Tyranid Spore Mines (p.65)

[ccjazz38]

Ok..I have a Biovore that shoots a spore mine..shot scatters and hits nothing...under large blast I place D3 mines per Biovore shooting...
Can the spore mines move 3" then charge or run after being Shot into play?
No where does it say I can't...unit did not deep strike, outflank, or disembark. Which are the only rules that prevent movements and charges once entered into the game.
So I should be able to fire...if I miss and scatter not so badly..still get them to move 3" and charge if close enough right?

[Sly]

First, you only get d3 Spore Mines per unit, not d3 per Biovore.

Second, you cannot move 3" because the Movement phase is over when you're already Shooting.

However, note that you can place them anywhere under the large blast, and they CAN assault in the Assault phase (and Run if they don't plan to Assault). As you say, they did not enter play via any of the rules that prevent them from Assaulting.

[ccjazz38]

oops..posted twice..see next post

[ccjazz38]

"However, note that you can place them anywhere under the large blast, and they CAN assault in the Assault phase (and Run if they don't plan to Assault). As you say, they did not enter play via any of the rules that prevent them from Assaulting."

Exactly what I was thinking...minus the moving..thanks..but...
Does it say somewhere that it is not per model, because One Biovore shoots with d3 mines when it burst...would not 2models = 2d3 and 3models=3d3?

[Anakzar]

"However, note that you can place them anywhere under the large blast, and they CAN assault in the Assault phase (and Run if they don't plan to Assault). As you say, they did not enter play via any of the rules that prevent them from Assaulting."

Exactly what I was thinking...minus the moving..thanks..but...
Does it say somewhere that it is not per model, because One Biovore shoots with d3 mines when it burst...would not 2models = 2d3 and 3models=3d3?

Stop stop! you are trying to use logic when interpreting GW rules...

Sadly its d3 per brood... they should have left it the same and done one per model as it was for 5th ed codex.

[ccjazz38]

"Sadly its d3 per brood"

It is not clearly stated, but I will go with that I guess. It won't be the first time GW put rules out and left the wording in the "Grey area" Thx All!

[ccjazz38]

Just spoke with GW (800-394-4263)! They told me (From the GW horses mouth themselves) that Each Template produces d3 Spore mines! So it is d3 per model in that unit. Please feel free and call yourself to see if they give you a different answer...it won't be the first time...lol

[Anakzar]

That's great! Man we sure need a FAQ for the 6th ed codex... seems like the other 6th ed codex's got theirs a lot faster.

[Dlatrex]

Sadly its d3 per brood...

I cannot speak for the paper-book, but I have the iBook, and it does not seem to reference brood anywhere:

pg. 147 Biovore

Weapons and biomorphs: Sporemine Launcher
Range 48" S4 AP4 Type Assault 1, Large Blast Spore Burst

Spore Burst:
"If when the final position of the first blast maker in the barrage is determined, there are no models (friends or foe) under it, place D3 Sporemine models anywhere under the blast maker so that they are in unit coherency and not within impassable terrain or 1" of the enemy (any that cannot be placed are lost). These act as a Spore Mine Cluster for the rest of the game. "

Again no reference to "brood". I guess an argument could be made that since there are 3 barrage weapons in a brood of three, that the shot is treated as "multiple barrage", and the text could suggest that ONLY the first blastmarker gets converted to a sporemine cluster. That said, I see nothing that would prevent the other subsequent barrage blasts from occurring.

[daboarder]

I cannot speak for the paper-book, but I have the iBook, and it does not seem to reference brood anywhere:

pg. 147 Biovore

Weapons and biomorphs: Sporemine Launcher
Range 48" S4 AP4 Type Assault 1, Large Blast Spore Burst

Spore Burst:
"If when the final position of the first blast maker in the barrage is determined, there are no models (friends or foe) under it, place D3 Sporemine models anywhere under the blast maker so that they are in unit coherency and not within impassable terrain or 1" of the enemy (any that cannot be placed are lost). These act as a Spore Mine Cluster for the rest of the game. "

Again no reference to "brood". I guess an argument could be made that since there are 3 barrage weapons in a brood of three, that the shot is treated as "multiple barrage", and the text could suggest that ONLY the first blastmarker gets converted to a sporemine cluster. That said, I see nothing that would prevent the other subsequent barrage blasts from occurring.

biovores fire as a multiple barrage, and only the first marker generates the spore mines, and it only generates D3. Therefore a biovore brood generates D3 spore mines if it is 1 model or 3

[Nabterayl]

I don't have a copy of the codex, but based on that wording, I agree with daboarder's reading.

[ccjazz38]

biovores fire as a multiple barrage, and only the first marker generates the spore mines, and it only generates D3. Therefore a biovore brood generates D3 spore mines if it is 1 model or 3

Again GW says that when you miss with the fist...you generate d3 spores...PER MODEL. Plus look at it this way, If you bring one model...it has the d3 stat...why would it only be 1d3 for more models shooting the same type weapon each? Also, besides deep striking spore mines...how else would you be able to reach the max ST10 for the mines damage? you can't unless you combine the brood per model.

[daboarder]

THEY DO NOT SAY THAT


If, when the final position of the first blast marker in the barrage is determined, there are no
models (friend or foe) under it, place D3 Spore Mine models anywhere under the blast
marker so that they are in unit coherency and not within impassable terrain or 1” of an
enemy model (any that cannot be placed are lost). These act as a Spore Mine Cluster for the
rest of the game

IS THE EXACT WORDING.

could you please highlight the words, per model, or the words for each, or anything, all I see is a reference to the FIRST. Which tells you that the SECOND and THIRD dont do jack

and furthermore, you might want to count,. the maximum Spore mine strength is 9

4 + 5 additional mines for 9. jesus christ

[John Bower]

THEY DO NOT SAY THAT



IS THE EXACT WORDING.

could you please highlight the words, per model, or the words for each, or anything, all I see is a reference to the FIRST. Which tells you that the SECOND and THIRD dont do jack

and furthermore, you might want to count,. the maximum Spore mine strength is 9

4 + 5 additional mines for 9. jesus christ

Which would in fact suggest that maybe that should have been 1d3 per firing model... Otherwise there was no point saying 'up to a maximum of 10' in the description.

[daboarder]

which would be a point, if the spore burst rule mentioned anything about D3 per blast, or D3 each blast or anything like that, but it doesn't, all it mentions in that D3 are generated.

[John Bower]

Which is why it needs an FAQ badly, the basic rules are for multiple units using Spore mines. One of which fires it from the sky, the other from a unit that could be up to 3 models, I've stopped using 3 Biovores in a brood for that reason, what's the point until/unless this gets FAQ'd? It makes no difference at all in a game if you fire 1 or 3, they're more likely to miss than not anyway so you still only get D3 mines, which then charge at S6 ignores cover. Good for taking out guardsmen and their commanders or Eldar due to the AP of them and double Toughness on those types. But no point at all taking 2 or 3 biovores since if the first marker misses you get a grand total of D3 whether it's one dude or 3 firing them.

[dwez]

One thing to remember when firing three Biovores that miss, most other large blast weapons do not then provide any option to continue on and blow up the intended target so 1D3 Spore Mines is a bonus whichever way you look at it. Sure, if you get 1 on the D3 you might feel hard done by but if you'd hit you'd have had a triple multiple large blast. One shouldn't be taking these weapon beasts on the intent to miss, despite the odds being in that favour.

The Spore Mine rules are incredibly vague, considering they dedicated half a page to them. they don't answer half the questions, of which the previous Codex was very clear about:

What happens when they're shot - do they explode? Nothing is mentioned so you would presume not
What happens when they are overwatched against - do they explode? Nothing is mentioned so you would presume not
but if they do,when do they explode - start or end point?
What happens when someone moves within 1" - do they explode? Nothing is mentioned so you would presume not
Can Spore Mine Clusters created by Biovores that charge and explode that turn - I read it as they can and most folk seeem to think that way but again it does not explicitly state such except for "These act as a Spore Mine Cluster for the remainder of the game" which implies that you can
Are Spore Mines technically in 'assault' - they probably are but the pedant in me says it specifically states - "Spore Mines do not attack in close combat. Instead at the the Initiative 10 step, the entire cluster detonates!" Pure semantics I think, but it's in black and white so you could try arguing that one, if you didn't want to have any friends!

15pts for a Cluster is buttons and always handy when you have a few points left but I'm struggling to justify even this spend on them when they're just shot at on arrival, sure most things that Deep Strike are but these are T1! Or if they do survive they're overwatched before they can even fulfill their primary purpose. Therefore their only purpose is that someone HAS to commit something to shoot them instead of shooting something else, but that's one unit and only one turn of shooting...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nvZJfx0r1Vc/UySQQb0wKQI/AAAAAAAAQzk/ESZsa-vwzPI/s640/C360_2014-03-15-15-20-17-553.jpg

[Nabterayl]

Which would in fact suggest that maybe that should have been 1d3 per firing model... Otherwise there was no point saying 'up to a maximum of 10' in the description.
Can you quote that please? Not all of us have access to the codex, and so far nobody has cited the "up to a maximum of 10" that you are alluding to in a way that helps the rest of us make sense of it. You're allowed to quote a copyrighted work for purposes of criticism or discussion thereof.

[ccjazz38]

Someone asked earlier about spore mines blowing up. The only time that happens in when they charge...no more shooting them or being near them while shooting to blow up.

Also for a different earlier comment...4+5 is 9 ..but if you look at the profile of the weapon being fired..that weapon is for one model..you add 1 or 2 more then the effects happens 2 or 3 times over (aka the d3 if you miss with 3 models in the unit). GW confused everyone with the wording talking about "if first template misses bla bla bla..." but again...I called and asked..they told me d3 per model.

Please someone else call and hit us back on this forum to confirm if they tell you the same thing (d3 per model) or the other (d3 for the unit..no matter how many in the unit.)

[dwez]

Can you quote that please? Not all of us have access to the codex, and so far nobody has cited the "up to a maximum of 10" that you are alluding to in a way that helps the rest of us make sense of it. You're allowed to quote a copyrighted work for purposes of criticism or discussion thereof.

"The strength of these hits is equal to 4, but is increased by 1 for each additional Spore Mine in the detonating cluster (to a maximum of Strength 10)."

[daboarder]

"The strength of these hits is equal to 4, but is increased by 1 for each additional Spore Mine in the detonating cluster (to a maximum of Strength 10)."

and that has no bearing on anything, its the standard limitation text.

[ccjazz38]

So no one has spoken to GW yet besides me? I want someone to call and let all of us here know if you got the same answer (d3 per model) or a different answer (d3 per unit).

[daboarder]

So no one has spoken to GW yet besides me? I want someone to call and let all of us here know if you got the same answer (d3 per model) or a different answer (d3 per unit).

you can call all you like, you ALWAYS get different answers. Thats why no one bothers

[Dave Mcturk]

you can call all you like, you ALWAYS get different answers. Thats why no one bothers

love it.

to be generous to the poor tyranid player actually using spore mines; we have been giving d3 per shooting model.

BUT my follow on question is : WHY cant you shoot at a spore mine cluster ? it has a stat line and is therefore a target for shooting in shooting phase ? it also has to 'assault' to detonate [?] [not got codex to hand so not sure exactly hows its worded!] ... which presumably means that overwatch fire is also permitted ??

so they are really only any good against vehicles with no overwatch ? or against other non-shooting enemy units [say genestealers?][:rolleyes:]

[daboarder]

love it.

to be generous to the poor tyranid player actually using spore mines; we have been giving d3 per shooting model.

BUT my follow on question is : WHY cant you shoot at a spore mine cluster ? it has a stat line and is therefore a target for shooting in shooting phase ? it also has to 'assault' to detonate [?] [not got codex to hand so not sure exactly hows its worded!] ... which presumably means that overwatch fire is also permitted ??

so they are really only any good against vehicles with no overwatch ? or against other non-shooting enemy units [say genestealers?][:rolleyes:]

Spore mines, particularly biovore left overs are AWESOME, not the least because they eat overwatch and threaten vehicles.

[Gleipnir]

Simple easy answer for this one is to use GW's propensity for unclear rule writing in your favor with another Biovore example and a Living Artillery Node where they require you to take an Exocrine, 3 Biovores and A Warrior Brood with a Biocannon, note that they don't specify Biovore Brood but say Biovore so you could always consider each Biovore model its own Brood thus generating a potential 1d3 spore mines each, all without filling up your Heavy Support FOC slots.

Problem with GW stores and customer service and rules questions is you more often get multiple answers than not, hence the importance of a decent FAQ or Errata release rate, personally think GW should take advantage of the new White Dwarf format to include a simple Ask the Editors section to answer a lot of them with more regularity.

[daboarder]

Thats been updated its a brood of 3 biovores now

[ccjazz38]

One more comment and I will leave it up to GW to update a FAQ. Think of this (and besides the fact GW told me that the spores are D3 per model).... I have one biovore that shoots a spore that has burst ability (D3). Now you add 1 or 2 more mines...each shooting a spore with burst ability and I only get D3? Think about this again...I shoot 3 spores only getting D3? If I shoot one I get D3. So what is the point of bringing more to a unit, besides hoping that you hit, to add more blast templates....and if the second (or 3rd) template flips...most things you hit will miss because the template is too big when you flip.

What I am trying to get you to understand is this...each model shoots a spore that has the burst ability. In a unit of 3 that is 3 mines shooting..so I should get D3 per mine (aka each biovore). Trying to tell me if I'm shoot 3 mines...I may get less mines out on the table than what I shot? It makes no sense.

Now, what would have made sense with the D3 per unit (that people are thinking is the way it reads), is if it had said "place a spore mine per model in unit... then add D3"...but it does not say that.

[Asuryan]

Which would in fact suggest that maybe that should have been 1d3 per firing model... Otherwise there was no point saying 'up to a maximum of 10' in the description.

It's the same with vibro cannons in Eldar, They start out at St 7 ap 4 and get +1 st and -1 ap for every hit after the first and the rule says you cannot exceed st 10 or go below ap 1 but since they are heavy 1, and a maximum of 3 artillery models, and independent characters can't fire the artillery you only can get a maximum of st 9 ap 2.

[daboarder]

One more comment and I will leave it up to GW to update a FAQ. Think of this (and besides the fact GW told me that the spores are D3 per model).... I have one biovore that shoots a spore that has burst ability (D3). Now you add 1 or 2 more mines...each shooting a spore with burst ability and I only get D3? Think about this again...I shoot 3 spores only getting D3? If I shoot one I get D3. So what is the point of bringing more to a unit, besides hoping that you hit, to add more blast templates....and if the second (or 3rd) template flips...most things you hit will miss because the template is too big when you flip.

What I am trying to get you to understand is this...each model shoots a spore that has the burst ability. In a unit of 3 that is 3 mines shooting..so I should get D3 per mine (aka each biovore). Trying to tell me if I'm shoot 3 mines...I may get less mines out on the table than what I shot? It makes no sense.

Now, what would have made sense with the D3 per unit (that people are thinking is the way it reads), is if it had said "place a spore mine per model in unit... then add D3"...but it does not say that.

And GW told me its one D3 regardless of the number of Biovores.

Look if your going to throw your toys out of the sand pit do us all a favour and dont ask the question next time.

[maph3rs]

Easiest way to look at this...how many times does FIRST happen?
First blast marker in the barrage. Doesn't say second or third...first.
It would make sense for the other 2 to create spores but hey logic and GW makes no sense!

[ccjazz38]

And GW told me its one D3 regardless of the number of Biovores.

Look if your going to throw your toys out of the sand pit do us all a favour and dont ask the question next time.

What are you talking about? Sand pit and GW told you? You told me you would never call...did you? Or are you just being a smart ace? The question was to find out how this weapons is suppose to work so I/we can play it right.....you think you know the answer with no one backing you up...So you don't need to act like a rats tail, and try to help everyone figure this thing out.

[Gleipnir]

What are you talking about? Sand pit and GW told you? You told me you would never call...did you? Or are you just being a smart ace? The question was to find out how this weapons is suppose to work so I/we can play it right.....you think you know the answer with no one backing you up...So you don't need to act like a rats tail, and try to help everyone figure this thing out.

What a biovore shooting spores should do or what you were told by customers service, a store manager or even your best friends, friend who knows a guy sadly is at best just RAI or something you can choose to house rule.

The rule as it is written and thus the rules legal way of playing it is only the first Blast template generates D3 spores. Up until the rule is addressesed in a digital or printable format such as a FAQ otherwise that's pretty much where it is.

No harm in house ruling things to be worded the way you want, long as who you are playing with is agreeable to it.