can be cut that is unnecessary and being used by some people to excuse GW charging way too much for models that other companies could charge 1/3-1/2 for?

So which bits should they cut?
The stores without which there would be a lot fewer new players?
The R&D teams, the products are good enough now so we don't need improvements?
Heavy Metal and the army building team, the other companies seem to do OK without a lot of pro-painted figure photos?
Use cheaper sculptors and designers, other companies do quite well with almost as good quality designs?
The game design team, surely one of the other companies that make compatible products will pick up the slack on codex and game design?
The artists, who needs all those pretty pictures and fancy displays anyway?
Warhammer World, it's just a geeky theme park really?

GW run things at a very different level to the other gaming companies, unfortunately it all costs.

And yes, I did used to call GW the Evil Empire, but then I learned about how the luxury goods / hobby market works and kind of understand now (though it doesn't stop me cursing when I really want something I can't justify paying for).

[Peasant]

Here are a few things I don't think people realize...
1. Everyone claims GW prices are outrageous, yet if you look at the majority of model companies, all of their prices are in line with each other. Excluding the occasional over priced box, Witch Elves I'm looking at you.
2. How are you determining this 'fair' pricing?? A non necessity item (i.e. things not required for living) is marketed at the value people will pay.
3. A knock off does not determine that a model is 'unfairly' priced, rather that it is a highly prized item and in effect proves that the price point is where it should be based on what people are willing to pay. (demand) If the people had the funds to easily purchase the product, they would
4. There is a mistake many make about profit. The idea that a model that is sold for $2 and costs $1 to make means $1 profit is incorrect. It is more complex but let's make this as short and simple as possible..
When making a model you must pay sculptors, mold makers, materials, packaging etc..let's say you make a ton and it costs $100,000 in production and plastics etc.(cheap huh) if it sells for $10 each the company must sell 10,000 of them before it begins to make a profit on the item. So any currently available knockoffs damage what the company can produce in the future and even continue to make off of the item being sold.

But to stay as the question was asked,
I would not agree with the players choice of purchase. Any purchase of fakes damages a company. Although it may be difficult to tell some of the knockoffs so if they don't say anything about it it is difficult to know. Knowing they purchased fakes would potentially cause me to keep a closer eye on their gaming because their scruples may be a bit shady.

[Gleipnir]

the Asian market excels at reverse engineering products ie knocking off, they started with textiles goods, moved onto manufactured goods and now produces electronic and video copies and luxury goods.

The majority of consumers today "expect" to pay prices on par of textile goods produced from an Asian market source(many textile jobs have relocated to compete), increasingly manufactured goods are gaining the same level of acceptance(though from experience the stuff is crap for quality in comparison even at 1/5th the cost) Luxury goods and electronics are just the newest emerging market. Miniatures luckily benefit from their niche status since I doubt we will ever see a GW Beijing stealing all those UK jobs.

[daboarder]

Only in certain aspects and certainly not on all of the ones that Apple had hoped for.

But lets not let pesky facts get in the way of of Apple fanboyism.
http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Samsung-F700-vs-iPhone.jpg

</threadjack>

At this point, recasting has been so rampant that chances are that you've played against a whole army of recasts and never knew it.

I know of a guy who placed in the top 10 at a national-level tournament that had a completely, 100% recast army and nobody ever knew.

Mm fanboy....sure thing.

Im writing this on a samsung

- - - Updated - - -

This is where good will between the company and the consumer comes in. And frankly GW has almost no goodwill left.

As others say when GW engages in moral interactions with their customers then they can expect to get morality back.

And no "making profit" is not an excuse its a feeble justification that relies on the consumer following morals

[Sam Menethil]

I kind of sit on the fence a little with this one. A part of me wants to support GW/FW and ensure they continue to exist. The prices are high but they do produce some gorgeous models, although some of the rules could do with a little tweaking and play testing before releases but that's neither here nor there. I will generally buy the legit products from third party sites where possible and then from GW/FW directly if its an item which the 3rd party doesn't sell.

I do think however that a little leeway can go the other way in that if someone without much money, like my brother for instance, wants to play then I don't see an issue with him buying a couple of recasts. If it means that he can enjoy the game a lot more than if he had to wait several months longer to get a playable army of a reasonable size then I think this benefits the company more as he will be more likely to continue playing the game and then potentially buying future models. If however he can only buy directly from GW/FW or a 3rd party then it will take him much longer to get together a workable army and I know that he's been frustrated before and almost quit. Situations like this I feel are negative in that because of pricing he will quit the game completely. So sure he's buying a few recast models here and there but he will also pick up some full price ones occasionally if funds permit it and it means he will continue playing for years to come and he still buys their paints, brushes and ofc the codex's to be able to play with his models

Speaking for myself however I have bought a few recasts but when I've bought them its been purely for conversion purposes. I don't buy a whole recast to field it as it is. If I buy a recast its because I want to cannibalise some of the parts to make my own conversions. I'm not going to pay £15 for the Sanguinor for instance when really all I wanted of the model is the body. I'll buy the recast which works out at around £6, cannibalise the body and the other parts will end up in my bits box. I wouldn't mind if GW still sold bits or individual sprues like they used to years ago but I refuse to pay full price for a whole kit when I just want a few individual parts. Just my input to this conversation

[JGRSound]

I've bought some thinking it was forgeworld and realising it wasn't when it arrived, the biggest give away was that all the pieces fit together and where straight. Personally I'm not a massive fan of knock offs but it wouldn't bother me playing someone with them. I'm also sure forgeworld could half their costs if each model didn't come attached to a concrete barricade (I have actually used them for this they look great) There are also a lot of companies doing very nice armies that are good IG proxies, some specifically aimed at 40k some for there own games. But lets be honest if you don't want to play cadians or catachans 3rd party figures are your only real option at the moment.

[Wolfshade]

The plastic/resin used in a physical model is the cheapest part of the whole thing...

[Necron2.0]

Those who Purchase reproduction items from China are participating in a crime, this hurts the company whose items are being knocked off which then means that company, because of the loss of sales will have to drive their prices up even further, thus driving more knockoff sales, until such a point that the company goes bankrupt.

That's not really how it works. True enough it is a crime, but the reason why recasters can do what they do is because the prices for originals are so inflated - inflated enough to cover the recaster's costs in initial set-up and production and still allow them to make a handsome profit. I have cast miniatures of my own (as in originals by me) and based on my own experiences, labor would not be the most expensive aspect of the operation - it is materials and set-up.

The fact that recasters can do what they do is the surest sign that GW's products are woefully overpriced. If GW wanted to end the recaster phenomenon, the solution is bone-head simple - drop their prices to be at least in the ballpark of reasonable. If someone could buy a knock-off at price "x", or else buy an original at price "1.10 * X" (for example), chances are your average schmuck isn't going to bother with the hassle and moral dilemma of going for the knock-off. What GW is doing now, particularly with respect to their aggressive and unfriendly attitude towards their customers, they're pushing the average to say, "Alright, @#$! you. You're just a greedy, selfish little base-turd, and I'm going to hurt you any way I can."

[Wolfshade]

The fact that recasters can do what they do is the surest sign that GW's products are woefully overpriced. If GW wanted to end the recaster phenomenon, the solution is bone-head simple - drop their prices to be at least in the ballpark of reasonable.

What is the ball park of reasonable? For me and my circumstances they are reasonable, they may not be for everyone and I accept that. Certainly I would wish for lower prices, after all that's more plastic for the pound!
GW profit is 13% on each model. Is that unreasonable?
Consider popcorn from the cinema, a mere 1,275%, bottled water 4,000%
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/20-products-giant-markups-115730856.html

At around 13% that is more inline with the margins on groceries.

[Littha]

What would be better to look at would be an industry wide net profit margin: http://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html

Toys and Games works out at 10% while Toy and Hobby stores works out at -0.6%. Thus because GW runs both I would imagine it being around 9.4%

[Mike Lawler]

I use whatever I want.. so far that hasn't included recasters. I don't play any game to be part of any sort of kool-aid drinking cult.. I play it to have fun.. and if that means using this model for this game but also for that game.. then hey.. that's my choice. I do make sure that whatever I use actually represents what I'm doing and to the best of my ability that the model looks good. Past that, my models' origins aren't your concern. I don't play in GW events either before anyone starts on that. If I did though, I do have all GW forces.

[StingrayP226]

So I made my decision... I'm going to buy and use Mantic's Corporate Marines for my Elysian infantry since

A: they are very well priced
B: They look a **** of a lot like Elysian Jump Troops
C: I'm not supporting people who just rip off someone elses work so I don't have to worry about feeling the moral dilemma.

Ironically I understand this means I'd never be allowed to play my Army in anything sanctioned by GW (which I could with painted recasts) but I never planned to do this anyway. If someone has an issue with my infantry not being GW stuff then we don't have to play. Added bonus is that I might be able to still support LGS while buying these minis... win win all around.

[SquigBrain]

So I made my decision... I'm going to buy and use Mantic's Corporate Marines for my Elysian infantry since

A: they are very well priced
B: They look a **** of a lot like Elysian Jump Troops
C: I'm not supporting people who just rip off someone elses work so I don't have to worry about feeling the moral dilemma.

Ironically I understand this means I'd never be allowed to play my Army in anything sanctioned by GW (which I could with painted recasts) but I never planned to do this anyway. If someone has an issue with my infantry not being GW stuff then we don't have to play. Added bonus is that I might be able to still support LGS while buying these minis... win win all around.

Good on you.

And for those of arguing that recasting proves GW's prices are too high, seriously, you have to take into account more than just the cost of raw materials and a factory to cast them in.

You do have other options than buying recasts. Whether you take them or not is up to you. Me, I desperately want some forgeworld stuff, but since my hobby budget per month is about $10 these days, it's highly unlikely it's going to happen. But, I'm not going to buy recasts just because they're cheaper. I'd rather build my own, or proxy forever, than hand money to thieves.

[Harley]

What is the ball park of reasonable? For me and my circumstances they are reasonable, they may not be for everyone and I accept that. Certainly I would wish for lower prices, after all that's more plastic for the pound!
GW profit is 13% on each model. Is that unreasonable?
Consider popcorn from the cinema, a mere 1,275%, bottled water 4,000%
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/20-products-giant-markups-115730856.html

At around 13% that is more inline with the margins on groceries.

GW makes 13% pretax profit as a business in general, that doesn't mean each model is marked up 13%.

Also, profit margins are always larger with smaller items such as a water bottle which is more in line with a paint pot from GW, who probably makes quite a large margin on them, along with other accessories like glue and dice.

[lobster-overlord]

One thing Ithought about while reading and mulling over the recast thoughts, I'd much rather play against a player with a fully painted, non-coherant army that is full of recasts and 3rd party "counts as" over a WAAC player who codex hops with net-lists, buys only GW, and never paints his minis and plays with proxies.

john m

[Chris Copeland]

I tend to agree with our crustacean overlord. I care a LOT more about playing against fully painted armies than about the origin of said armies. I've never tried to police my fellow gamers nor tried to regulate their hobby. I don't really see it as my job. I have a couple of caveats:
*If a TO kicked someone out of a tourney for having recasts I wouldn't complain (as long as that was a known rule).
*If I found someone gaming with someone else's stolen army I certainly wouldn't play them... and I'd try to get the word out to the rest of the local gaming community that I'd found said stolen army. This is a very local distinction. I'm talking about thinking, "Hey! That's John's army! It was stolen from the LGS this past winter! OMG! I'm not playing this guy! I need to call John! I need to call everyone!" That's about as close as I could ever see myself trying to police another player's army...

Cheers...

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Wow i wonder how many hipocrits have pirated music right now on their pc's or in their itunes playlists... Guess you guys feel the need to police other people when it comes to miniatures but its okay as long as it's music... or pc games or DVD's or tv shows or what ever else you've downloaded or bought from someone who's pirated the items. heck I'm sure atleast 1/3 of your female family members or friends has knock off purses sunglasses ect. If somone wants to play me with an army they bough off ebay and it's painted or they are activly painting it then by all means lets roll some dice :)

[SquigBrain]

Wow i wonder how many hipocrits have pirated music right now on their pc's or in their itunes playlists... Guess you guys feel the need to police other people when it comes to miniatures but its okay as long as it's music... or pc games or DVD's or tv shows or what ever else you've downloaded or bought from someone who's pirated the items. heck I'm sure atleast 1/3 of your female family members or friends has knock off purses sunglasses ect. If somone wants to play me with an army they bough off ebay and it's painted or they are activly painting it then by all means lets roll some dice :)

For me, that answer is zero. I have no pirated movies or music.

I'm not trying to police anyone. Do whatever you think is right. I'm not going to decide to play anyone or not based on it.

But no doubt, it will reduce my opinion of people who do.

[lobster-overlord]

Ditto on SquigBrain. All my stuff on my computer is legit from my own CDs, purchased from iTunes or watched via streaming services that I pay for.

Now I'm not going to touch on my stock pile of RTV, ALumilite, Green Stuff, etc... but that's for personal use.

[Gleipnir]

downloading and thus making an illegal copy of something that is copyrighted is illegal, but viewing or listening to an illegally obtained copy is not, hence why their is a difference between consuming goods that were infringed upon or copying even without the intent to redistribute.

Making your own recasts w/o prior consent is more enforceable than buying from someone else second hand under the law, so its funny to me to see people talk about making their own bits copies as if that is somehow morally better than buying from a re-caster. The only difference is one person is getting paid by stealing profits for the copyright holder, while you doing it yourself is doing the same thing by denying the copyright holder payment.

[Peasant]

The fact that recasters can do what they do is the surest sign that GW's products are woefully overpriced. If GW wanted to end the recaster phenomenon, the solution is bone-head simple - drop their prices to be at least in the ballpark of reasonable. If someone could buy a knock-off at price "x", or else buy an original at price "1.10 * X" (for example), chances are your average schmuck isn't going to bother with the hassle and moral dilemma of going for the knock-off. What GW is doing now, particularly with respect to their aggressive and unfriendly attitude towards their customers, they're pushing the average to say, "Alright, @#$! you. You're just a greedy, selfish little base-turd, and I'm going to hurt you any way I can."

Look up a few posts and read what I put there.
Recasting does not prove that something is over priced. It shows that the item is highly desirable. Just because it isn't available in the bargain baskets for every person does not put it out of line.
If it was as simple as overpriced why do we not see recasts of other companies models? They are all resting on a very similar price point.
I have never had GW be unfriendly to me. Any issue I have ever had they have fixed with no questions asked. They aren't aggressive, they are salesmen..because that's what they do. They are after all a business.
Someone who buys all Forgeworld will find most of GW models reasonable to cheap. Price is subjective.
So why is GW bad because someone can't afford all their products? Do we call BMW names?
GW is apparently greedy because their price point is high, for a highly demanded item. the item that they designed, produced, shipped etc.
What do we call an individual that wants and item so bad that they are not concerned with legalities of how they obtain it? Angry because they can't afford it?
Why should GW have to drop their price because someone is stealing their products.?
If they drop the price, recasters will sell the product for a discount below that. The bargain hunters will always bargain hunt.
Cd's are $13..people pirate them for free if a CD dropped to $4 would those people go and buy them? No.

[daboarder]

What is the ball park of reasonable? For me and my circumstances they are reasonable, they may not be for everyone and I accept that. Certainly I would wish for lower prices, after all that's more plastic for the pound!
GW profit is 13% on each model. Is that unreasonable?
Consider popcorn from the cinema, a mere 1,275%, bottled water 4,000%
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/20-products-giant-markups-115730856.html

At around 13% that is more inline with the margins on groceries.

you do realize the simple fact that wholesalers can sell product that they have BOUGHT from GW for up to 25% LESS than GWs listed price, means that this is a load of bunk

[Harley]

Cd's are $13..people pirate them for free if a CD dropped to $4 would those people go and buy them? No.

So by your own logic you admit that GW isn't losing money from recasters because those who buy pirated copies wouldn't have bought the original anyways :rolleyes:

[Harry Paratesteez]

Its settled.
I hereby proclaim to never purchase Chinese food in Nottingham.

[Darren Richardson]

Don't get me wrong about the whole playing against thing, as if my tabletop rival has a nicely modelled and nicely painted army I will never likely know just where part x comes from or that Part Z was a re-cast, and if that army is painted and ready to play against, I'd play them.

But if they DID mention that they had brought pirated copies of figures, I would most likely call them out on it and give them a good piece of my mine.

Now recasting pieces yourself for your own personal use within your model army, that to me IS different, as long as you own the piece which you made the mould from and the pieces you are casting from that model are being used only by yourself that isn't necessorly illegal, a grey area most certainlly but not outrightly illegal.

Here in the UK you are legally allowed to make a copy of CD's and DVD's you own for backup purposes, though that is ONE copy only mind you, at least that was what the law said the last time I checked several years ago.

Of course my opinion is based on what I know and what I know may very well be wrong ;)

[GoffWarboss]

you do realize the simple fact that wholesalers can sell product that they have BOUGHT from GW for up to 25% LESS than GWs listed price, means that this is a load of bunk

This is a very silly thing to say, GW run stores that have massive overheads, more than most local game shops, they offer intro painting and give gaming demos every day that they're open, they train and pay their staff a decent retail wage with good perks, they have to run CRB checks on alll staff to ensure they're trained and safe around children, they have a lot to deal with, and they're a large business, so have standards to meet for employees like health and safety and benefits that smaller businesses get away without.

Most local game shops that I've been to, exist and stay in business thanks to the good will of their customers, paying people to work part time in stock which would be less than a minimum wage at cost to the store, for example.

A lot of them also stay in business because of GW, how many people start with Warhammer or 40K? Most hobbyists, easily. They might move on to something different after a few years and go else where, but GW started them off, showed them how to play table top games, gave them somewhere to learn to paint and practise and meet other hobbyists in this new world. All of this costs money, without which, other local shops would have to do it, and then their prices would go up. Without GW doing that groundwork, hardly anyone would be playing Warmahordes, there wouldn't be an audience for Infinity, the industry needs a company to introduce people to the hobby and thats what GW does.

[daboarder]

Honestly the most worrying thing here is the number of people equating the law with morality.

Those are two VERY different things, just because the law states an action is incorrect does not make it morally so, and vice versa, and I worry for a society that makes that mistake.

[GoffWarboss]

Honestly the most worrying thing here is the number of people equating the law with morality.

Those are two VERY different things, just because the law states an action is incorrect does not make it morally so, and vice versa, and I worry for a society that makes that mistake.

I worry about the morality of someone who tries to justify theft of a non essential thing as a moral act, because they can't afford it.

[Dave Fothergill]

I've read all the posts on this thread now I've got approximately 5000 points of blood angels at home all painted and all original GW models. It has taken me the best part if 15 years to collect and paint them as money has always been an issue. Now prior to reading this post I did not know that there where places you could buy recasts of GW stuff so had never considered buying them before. I have to admit though I'm very tempted to buy some of the recasts as it makes financial sense. For some it may well be a choice of looking for cheaper recasts or be priced out of GW's games and losing out on the hobby altogether.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

@Dave buy away my friend buy away i would rather see you buying and playing a game you enjoy then listen to the moral authority chastise you... I know i would bet money on how many laws the so called moral authority breaks on a given day... hmm speeding. stop signs yield signs. jaywalking failure to signal. underage drinking, porn before their 18.... illegal drugs. I could name probably several hundred more moral vises or traffic infractions. I guess those who preach about the law should head down to your local police stations and confess to all your infraction then.... I do believe those to cast the first stones should be those who can say they have not sinned...

[SquigBrain]

@Dave buy away my friend buy away i would rather see you buying and playing a game you enjoy then listen to the moral authority chastise you... I know i would bet money on how many laws the so called moral authority breaks on a given day... hmm speeding. stop signs yield signs. jaywalking failure to signal. underage drinking, porn before their 18.... illegal drugs. I could name probably several hundred more moral vises or traffic infractions. I guess those who preach about the law should head down to your local police stations and confess to all your infraction then.... I do believe those to cast the first stones should be those who can say they have not sinned...

(sarcasm) Yeah! And why the heck not, you shouldn't be deprived of driving a car since you cant afford one! So you have every right to go out and steal one! Screw the Man! (/sarcasm)

Make your own choice....but realize that it is basically, buying stolen goods. If that doesn't bother you, feel free. If it does, there *are* options.

[Harley]

(sarcasm) Yeah! And why the heck not, you shouldn't be deprived of driving a car since you cant afford one! So you have every right to go out and steal one! Screw the Man! (/sarcasm)

Make your own choice....but realize that it is basically, buying stolen goods. If that doesn't bother you, feel free. If it does, there *are* options.

Stealing a car implicates that someone had an automobile which they legally owned, and now they do not because you stole it. The owner of the car was thus harmed.

Who was harmed when you buy a recast FW figure you could have never afforded the authentic version of?

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Again the moral authority who hasn't broken a law can get on his soap box and preach but i'm a gambling man and i'll take the bet that not one or you can say you've never broken a law. most common law broken jaywalking and driving infractions and for those who don't drive I know you bikers have broken your fair share of laws as well... So please someone judge those who buy recasts that has never broken a law themselves? Until the perfect law abiding citizen can step forward that soap box is not yours to preach from.

[Tudd Fudders]

I worry about the morality of someone who tries to justify theft of a non essential thing as a moral act, because they can't afford it.

But I buy recasts and I'm straight edge, in college, and never been in trouble with the law.

I sometimes mass murder birds when nobody is looking tho.... But there are so many of them!!!

[Dave Fothergill]

(sarcasm) Yeah! And why the heck not, you shouldn't be deprived of driving a car since you cant afford one! So you have every right to go out and steal one! Screw the Man! (/sarcasm)

Make your own choice....but realize that it is basically, buying stolen goods. If that doesn't bother you, feel free. If it does, there *are* options.

Well I've never actually brought any recasts I didn't even know they existed until I read this post, all I said was if be tempted to get them not that I would but money wise on yoymart I can get 5 catafaracti terminators for £20 including weapons you can't do they any where else I know if and new from FW I could never afford

[SquigBrain]

Stealing a car implicates that someone had an automobile which they legally owned, and now they do not because you stole it. The owner of the car was thus harmed.

Who was harmed when you buy a recast FW figure you could have never afforded the authentic version of?

Because you can't afford something, is not a valid reason to steal it, in my opinion. And yes, I think it's stealing, and yes, I think it harms both GW, and the individual artists who create the models.

[SquigBrain]

Until the perfect law abiding citizen can step forward that soap box is not yours to preach from.

Welcome to the Internet. I can both preach, judge, applaud, and ignore, as long as I don't anger the mods. :)

I don't believe stealing is right. I believe recasters are stealing. You are welcome to think otherwise, and give them your money.

[Darren Richardson]

Recasters are committing the crime of Intellectual Property Theft, they are stealing the designs and using them for themselves for profit, without giving the IP owner a penny, and that is theft in most countries on this planet.

Those who buy recaster's models are buying illeaglly made goods, they are thus an accessory to theft, of course in most cases those who make the purchase are less likely to be prosicuted then the forgers (for that is what recasters are, FORGERS).

And SoR, yes many people are breaking the law on a daily basis, there are many bylaws which are hopelessly outdated which have also never been revoked, for instance in victorian times Black Cabs were required to carry a bale of hay for covering up the poop when their horses took a call of nature, that law has never been revoked, and the wording of the law states Black Cabs, which means all london black cabs should carry that hay with them, they don't of course, but who in their right mind will charge a cabbie for breaking a victorian law which is no longer applicable to 21st century living?

all in all, remember that recasters are making FORGERIES which is illeagal and willingly buying an item which is a Forgery can be a crime....

Of course the art world makes a mockery of that to a degree, with some forgers works being worth more then the originals, but that's a whole different kettle of fish and it's gonna give you a headache trying to work that one out.... ;)

[Necron2.0]

That is the difference really ... the cause of this argument. Some call recasting stealing. Personally, I don't think it is. I wouldn't consider recasting any more morally reprehensible than using proxies. Either way, you're not using the "official" tinker-toy.

I also think the very notion of "IP" is simply a ploy devised by lawyers to make lawyers rich. The original concept of copyright and patent was never intended for the shennanigans it's being put to today. The original intent was solely to allow an inventor or writer to recoup his development costs, and nothing more. It was not intended to become a proverbial ball and chain to shackle the public to.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I will not nor will i ever come down on a player for using a model they bought from china or russia. I would much rather play against a player who paintshis models then someone who uses counts as and grey plastic to represent every army under the sun. So if you want to use a recast the by all means please buy them and play them I will gladly play against you. And those that scorn oh well just remember we're getting in a game with painted minatures and having fun while you sit in the corner and pout because we are playing and your not.

[T-bud]

Each box set gw makes has an initial cost, a large one. This pays the designer, box art and the big one, the mould itself. This could be $50 000, $100 000, heck large kit could be $400 000.

The actual cost of the plastic, cardboard box is probably less then it cost to ship it to the shop. Everyone says they moved to finecast because metal was to expensive, I reckon I was to expensive to ship all over the world.

GW might sell a new kit for 12 months at no profit until the initial costs are payed off, then it's basically all profit. But then this profit is used to pay for the next new kit/book/support less profitable army.

[Gotthammer]

Who was harmed when you buy a recast FW figure you could have never afforded the authentic version of?

If you could never afford a legit FW figure you shouldn't be buying anything non-essential. What I think you mean is "if you have to save up and have less than what you want over a longer period of time".

[Mr Mystery]

There are many things in life that I cannot afford.

And like the majority of civilised persons, I don't just take it, or seek ropey knock offs. I go without.

We're not talking food nor water here. We're talking toy soldiers. None of us have a right to these things.

But hey, if you're really morally special snowflakes, to whom the law somehow doesn't apply, bully for you. You ****.

[Dave Fothergill]

Ok so moral and legal issues aside why do people buy recasts of company's like yoymart obviously the price but what is the quality like ? because if that's rubbish surely people would not use them ?

[Digitarii]

Honestly, the Yoymart stuff is usually resin as opposed to Finecast and the quality is as good or sometimes better than the GW or Forge World item. I ordered the 25th Anniversary Crimson Fist piece so I could get the Standard for my CF standard bearer. 9.00 plus "insurance", free shipping and I had the standard, a Model in mk6 armor for a Sergeant and a nice base for my future Contemptor Dread. That same model goes for over 60.00 on Ebay if you can find it at all. Later, I ordered a Pedro Kantor because I couldn't find him in Metal anywhere and I didn't want to bother with the Finecast version. The Pedro Kantor had some minor issues, but nothing I couldn't resolve with a minor application of Liquid Green Stuff.

[Psychosplodge]

I've read all the posts on this thread now I've got approximately 5000 points of blood angels at home all painted and all original GW models. It has taken me the best part if 15 years to collect and paint them as money has always been an issue. Now prior to reading this post I did not know that there where places you could buy recasts of GW stuff so had never considered buying them before. I have to admit though I'm very tempted to buy some of the recasts as it makes financial sense. For some it may well be a choice of looking for cheaper recasts or be priced out of GW's games and losing out on the hobby altogether.

If you're very unlucky customs may impound and destroy them.
if you're unlucky customs will slap import vat/duty on them.
And they have a nasty habit of treating the $ as the £ value so then you have to pay the courier and claim the difference back. (as I'm currently doing for tshirts ffs :rolleyes:)

[Wolfshade]

This has answered the OP's question.

Now I think it is time it moved elsewhere.

A pgage ago the was a comment ath GW making 13% per model, this is of course an average,s icne we don't know the costs to produce a single model.

As for wholesalers, well these don't cost GW to make the sale, they are cheaper to ship to and while the margins will be much tighter with the wholesaler you have guaranteed sales and quite high volumes that obviously makes it worth while to GW.

[Peasant]

Quote Originally Posted by Peasant View Post

Cd's are $13..people pirate them for free if a CD dropped to $4 would those people go and buy them? No.

Quote Originally posted b yHarley

So by your own logic you admit that GW isn't losing money from recasters because those who buy pirated copies wouldn't have bought the original anyways


Good job taking a statement out of context and only answering one of several (though mostly hypothetical) questions.
A company always loses when someone steals their product.
The point is that lowering prices does not generate more sales.
Bargain shoppers always seek the bargain. If GW cut their prices in half, recasters would do the same. Those that buy the recasts will continue to do so because it is still cheaper.