Come Again! (Flying Monstrous Creature)

[ccjazz38]

I have yet another big talk unresolved issue for the fans of Tyranids and Chaos/Daemons this time! If a Flying Monstrous Creature flies off the table (meaning he is play in an earlier turn) he is placed in an "ongoing reserve"...meaning it auto comes back to the table next turn. Can you deep strike back onto the board (again in some cases) next turn?

[Nabterayl]

Indeed it does enter Ongoing Reserves. As page 49 says:


It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters Ongoing Reserve (see page 125).

As for whether an FMC that is capable of Deep Striking can Deep Strike out of Ongoing Reserve, I believe the answer is no. Page 125 goes on to say that


Units in Ongoing Reserve ... follow the normal rules for Reserves.
This leaves us with the perennial question of what the "normal rules for Reserves" are, which comes up every dozen threads or so. There are differing views on this question, but mine is that the "normal rules for Reserves" are that you walk on (or in this case, Swoop on) from your own table edge. Page 124 refers to both Deep Strike and Outflanking as "special rules," which indicates to me that they are not the normal rules for Reserves:


When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (maps and diagrams illustrating table edges for the different deployment methods are shown on page 119). Models that are arriving by Deep strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40). (italics mine)

[daboarder]

Indeed it does enter Ongoing Reserves. As page 49 says:



As for whether an FMC that is capable of Deep Striking can Deep Strike out of Ongoing Reserve, I believe the answer is no. Page 125 goes on to say that


This leaves us with the perennial question of what the "normal rules for Reserves" are, which comes up every dozen threads or so. There are differing views on this question, but mine is that the "normal rules for Reserves" are that you walk on (or in this case, Swoop on) from your own table edge. Page 124 refers to both Deep Strike and Outflanking as "special rules," which indicates to me that they are not the normal rules for Reserves:

you have to make the assumption that ongoing reserve units may elect to deepstrike, otherwise the mawloc doesnt work

[DarkLink]

No, you can't deepstrike. In fact, FMCs can't even deepstrike at all.

[daboarder]

No, you can't deepstrike. In fact, FMCs can't even deepstrike at all.

unless they have DS special rule.

but then how do you rationalise the mawloc?

[Nabterayl]

I don't have the current Tyranid codex. What are the relevant Mawloc rules you're thinking of, Tynskel? The BRB examples I found were either ambiguous or contained more specific clarifying language for the particular case.

[daboarder]

I don't have the current Tyranid codex. What are the relevant Mawloc rules you're thinking of, Tynskel? The BRB examples I found were either ambiguous or contained more specific clarifying language for the particular case.

Mawloc rule


When arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, a Mawloc can choose to
Deep Strike onto a point occupied by another model (friend or foe) – roll for scatter as
normal. If a Mawloc Deep Strikes onto a point occupied by another model, do not roll on the
Deep Strike Mishap table. Instead, place the large blast marker directly over the spot the
Mawloc is deep striking onto. All units except Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures beneath
the blast marker suffer a number of Strength 6 AP2 hits with the Ignores Cover special rule
equal to the number of models that unit has underneath the blast marker. If the blast marker
is on a multi-level ruin, only models on the lowest level of the ruin count as being under the
blast marker. For Wound allocation purposes, assume the attack is coming from the centre of
the blast marker. Hits against vehicles are resolved against their side armour.
If, after removing casualties, it is now possible to place the Mawloc on the table on the spot
where the blast marker landed, then do so, even if this is within 1" of another model (but not
if it would be in base contact with, or occupying the same space as, another model). If it is not
possible to place the Mawloc, replace the large blast marker on the spot and resolve another
round of damage as detailed above. If, after removing casualties for a second time, it is still
not possible to place the Mawloc, roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

[DarkLink]

The Edit function doesn't seem to work for google chrome, so I couldn't amend my last post about that.

[Nabterayl]

I can edit in Chrome just fine, DL. Weird.

Tynskel, that language doesn't clarify to me whether a Mawloc who goes into Ongoing Reserves due to the Deep Strike Mishap table then walks onto the board or Deep Strikes again. I can certainly see a fluff preference for the latter, and probably a tactical preference as well, but I don't see any language in the rule that compels that result.

[gregtheslacker]

Mawloc rule

What does the Mawloc rule have to do with ongoing reserve? It specifies "Deep Strike Reserve."

I'm not trying to be argumentative or a jerk, I'm just trying to understand something I'm clearly missing.

[ccjazz38]

Well poop, I guess there are no FMC that can deep strike. But the argument still stands....can ongoing reserve units deep strike. I would say yes because they enter reserve and enter play from reserve..what ever method they can use to get on the table.

Wait Wait! I knew i was not going crazy! There are some FMC that can deep strike...Chaos Daemons can...Fateweaver and Lord of Change that I know for sure!

[Nabterayl]

One of the Deep Strike Mishap tables is that the Deep Striking unit goes into "Ongoing Reserve." Thus, the Mawloc could end up going into Ongoing Reserve, since it can roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

What is not specified in the Deep Strike Mishap table is whether a unit that goes into Ongoing Reserve via a Deep Strike Mishap then Deep Strikes again the next turn, or simply walks on from its own table edge. I can see fluff justifications either way. For the reason I outlined in my initial post, I think the Ongoing Reserve rule points to walking on.

[daboarder]

One of the Deep Strike Mishap tables is that the Deep Striking unit goes into "Ongoing Reserve." Thus, the Mawloc could end up going into Ongoing Reserve, since it can roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

What is not specified in the Deep Strike Mishap table is whether a unit that goes into Ongoing Reserve via a Deep Strike Mishap then Deep Strikes again the next turn, or simply walks on from its own table edge. I can see fluff justifications either way. For the reason I outlined in my initial post, I think the Ongoing Reserve rule points to walking on.

which is a fair argument.

personally I feel that the only way to play the game logically is to allow deepstriking from ongoing reserves, otherwise aforementioned units are unable to work.

[dwez]

No, you can't deepstrike. In fact, FMCs can't even deepstrike at all.

You really had me panicking then. At first glance it would seem you are correct, nowhere does it explicitly state they have the Deep Strike special rule, however having feverishly checked it does state that in both gliding and swooping mode it behaves like a 'Jump Monstrous Creature' and it states specifically in the Jump Units rules that Jump Units 'share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type' in this case FMC's. Jump Units have the Deep Strike special rule, and therefore so do FMCs.

In fact the Rulebook FAQ [pg6] asks the question "Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? A: Yes" So even without the above confirmation there MUST be some FMCs that have the Deep Strike rule enough at least to require people to 'frequently ask' can they...
I really thought I'd been playing it wrong for years then.

[daboarder]

You really had me panicking then. At first glance it would seem you are correct, nowhere does it explicitly state they have the Deep Strike special rule, however having feverishly checked it does state that in both gliding and swooping mode it behaves like a 'Jump Monstrous Creature' and it states specifically in the Jump Units rules that Jump Units 'share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type' in this case FMC's. Jump Units have the Deep Strike special rule, and therefore so do FMCs.

In fact the Rulebook FAQ [pg6] asks the question "Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? A: Yes" So even without the above confirmation there MUST be some FMCs that have the Deep Strike rule enough at least to require people to 'frequently ask' can they...
I really thought I'd been playing it wrong for years then.

oh god, really?

sigh


no

you dont glide in reserves ergo you cannot deepstrike, that FAQ only addressees FMC that specifically have Deepstrike (none do)

[DarkLink]

FMC's "move, run, and assault as if they were Jump MCs". They do not gain the USRs that Jump MCs get, nor do they deploy or go into reserves as jump MCs. Deepstrike is not a move, run, or assault.

[gregtheslacker]

One of the Deep Strike Mishap tables is that the Deep Striking unit goes into "Ongoing Reserve." Thus, the Mawloc could end up going into Ongoing Reserve, since it can roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

What is not specified in the Deep Strike Mishap table is whether a unit that goes into Ongoing Reserve via a Deep Strike Mishap then Deep Strikes again the next turn, or simply walks on from its own table edge. I can see fluff justifications either way. For the reason I outlined in my initial post, I think the Ongoing Reserve rule points to walking on.

Thanks for the clarification. I play more fantasy than 40K, and rarely use units that deep strike when I do.

[Nabterayl]

which is a fair argument.

personally I feel that the only way to play the game logically is to allow deepstriking from ongoing reserves, otherwise aforementioned units are unable to work.
For the record, this is what I think the rule ought to be too, for precisely this reason. But obviously, what I think the rules say, what I think is fair, and how I personally prefer to play the game (opponent willing) are three different things.

[Gleipnir]

Deep Strike special rule wording could use better clarification for how it handles Ongoing Reserves, for example it first says a unit must start the game in reserve in order to use Deep Strike, which if a Mawloc for example was deployed on the board without using deep strike then choose to Burrow, would it therefore never have access to Deep Strike by the wording on the rule? I certainly don't think that was the intention. The rule goes on to say you must declare your unit is being placed in Deep Strike reserve when placing it in reserve, does this mean self same Mawloc that burrows and enters Ongoing reserve has to make clear to the opponent that its going be tunneling up rather than walking onto the board from the deployment zone(the telltale rumbling under the earth)

Basically it isn't clearly spelled out that Deep Strike is permitted from Ongoing Reserves but RAI sure seems to support it. As far as FMC and Deep Strike, I suggest house ruling the ability in and waiting for a FAQ, since I strongly believe they intend to allow it based on the previous FAQ, how other winged and burrowing Nids are treated and the narrative fluff.

- - - Updated - - -


You really had me panicking then. At first glance it would seem you are correct, nowhere does it explicitly state they have the Deep Strike special rule, however having feverishly checked it does state that in both gliding and swooping mode it behaves like a 'Jump Monstrous Creature' and it states specifically in the Jump Units rules that Jump Units 'share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type' in this case FMC's. Jump Units have the Deep Strike special rule, and therefore so do FMCs.

In fact the Rulebook FAQ [pg6] asks the question "Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? A: Yes" So even without the above confirmation there MUST be some FMCs that have the Deep Strike rule enough at least to require people to 'frequently ask' can they...
I really thought I'd been playing it wrong for years then.

Haven't been playing it wrong till they negated the previous 5th edition FAQ that gave Winged Tyranid FMC's Deep Strike, we are stuck in rule as written not permitting it till they re-address it for the new 6th edition codex. Something as simple as Adding the Deep Strike Special rule to the Wings Biomorph, and giving Harpies and Crones Deep Strike in their Special Rules.

[Nabterayl]

Basically it isn't clearly spelled out that Deep Strike is permitted from Ongoing Reserves but RAI sure seems to support it.
RAI-wise I'm not so sure. I could see them looking at the Deep Strike Mishap table like this:

1. You don't land at all and you never will, 'cause you're dead.
2-3. You land, but way the heck off course (because the opponent places you).
4-6. You land, but so far off course that you land off the board and have to walk on.

I don't know that that was the thinking, but it seems just as plausible to me as the other option.

[daboarder]

RAI-wise I'm not so sure. I could see them looking at the Deep Strike Mishap table like this:

1. You don't land at all and you never will, 'cause you're dead.
2-3. You land, but way the heck off course (because the opponent places you).
4-6. You land, but so far off course that you land off the board and have to walk on.

I don't know that that was the thinking, but it seems just as plausible to me as the other option.

If that was the case nab, then the Mawloc would only ever be able to terror from the deep once.

And given the presence of the burrow rule that would be kinda silly

[Asuryan]

RAI-wise I'm not so sure. I could see them looking at the Deep Strike Mishap table like this:

1. You don't land at all and you never will, 'cause you're dead.
2-3. You land, but way the heck off course (because the opponent places you).
4-6. You land, but so far off course that you land off the board and have to walk on.

I don't know that that was the thinking, but it seems just as plausible to me as the other option.

what about drop pods scattering off table? They would mishap, then if they went into ongoing reserves would the drop pod have to walk onto the table?

[Nabterayl]

And given the presence of the burrow rule that would be kinda silly
Fair enough. What's the Burrow rule?

[daboarder]

An unengaged Mawloc can, at any point during its Movement phases from the
second game turn onwards, elect to burrow. If it does so, remove it from the table and place it
into Ongoing Reserves. A Mawloc cannot Deep Strike and Burrow in the same turn.

here

[Nabterayl]

Ah, well, that is interesting indeed. That does indeed indicate to me that you can Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves.

That raises the question of under what circumstances you can do it. Are Mawlocs required to be held in Deep Strike reserve? If not, that would suggest to me that not only can a unit in Ongoing Reserve Deep Strike, it can choose which method of coming onto the table it will use (of the options normally available to it).

[ccjazz38]

In case some missed my update to my last comment...there are some FMC that can deep strike...Chaos Daemons can...Fateweaver and Lord of Change that I know for sure!

[daboarder]

Ah, well, that is interesting indeed. That does indeed indicate to me that you can Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves.

That raises the question of under what circumstances you can do it. Are Mawlocs required to be held in Deep Strike reserve? If not, that would suggest to me that not only can a unit in Ongoing Reserve Deep Strike, it can choose which method of coming onto the table it will use (of the options normally available to it).

Thats the logic most people take. And combo it with trygon tunnels in the endless swarm

due to the mawloc it seems the only interpretation that allows them to function.

[dwez]

oh god, really?
sigh
no
you dont glide in reserves ergo you cannot deepstrike, that FAQ only addressees FMC that specifically have Deepstrike (none do)

Forgive me if I've taken this wrong, but I'm not entirely sure why my interpretation is so completely incorrect, although I'll concede it may be so. But when it specifcally states
1. Jump Units - 'share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type' and
2. FMCs 'if a flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' which brings us back to rule 1 and Jump Units have Deep Strike.

This may be something you've discussed many times before, a quick search shows this cropping up as far back as 2012 in which case I apologise if it feels you're going over the same ground but it's totally new to me and something I've been employing tactically since day 1 of putting my Winged Tyrant together, without any complaints. I'm not entirely convinced of your point but DarkLink's explanation below seems to go some way to explain it without coming across as annoyed at my contribution. It moves like a Jump Unit but does not become one, but it does state they share two sets of rules so it's not that inconceivable for my misunderstanding.

Additionally, in my defence the recently removed Tyranid FAQ did state:

Q: Can Harpies and Hive Tyrants with the wings biomorph deepstrike?
A: Yes.

I appreciate this is no longer valid but that's only 2-3 months of this change being in effect. These sorts of changes are not always immediately obvious so if indeed the popular thinking is 'No they can't' then my only 'crime' is that I missed the one loophole allowing me to do it was withdrawn with the FAQ removal.


FMC's "move, run, and assault as if they were Jump MCs". They do not gain the USRs that Jump MCs get, nor do they deploy or go into reserves as jump MCs. Deepstrike is not a move, run, or assault.

Apologies if I misunderstood or have been too sensitive about this, it's a totally new one on me and typically it seems another set of rules that can be read a variety of ways depending on interpretation and with no FAQs to clarify the issue it doesn't help the debate.

[Nabterayl]

Forgive me if I've taken this wrong, but I'm not entirely sure why my interpretation is so completely incorrect, although I'll concede it may be so. But when it specifcally states
1. Jump Units - 'share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type' and
2. FMCs 'if a flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' which brings us back to rule 1 and Jump Units have Deep Strike.
The question is why you think that being deployed in Deep Strike reserve is something that jump units can do because of the way they move. The Movement section of the jump units rules doesn't mention anything like that. Instead, Deep Strike is listed among the special rules that jump units have. I see no reason why "moves exactly like a jump [unit]" should be read to mean "has exactly the same special rules as a jump [unit]."

[ccjazz38]

"I appreciate this is no longer valid but that's only 2-3 months of this change being in effect. These sorts of changes are not always immediately obvious so if indeed the popular thinking is 'No they can't' then my only 'crime' is that I missed the one loophole allowing me to do it was withdrawn with the FAQ removal."

Yeah the only reason that the change was made was because all things with wings were jump units also...that is no longer the case with the 6th ed flying rules (in the FMC section of main rule book). With the Nid codex update, FHTyrants now Fly when you add wings. By rule, a unit has to have Deep Strike in it's profile..which FHTyrants don't anymore. Daemon FMC do.

[John Bower]

what about drop pods scattering off table? They would mishap, then if they went into ongoing reserves would the drop pod have to walk onto the table?

Which kind of proves that 'reserves as normal' means using any and all means available to said unit. Otherwise if a Drop Pod mishaps off the table and goes into ongoing reserves it can no longer be used, as it is an 'immobilised 'vehicle in all respects. It can't come on from the players edge which some are saying is what GW mean by 'as normal' and therefore then can't come on at all. I'll remember that one if I see those same people doing so in a Baterep and call them out on it. Unless of course they are willing to admit that they could very well be wrong about what 'reserves as normal' means.

[Nabterayl]

Which kind of proves that 'reserves as normal' means using any and all means available to said unit. Otherwise if a Drop Pod mishaps off the table and goes into ongoing reserves it can no longer be used, as it is an 'immobilised 'vehicle in all respects. It can't come on from the players edge which some are saying is what GW mean by 'as normal' and therefore then can't come on at all. I'll remember that one if I see those same people doing so in a Baterep and call them out on it. Unless of course they are willing to admit that they could very well be wrong about what 'reserves as normal' means.
I think there's a good argument that drop pods in Ongoing Reserve would Deep Strike regardless, under page 125's rule:


Certain rare units are permanently immobile. If a unit like this cannot be deployed, or the player decides to keep it in reserve, it enters the game by Deep Strike. This represents the immobile unit being airdropped, teleported or otherwise deposited onto the battlefield.
Drop pod is permanently immobile (since its Immobilised result can't ever be repaired), it goes into Ongoin Reserve, which is a form of reserve, it enters by Deep Strike due to the exception above. Not airtight, but close enough that the drop pod example wasn't very persuasive to me.

But the Burrow rule is persuasive to me. If a Burrowed Mawloc couldn't Deep Strike, there would be no need to say "A Mawloc cannot Deep Strike and Burrow in the same turn." And most persuasive of all is the fact that the rule assumes that a Burrowed Mawloc (i.e., a Mawloc in Ongoing Reserves) can Deep Strike, rather than stating it explicitly as an exception to the normal Ongoing Reserves rule that needs to be carved out.

[dwez]

The question is why you think that being deployed in Deep Strike reserve is something that jump units can do because of the way they move. The Movement section of the jump units rules doesn't mention anything like that. Instead, Deep Strike is listed among the special rules that jump units have. I see no reason why "moves exactly like a jump [unit]" should be read to mean "has exactly the same special rules as a jump [unit]."

Because when I read it I didn't draw a distinction between 'how they move' and 'being' Jump Units. I understood it that to all intents and purposes they were Jump Units and all Jump Unit rules would therefore be applicable, I didn't assume their Special Rules would be an 'optional extra' in this case. But I see that's the defining element of everyone's take on this which is why I conceded I was incorrect.

Like I say I've been playing it this way all along and was shocked to think I'd got it wrong when in fact it's only been that way since the new Codex. I hastily tried to find something that explained how I had been doing it until now and clearly that haste overlooked the literal wording that explains the current rule implementation. It's remiss of me to be out-of-date so I'm probably best leaving the rules discussions to those with current knowledge.

[DarkLink]

Yet there is a distinction between "move as jump infantry" and "counts as jump infantry". Those two statements have fundamentally different meanings. Quite literally, move as means only that they move as jump infantry, with no other special connotations, while counts as means that they basically are jump infantry for most, if not all, purposes. There is zero reason to believe that "moves as" in and of itself also confers anything beyond moving as jump infantry, and since movement is not deep striking and deep striking is mentioned nowhere else in the FMC rules, there's no reason to believe that they inherently have deep strike.

[Demonus]

Arent the LotD another unit that "always arrives via deepstrike?"