Imperial Knights Strikedown

[Chad Thornton]

Now that people have started playing games with the Imperial Knights I am curious how people are handling its Strikedown ability. RAW its on the model, not a specific weapon so it should apply to everything but I want to know if people are just applying it to its melee attacks?

[George Labour]

Unless I missed something while looking this up for Riptides and othe Monstrous creatures. Model special rules do not transfer to weapons, just as weapon special rules do not transfer to models.

IE, if a model has a gun that has poisoned the model itself does not gain poisoned, nor do the models other weapons acquire that ability. If a gun has melta then a model does not have melta, nor do other weapons the model may use gain Melta.

As such None of the Knights shooting attacks gain strikedown as it is not in their profiles.

[Nabterayl]

You know, I was initially in favor of Strikedown applying to all weapons, but George does have a point. If he's correct, then a Knight's Strikedown rule applies only to its Stomp attacks, which is the only attack it can make without using a weapon. I must admit that, intuitively, that strikes me as a not-crazy result.

I was going to use Rending and Sniper as a counter-example, but I think they actually support George's contention, since they specifically say things like:


If a model has the Rending special rule, or is attacking with a Melee weapon that has the Rending special rule ...
and


If a weapon has the Sniper special rule, or is fired by a model with the Sniper special rule ...
I think I am going to have to reverse my earlier decision, in favor of Strikedown applying to Stomp attacks only.

... unless Stomp attacks already have Strikedown? I don't have any relevant codices handy, unfortunately, so I can't check.

[Tynskel]

hmmmm...

to me, it seems that models can have shooting USRs and melee USRs. Rending is exactly how it sounds, rending down something in melee. The same with sniper—shooting.

I would imagine that strikedown follows CC USRs, unless specifically applied to a gun.

[George Labour]

I'd say it applies to Hammer of Warth, its melee weapons, and stomps as those are all listead as attacks made by the model.

HOWEVER. I'm iffy on the stomp as I think it may not be an actual attack in the same way as the other two. So I reserve my right to change my mind on that later.

[Tyrendian]

if a model has a gun that has poisoned the model itself does not gain poisoned, nor do the models other weapons acquire that ability. If a gun has melta then a model does not have melta, nor do other weapons the model may use gain Melta.


not really to the point, since those are examples where a rule doesn't transfer from one weapon to another - that is obvious... can't really think of another example where a special rule possessed by a model and not its weapons would affect said weapons; usually stuff like that is worded as "all/some of its weapons gain X", just not in this case... dey dun goofed

€: aaaand way too late... feel free to ignore :)

€²:

to me, it seems that models can have shooting USRs and melee USRs. Rending is exactly how it sounds, rending down something in melee. The same with sniper—shooting.

since when is Rending in any way associated with melee? Assault Cannons can be used as clubs, yes, but that's not where they Rend... :) and I can't think of an example where a MODEL would have Rending - at most "it's melee Attacks gain Rending", which is still very clear - but nothing like the case of the Knights...

Not that I'd advocate for their guns to have Strikedown, mind you - I just think that RAW that seems to be the case... dey dun goofed as I said before :)

[George Labour]

At the moment there is no ranged weapon that has strikedown. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

SO I supppose GW thought we'd be wise enough to notice that and didn't add in a distinction where one didn't actually exist. Pity they didn't make a paragraph at the beginning of the chapter stating when/if special rules transfer back and forth between model and weapons.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

At the moment there is no ranged weapon that has strikedown. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.Well, the Telekinesis shooting power, Assail, has Strikedown. Although I'd agree that it likely wasn't the writer's intention that Strikedown influence shooting attacks - while it would make sense for a Knight's cannon to knock things over, having the Heavy Stubbers have Strikedown while stuff like, say, Autocannons does not would be kinda silly.

[Gleipnir]

As a rule Strikedown would only apply to an imperial Knight that opts to make base statistic attacks meaning using its attack profile and strength STR 10 and 3 attacks(basically almost any model that can assault can use its fists or kick or headbutt on in general flail about hitting things weapon or not, think Titans with 2 range Cannon Arms and no obvious melee weapons), it needs a FAQ to make clear if all weapon profiles receive model rules(I would be inclined to say no they don't since you are not using the base form of attack), that are not included as a part of their weapon profile, but in the past you would not per the rules made clear in the BRB FAQ and other codex FAQs have applied it to other special forms of attacks like Vector Strike, Sweep, Stomp and Hammer of Wrath which have their own special rules for resolving damage and effects, additional special rules are not combined with them or applied to them.

RAW nothing says don't apply model special rules to the weapon profiles for melee or shooting attacks(That I could find, though if George can cite his earlier source that said Monstrous Creatures with Special Rules cannot use them with Weapon Profiles that may solve that), but many examples in the FAQ where it would never be applied to other special forms of attacks, Sweep, Vector Strike, Hammer of Wrath etc.

[Gleipnir]

Was gonna say missiles have Strikedown too but now I think that was Concussive they have.

[Nabterayl]

As a rule Strikedown would only apply to an imperial Knight that opts to make base statistic attacks meaning using its attack profile and strength STR 10 and 3 attacks(basically almost any model that can assault can use its fists or kick or headbutt on in general flail about hitting things weapon or not, think Titans with 2 range Cannon Arms and no obvious melee weapons)
That's not true. You cannot attack with your statline. You must strike with a Melee weapon. A titan with two ranged weapons and no obvious melee weapons is armed with a close combat weapon, per page 51:


No Specified Melee Weapon
If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.
Obviously knights are specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, and thus do not have a regular close combat weapon. As a result, they must make close combat attacks with their swords, which do not have the Strikedown rule.

[Gleipnir]

Agree Nab RAW I didn't see anything that would eliminate it from being used for all melee "and shooting attacks" the fact that it would be applied to shooting attacks is why I expect it will be FAQ/errata'd at some point, but FAQs make abundant mentions that additional special rules are not used for extra attack forms such as Sweep, Tail Attacks, Hammer of Wrath or Vector Strike (its not a huge stretch to add Stomp to that list as an additional added attack/alternate attack method that is resolved without additional special rules)

[Gleipnir]

That's not true. You cannot attack with your statline. You must strike with a Melee weapon. A titan with two ranged weapons and no obvious melee weapons is armed with a close combat weapon, per page 51:


Obviously knights are specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, and thus do not have a regular close combat weapon. As a result, they must make close combat attacks with their swords, which do not have the Strikedown rule.

Thanks, I had always been playing that as you have the option of using your base statline for attacks not that I found many reasons I'd want to outside of challenges where a Unit was using an Unwieldy Weapon instead of "you must use a Melee weapon profile if you have one" I had always considered it as a default instead of exception.

[Thiazi]

Thanks guys. Me and my locals agreed that it should only be cc attacks. Based on the fact that no other stubber/battle cannons in the game have strike down. I just wanted see how others were playing it.

[George Labour]

On further pondering, and some reading, I've decided to alter my opinion slightly. For Knights, other super heavy walkers, and Monstrous creatures they only get Strikedown when doing Hammer of Wrath attacks. Might get it on melee unless they're using a weapon that replaces they're using one with its own profile (suach as the Knight's reaper chainsword).

As for stomp...still not sure as it says it IS an attack, and it does not use a separate weapon. However it is not an attack in the traditional sense. I want to say yes it does, but again do not quote me on that.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

On further pondering, and some reading, I've decided to alter my opinion slightly. For Knights, other super heavy walkers, and Monstrous creatures they only get Strikedown when doing Hammer of Wrath attacks. Might get it on melee unless they're using a weapon that replaces they're using one with its own profile (suach as the Knight's reaper chainsword).Huh, yeah, I think this is the accurate interpretation.

[Charon]

RAW is all weapons he wields, except attacks which specifically disallow it.
Model rules overwrite weapon rules (except mentioned otherwise) as seen in Daemonprince (AP2 attacks) with black mace (AP4 weapon). If the daemonprince attacks with the black mace it still has all its special rules but gets AP2 from the prince.

[Gleipnir]

On further pondering, and some reading, I've decided to alter my opinion slightly. For Knights, other super heavy walkers, and Monstrous creatures they only get Strikedown when doing Hammer of Wrath attacks. Might get it on melee unless they're using a weapon that replaces they're using one with its own profile (suach as the Knight's reaper chainsword).

As for stomp...still not sure as it says it IS an attack, and it does not use a separate weapon. However it is not an attack in the traditional sense. I want to say yes it does, but again do not quote me on that.

Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do these attacks benefit from any special rules, or any weapons or other wargear it is equipped with?

A: No.

That's a pretty clear answer for that one. pg 5 of the basic rules FAQ

[George Labour]

RAW is all weapons he wields, except attacks which specifically disallow it.
Model rules overwrite weapon rules (except mentioned otherwise) as seen in Daemonprince (AP2 attacks) with black mace (AP4 weapon). If the daemonprince attacks with the black mace it still has all its special rules but gets AP2 from the prince.

Page 42 and 48 seem to not say that. You get ap2 from smash which specifically says it overrides partbof a weapon's profile. All monstrous creatures get smash.

nothing is written about USRs mixing without the wording stating that they do.

[George Labour]

Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do these attacks benefit from any special rules, or any weapons or other wargear it is equipped with?

A: No.

That's a pretty clear answer for that one. pg 5 of the basic rules FAQ

thats that then. That means the a knight will only ever get strikdown if we get a version without a statted weapon. Edit: or a weapon with strikedown in its profile.

Which seems weird but keeping in line with the way things are written.

[Gleipnir]

thats that then. That means the a knight will only ever get strikdown if we get a version without a statted weapon. Edit: or a weapon with strikedown in its profile.

Which seems weird but keeping in line with the way things are written.

Where did you find a rule restricting its use with weapon profiles, melee or shooting?

[George Labour]

Can you find me a rule that says you do?

Or can you provide an answer from the FAQ saying that a model's USRs and or special abilities apply to its wargear even when there is no language stating that they do so.

edit: page 51 under multiple melee weapons states you can not mix and match the abilities of weapons. But im assuming you'll only accept a rule that is far more all inclusive or at least defines what the book means by an attack.

EDIT 2:Basically the issue we all seem to be running into is the use of the term attack. However as the FAW response for Hammer of Wrath shows that simply because something is described as an attack it does not make it a model's attack. When combined with the fact that strikedown is the only USR worded without specific qualifiers for when it applies, we get a mess.

Hence why I'm approaching it from as literal a standpoint as possible. In this case if is not on the weapon in use, and the USR does not say it's used when making an attack with a ranged and or melee weapon, then it applies only when the model uses it own A value to fight without making use of other equipment.

Also my intiial reply comes off as snarky and was typed way to fast on my phone. However I think it's a question worth asking because I've already had someone provide me a reference to change my mind about earlier comments. Therefore I've left it as originally written but apologize for its tone.

I'm also wondering why this situation has not come up before as all Monstrous creatures have strikedown and many of them mount ranged weapons as well.

[Gleipnir]

Can you find me a rule that says you do?

Or can you provide an answer from the FAQ saying that a model's USRs and or special abilities apply to its wargear even when there is no language stating that they do so.

edit: page 51 under multiple melee weapons states you can not mix and match the abilities of weapons. But im assuming you'll only accept a rule that is far more all inclusive or at least defines what the book means by an attack.

EDIT 2:Basically the issue we all seem to be running into is the use of the term attack. However as the FAW response for Hammer of Wrath shows that simply because something is described as an attack it does not make it a model's attack. When combined with the fact that strikedown is the only USR worded without specific qualifiers for when it applies, we get a mess.

Hence why I'm approaching it from as literal a standpoint as possible. In this case if is not on the weapon in use, and the USR does not say it's used when making an attack with a ranged and or melee weapon, then it applies only when the model uses it own A value to fight without making use of other equipment.

Also my intiial reply comes off as snarky and was typed way to fast on my phone. However I think it's a question worth asking because I've already had someone provide me a reference to change my mind about earlier comments. Therefore I've left it as originally written but apologize for its tone.

I'm also wondering why this situation has not come up before as all Monstrous creatures have strikedown and many of them mount ranged weapons as well.

That's just it I found the rules that say if you have 2 melee weapons you have to choose one or the other profile to use, and the same rule exists for shooting weapons, but I can't find a rule that says special rules associated with a model do not apply to its attacks? Example a Monstrous Creature has Smash which makes its attacks at AP2 regardless of the weapon profile , unless its AP1) Venomthropes have the Poisoned(2+) as a model ability and Lash Whips for a melee attack, so there are examples where special rules assocated with a model are applied to the models attacks with weapons, I am simply asking if you have rules examples to support the position that they don't.

Also Super Heavy Walkers and a special character or 2 have strikedown, not Monstrous Creatures., but i'm also surprised it hasn't already come up since those rules came out with 6th Ed apocalypse re-release. I haven't found any FAQ's from GW or Forgeworld that support what you are saying so far. But Apocalypse doesn't have a GW FAQ as yet, and the FAQ that came out in September was largely a cut and paste techmarine and wargear adjustment.

I personally do not think Strikedown RAI is meant to be used for Super-heavy Walker shooting attacks, but can't find anything that spells that out RAW.(Strikedown's inclusion in the Asail ranged psychic attacks makes it tough to say it never applies to shooting attacks) Also as Nab pointed out to me earlier a model that has a melee weapon "must" use that melee weapon profile, the option to use a S:User AP - CCW attacks is only made available if no melee weapon is available on a model.

Basically it needs a FAQ to prevent its inclusion for Heavy Stubbers, something along the lines of Strikedown only applies to close combat attacks unless included in a Shooting attacks profile.

[George Labour]

oOps...derped on the MC thing. They have smash not strikedown. Which incidentally is what makes them AP2. XD

TLDR: Nope I don't. But here's a wordy reply that might explain why I do. :)

But coming back to Smash again. It specifically says it applies to ALL close combat attacks except for Hammer of Wrath. It then provides further information saying when it supercedes a melee weapon's profile with its own rule. The same thing is done with pretty much all the other USRs that affect melee,and or ranged attacks with the exception of Strikedown.

However my initial thought on Strikedown, before I started in with this whole USRs not transferring around thing, was that one does not use one's own attacks when firing a ranged weapon. Instead one uses the weapon's profile to determine the number of dice rolled when making a Ranged attack with the weapon. At that point the only thing the model is doing is using its BS. That many of the USR's make mention of both ranged attacks, and close combat ones seems to make this a correct assumption.

Whereas with Melee weapons there is a rule that DOES say you use the model's A characteristic to determine how many dice are rolled.

Since the weapon doesn't have strikedown, and it doesn't say it applies to a weapon's ranged attacks like other USRs then I assume that it doesn't. That there is a witchfire power (Telekinesis primaris power pg422 BRB) with strikedown in it I keep coming back to the conclusion that I'm likely correct.

Though this still doesn't seem to resolve the matter of getting strikedown if the model has it, but not the weapon. XD

But I can see we're likely going to end up going in circles over that so it's probably something I'm going to want to let lay fallow until the next round of FAQs.

[Charon]

You draw conclusions out of thin air without providing rules supporting your POV.
I also think that RAI is melee attacks. But thats RAI,
RAW is ALL attacks (thats the wording) und thus the "correct" interpretation till FAQed.

[George Labour]

Additional question then as a secondary scenario deriving from this one. If a model has Poisoned (2+), but its ranged weapon is Rapid Fire, Poison (4+) does that ranged weapon now get poisoned (2+). If so, why?

Back on topic:

RAW strikedown occurs when a model suffers an unsaved wound, or passes one or more saving throws against an attack with the strikedown rule(pg.43). With one exception no ranged weapon and or ranged attack has that rule.

Ranged weapons DO NOT use a model's attack (That's the big A with a number under it) value ever and have their own profiles used when making ranged attacks. They instead roll a select number of dice based on their type (pg.50). The only part of the model used for determining a ranged attack's success or failure is its BS(PG.12-14) and USRs that specifically say they affect a ranged attack. Wounding, determining saves, and most other effects are derived from the weapon's profile and not the firing model.

Incidentally you'll find that the word attack is rarely used in the rules for shooting(pg12-19) with shoot, shooting, and firing being the most common designator applied to the action.

If you can show me an instance of where dice used for a shooting action are conferred a model's abilities without that rule saying 'a ranged attack', 'using a ranged weapon', or variation thereof then we're all ears.

Otherwise you're drawing conclusions out of the same thing we are.

[Gleipnir]

Preferred Enemy for one. It is passed to both shooting and close combat attacks, including their respective weapons.

Poisoned on a model is passed to its melee and close combat attacks per its rules and in the case of shooting attacks is not, and the rule accurately worded itself to reflect this, unlike Strikedown.

Strikedown's rules fail to specifiy when it can be applied to a shooting attack and when it applies to only close combat attacks and melee attacks of the model. Instead it uses the more general term of all of the models attacks.

Unfortunately the psychic shooting attack Asail's inclusion of Strikedown as a rule makes it impossible to suggest Strikedown never applies to ranged attacks. So RAW it would be passed along to all attacks both close combat and shooting until it recieves a FAQ to behave more along the lines of the existing Poisoned rules where it only retains the rule if attached to the shooting attack.

RAI I think this is what is intended but RAW it doesn't read that way.

[George Labour]

SIDENOTE: Soulblaze is another USR with similar wording. Though to my knowledge no model has it, just weapons.

Like I said we're going to argue this in circles.

I personally don't think it works that way based on the way the shooting chapter describes the act of shooting. I literally can not find the word attack in those pages. Whereas Melee is where the word attack is used repeatedly and models themselves have an Attack value. Then we have the FAQ entry saying a special attack (hammer of wrath & vector strike) do not get it. Additionally we have how other USR's are worded wherein they make distinctions between ranged and melee attacks. Finally that lack of a rule saying that USRs transfer to wargear without specific language.

You say it does because it says attack and logic dictates that firing machine guns (and other ouch inducers) at people fits the definition of attacking. Which is not incorrect and honestly is something that I somewhat agree with.

As your way requires less convoluted thought then it's probably the more correct one simply because it uses the term attack in its most literal sense, and is thus the easiest way to settle it. Plus it's something that's standard for a unit type, not a specific unit.

So personally right now I'm going to say it's only working when a Super heavy walker attacks without aid of specialty weapons. Mostly because I imagine telling folks that my vulcan mega bolter just knocked over their terminators is going to get things thrown at me. ^_^

At least until a FAQ clears it up the way it cleared it up for Hammer of Wrath.