Messing with the Broken Force Org chart!

[interrogator_chaplain]

I'm not sure how many of you have seen the excellent updated Force Org chart by Oliver East on the Apocalypse 40k Facebook Group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/121174491289187/) he's done a great job showing what's legal in a standard game of 40k.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-U0-L-Pl06aY/Uyd8sgq60CI/AAAAAAAABUc/UbcknVkZTrg/s1600/Force+Org.png

So please allow me, a Dark Angels player, to make a 1850pt list using this update here:

HQ:
Librarian with Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Power Field Generator, Psychic Hood and Mastery Level 2.
135 Points.

Elites:
Deathwing Terminator Squad with 5 Terminators.
220 Points.

Troops:
Scout Squad with 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles.
120 Points.
Scout Squad with 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles.
120 Points.

Allies - Necrons
HQ:
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword and Ressurection Orb.
120 Points.

Troops:
5 Necron Warriors with Gauss Flayers. Mounted in Night Scythe.
165 Points.

Fortifications:
Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun.
100 Points.

Inquisitorial Detachment:
Coteaz with Bolt Pistol, Dark Excommunication, Frag, Krak and Psyk-out Grenades, Hammerhand, Master Crafted Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, Psyber Eagle and Sanctuary.
100 Points.

Legion of the Damned Detachment:
Legionnaire Squad with 10 Legionnaires, Sergeant with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol, 1 with Plasma Gun and 1 with Heavy Flamer.
395 Points. (Using Space Marine codex rules, couldn't find anything updated with Codex: Legion of the Damned yet.)

Knight Detachment:
Knight Paladin with Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, 2 Heavy Stubbers and Reaper Chainblade.
375 Points.

Total: 1850 Points.

This is a 100% legal list according to the rules given to us. It's only because, as a Dark Angel player, I can't take Cypher that I didn't include him, but an Eldar Player could. Because reasons. Also due to the points size, I didn't take a Lord of War. But I could have.

Honestly the first time I saw this chart, I totally understood why we're hearing rumblings of a 7th Ed. Rulebook. Because they've completely screwed the pooch on 6th. :rolleyes:

Feel free to post your messed up list combinations!
(Hat tip to Most Perturbatory blog (http://perturbatory.blogspot.ca/2014/03/updated-force-organization-chart.html)for bringing this to my attention! Be sure to check out the other pics of the legal army list (There's 37 in total.) and the picture outlining the most current FAQ's and Errata available.)

[daboarder]

PFFT!!!

Thats wrong, this is the FOC

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5053/focd.jpg

oh right, I see what I've done here. I forgot, I was playing nids....


HAR HAR!!

but seriously at least we get some awesome dataslates

[Mr Mystery]

Choice! Variety! NEW THINGS!

Traditionally the death knell of.....Erm....

[Houghten]

This is a 100% legal list according to the rules given to us.

Nnnnot quite, I'm afraid.

The Inquisitorial detachment and the Legion of the Damned detachment are both "Come the Apocalypse" to the Necron detachment, and therefore cannot be included in the same army.

Edit: As is the Imperial Knight detachment. Man, most of your army really hates Necrons.

[ToHitMod]

PFFT!!!

Thats wrong, this is the FOC

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5053/focd.jpg

oh right, I see what I've done here. I forgot, I was playing nids....


HAR HAR!!

but seriously at least we get some awesome dataslates

You can have a Lord of War and Formations in there, and Fortifications.

[interrogator_chaplain]

Ahh, but Necrons aren't the primary detachment? When considering the allies, there's nothing that says the Allied detachment must be able to ally with the Knights, Inquisition, etc.

@Mr.Mystery, Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that these things exist. But the fact that I can make this list is an abomination to the background that GW fights so hard to protect from outside forces. The rules regarding all these new detachments seriously need to be tightened up, because this is crazy.

[Demonus]

Are you sure there is nothing saying they don't have to ally with all parties? Someone on Warseer brought this up and it was mentioned that this was in fact the case preventing Chaos players from taking Imperial Knights (Primary IG, Ally CSM, Detachment IK)

[interrogator_chaplain]

Looking in the BRB, there's nothing stating that the Allied Detachment must be compatible with the other formations. Most likely due to the fact that they never existed when it was written. I checked the Primary Detachment, Allied Detachment and the rules regarding allies. Nothing against taking Knights with an allied detachment of Necrons.

[Demonus]

Awesome if that's the case. Chaos Players will have an option plus IK + Hell Drake = Fun times!

[Charon]

There is no rule against it (as the core rules are outdated in this regard). But I have a feeling that we possibly will get rid of the FOC in the "not 7th" edition as there is no restriction for most armies anyways. Seems stupid to restrict some armies to the FOC while most imperial armies seem to completely ignore it (ally with yourself to get more slots, ally with LotD to get more elite slots, ally with knights to get lords of war without actually getting Lords of war, ect.)

[Wolfshade]

Having a double FOC isn't really ignoring it. It certainly increases your options I will grant you.

But removal of the FOC I would see as a step backwards. After all GW don't really want you to be fielding a 2000pt army comprised solely of Librarians like you could back in 2nd. Then you could also have issues that the whole Warlord mechanic would be lost as you could have armies without a single HQ.

But who knows. While clunky I like the spirit of the FOC.

[interrogator_chaplain]

@Demonus: If you play with Chaos Marines as your primary, you can't do it as they're Come the Apocalypse for CSM but Battle Brothers for DA. However, if you played Tau with a CSM detachment, you could indeed play a Heldrake with a Knight.

[Charon]

You could not do that in 2nd.
Contrary to popular belief 2nd was not "bring anything you want". We had a % based FOC then.
Max 50% Characters (Librarians count as those), min 25% troops (everything), max 25% vehicles, max 25% allies.
While it was somewhat possible to bring 75% characters its not really different from now (as you can go with Belakor, 4 Daemonprinces, 1 greater Daemon, Cypher and you are at roughly 1500 points without any troops). And tryhard players tend to bend the FoC anyways (CSM ally with BL to get a 4th drake) so why not get rid of it entirely and bring more "formationesque" solutions? Imho they are more easy to balance pointwise, could promote sales and offer more interesting rules.

[Demonus]

@Demonus: If you play with Chaos Marines as your primary, you can't do it as they're Come the Apocalypse for CSM but Battle Brothers for DA. However, if you played Tau with a CSM detachment, you could indeed play a Heldrake with a Knight.

Yeah you would have to go IG as primary with allied CSM. Which is ok as you can still get that Hell Drake in there!

[DrBored]

I'm going to take it a step further.

Primary: IG
Allied: Chaos Daemons
Formations: Helbrutes
+ Imperial Knights
+ Inquisition

Use Penitent Engines as the Helbrutes and the Daemons will be my Daemon Hosts.

[interrogator_chaplain]

I see no problem with the above.

[DrBored]

Better yet, I could even throw Be'Lakor as the HQ for my Chaos Daemons, and throw in a Legion of the Damned force as well. And, if rumors hold, I may even be able to swap IG out for Stormtroopers instead (as long as they have the same allies as IG) or otherwise will be able to attach Stormtroopers to the IG list.

Yep. It's getting pretty wonky in here, but as soon as you deviate from Imperium things, you really get limited.

If your Primary is Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Necron, or Orks, you suddenly lose a lot of options.

So, here's hoping we get some Xenos love, perhaps in the form of a Codex: Alien Mercenaries or something.

[Houghten]

I'm going to quote from my Knight codex, because it's the one I have in my hand:


the Imperial Knights may have a different relationship to the models from an army's primary detachment, and the models that make up that army's 'regular' allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

While this does not specifically mention Come the Apocalypse, it is clear enough that different detachments retain their different levels of ally-ship. If that Knight and those Tau are within 6" of one another, they have to roll for One Eye Open, even though the Guardsmen and Tau can get as close as they like (well, within 1" anyway - being Allies of Convenience, they still follow some of the rules for enemy units).

Therefore, if your Knight is Come the Apocalypse to your Allied Detachment, they carry right on following the rules for Come the Apocalypse, regardless of either detachment's relationship to your Primary Detachment. And what are the rules for Come the Apocalypse? Well, they're a bit harsher than simply doing nothing 1/6 of the time if you're too close:


Simply put, this kind of alliance cannot occur - there's too much bad blood between these two armies. You'll have to look elsewhere for aid.

So... yeah. You can't do it. It cannot occur. I really don't see another way of interpreting it.


---


Not so much a counter-argument as an "um..." but I can't figure out why the newer special codexes don't have Ally Matrix entries for the older ones. What is the Inquisition's relationship to the Knights? How about the Legion of the Damned? Can I join an Inquisitor to a Damned squad? (Fluff says hell no, events always conspire to confound the Inquisitor's efforts to even get close, but, well, fluff and rules are like the sights on an ork's shoota: they don't always line up.) If my Knight is standing within 6" of my Henchmen, do they need to roll for One Eye Open? Can I even take more than one type of "special detachment"? And even if I can't, what about for when one of them is the primary detachment? If I wanted to represent the Legion showing up to bail out a Knight who got in over his head (primary Legion with a Knight detachment), what level of alliance is that? Why doesn't it say?

[DrBored]

I'm going to quote from my Knight codex, because it's the one I have in my hand:



While this does not specifically mention Come the Apocalypse, it is clear enough that different detachments retain their different levels of ally-ship. If that Knight and those Tau are within 6" of one another, they have to roll for One Eye Open, even though the Guardsmen and Tau can get as close as they like (well, within 1" anyway - being Allies of Convenience, they still follow some of the rules for enemy units).

Therefore, if your Knight is Come the Apocalypse to your Allied Detachment, they carry right on following the rules for Come the Apocalypse, regardless of either detachment's relationship to your Primary Detachment. And what are the rules for Come the Apocalypse? Well, they're a bit harsher than simply doing nothing 1/6 of the time if you're too close:



So... yeah. You can't do it. It cannot occur. I really don't see another way of interpreting it.


---


Not so much a counter-argument as an "um..." but I can't figure out why the newer special codexes don't have Ally Matrix entries for the older ones. What is the Inquisition's relationship to the Knights? How about the Legion of the Damned? Can I join an Inquisitor to a Damned squad? (Fluff says hell no, events always conspire to confound the Inquisitor's efforts to even get close, but, well, fluff and rules are like the sights on an ork's shoota: they don't always line up.) If my Knight is standing within 6" of my Henchmen, do they need to roll for One Eye Open? Can I even take more than one type of "special detachment"? And even if I can't, what about for when one of them is the primary detachment? If I wanted to represent the Legion showing up to bail out a Knight who got in over his head (primary Legion with a Knight detachment), what level of alliance is that? Why doesn't it say?

You make some fantastic points and these are some fantastic questions. Imma go e-mail GW and see if they can give me an answer or something.

[Mr Mystery]

As a background fanatic, I have this to say....

No background, no matter how compelling, should ever be restrictive of player choice.

If someone wants to run allies with their Nids? I'll play them. It could be a really good 'my Necrons infested them with mindshackle scarabs' or 'I really liked the Tyranid Mindslaves from Rogue Trader, and wanted to represent that on the table' or even 'I just wanted to field allies for once, k?'.... Doesn't matter. I for one will play you, and everyone else can shush!

[DrBored]

My email:

Hey GW,

So, I have this idea for an army, and before I put money down on models, I had a quick question...

So, my idea is something like this:

Primary Detachment: Imperial Guard
Allies: Chaos Daemons
+Inquisition
+Imperial Knights
+Legion of the Damned

The idea is to have a varied inquisition force, with the Daemons as Daemon Hosts!

The trouble is that the Imperial Knight can't ally with Chaos Daemons.. but the ally rules only specify that for the Primary Detachment, so would the above force be legal or illegal? If it's legal, do I treat the Chaos Daemons as 'Desperate Allies' and follow the rules for 'One Eye Open' with the Knight and Daemons, or not?

Also, would it be possible to attach an Inquisition Independent Character to a Legion of the Damned squad? Because they're Space Marines, would Inquisition and Legion of the Damned also be considered as Battle Brothers?

Thank you for your help on this. I really want to make this army a reality!

Their reply:


Thanks for writing in to us, although I don't have great news for you. That would be an illegal army, outside of games of Apocalypse; Chaos Daemons cannot be allied with Inquisition, Imperial Knights, or Legion of the Damned. Without the Daemon element, everything else could work.

[Eldar_Atog]

As a background fanatic, I have this to say....

No background, no matter how compelling, should ever be restrictive of player choice.

If someone wants to run allies with their Nids? I'll play them. It could be a really good 'my Necrons infested them with mindshackle scarabs' or 'I really liked the Tyranid Mindslaves from Rogue Trader, and wanted to represent that on the table' or even 'I just wanted to field allies for once, k?'.... Doesn't matter. I for one will play you, and everyone else can shush!

I would be cool with it too with one caveat... I would not play against a WAAC that wanted to do this type of thing. Life is just too short for that....

Need to take an aspirin now... That first army list gave me a nerd headache.

[Mr Mystery]

I'll play anyone at least once :)

Only way to find the good opponents!

[BeardMonk]

Im sorry, probably going to make myself seem very stupid here, however......

I admit im a WHF person and haven’t played 40K for years. But the whole system where people seem to be taking whatever the £$%& they want as part of their army as allies or detachments is one of the things that stops me from getting back into the game. The models are quite nice but the game seems to be broken (see a larger percentage of discussion on this board involving GW/WFB/40K)

I think I saw in a post a few months back the winning army at a tournament had Eldar with Dark Eldar as ALLIES!?! How is that even allowed to happen? They are meant to be mortal enemies! People in this thread talking about using Necrons or Nids or Deamons as allies to SM or IG? Again, in my mind, this completely breaks the lore and all sense. Can you guys not see this?

There needs to be restrictions on what can be played. I think the 40K FOG as it was works fine. Although moving to a percentage based set up like WFB would work as well. Allies and detachments need to be restricted to ones that make sense and alowed under the fluff or lore. Super heavy detachments, armoured detachments, Ultramarines can take allies like IG, Blood Angels etc. But Space Marines with a Necron monolith as a allied detachment is just wack.

When you select an army to play you should understand its strengths and weaknesses, accept them and build lists using that army that works for your play style while trying your best to make the most of that race/army. If people can just take whatever they want, what’s the point in even having army codexes, armies, races, sides etc? Just push all the rules into a massive pot and play pick an mix.

What am I missing here?

[Orange]

The lore. The lore allows a lot of the combos you mentioned to actually work. Nids and Guardsmen make sense from the perspective of a cult takeover. Blood Angels and Necrons work from the story, Daemons acting as Daemonhosts with Space Marines ie; Exorcists and Dark Eldar want to save the Craftworlds as much as the Eldar, they just gave in to some Chaos God but are not beyond the point of being stupid that they don't realize that allying with Eldar to ensure that some Orks or Chaos horde runs their fleeting empire into the ground.

Should Tau ally with Daemons? No because the lore doesn't make sense, but with Imperials or Eldar, sure it makes sense.

[Mr Mystery]

Tau should be able to ally with Daemons, on account the silly young Tau are completely naiive, and don't really 'get' Chaos.

When they first came out, there was a delightful bit of background wherein they jobbed the head of a Slaaneshi Cult, and thought that they had killed Slaanesh, assuming that to be the name of the cult leader.