Is "gay" a pejorative or not? And... fight!

[daboarder]

I no longer have any patience for homophobia, racism, or sexism whilst playing games. If someone says, "Gay!" during a game these days I am happy to point out out that there is nothing wrong with anyone being gay. I used to let such things go but the times they are a-changin'...

As you've stated your self.

Word meaning changes, depending on the person and situation gay does not necessarily mean homosexual.
Its a bit hypocritical to call someone out on apparently "miss using" a word, when your interpretation of the word itself is a modern phenomena anyway.

The point is that depending on the person that expression can be completely divorced from the slur on homosexuality.

ie: wonderful thing about english, context is everything

[Harley]

As you've stated your self.

Word meaning changes, depending on the person and situation gay does not necessarily mean homosexual.
Its a bit hypocritical to call someone out on apparently "miss using" a word, when your interpretation of the word itself is a modern phenomena anyway.

The point is that depending on the person that expression can be completely divorced from the slur on homosexuality.

ie: wonderful thing about english, context is everything

Of course, I'm sure when they frustratingly fail a saving throw or miss an important to-hit roll and growl "Gay!" they mean to be "lighthearted and carefree". /sarcasm

[daboarder]

Of course, I'm sure when they frustratingly fail a saving throw or miss an important to-hit roll and growl "Gay!" they mean to be "lighthearted and carefree". /sarcasm

No Im saying they mean "of all the gods cursed bad luck and terrible things"

Your saying they mean "I hate homosexuality"

see the difference, the meaning changes dependent on the context deal with it.

[SquigBrain]

No Im saying they mean "of all the gods cursed bad luck and terrible things"

Your saying they mean "I hate homosexuality"

see the difference, the meaning changes dependent on the context deal with it.


It is, in the end, a derogatory term. There are many words now for minorities that people simply don't use. Pick your favorite. If some yelled it out everytime they had a bad dice roll, would you think it was appropriate in your local game store? In your house?

It doesn't take much thought and effort, to complain about your dice *without* using something that is a trigger word for a lot of people.

[daboarder]

It is, in the end, a derogatory term. There are many words now for minorities that people simply don't use. Pick your favorite. If some yelled it out everytime they had a bad dice roll, would you think it was appropriate in your local game store? In your house?

It doesn't take much thought and effort, to complain about your dice *without* using something that is a trigger word for a lot of people.

appropriate in a gaming store? no not really

but in a house, during games and a few beers? maybe, depends on context.

Of course this is the culture where calling your best mate a **nt or a ******* is considered friendly

edit: I was more referring to the assumption that the use of an expletive means that the person using it is automatically talking about meaning context when there are others.

as in using it when you roll bad dice does not make a person homophobic

[Gotthammer]

You may just be “joking around”, but I don’t know you very well so, no, I can’t tell that you’re just joking. Especially when it’s online, and especially given there are plenty of people who act like that who do mean it legitimately. Relevant quote #1:
“Have a laugh and a joke, but in no way mean it; no one likes being insulted, whatever kind of person they are. People can be douchbags, and yes, those people should be shown the error of their ways -in no uncertain terms- but people get too hyped over this kind of thing. Take it like water off a ducks back, and reply in kind; if they cannot take it, screw them.”

That’s an excerpt from a comment in a HoP article on **** players in FoW. Now, in an ideal world that would be great. But consider this: for many LGBTA+ people and other minorities this isn’t a joking matter. What may be a joke from one person may be a prelude to assault, rape or murder from another.

Someone calling out “hey [various slurs] etc” (all things I’ve heard in game stores) as you walk past may well be a poorly judged attempt at humour, but there is always the fear in your mind that you’ll turn around and find someone standing there ready to cave your skull in for the sin of simply daring to exist.
When someone saying those things might literally kill you if they knew you belong to that group, it makes it a bit harder to say anything back or just laugh it off.

Relevent quote #2:
“Now that I know you’re joking I don’t feel hurt or offended anymore!”

You know who said that? Nobody, that’s who. Nobody ever.

From this article (http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/10/so-sinsynn-asked-for-people-from-thenon.html)

[ElectricPaladin]

My mother always told me that it was unwise and rude to use a word for something some people actually are as an actual or clinical definition as a bad word. You know, nobody is clinically "stupid" so it's ok to say "this rule is really stupid." Mental retardation is an actual thing, so it's kind of crude to say "this is retarded!" There are actual people in the world who are actual Jews - like myself, for example - so probably it's unwise to say "he totally jewed me" when referring to someone who managed to weasel money out of you.

Funny story. The owner of a Jewish summer camp I once worked at used to tell a story about a subcontractor who was trying to communicate that he had had to go over budget on some construction because of the price he was charged for lumber and was innocently confused about why the owner got hung up on the word "jewed." The owner's impression of the subcontractor's face when he finally got it was priceless.

I'm well aware that uttering statements like "that's so gay!" or "he totally jewed me" doesn't make you a bad person, exactly. It might mean that you are homophobic, racist, or otherwise bigoted, or it might not. What it does make you, however, is rude. You just don't do that. There are so many great words for something that is bad - why do you have to use a word that means something that some people actually are and presumably want to maintain a positive mindset about? Nobody wants to be a punchline.

The only grey area I see is when language genuinely moves on. I once had someone call me an ableist because of my use of the word "moron" - I had forgotten that "moron" was ever used to refer to a type of mental retardation. I don't think any American has been clinically labeled a moron for fifty years. So, maybe, "moronic" has passed into common usage as a fairly unobjectionable term for stupidity... or maybe not. I'd be willing to hear counterarguments.

The take-home lesson, though, is that I just don't see why your eagerness to express the badness of a thing supersedes someone else's interest in not being a punchline. It's rude and cruel to use actual identities and diagnoses as slurs because a polite person does not needlessly discomfort the people around them.

[Deadlift]

As you've stated your self.

Word meaning changes, depending on the person and situation gay does not necessarily mean homosexual.
Its a bit hypocritical to call someone out on apparently "miss using" a word, when your interpretation of the word itself is a modern phenomena anyway.

The point is that depending on the person that expression can be completely divorced from the slur on homosexuality.

ie: wonderful thing about english, context is everything

I am going to have to totally disagree with you there, for you it might not be an issue but I never think it's appropriate to use a term describing someone's sexual orientation as a derogatory term. As Chris said times are changing. You say it means different things to different people, but we all know what it means really.
Saying things like "my dice roll was so gay" may seem ok to you but the implication is that "gay" is bad is being made and that's just unacceptable in my book.

I swear like a trooper when things go badly in games sometimes but I don't have to resort to ignorance, and no my friends and I don't call each other c*nts or f*ckers either.

[Gleipnir]

Getting off topic but is subtle differences when a word is directed at someone or a word is directed in general i.e. context, I agree with your assessment that many slang words are just rude. I don't feel saying something is gay rises to the level of calling someone a derogatory slur, but homosexuals are sensitive of words used to describe themselves also being used to describe something in a negative light as the connotation is that both are considered the same. Most teenagers I meet using the term I politely ask to find a better way to express their meaning. Many of us grow up around such slangs and expressions without even realizing how the things that are said may be perceived by others, that's just part of education and maturity. I grew up using a term not so favorable to a subclass of Romany for example. If your intention among your friends is to be rude however and used such language well then that was your intent.

[daboarder]

I am going to have to totally disagree with you there, for you it might not be an issue but I never think it's appropriate to use a term describing someone's sexual orientation as a derogatory term. As Chris said times are changing. You say it means different things to different people, but we all know what it means really.
Saying things like "my dice roll was so gay" may seem ok to you but the implication is that "gay" is bad is being made and that's just unacceptable in my book.

I swear like a trooper when things go badly in games sometimes but I don't have to resort to ignorance, and no my friends and I don't call each other c*nts or f*ckers either.

as I said, its not a question of using someones sexual preferences as a derogatory comment, that is not what I'm arguin, I agree completely that is not appropriate.

I am arguing that the meaning of the word has changed. Maybe I'm just fortunate enough to hang around people who just don't care what relationship people are in if its none fo their damned business.

[Deadlift]

Its an ignorant use of the word Gay then isn't it

[daboarder]

Its an ignorant use of the word Gay then isn't it

so is a homosexual referring to themselves as "gay" an ignorant use of the word?

because until recently thats not what it meant

[Gotthammer]

Actually uses of gay to mean homosexual date back to the 19th century so... also it's origin as an insult is based on it meaning homosexual. Saying "you're gay" to someone means "you are homosexual and that is bad", and it is still frequently used that way.
Anecdote time: A guy at another branch of my company was doing the night manager shift when a group of guys started hassling him because he appeared rather effeminate, calling him gay amongst other things - because that's what they perceived him as. He got security to throw them out of the store, and when he locked up for the night they were waiting in the carpark and stabbed him because he was, in their eyes, gay.

As I quoted above, if you throw it around the game store (or anywhere really) you could be using it in a different context, but for a large number of gay people (and not gay people) when it is used to mock or insult, it is a reference to their sexuality. Also given people who use it as an insult are oft inclined to increase from mere verbal assaults it's a very uncomfortable situation. Like what if you go up to someone and say, "hey, can you stop using gay as an insult?" and they are actually a raging homophobe? Like one time I was walking from work to my car and walked past a bunch of guys and as I did heard a few slurs likely directed at me. Of course they could have been using them in an unrelated context but I wasn't going to stop and ask. In the end I didn't have to worry about it as just after I passed them they all started following me. Possibly another coincidence but I didn't want to find out and was fortunately able to go back inside without doubling back - but in demanding that the insulted and put down stand up for themselves you are effectively saying "yes, I'm insulting you and I've been told repeatedly it can be really hurtful, but unless you speak up in what I've made a potentially hostile environment I'm going to keep doing it ."

So I really don't see why you're so insistent on continuing to use a word people are pretty clear is hurtful to use as an insult?

[daboarder]

Actually uses of gay to mean homosexual date back to the 19th century so... also it's origin as an insult is based on it meaning homosexual. Saying "you're gay" to someone means "you are homosexual and that is bad", and it is still frequently used that way.
Anecdote time: A guy at another branch of my company was doing the night manager shift when a group of guys started hassling him because he appeared rather effeminate, calling him gay amongst other things - because that's what they perceived him as. He got security to throw them out of the store, and when he locked up for the night they were waiting in the carpark and stabbed him because he was, in their eyes, gay.

As I quoted above, if you throw it around the game store (or anywhere really) you could be using it in a different context, but for a large number of gay people (and not gay people) when it is used to mock or insult, it is a reference to their sexuality. Also given people who use it as an insult are oft inclined to increase from mere verbal assaults it's a very uncomfortable situation. Like what if you go up to someone and say, "hey, can you stop using gay as an insult?" and they are actually a raging homophobe? Like one time I was walking from work to my car and walked past a bunch of guys and as I did heard a few slurs likely directed at me. Of course they could have been using them in an unrelated context but I wasn't going to stop and ask. In the end I didn't have to worry about it as just after I passed them they all started following me. Possibly another coincidence but I didn't want to find out and was fortunately able to go back inside without doubling back - but in demanding that the insulted and put down stand up for themselves you are effectively saying "yes, I'm insulting you and I've been told repeatedly it can be really hurtful, but unless you speak up in what I've made a potentially hostile environment I'm going to keep doing it ."

So I really don't see why you're so insistent on continuing to use a word people are pretty clear is hurtful to use as an insult?

fair enough. as I said, where you use an insult is dependent on company and location. You can even read the quote where I state its not appropriate in public.

and all you need to do to ask me to stop using any type of language is ask nicely

[daboarder]

I think one of the problems is that as language "evolves" that words gain alternate meaning or even while retaining the same meaning gain a perjorative sense which isn't always meant by the original speaker.
.

That was the point I had been trying to make yes.

People have clearly stated to you that the word is inappropriate to be used in the context you're defending, if you're using it in private amongst "friends" and you think its ok, then you're ignorant and are part of the problem, acting like its ever ok is what makes people think homophobia is ok.
And you've met me?

Could you also please quote where I have insulted or attacks another speaker in this thread?
Im not the one who got mod smacked for in appropriate language

[The Girl]

You have 24 hours to argue about this here and the thread will be closed.

The mod staff sees the term, unless used to mean "happy" or "homosexual" in a neutral tone, as a pejorative on this board. Don't use it. If you see it used in a negative light, please flag it. I don't care what your definition of it is, this is ours. Respect it or face consequences.

Thanks.

[eldargal]

^Why I love BoLS so much, creating friendly space for everyone ftw.

[Wolfshade]

This is why we all need to speak in Lojban.

It is all about context.
Mostly the use of gay to mean happy is archaic, with an almost universal repurposing as slang for homosexual.

When used to describe anything other than a person's sexuality I cannot see how it could be anything other than dergoatory. That is not to say that I associate gay with being undesirable, however, when some rolls a bad result and exclaims "That's gay!" or when someone exhibits behaviour they find unacceptable "Stop being gay". It is clear that gay is used as a negative affliction.

It can be used neutrally, "She's one of my gay friends", but the usage is almost universally as an adjective of a person or persons. Not as an adjective for objects or behaviours.

[Nabterayl]

The take-home lesson, though, is that I just don't see why your eagerness to express the badness of a thing supersedes someone else's interest in not being a punchline. It's rude and cruel to use actual identities and diagnoses as slurs because a polite person does not needlessly discomfort the people around them.
I second this.

[Eric French]

Going there in 3...2...

So let's say you decided to find yourself some God. A Christian, God serving organization. Would you react differently if, during your first visit to the house of worship of your choosing that someone who actually knew the person who was speaking publicly informed you that the person was either...
A: drunk as they were speaking.
B: actively homosexual
C: a serial killer

Would any of those assertions about that person make you feel any differently about them?
The times they are definitely a changing, we are seeing more and more human suffering, sex trafficking, violence, hatred of our fellow man, drug abuse, disease, missing persons, corrupt officials and the list goes on and on and on. The times are changing for the worse, not the better. The times are changing for the hatred of our fellow man not the enlightened acceptance of things condemned by the bible for centuries. The bible has forbidden r8pe for centuries as well, should we now accept it and simply say the perpetrator was just born that way let's all get along? Just accept it when some one exclaims "those Nids got r8ped by those space marines!" Or should we feel shame when a r8pist gets on here and says they are offended by it!? This community is so backwards it's sickening. Gay is gay and it's a choice people make just like murder, r8pe, racism and drunkenness. But we should forgive the crack head that kills a family of four for their money because he was born that way, it's not his fault. The poor gay priest who sodomized an entire community of children was just born that way. If you're gay so be it, try to say it's ok and you're simply wrong. The growing social acceptance of it is actually proof of its impropriety.

[Kirsten]

appropriate in a gaming store? no not really

but in a house, during games and a few beers? maybe, depends on context.

Of course this is the culture where calling your best mate a **nt or a ******* is considered friendly

edit: I was more referring to the assumption that the use of an expletive means that the person using it is automatically talking about meaning context when there are others.

as in using it when you roll bad dice does not make a person homophobic


as I said, its not a question of using someones sexual preferences as a derogatory comment, that is not what I'm arguin, I agree completely that is not appropriate.

I am arguing that the meaning of the word has changed. Maybe I'm just fortunate enough to hang around people who just don't care what relationship people are in if its none fo their damned business.

but the meaning hasn't changed. I have friends who occasionally use it as a curse, even one of whom is bisexual. they are not anti gay in any way shape or form, but they still use 'gay' as an insult occasionally because of habit. it used to be quite common in schools for kids to say it. my friends do not genuinely think that being gay is bad, but the use of the word in that fashion is still identifiably a slur against gay people. that is the whole reason that people use it as a curse word, because of the negative connotations.


Going there in 3...2...

So let's say you decided to find yourself some God. A Christian, God serving organization. Would you react differently if, during your first visit to the house of worship of your choosing that someone who actually knew the person who was speaking publicly informed you that the person was either...
A: drunk as they were speaking.
B: actively homosexual
C: a serial killer

Would any of those assertions about that person make you feel any differently about them?
The times they are definitely a changing, we are seeing more and more human suffering, sex trafficking, violence, hatred of our fellow man, drug abuse, disease, missing persons, corrupt officials and the list goes on and on and on. The times are changing for the worse, not the better. The times are changing for the hatred of our fellow man not the enlightened acceptance of things condemned by the bible for centuries. The bible has forbidden r8pe for centuries as well, should we now accept it and simply say the perpetrator was just born that way let's all get along? Just accept it when some one exclaims "those Nids got r8ped by those space marines!" Or should we feel shame when a r8pist gets on here and says they are offended by it!? This community is so backwards it's sickening. Gay is gay and it's a choice people make just like murder, r8pe, racism and drunkenness. But we should forgive the crack head that kills a family of four for their money because he was born that way, it's not his fault. The poor gay priest who sodomized an entire community of children was just born that way. If you're gay so be it, try to say it's ok and you're simply wrong. The growing social acceptance of it is actually proof of its impropriety.

what exactly is your point? are you seriously arguing that being gay is wrong?

[ElectricPaladin]

Going there in 3...2...

So let's say you decided to find yourself some God. A Christian, God serving organization. Would you react differently if, during your first visit to the house of worship of your choosing that someone who actually knew the person who was speaking publicly informed you that the person was either...
A: drunk as they were speaking.
B: actively homosexual
C: a serial killer

Would any of those assertions about that person make you feel any differently about them?
The times they are definitely a changing, we are seeing more and more human suffering, sex trafficking, violence, hatred of our fellow man, drug abuse, disease, missing persons, corrupt officials and the list goes on and on and on. The times are changing for the worse, not the better. The times are changing for the hatred of our fellow man not the enlightened acceptance of things condemned by the bible for centuries. The bible has forbidden r8pe for centuries as well, should we now accept it and simply say the perpetrator was just born that way let's all get along? Just accept it when some one exclaims "those Nids got r8ped by those space marines!" Or should we feel shame when a r8pist gets on here and says they are offended by it!? This community is so backwards it's sickening. Gay is gay and it's a choice people make just like murder, r8pe, racism and drunkenness. But we should forgive the crack head that kills a family of four for their money because he was born that way, it's not his fault. The poor gay priest who sodomized an entire community of children was just born that way. If you're gay so be it, try to say it's ok and you're simply wrong. The growing social acceptance of it is actually proof of its impropriety.

The problem is that you are conflating "homosexual" and "sexual predator." This is an incredibly pernicious idea, and until you get over it you are going to have a hard time really understanding the changes that our society is going through. I am going to tell you a few things about the gay people I know, but really the only cure is going to be if you go out and actually meet some gay people for yourself.

My friend John is an incredibly compassionate human being who has stood by me as my friend through some of the worst heartbreaks and depressive periods of my life. He introduced me to whiskey, got me through breakups, and helped me to survive the period in college when I started to realize just how abusive and evil my family was (I've posted about that elsewhere). I have met John's boyfriends. He is not an evil, abusive, or predatory person.

Alan has been through a lot, between his personal demons (clinical depression, mostly) and series of failed relationships, but that's pretty normal for a guy in his 20s. Despite it all, though, he always does his best to be there for his friends. He's an artist who cares deeply about recreating the American theatre scene and believes in the power of theatre to change and improve lives. I've met his boyfriends as well, and they're all consenting adults (albeit sometimes losers - but see above re: normal guy in his 20s).

I'm also going to point you at some statistical studies. This article (http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html) is great because it contains an extensive bibliography, so you can follow some links or do a little Google-Fu and discover the back-up to the information presented.

The thing is that homosexuality is a natural expression of sexuality. About 5% of humans are gay. About 10% of sheep are gay. The number varies in different animal communities. There's evidence that it's genetic, there's evidence that it comes from the expression in men of a gene that boosts fertility in females (and vice versa for female homosexuality). All the studies and experiments that establish these theories are available on the Internet - educate yourself.

So, the fact is that equating homosexuals with rapists is ignorant and foolish. The facts don't back you up. Rape is a crime committed by a sick person upon an innocent. Some rapists target adults, some target drunk people, and some target children. Homosexuality is a sexual identity practiced by consenting adults. There is no connection whatsoever outside of your fevered imagination. Homosexuals are no more likely to be rapists than heterosexuals.

Now, you seem to have some disdain for the idea of compassion for rapists, which I find odd given that you post in the context of religion. Aren't you folks supposed to have love and compassion in your hearts, even when faced with sinners? Nobody is saying that there shouldn't be consequences for a person's crimes, but shouldn't a good Christian be receptive to the idea that crimes like this are the result of a person's sickness, and this person should be first isolated so they can't hurt anyone else, then gradually - if possible - helped to recover? I'm not trying to make a policy argument here, I just think that your post expresses a failure of compassion that maybe you should think about.

As far as your religious laws, I'm a Jew, and I can tell you that you already don't follow many of the religious laws that our God gave to my people and you folks decided to jump on the bandwagon with, so please don't quote religious law as justification for your bigotry. How was that ham sandwich you had yesterday? Did you enjoy shrimp cocktail? Your savior freed you from those laws in the name of compassion - why can't you see your way to him having freed you from this law when there are actual facts backing it up?

[Kirsten]

As far as your religious laws, I'm a Jew, and I can tell you that you already don't follow many of the religious laws that our God gave to my people and you folks decided to jump on the bandwagon with, so please don't quote religious law as justification for your bigotry.

I loved that whole post, and the end made me laugh. high five.

[Mr Mystery]

Homophobia.

The fear that a gay man will treat you as badly as you treat women.

Cheesey quote, but a good 'un.

[Eric French]

I'm not saying that being gay is wrong, I'm agreeing with our creator that sex between two married people of the opposite sex is the only form of acceptable sex. Even back when it was the Jewish paladin's book exclusively and his God exclusively, before they killed our savior and ransom. So if the bible says it's wrong, both in the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures, then yes I believe it's wrong. I do not hate the gay person for their choice even though their conduct is detestable to our creator. We all deserve love. We need to try and recognize what is bad by what our creator says not by what our society accepts to be good. If you have no faith in a creator then "let's eat and drink for tomorrow we die"

[Mr Mystery]

Interesting word there, 'our'.

I think you mean 'your' on account not everyone is a Christian, and some are actually Atheist, like meself.

So if you have a faith? Bully for you. You follow that with all your heart, and don't do anything you feel might compromise that faith.

Just keep it to yourself.

[Nabterayl]

before they killed our savior and ransom.
Uh, brother ... I hope that was meant to be a joke. If so, it wasn't funny. We don't blame people for killing the sacrificial Lamb of God, and we certainly don't blame societies, and we certainly don't blame societies whose members have been literally beaten and killed on the grounds that "they killed Jesus."

[Mr Mystery]

If only I could find a suitable picture of Ivan Jellical out of Viz.

[Kirsten]

I'm not saying that being gay is wrong, I'm agreeing with our creator that sex between two married people of the opposite sex is the only form of acceptable sex. Even back when it was the Jewish paladin's book exclusively and his God exclusively, before they killed our savior and ransom. So if the bible says it's wrong, both in the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures, then yes I believe it's wrong. I do not hate the gay person for their choice even though their conduct is detestable to our creator. We all deserve love. We need to try and recognize what is bad by what our creator says not by what our society accepts to be good. If you have no faith in a creator then "let's eat and drink for tomorrow we die"

The problem there is that marriage is not a Christian institution. or even a jewish one, or any religion. marriages have been taking place for thousands of years. it is completely irrelevant what your god thinks about them, it is nothing to do with him. also, their conduct is not detestable to your creator. how do I know this? very simple. the bible is not divine, it is not absolute, it is some myth and some guidelines laid down by people. if you believe the bible is divine, then why has the message been changed? how many slaves do you own? how many women have you stoned to death? do you cut your hair? do you eat meat on a friday? all of these laws have changed because society has changed them. you wont find many priests, vicars, rabbis etc. in favour of slavery, and yet the good book clearly states it is right. did god change his mind? or did people decide it was wrong? it doesn't matter which you think, because the moment you change a part of the book's message, for whatever reason, then it is no longer divine authority. you have cherry picked the bits you want to believe, therefore you cannot use any part of it to justify those beliefs. all of it, or none of it.

[DarkLink]

I can't remember the last time I've heard someone use gay as a pejorative in real life.

[Eric French]

The problem there is that marriage is not a Christian institution. or even a jewish one, or any religion. marriages have been taking place for thousands of years. it is completely irrelevant what your god thinks about them, it is nothing to do with him. also, their conduct is not detestable to your creator. how do I know this? very simple. the bible is not divine, it is not absolute, it is some myth and some guidelines laid down by people. if you believe the bible is divine, then why has the message been changed? how many slaves do you own? how many women have you stoned to death? do you cut your hair? do you eat meat on a friday? all of these laws have changed because society has changed them. you wont find many priests, vicars, rabbis etc. in favour of slavery, and yet the good book clearly states it is right. did god change his mind? or did people decide it was wrong? it doesn't matter which you think, because the moment you change a part of the book's message, for whatever reason, then it is no longer divine authority. you have cherry picked the bits you want to believe, therefore you cannot use any part of it to justify those beliefs. all of it, or none of it.
When Jesus arrived on the scene he disbanded the old law code that was given to the Israelites. He made a new covenant with his followers just before his death. He is allowed to change things as the law giver. The ancient Israelites begged for minute details on how to live and deal with the most minimal of offenses up to and including murder. So the law was provided. The principles that guided them have always remained the same. The "eye for an eye" was literally mentioned by Jesus that it needed to become "forgiveness". The first marriage was performed by God in the garden of Eden as chronicled in the book of genesis. The bible is most definitely inspired by our divine creator and there is no discrepancy in his authorship, his message or above all his loving kindness. I understand you disagree, I'm not hostile and I can respect your journey only as much as I know of it, otherwise I'm assuming and it's not beneficial. It's actual foretelling of the future that makes the bible legitimate. No other document in history can prove such a claim.

- - - Updated - - -


Uh, brother ... I hope that was meant to be a joke. If so, it wasn't funny. We don't blame people for killing the sacrificial Lamb of God, and we certainly don't blame societies, and we certainly don't blame societies whose members have been literally beaten and killed on the grounds that "they killed Jesus."

It was most certainly not a joke, the poster had claimed the bible as "his" and that he was a Jew and it is historical FACT that they indeed killed Jesus. It's not a controversy it's reality. I was dramatically blaming "him" because he came across as having sole ownership of things. Did you not read his post?

[SquigBrain]

I can't remember the last time I've heard someone use gay as a pejorative in real life.

You must not play videogames online. :P

RE: the rest of this. You lot are swerving way off our topic, which is inflammatory in and of itself, into yet another inflammatory topic. Please stick to one flame-war inducing subject at a time. :)

[Gotthammer]

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[DarkLink]

You must not play videogames online. :P"In real life."

[Kirsten]

When Jesus arrived on the scene he disbanded the old law code that was given to the Israelites. He made a new covenant with his followers just before his death. He is allowed to change things as the law giver. The ancient Israelites begged for minute details on how to live and deal with the most minimal of offenses up to and including murder. So the law was provided. The principles that guided them have always remained the same. The "eye for an eye" was literally mentioned by Jesus that it needed to become "forgiveness". The first marriage was performed by God in the garden of Eden as chronicled in the book of genesis. The bible is most definitely inspired by our divine creator and there is no discrepancy in his authorship, his message or above all his loving kindness. I understand you disagree, I'm not hostile and I can respect your journey only as much as I know of it, otherwise I'm assuming and it's not beneficial. It's actual foretelling of the future that makes the bible legitimate. No other document in history can prove such a claim.


except that the garden of eden is not actually real, it is a myth. you say 'loving kindness' and yet you talk about things being detestable... the bible does not foretell anything either. it is simply a hodgepodge of older religions, it picks bits and pieces from greek, roman, egyptian myth and spins it into a retelling. it was translated, edited, re-translated, bits cut out. it is a book written by men, for men.

as for Jesus it would be a fact were it actually true.

[Houghten]

and it is historical FACT that they indeed killed Jesus.

Uh... I'm pretty sure that was the Romans.

[wayne williams]

i understand this is the place to discus fiction but really the fluff in the bible is awful and so badly written that im sure gw had some thing to do with its proof reading.and those bible fan boys are really fanatical. as for your imaginary friend im glad he makes you happy but personally he does nothing for me . so lets get on to the real issue here should i name my space marines the purple unicorns of doom or would that be offensive.

[daboarder]

so.....that was weird.......

um moving on?

so the earth is apparently flat........

....I think I got dumber reading that.....dammit I NEEDED those brain cells, I have a thesis to write

[ElectricPaladin]

It was most certainly not a joke, the poster had claimed the bible as "his" and that he was a Jew and it is historical FACT that they indeed killed Jesus. It's not a controversy it's reality. I was dramatically blaming "him" because he came across as having sole ownership of things. Did you not read his post?

Not ownership, but perspective, a stake, and leverage to ask you to justify your stance. That's not the same thing.

Let's put it this way - if you were trying to argue about a Warhammer 40k rule, and someone who only plays Warmachine were to debate your interpretation, you could reasonably say "you don't really have a dog in this fight, you don't know the rules, and you haven't got anything to say about it."

All I'm saying is "look, the game I play isn't all that different from the game you play, and I have a few questions about your interpretation."

You still, by the way, haven't debated my claims. You've just said that I killed Jesus. By the way, if I actually am a deicide, maybe you shouldn't piss me off. I mean, I killed God, so apparently, I'm pretty badass :D.

Also, "the Jewish paladin?" I'm tickled pink.

If you need my question restated, I'll put it like this: for some reason you've chosen the cruelest, most exclusive, and most dehumanizing interpretation of the text, despite the fact that you believe that God himself sent his only son down to tell you that it was ok to reinterpret that text in the name of love and compassion... why have you done that?

[Deadlift]

^Why I love BoLS so much, creating friendly space for everyone ftw.

Couldn't agree more :D

[Chexmix282]

*grabs popcorn*

*waiting for Eric French to counter Electric Paladin's eloquent argument*

[Gleipnir]

I know its a little old fashioned these days, but I still remember being told if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[daboarder]

I know its a little old fashioned these days, but I still remember being told if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

As I said previously "insults" can be a cultural thing.

IE:
Which one of you *******s called this ******* a *******?

Gravely offensive to an englishman at the time.

Considered cordial conversation in australia

[Wildeybeast]

They may be a cultural thing, but I live in a culture which has gay people in it and AFAIK they don't really like their sexuality being used as an insult. Surely that is all that matters?

[daboarder]

They may be a cultural thing, but I live in a culture which has gay people in it and AFAIK they don't really like their sexuality being used as an insult. Surely that is all that matters?

Oh come on WILDEY

bloody hell thats not what I frakking said.

[Wildeybeast]

But surely that is what it boils down? I know what you are driving at about the change in usage of words, but we can't just escape the way that word has been used in the past. Gay is used as an insult because of the implication that there is something wrong with being gay. I don't see how you can use gay as an insult and not have the implication.

[FireHazard]

Going back to the original question...

Can it be? Yes

SHOULD it be? Hell no.

I think that the word gay is no longer used, at all, to refer to something lighthearted or bright. It seems to solely refer to a person's sexual orientation and is either used positively, negatively or simply descriptively.

Being gay is neither positive or negative, in my opinion (despite it's originally positive use). It's just something a person is.