Imperial Knights Detachment and allies taken by the primary detachment conumdrum

[Daemonette666]

Now I know that the new Imperial Knights Codex has a new allies matrix addition where they can not ally with an army that belongs to the Chaos Powers - treated as Come the Apocalypse.

But if you ally them with a Guard army force, in this case Traitor Guard using the Imperial Guard Codex, and the Guard ally themselves with Chaos Marines that are kept on the other side of the table (House Drakon, or House Devine survivors), then there should be no problems.

I know that it might seem like juggling the rules around just to get Imperial Knights into a Heretic Chaos Army, but the book does mention they are out there.

My friends have agreed to let me use them in our games as House Drakon traitors. It should not be a problem for me as I do not attend many 40K tournaments.

I just hope GW make a special updated Chaos Knight miniature (with Chaos Symbols on it), EBook Codex, or release something like Hell Knights, and other Fallen Slaanesh Knight Titans to allow heretics and anti-Imperial generals like myself to field something other than the expensive 888 point Super heavy tank with a Chaos warrior on the front, that is not worth the points it costs.

I am not saying the Imperial Knight is worth its points. I have killed one myself with Abaddon in close combat, as well as a Wraith Knight in another game with him. I have also seen a Wraith Knight take out an imperial Knight.

I have been using an Imperial Armour Storm Eagle to transport him and his squad, then deploy him into close combat after I disembark from the assault ramps.

I know there are a few rule sticklers out there who will not let another player use Imperial Knights with Chaos Marines that are allied to Imperial Guard (traitor), but most would be willing to allow them to be used if painted as House Devine or Drakon.

Are the rules set so strict that you can not do this in an army, or is there some loophole, are the rules easily misinterpreted or is there something you can argue your point with to be able to use Guard - primary detachment, Imperial Knights, and an allied detachment of Chaos Marines?

It might seem like I am grasping at straws, but I am trying to build a themed army list with recently fallen Imperial Guard, the Chaos forces coming to help them resist the yoke of the Imperium - they being the Chaos Marines who are backed up by fallen Imperial Knights - House Drakon.

[Pendragon38]

Pg.61 3rd paragraph down.
Short version
****( note that knights my have a different relationship to the models from the primary detachment to the allied detachment {example a knight is allied to guard as a primary and have tau as a alley, the knights would treat the guard as battle brothers and the tau as desperate allies.)****
But if your gaming group says it's ok as a house rule then that's cool too.

[daboarder]

Pg.61 3rd paragraph down.
Short version
****( note that knights my have a different relationship to the models from the primary detachment to the allied detachment {example a knight is allied to guard as a primary and have tau as a alley, the knights would treat the guard as battle brothers and the tau as desperate allies.)****
But if your gaming group says it's ok as a house rule then that's cool too.

you do realise that doesn't solve anything.

so they treat the CSM as "come the apocalypse"

Whoopdy ****ing dooo! they are allied to the guard.

its pretty much teh worst worded rule GW has written, and THAT is saying something

[ToHitMod]

Now I know that the new Imperial Knights Codex has a new allies matrix addition where they can not ally with an army that belongs to the Chaos Powers - treated as Come the Apocalypse.

But if you ally them with a Guard army force, in this case Traitor Guard using the Imperial Guard Codex, and the Guard ally themselves with Chaos Marines that are kept on the other side of the table (House Drakon, or House Devine survivors), then there should be no problems.

I know that it might seem like juggling the rules around just to get Imperial Knights into a Heretic Chaos Army, but the book does mention they are out there.

My friends have agreed to let me use them in our games as House Drakon traitors. It should not be a problem for me as I do not attend many 40K tournaments.

I just hope GW make a special updated Chaos Knight miniature (with Chaos Symbols on it), EBook Codex, or release something like Hell Knights, and other Fallen Slaanesh Knight Titans to allow heretics and anti-Imperial generals like myself to field something other than the expensive 888 point Super heavy tank with a Chaos warrior on the front, that is not worth the points it costs.

I am not saying the Imperial Knight is worth its points. I have killed one myself with Abaddon in close combat, as well as a Wraith Knight in another game with him. I have also seen a Wraith Knight take out an imperial Knight.

I have been using an Imperial Armour Storm Eagle to transport him and his squad, then deploy him into close combat after I disembark from the assault ramps.

I know there are a few rule sticklers out there who will not let another player use Imperial Knights with Chaos Marines that are allied to Imperial Guard (traitor), but most would be willing to allow them to be used if painted as House Devine or Drakon.

Are the rules set so strict that you can not do this in an army, or is there some loophole, are the rules easily misinterpreted or is there something you can argue your point with to be able to use Guard - primary detachment, Imperial Knights, and an allied detachment of Chaos Marines?

It might seem like I am grasping at straws, but I am trying to build a themed army list with recently fallen Imperial Guard, the Chaos forces coming to help them resist the yoke of the Imperium - they being the Chaos Marines who are backed up by fallen Imperial Knights - House Drakon.

The rules are as strict as you and your opponent want them to be, I'd have no worries about you using it and having them work together and most reasonable people wouldn't either, you're doing it for the right reasons, you want to use your cool model with the rest of your cool army.

[zenjah]

you do realise that doesn't solve anything.

so they treat the CSM as "come the apocalypse"

Whoopdy ****ing dooo! they are allied to the guard.

its pretty much teh worst worded rule GW has written, and THAT is saying something

I am surprised you are still arguing that two detachments that are rated as "Come the Apocalypse" can be in the same army. If multiple detachments are in an army, they are all allied with one another. Of course they are allied if they are in the same army. Each of the multiple detachments has a "different relationship" to each of the others. If one of those relationships is "this cannot happen" then it cannot happen.

You can't have two factions in the same army and claim that those two factions are not allied. They are. They have different relationships.

[Gleipnir]

And yet with all the new mini-dexes we have a number of supplemental armies and mini dex armies that have no relationship to one another listed at all, neither permitting nor expressly forbidding, Imperial Knights and Inquisition for example.

Problem is up until recently we only ever had to deal with army relationships between 2 armies, with these new plus one detachment mini dexes and formations you have a new wrinkle that just doesn't really work out with existing BRB allies matrix

[zenjah]

That does seem to muddy the waters on how to treat Armies with more than 2 detachments.

But while Knights + Inquisition is ambiguous for that reason, I don't think that IG + Chaos + Knights is ambiguous at all.

Come the Apocalypse -- "this kind of alliance cannot occur" is pretty clear.

No matter how many detachments you have in an army they each have some sort of relationship to each other. It is nonsense to claim that 2 of the detachments in a single army are "not allied." When the relationship between two factions in the same army spells out clearly that it "cannot occur," that is pretty clear.

[daboarder]

of course you don't,

But that reads more like you just expect armies to have double standards.

there is no relationship between INQ and Knights, by your logic then they cannot be in the same army either

to the OP:

What all this should tell you is that no body really knows, its a mess. ask TO's and go with what your regular mates say

[Lord-Boofhead]

you do realise that doesn't solve anything.

so they treat the CSM as "come the apocalypse"

Whoopdy ****ing dooo! they are allied to the guard.

its pretty much teh worst worded rule GW has written, and THAT is saying something

I've been having this same argument with an idiot on FB. there is nothing Banning it so its ok.

[Lord-Boofhead]

You can't have two factions in the same army and claim that those two factions are not allied. They are. They have different relationships.

Nope, they share a COMON Ally but they aren't allied with each other.

[Tynskel]

of course you don't,

But that reads more like you just expect armies to have double standards.

there is no relationship between INQ and Knights, by your logic then they cannot be in the same army either

to the OP:

What all this should tell you is that no body really knows, its a mess. ask TO's and go with what your regular mates say

its not a mess. It is 2nd Edition. ANYTHING GOES!

[Tynskel]

Go double posting!!!


of course you don't,

But that reads more like you just expect armies to have double standards.

there is no relationship between INQ and Knights, by your logic then they cannot be in the same army either

to the OP:

What all this should tell you is that no body really knows, its a mess. ask TO's and go with what your regular mates say

its not a mess. It is 2nd Edition. ANYTHING GOES!

[John Bower]

That does seem to muddy the waters on how to treat Armies with more than 2 detachments.

But while Knights + Inquisition is ambiguous for that reason, I don't think that IG + Chaos + Knights is ambiguous at all.

Come the Apocalypse -- "this kind of alliance cannot occur" is pretty clear.

No matter how many detachments you have in an army they each have some sort of relationship to each other. It is nonsense to claim that 2 of the detachments in a single army are "not allied." When the relationship between two factions in the same army spells out clearly that it "cannot occur," that is pretty clear.

But then when you read Apocalypse... It CAN occur. Hell in Apoc even nids can ally with anyone. I don't have a problem with any allies, I think people take the allies rules far to strictly, even in the BRB GW state that you can still use Come the Apocalypse allies with your opponent's agreement, just come up with a suitable reason for the alliance. I think Traitor Knights is more than just a 'suitable' reason for it, it's downright narrative.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I just hope GW make a special updated Chaos Knight miniature (with Chaos Symbols on it), EBook Codex, or release something like Hell Knights, and other Fallen Slaanesh Knight Titans to allow heretics and anti-Imperial generals like myself to field something other than the expensive 888 point Super heavy tank with a Chaos warrior on the front, that is not worth the points it costs.

Funnily enough, notice that anything Imperial isn't actually sculpted onto the model. :p

[Tynskel]

Funnily enough, notice that anything Imperial isn't actually sculpted onto the model. :p

Because Knights are not Knights of the Imperium.

[John Bower]

Because Knights are not Knights of the Imperium.

Erm, technicalleeee they are. Imperial Knights, it's in the title.... :p