Hellbrute "Mayhem Pack"

[Eberk]

Does anyone know if you have to Deep Strike the 3 Hellbrutes from the Mayhem pack to the same location (like a unit) and then move them seperatly (1 Deep Strike roll) OR you can choose where each of the 3 arrive seperatly (3 Deep Strike rolls) ?

According to the way it is written in the Dataslate it seems they don't have to be deployed together, thus 3 Deep Strike rolls (which would be soooooo cool). It would then really live up to its name : Mayhem

[This Dave]

I don't recall anything stating they have to stay in coherency so they should arrive individually. Like it says, they're not there to take and hold anything, just disrupt and destroy the enemy until they themselves are destroyed.

[Eberk]

Additional question:

"at THE START OF YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE they must roll on the Crazed table (emphasis added by me)
Arriving by Deep strike... when does that occur in your turn ?
The rules say both "at the start of your turn" and "in the movement phase when they arrive".

Question is if they should roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive on the table or does it start from the next turn onwards ?

[Nabterayl]

Usual rule for simultaneity: the player whose turn it is picks which to resolve first (page 9). So you can either roll Crazed first and then Deep Strike, knowing what the result already is, or Deep Strike first and then roll Crazed.

[Charon]

Usual rule for simultaneity: the player whose turn it is picks which to resolve first (page 9). So you can either roll Crazed first and then Deep Strike, knowing what the result already is, or Deep Strike first and then roll Crazed.

If you decide to roll crazed first, you dont roll at all as the brutes are not in the game yet (models in reserve dont interact with the table in any kind). A psyker in reserve cant buff himself while still being held in reserve, he must first arrive on the table to do so.
So its either no roll at all or arrive and then roll (first one is probably better as 3 Helbrutes which are forced to run will probably die pretty fast)

[Nabterayl]

If you decide to roll crazed first, you dont roll at all as the brutes are not in the game yet (models in reserve dont interact with the table in any kind). A psyker in reserve cant buff himself while still being held in reserve, he must first arrive on the table to do so.
Those don't really seem like comparable examples to me. Psykers casting spells off the table is an action that the model does; rolling Crazed just specifies behavior in the upcoming Shooting phase or adds the Rage special rule. And I'm not aware of any general principle that models off the table don't roll on tables of any kind.

[DrBored]

Does anyone know if you have to Deep Strike the 3 Hellbrutes from the Mayhem pack to the same location (like a unit) and then move them seperatly (1 Deep Strike roll) OR you can choose where each of the 3 arrive seperatly (3 Deep Strike rolls) ?

According to the way it is written in the Dataslate it seems they don't have to be deployed together, thus 3 Deep Strike rolls (which would be soooooo cool). It would then really live up to its name : Mayhem

On the contrary, it's what is *not* said that hints at how you can deploy them.

Later in the same DataSlate, one of the other Formations is a vehicle squadron, and follows those rules. The Mayhem formation is not a squadron, and the only requirement is that the entire formation gets their reserve roll at the same time. You can put them wherever you want, they act independently, it's 3 separate Helbrutes.

[DarkLink]

You roll on the Crazed table. It's not an ability they're attempting to use, it's a special rule they have. Compare to Blood Angels, or DE combat drugs. You simply roll to determine what rules that unit gains, even if they don't start on the board. Whether you do it before or after you deepstrike is irrelevant.

[Charon]

Warpstorm table?
Do your units in reserve suffer from a "2" result? Neither the warpstorm table nor the specific result state that it only affects models on the table while the result "3" mentions to choose a charakter on the table.

[DarkLink]

Warpstorm table is an armywide rule, not a unit-specific rule. But you could actually argue that. GW simply is not specific enough. If you want to get really pedantic about it, you probably won't ever get a straight answer. Regardless, it specifies that you always roll for your Crazed result, given the lack of the normal requirement for taking a glance/pen, and I see no restriction whatsoever that would prevent you from rolling for a unit that's about to come on the board. For comparison, psykers are explicitly banned from using their ability. Almost every other similar ability to psykers will specify specifically "while the model is on the board" if that restriction exists. And, of course, as Nab said, since it's your player turn you can pick the order in which to resolve these things, ergo you may roll for Crazed.

[Charon]

Combat Drugs is completely different as it is a rule which applies all game long and is rolled before units are deployed (same as psi and traits).
Crazed on the other hand is the special rule of a unit. This unit is not on the table, so it cant use its special rule. You also would not get IWND rolls for units in reserve (which would also automatically occur) or have to test for grotesques rampage.

So yes. You MAY roll for crazed. You just cant roll for crazed before the unit is physically on the table.

[DarkLink]

So the examples I provide that are pretty closely related to Crazed are irrelevant, but the one of the two cases (psykers are irrelevant) may or may not be relevant so it automatically makes the ambiguous argument immediately turn in your favor? Sure, whatever. Point is, you roll for Crazed. If you want to add on the irrelevant "you must roll after you've placed the models" every time, go ahead. But it doesn't really matter, so I'm not really sure why we're still arguing about it.

[Tynskel]

So the examples I provide that are pretty closely related to Crazed are irrelevant, but the one of the two cases (psykers are irrelevant) may or may not be relevant so it automatically makes the ambiguous argument immediately turn in your favor? Sure, whatever. Point is, you roll for Crazed. If you want to add on the irrelevant "you must roll after you've placed the models" every time, go ahead. But it doesn't really matter, so I'm not really sure why we're still arguing about it.

irrelevant

[DarkLink]

Pretty much.

[Eberk]

Logical/fluff-wise thing to do is thus to first Deep Strike them and then roll on the Crazed table. That way they are 'crazed' from the moment they arrive on the table (and the fun begins :) )

[Charon]

So the examples I provide that are pretty closely related to Crazed are irrelevant, but the one of the two cases (psykers are irrelevant) may or may not be relevant so it automatically makes the ambiguous argument immediately turn in your favor? Sure, whatever. Point is, you roll for Crazed. If you want to add on the irrelevant "you must roll after you've placed the models" every time, go ahead. But it doesn't really matter, so I'm not really sure why we're still arguing about it.

The examples you provided have a completely different wording.
The rules for combat drugs state that you roll for the effect BEFORE ANY MODEL IS PLACED ON THE TABLE. This is in no way closely related to "at the beginning of the movement phase".
Do you have another example of a unit special rule (this is no army wide rule) you roll while the unit is still in reserve?
According to "you can roll before deepstrike and have to roll every turn" you could lose an entire unit of Grotesques before they even get on the table (as you have to oll their rampage every turn too).
I never heard of any unit special rule that applies while the unit is not on the table (and is not explicitly stated that you roll when the unit is off table).

So in this case unit placement has to go first. Then roll for crazed. The order of events here can make a huge difference. If you would know your crazed result before you place them you would consider your reuslt before placing them (eg. a Helbrute with double shot would be placed on an other location as if he had his "must kill evrything in close combat" result.)

[Kevlarshark]

Tyranids didn't have to roll for Instinctive behaviour on the turn they entered play. I don't know its been addressed in the new dex, but have no reason to think it will work out any different. Its the closest I can think of as a precedent.