Knight Ion Shield Vs. Blast Templates

[interrogator_chaplain]

So I just had a game with my Knight last night and ran into a conundrum. The Knight declares his Ion Shield at the start of the turn, and let's say it's declared for the Front armour. In front of you is a Riptide with the Ion Cannon. He puts the large blast over you and you take it on the side armour as per rules. Do you get to take the Ion Shield if the damage gets taken on the side?

[Gleipnir]

Blast weapons shots are resolved against the facing of the firing unit, do you mean Barrage?

[DWest]

Blast and Large Blast weapons are resolved as normal firing, i.e. against the closest side. What you're thinking of is the Barrage rule, which resolves (for purposes of working out who is hit and what cover save is permitted) from the final position of the center hole of the marker, and side only for the purpose of determining what AV it's going against (in older editions, this was explained as representing the thinner top-side armor). As the Riptide Ion Accelerator isn't Barrage, you'd use the closest facing to determine whether the Ion Shield was in play.

I would suspect that for a Barrage weapon, you'd use whatever "quadrant" the shot ended up in to determine whether the shield came into play or not; if you shield is front and the shot drifts into the front arc, you get it, otherwise no.

[DWest]

Blast and Large Blast weapons are resolved as normal firing, i.e. against the closest side. What you're thinking of is the Barrage rule, which resolves (for purposes of working out who is hit and what cover save is permitted) from the final position of the center hole of the marker, and side only for the purpose of determining what AV it's going against (in older editions, this was explained as representing the thinner top-side armor). As the Riptide Ion Accelerator isn't Barrage, you'd use the closest facing to determine whether the Ion Shield was in play.

I would suspect that for a Barrage weapon, you'd use whatever "quadrant" the shot ended up in to determine whether the shield came into play or not; if you shield is front and the shot drifts into the front arc, you get it, otherwise no.

[Siris Le Osiris]

Blast and Large Blast weapons are resolved as normal firing, i.e. against the closest side. What you're thinking of is the Barrage rule, which resolves (for purposes of working out who is hit and what cover save is permitted) from the final position of the center hole of the marker, and side only for the purpose of determining what AV it's going against (in older editions, this was explained as representing the thinner top-side armor). As the Riptide Ion Accelerator isn't Barrage, you'd use the closest facing to determine whether the Ion Shield was in play.

I would suspect that for a Barrage weapon, you'd use whatever "quadrant" the shot ended up in to determine whether the shield came into play or not; if you shield is front and the shot drifts into the front arc, you get it, otherwise no.

Barrage, as per the barrage section of the special rules always hits side armor of vehicles. (doesn't say which side though so who knows if the Knight has picked a side) so if he has picked the front and you hit him with an actual barrage weapon, no save imo.

So not relevant to riptides as they can get ordnance but not barrage.

[Gleipnir]

even assuming you hit it with a barrage weapon that didn't scatter the solution is pretty simple though, just randomly roll for which side is hit.

[Siris Le Osiris]

even assuming you hit it with a barrage weapon that didn't scatter the solution is pretty simple though, just randomly roll for which side is hit.
The centre of the blast is only determining for the wound pool, so not at all applicable for vehicles, for vehicles it is "always resolved against the side armor" (To represent hitting the top I would assume) so all you would be rolling for is left or right as you cant hit the front or back if you are always hitting the side.

[DWest]

The centre of the blast is only determining for the wound pool, so not at all applicable for vehicles, for vehicles it is "always resolved against the side armor" (To represent hitting the top I would assume) so all you would be rolling for is left or right as you cant hit the front or back if you are always hitting the side.

Wound pool, and also cover saves (i.e. if the barrage lands just on the other side of the wall, you still get cover, for example). It would either need to be allocated as per the final resting point of the marker, or not at all since you can't pick "top" as one of your sides. The idea of the left or the right being randomly more top than the other side doesn't feel "right".

In the meantime I would recommend not holding your breath waiting for an official FAQ.

[Siris Le Osiris]

The difference is the period then explaining how it affects vehicles.
So yes you could say it works as above for cover saves but it still is always resolved against the side armor of a vehicle.
Always is a pretty absolute wording and if the hit is always resolved on the sides it cant be defended by something on the front or back.
Ergo unless the shield is on a side it cant save against it.

[daboarder]

which side is the question

[Asuryan]

which side is the question

if firing a barrage weapon at a Knight that had the shield on the left, i would center the hole on the Knight's right side and if it didn't scatter then it would hit the right side armor.

Of course this runs into the issue of trying to decide the facing of the Knight which I know i saw a huge debate on how to do that correctly on some forum, but i think determining a line down the center of the model for left right purposes is simpler than trying to find the left front right and back arcs.

[Nabterayl]

I am also inclined to say that barrage weapons hit the specific side that the hole lands on, although I admit that I don't think you can prove this position from the rules.

[daboarder]

quarter the base accounts for all posing

[Gleipnir]

sorry I should have made my point more clear yes barrage weapons roll to wound against a vehicles Side armor facing, but the Ion shield needs to determine the direction of the attack, ie where is the center hole of the blast marker to determine what direction the attack is coming from, if the blast marker from a barrage doesn't scatter its a simple enough answer to simply randomly decide which facing the damage is coming from.

Barrage weapons always resolve their attacks against the side armor value (essentially implying that a vehicles top armor is the same as its side armor, funny enough apparently the bottom of vehicles are as armored as the tops too per Mawlocs) but it says nothing about facing or the direction the wounds are being allocated from beyond the earlier entry that wounds are resolved from closest to the center of the marker first which is the best indication of the direction of the attack for purposes of an Ion Shield.

[Demonus]

As of right now there is no correct way to figure out which side is hit with a barrage weapon. You can roll a d6 or you can house rule something. Hopefully a FAQ will address it.

[Wolfshade]

There are four ways of dealing with this that I can think of

A:
1. Ion Shield declares which face is activated
2. Fire barrage weapon at Knight and resolve scatter
3. Work out the facing hit by comparing the the whole location with the knight's facing
4. If the side is the same as the Ion Shield, resolve Ion Shield otherwise resolve against side armour value

B:
1. Ion Shield declares which face is activated
2. Fire barrage weapon at Knight and resolve scatter
3. Work out which side is hit, either left or right based on where the hole is
4. Resolve against the hit side

C:
1. Ion Shield declares which face is activated
2. Fire barrage weapon at Knight and resolve scatter
3. Barrage weapons strike the top of the knight which isn't a valid ion shield position so resolve shot without the shield.

D:
1. Ion Shield declares which face is activated
2. Fire barrage weapon at Knight and resolve scatter
3. Roll a D6 to determine which side armour is hit, resolve shot.

My preferred option would be A, but this makes the assumption that the wording for barrage weapons should be "resolve the shot as if it hit the side armour" rather than it always hits the side armour. Evidently, the rule writers didn't consider ion shield initially.

But I would agree that there is no "proper" way of resolving it.

[John Bower]

Personally RAI I'd be inclined to go with C, since you are meant to be hitting the 'top' which according to BRB is the same AV as the sides. It's resolved against the side to represent the top armour being weaker like the sides are. Think on it this way, does a model in a unit get a cover save hiding behind an Aegis line if the hole is over their side of the line? No, so treat the Ion shield like an invisible wall, the hole bypasses it.

[Demonus]

I dont see how C is viable. How can you hit the "top" of a model? I dont see any AV for "top" on any vehicle I own.

[sfshilo]

I dont see how C is viable. How can you hit the "top" of a model? I dont see any AV for "top" on any vehicle I own.

I would say the pen roll is side armour per the brb. Howver the facing is from the center just like everything else.

a. Its elegant and simple.
b. It forces both players to make choices rather then getting "auto" wins one way or the other.

any time you can make a ruling that is dependent on player action not dumb luck is always better imo.

edit. To expand on this position play out each ruling in your head. With the above approach the following will happen.

1. The knight see a bunch of manticores about to shoot him. He decides to leave his front armour vulnerable with his right covered and his left and front closer to the enemies units.
2. Enemy player now has to decide. Do I put the template on the exposed sides , and risk hitting my own guys or do I shoot the shielded side without guys.

there is much more game "fun" in this case than just, "nope roll a random die or nope your 300 point model is dead because of RAW jackassery."

[Zaklifean]

Sorry, I never post, but just thought I would throw my 2 cents in, for what its worth. The Barrage rule states "to determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armor". To me this says that you don't ever go by the firing model. So to get the ION shield save, the knight would have to declare side on the shields. Now determining what side it's going to hit is probably best determined by dice roll or house rule.

[Leviticus Stroud]

Counting as the side armour for barrages is due to the (incorrect) belief by GW rules writers that the armour on the top of a tank is weaker than that on the front.
It isn't of course. The top is usually stronger than the front- 'cos that's the angle the majority of hits will come in from! (Artillery, going down hill towards the enemy, helicopters, built up areas, etc)

For the purposes of the direction of a shot, the arc in which the firing model lies takes precedence over scatter except for the following:
Barrage weapons
Certain Apocalypse/Escalation markers that specifically state otherwise.

So if the shot came from the front of the Knight and the Ion shield was facing front then the 4++ applies.
Simply aiming the centre of a blast at the side of the Knight does not mean you have hit the side armour (6Ed p.73), so it doesn't mean you have bypassed the shield either!

So barrage wise I would say that if the blast marker is 'on target' then it must come from the direction of the firing model.
If it scatters but is still over the Knight then again it must come from the direction of the firing model- the hole is not actually in a different facing to change the direction of the blasts origin, the original shell must have gone through the appropriate facing to get there.
If it scatters and is now in a different facing, then the shot now counts as coming from that facing.


Yes that leaves a couple of issues regarding the shield protecting the knight but other models 'behind' that shield can still be hit, and the inability to deliberately target a visible facing that you don't actually lie in- but those are separate issues and problems from other areas of the rules.

[This Dave]

Counting as the side armour for barrages is due to the (incorrect) belief by GW rules writers that the armour on the top of a tank is weaker than that on the front.
It isn't of course. The top is usually stronger than the front- 'cos that's the angle the majority of hits will come in from! (Artillery, going down hill towards the enemy, helicopters, built up areas, etc)

Not quite. Top armor on modern tanks is more proportionally thick than the older models but it's nowhere near the thickness of the frontal or glacis armor. The turret top of an M1 can resist light autocannon fire at best while the front can bounce 125mm armor piercing shells without a sweat. GW actually has made this a bit better as they used to consider the top armor the same as the rear armor on vehicles.

[hisdudeness]

I believe sfshilo nailed it.

"Resolving" is not the same as "hitting". The barrage may "hit" the front armor, but the barrage rules just tell us to use the side armor value. Much like "lance" weapons. No matter which side you hit, resolve as if it AV12.

By using the hole to determine attack direction we answer both questions.

1) Which facing does the attack hit? Determined from the Blast hole as per pg 34, BRB.
2) Which AV do the resolve the attack at? The side AV as per pg 34, BRB.

[John Bower]

Counting as the side armour for barrages is due to the (incorrect) belief by GW rules writers that the armour on the top of a tank is weaker than that on the front.
It isn't of course. The top is usually stronger than the front- 'cos that's the angle the majority of hits will come in from! (Artillery, going down hill towards the enemy, helicopters, built up areas, etc)

For the purposes of the direction of a shot, the arc in which the firing model lies takes precedence over scatter except for the following:
Barrage weapons
Certain Apocalypse/Escalation markers that specifically state otherwise.

So if the shot came from the front of the Knight and the Ion shield was facing front then the 4++ applies.
Simply aiming the centre of a blast at the side of the Knight does not mean you have hit the side armour (6Ed p.73), so it doesn't mean you have bypassed the shield either!

So barrage wise I would say that if the blast marker is 'on target' then it must come from the direction of the firing model.
If it scatters but is still over the Knight then again it must come from the direction of the firing model- the hole is not actually in a different facing to change the direction of the blasts origin, the original shell must have gone through the appropriate facing to get there.
If it scatters and is now in a different facing, then the shot now counts as coming from that facing.


Yes that leaves a couple of issues regarding the shield protecting the knight but other models 'behind' that shield can still be hit, and the inability to deliberately target a visible facing that you don't actually lie in- but those are separate issues and problems from other areas of the rules.

Actually not, the armour on the top of a tank is weaker, which is why most missiles (the Hellfire for example) are designed to go up then come down through the top armour. Same for some mines that have been developed, they are 'tripwire' mines, that launch a projectile high in the air that then comes down into the tank like a missile. Front is the strongest on modern MBT's followed by side/top then rear. This is also to encourage (long has been in fact) Tank crews to point their tank at the enemy, rather than away in readiness to leg it. To have stronger armour on top would add weight, which modern tank designs are trying hard to get rid of by designing out crew positions in the turret, auto loaders and the gunner/commander will sit next to the driver in the main body also allowing for low profile.

[Weidekuh]

Barrage weapons are shot high into the sky and fall down on the enemy. They always hit the top. That's why you always hit the top floor when shooting at a building. The shot always comes from above. GW just assumes that top armor is the same as side armor, that's why on vehicles you treat it as hitting side armor for penetration rolls.

Furthermore, barrage weapons always count as shooting from the center of the blast marker. It simulates an exploding shell originating from the blast center. So taking front armour wouldn't make any sense. It does for normal blast weapons, tho.

Because of this I'm in the "Ion shields never protect against barrage weapons" camp. Except if you choose top for the shield facing. ;)

[Charon]

How about this:
1) take the direction of the shot from the center of the blast marker
2) resolve against side armor (not facing, just av)

so you follow all the rules and only get into uncertain territory when the marker hits exactly the center of the model.