(Yet another) multiple combat query

[Wolfshade]

I was playing an apocalypse game yesterday and an interesting situation arose, 1 squad of terminators wtih 3 independant characters (Chaplain, Corbulo and Mephiston) charged into combat wiping out two squads of guardians. For the consoldation move I dropped my independant characters behind a wall of terminators so that they could not be in base to base combat.
The next turn they were charged by shinning spears, fire dragons, dark reapers, banshees and an avatar. Because of the positioning of my terminators on my consolodation move only the terminators were in base to base contact, even after the counter charge.
The wounds I took to the squad then left my independant characters unengaged in combat, at this point what happens, I believed that the combat was over since there was no-one left to fight and a consolodation move should be made, my friend thought that the independant characters were still part of the combat and so everyone would need to take a pile in move after the combat resolution.

Some clarity would be useful

[DarkLink]

IC's attach and detach at the end of the controlling player's movement phase. So if the IC's were attached to the Terminators when you assaulted, they would still be attached when the terminators got assaulted in your opponent's turn. If they were not attached, then they were a separate unit than the terminators and thus not part of the new combat.

[Wolfshade]

Thanks DarkLink.

The rules also say that in combat that they are treated independantly so if the squad they were attached to got wiped out, but no wounds could be allocated against the ics as they weren't within range for the combat they would still be treated as being part of the destroyed squad until the start of the controlling players turn?

[Jwolf]

Because the ICs were in close combat, the Eldar would pile in into BtB with the SM Characters (as the Eldar charged). If this pile in did not get everyone into BtB, then the ICs would have to pile in as well. If any individual IC was not in BtB at the end of the pile in moves, then that IC would no longer be in combat.

[Culven]

The rules also say that in combat that they are treated independantly so if the squad they were attached to got wiped out, but no wounds could be allocated against the ics as they weren't within range for the combat they would still be treated as being part of the destroyed squad until the start of the controlling players turn?
Correct. ICs are only treated as separate units when making attacks. They are still part of the unit and will be subject to the appropriate Morale checks at the end of combat.

I'm curious, how did the ICs stay out of combat when they were required to be moved first per the Defenders React rules? It sounds like there were a lot of enemy models/units, which would make it more difficult for them to not be able to get into BtB.

If any individual IC was not in BtB at the end of the pile in moves, then that IC would no longer be in combat.
While the IC wouldn't be able to make attacks, it is still involved in the combat and will be subject to the combat resolution.

[Wolfshade]

I'm curious, how did the ICs stay out of combat when they were required to be moved first per the Defenders React rules? It sounds like there were a lot of enemy models/units, which would make it more difficult for them to not be able to get into BtB.

Enemy vehicle one side, impassable terrain the other and 10 TH/SS terminators in a confined space, meant that even with the reaction they were still out of combat range as they couldn't react through the termies.

Thanks everyone for the help, so the ics are all part of the same squad as they were within 2" of the TH/SS squad when combat was initiated, the ics were out of range of the combat to be hit and so can't have wounds allocated against them they would still suffer from being out numbered and take wounds if they lost the combat resolution and the ics would still remain one squad until they were no longer in combat and in the subsequent movement turn restore squad coherancy and then move out of cohereancy to become ics and not a squad of ics

[DarkLink]

Thanks everyone for the help, so the ics are all part of the same squad as they were within 2" of the TH/SS squad when combat was initiated, the ics were out of range of the combat to be hit and so can't have wounds allocated against them they would still suffer from being out numbered and take wounds if they lost the combat resolution and the ics would still remain one squad until they were no longer in combat and in the subsequent movement turn restore squad coherancy and then move out of cohereancy to become ics and not a squad of ics

Bit of a run-on sentence :p, but appears correct.

[Jwolf]

@ Culven - If the entire squad is destroyed and the ICs are the only models left standing, and the pile-ins do not get an IC into BtB, then the IC is no longer part of a squad involved in combat, and would not be bound to continue in the battle. If even one member of the squad was alive, the IC would still be required to continue in the combat, but the squad being dead means that the IC out of BtB would no longer be involved in the combat in any way.

This situation has not occured for me even once in a very significant number of 5e 40K games. It is theoretically possible, but I think practically not an issue.

(Reference the PILE-IN section, P.40)

[Culven]

If the entire squad is destroyed and the ICs are the only models left standing, and the pile-ins do not get an IC into BtB, then the IC is no longer part of a squad involved in combat, and would not be bound to continue in the battle.
I don't understand why you believe this. The IC rules clearly state that the IC may not leave a unit during the Shooting and Assault phases, nor may they leave while the unit is Locked. Even if the rest of the unit was destroyed, the ICs would still be considered part of the unit until such time as they are permitted to leave the unit. So, when making Pile In moves, the ICs would still be a unit, and even if one were unable to reach BtB, it wouldn't revert to being an independant unit.

If even one member of the squad was alive, the IC would still be required to continue in the combat, but the squad being dead means that the IC out of BtB would no longer be involved in the combat in any way.
Just to clarify, are you refering to a unit with a single IC joined to it, in which the rest of the unit was destroyed? If so then I agree. If you are refering to a unit with multiple Ics joined to it in which the unit was destroyed with only the ICs remaining (as is the situation I am addressing since it was the situation in the original post), I disagree with your conclusions. The ICs would be the remains of the unit until such time as they can move away from the unit. Until then, if any of them are in BtB, all of them will be Locked and unable to wander off.

[Jwolf]

We'll have to disagree, as I see no rule allowing ICs to form a unit and I don't believe any model can be called part of something which does not exist, so the moment the unit ceases to exist none of the characters are part of the unit.

[Nabterayl]

We'll have to disagree, as I see no rule allowing ICs to form a unit
First paragraph of page 48 doesn't get you there?

[DarkLink]

I don't understand why you believe this. The IC rules clearly state that the IC may not leave a unit during the Shooting and Assault phases, nor may they leave while the unit is Locked. Even if the rest of the unit was destroyed, the ICs would still be considered part of the unit until such time as they are permitted to leave the unit. So, when making Pile In moves, the ICs would still be a unit, and even if one were unable to reach BtB, it wouldn't revert to being an independant unit.

Anytime you have two units in combat that cannot reach B2B after all pile-in moves are made, the combat automatically ends. It's not a likely scenario, though I think I have seen it happen once before.

Let's say you have a unit that is really strung out. It assaults two enemy units that are really far apart. Both enemy units survive, but the strung-out unit takes a bunch of casualties, all of which are removed from one end of the congo-line. One enemy unit is no longer in B2B, and so attempts to pile in, while the other unit stays where it is, as it is already in B2B. If the enemy unit that is left alone cannot reach B2B after it's pile-in move, it is no longer part of the combat.

Just an example, for illustrative purposes.


We'll have to disagree, as I see no rule allowing ICs to form a unit and I don't believe any model can be called part of something which does not exist, so the moment the unit ceases to exist none of the characters are part of the unit.

As Nab pointed out, IC's can join with any other unit (except Vehicles and whatnot). This includes forming "super-units".

[Jwolf]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I see no rule allowing the ICs who were part of a unit to form a unit during the assault phase after the parent unit is destroyed. If the ICs were joined to each other at the start, they would be a unit still. If the ICs are joined to a unit and the unit is destroyed, they are now 3 individuals, as they cannot belong to something that does not exist.

The unit cannot join an IC, so for the 3 ICs to be joined together with a unit, everyone had to join the unit. Once the unit is gone, they ICs can no longer be part of it and thus revert to being ICs. At least that's the best I can see happening.

I apologize for doing the whole "writing only about what I'm thinking, and not filling in my assumptions or the things I take as otherwise given" thing; that just confuses the issue.

[Nabterayl]

If the ICs were joined to each other at the start, they would be a unit still. If the ICs are joined to a unit and the unit is destroyed, they are now 3 individuals, as they cannot belong to something that does not exist.
It sounds like you're imagining five terminators and three ICs as a unit of terminators that is joined by three "satellite" ICs, and thus, once you destroy the "hub" (the terminators), the three ICs are suddenly no longer joined to anything.

I don't think that's the right way to think about units. If it were, that would make units composed solely of ICs very difficult to analyze. Which IC would be the hub? Or, if units composed solely of ICs don't have a hub, what's the textual basis for giving them a different model than units composed of ICs and non-ICs?

It seems to me like the better model is to say that five terminators joined by three ICs collectively comprise "unit A" and so, if the five terminators are destroyed, the three ICs are still part of unit A. That avoids reading a hub model into the rules, which I don't see a basis for.

[DarkLink]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I see no rule allowing the ICs who were part of a unit to form a unit during the assault phase after the parent unit is destroyed. If the ICs were joined to each other at the start, they would be a unit still. If the ICs are joined to a unit and the unit is destroyed, they are now 3 individuals, as they cannot belong to something that does not exist.

The unit cannot join an IC, so for the 3 ICs to be joined together with a unit, everyone had to join the unit. Once the unit is gone, they ICs can no longer be part of it and thus revert to being ICs. At least that's the best I can see happening.

I apologize for doing the whole "writing only about what I'm thinking, and not filling in my assumptions or the things I take as otherwise given" thing; that just confuses the issue.

Ok, yeah, misunderstood your comment. Though I do agree with Nab's post above.

[BuFFo]

The IC is still part of the unit, even if it is a lone model after combat, because the rules specifically state an IC can leave a unit only in the movement phase.

Whether the Terminators are alive or dead, the Terminator unit still exists as long as the IC is joined to it.

5 Terminators = Unit A

5 Terminators and an IC joined to it = Unit B

IC alone after the terminators die in combat = Unit B

IC declared to be his own unit in owner's movement phase = Unit C

[Denzark]

What Senor la Buey said.

[rle68]

We'll have to disagree, as I see no rule allowing ICs to form a unit and I don't believe any model can be called part of something which does not exist, so the moment the unit ceases to exist none of the characters are part of the unit.

Jwolf is 100% correct on this topic

[Culven]

Jwolf is 100% correct on this topic
Do you have any rules citations to support this interpretation? I have always been under the understanding the a unit is constituted by all models within it, including ICs. If all of the models except for the ICs (and this requires more than one in the unit) are removed as casualties, the ICs are still considered to constitute that unit until such time as they may choose to move out of coherency. I do not know of any rules that clearly address the situation and state definitively that the ICs are or are not still part of the same unit when only they are left, but I may have overlooked something. Is there anything that you can point me to that will provide enlightenment?

I suppose the two sides that I see here could be summarised as: 1) The ICs are joined to the base squad and without it they are no longer attached, lets call this the "Satelite" approach. 2) The ICs and squad are all one unit each model attached to each other with the concept of the "unit" holding them all together, lets call this the "Basket" approach.

It seems that Jwolf is a "Satelite" guy, whereas I am a "Basket" guy. Are there any rules which lend support to one of these?

[Jwolf]

I've not been able to find any, Culven. I suppose that means I'm stuck with a Basket applying to my guys, whereas my opponents have the Satelite, if they so choose.

[Wolfshade]

I've not been able to find any, Culven. I suppose that means I'm stuck with a Basket applying to my guys, whereas my opponents have the Satelite, if they so choose.

"They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the vehicles section) and units that always consists of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures), except that they can join other independent characters to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

That's from independant characters joining and leaving units box, and because of what else is in that section, that they can only be moved out of a unit during the movement phase meant that until they have a movement phase they are stuck in CC as a squad.

[Jwolf]

Wolfshade - the question is if two or more ICs join a unit, are they a unit after the parent unit is destroyed. I think no, Culven thinks yes, and we have only our opinions, no rule stating which is the case. We all agree that ICs can join one another, but we don't have anything telling us that they remain a unit after the parent unit is destroyed.

I'll grant, outside of Apocalypse, this is an exceptionally rare circumstance. And it's even more unlikely that the parent unit would be destroyed in close combat, the ICs survive, and one IC be too far away to consolidate into BtB after the end of the round. So the answer is not terribly important, just more of an entertainment to ponder.

[Lord Azaghul]

Since this isn't a common occurance for IG, I can't fully comment on this specific situation - however I would tend to think that 2 IC could NOT join each other, but that's more of a leftover from playing fantasy where they can not, and should their unit be wiped out would indeed become two different units.

[Wolfshade]

I think that there is an over complication with this "parent unit" wording since they join the unit and become the unit move with the unit take wounds from shooting with the unit, therefore while they are alive they are still the unit untill they can move out of it as per the independant character joining/leaving squad rules in the movement phase. It is counter-intuative to read it the way that I and others have done but this point of view hangs on how the ICs have to move to leave a unit and that is only in the movement phase.

Since this happened in a game I was playing it was important as if they weren't part of the squad then they wouldn't be locked in combat and so could either make a tactical withdrawl from overwhelming odds or assault them and so get the bonuses from charging into combat.

[Jwolf]

Oh, they were in the combat at the start, so they would have to try to get into BtB after the round of combat. If after both sides piled-in, any ICs were left out of BtB, then we'd have an issue. But if the unit is wiped out and they could pile-in, they would do so.