ETC Wood Elf List

[jberrysf]

I'm heading to a big ETC style team tournament in June. In case you dont know, in ETC, all elves get ASF, Forest Spirit Wards don't disappear and BSBs can take upgrades. I'm starting to play test and look at different ideas, so I'd love feedback on this list, not just from a "this choice,that choice" perspective, but also from a "how will this play, what do I have to do here" question.

The last thing, is that I had the points to take 4 Treekin instead of the 20 Dryads, but wasn't sure it was the right choice. I'd love all types of comments and criticisms.

Spellsinger Level 4 Shadow, Rhymer's Harp
Spellsinge Level 3 Metal, Obsidian Lodestone (MR3), Scroll

Noble BSB, Eternal Kin, Light Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Hail of Doom Arrow
Noble Wildrider Kin, Annoyance of Netlings, Helm of the Hunt, Dragonbane Gem

Glade Riders (5) Musician
Glade Riders (5) Musician
Dryads (8)
Dryads (12)
Glade Guard (10) Musician
Glade Guard (20) Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Glade Guard (20) Full Command

Wild Riders (10) Full Command, Banner of Swiftness

Great Eagles (2)

The strategic intent is that the GG (draft 2 says you can take 50) sit back and pincushion 1 target at a time while the mages make it easier to kill those targets with The Withering, Plague of Rust, Transmutation of Lead and Enchanted Blades of Aiban. The Dryads babysit, speedbump and make use of stubborn in woods. The Glade riders and eagles redirect and the Wild Riders with the noble take out what ever threatens me outside of my capacity to handle ie Miners, Shades, Warlocks, War Machines, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheists.

I'd put the Wizards in one of the 20 man blocks of archers, garnering a 5+ ward from the harp and a 2+ against any magic. The BSB would probably be in the same unit, just for protection's sake.

Magic would be working as follows: Shadow serves to scare people with the threat of mindrazor, but really simply to Wither targets before shooting begins and punish with Pit of Shades; simultaneously, Metal is either taking out high armor targets, supplementing the Withering by cutting down armor with either Plague of Rust, Transmutation of Lead or Enchanted Blades and also threatening death stars with Final Trans. Final trans and Miasma also really go well together around controlling the movement phase, forcing stupidity tests and cutting cavalry movement to elvish movement, M5 to dwarven movement and slow things all the way down to m1 or m2.

Thanks for reading!

[Wildeybeast]

Does this event allow you to take what you want for lores? Cos otherwise you can't have those. Also, what is your total points cost?

Personally, I would be wary of pumping so many points into tow fragile spell casters, especially when you can do a lot of other interesting things with we characters.
Glade riders are a waste of time. For 2 points more, you can have wild riders who are much better. As for the treekin bs dryads debate, you should really be taking both, especially if you are playing permanent saves. Treekin are the best monstrous infantry in the game,you really need to fit them in. Along with some freemen as well. I would strip out your glade guard, take dryads as core and fill your army with as many forest spirits and as few actual elves as possible. It's the only way to do well with we.

[Chronowraith]

Wildey is right. If you have permanent forest spirit saves, then Treekin are a must. They are rock solid. I don't know that I'd bone up too much on the dryads though. They are resilient with T4 and perma forest spirit saves but they don't get ranks and can't have command.

I would honestly scale back the glade guard to a single unit of 20 with full command. You want at least a single unit of glade guard for the additional banner or you will be screwed when it comes to Blood and Glory.

I had the same question that Wildey had as far as the spellcasters go. Can you take any Lore you want under ETC rules? If so then keep the shadow mage. If not, convert Shadow to Life. Either way, drop the metal mage as your stated use for him is either a gimmick (the additional movement loss or final transmutation) or underwhelming against the wrong foes (what happens with he metal mage if you play against other Wood Elves, Skaven, Goblins, etc).

As for the glade riders, I've never seen them amount to much of anything. With the exception of shooting Eagles do everything they do better.

Regarding your tactics, even if you slow down a single unit every turn to M1 or M2, the rest of the army WILL reach your units. Basic an army's tactics around Magic is always a bad idea, what happens when you get two magic phases in a row with 3 or 4 WoM dice? Ranged attacks, even the glade guard, won't drag down enough of the enemy to matter before they reach you. I don't know what the ETC rules are regarding Skaven, but you'd never clear out enough slaves in a typical Skaven list so that they didn't bog you down for 2-4 turns and those are cheap throw-away units.

[jberrysf]

My total is 2500, which in the ETC comp pack is what Wood Elves are allowed. They are, in fact, able to take any lore.

Wildey, as right as you are about the Glade Riders being a) overcosted and b) not as good as Wild Riders in combat, there are 2 things that Glade Riders do better. They shoot off chaffe (Fell Bats, Dogs, Wolves, Harpies, Nurglings) ridiculously effectively, and they also dont have immune to psychology. While that really makes them vulnerable to fleeing off the table as soon as a stiff breeze comes their way, it also allows them to use feigned flight or double flees far more effectively. Simply put, they have a very different job than the Wild Riders.

Chrono, you are so right about the movement issue, but the more I slow down 1 or 2 specific units with spells, the less work my redirectors (eagles and glade riders) have to do. If I can make a unit of WoC Knights, or a chariot only move 4 or 5 instead of 7, that gives me another turn where I'm not afraid of their charge. I can then put my fast cav in front of the Skullcrushers, double flee and keep them only moving 5 inches a turn also. I hear you about the Treekin and Treeman though. This is one of the squishiest lists I've ever worked with. I guess on some level I get tired of my Treeman still missing his leadership test on stubborn 8, even though his did 5 wounds, simply because he lost on combat res. Same with Treekin. They are brilliant, but they struggle against sturdy ranked, bannered opponents. Their inability to have a banner and their inability to have a musician hurts them a ton.

[Wildeybeast]

Not as much as you think. Take a unit of six and very few things will win combat against 18 WS5 S5 attacks, especially if you augment them with Beasts. Sure horde units may be steadfast against them, but they wont be winning combat. Furthermore, your combat stuff is faster than everything that isn't an elf, so you can support your units and when and where you fight. The issue you have is that you will get into combat and Chrono is right that you simply can't divert or slow down enough stuff to stop you getting stomped. Far better to embrace the killy stuff you do have. You basically have 4 diverter units and 3 shooty, with only 3 combat units, none of which are especially effective. At the end of day, take the list that you want to play, but if you want my advice, you are in for a world of hurt with this list. I've played in BB with a list based around Dryads and Treekin and it was very effective, until the ward saves popped, but you don't need to worry about that. Take the game to your opponent I say.

Other thoughts:
If the GR are just there for shooting off chaff, take a noble with alter kindred and either bow of loren or hail of doom. Half the cost and much more effective. I'd also look at Waywatchers, same price but more effective.
Ditch one of those wizards for a unit of treekin or a treeman.
I'd look again at your bsb as well. I'm assuming he is sitting in your archers, so shield and LA are a waste of points; he's dead the second they get in combat regardless of how much armour he has. For that same reason, he's fairly redundant in there. You aren't likely to take too many panic tests before combat. Also, Hail of Doom on him is completely useless as he loses his bow (unless you buy him a magic one). If you want a BSB, stick him in your wild riders where he'll do more good.

[Chronowraith]

Again, I'm unfamiliar with the specific list restrictions for ETC but the 50 Glade Guard will not kill enough models for your units to win in close combat. So slowing down a single unit won't work and while glade guard/eagles give you plenty of redirect units, don't forget that unit can redirect charges if you choose to flee then the unit can redirect to other available units and that redirect declaration (and movement) happens after your flee move.

Just working some basic math here but at Long range the Glade Guard will hit on 4s, and against the majority of armies out there, will wound on 4s. So you are looking at 12 wounds before any armor saves are accounted for. This drops if you start moving the glade guard or if cover comes into effect. At short range the odds go up and you'll wound an average of 22 models before armor saves BUT, you will likely only get a single phase of shooting at short range before being charged ( since the average charge range is 11-12". So if you throw a 4+ save on a model you are looking at 6 dead models at long range or 11 at short range PER PHASE. That's against Toughness 3. The count goes down dramatically when you factor in T4. Now, that's just rough mathhammer and the dice could prove me wrong or leave you in even worse shape than above. This is a game of chance afterall.

Waywatchers are a better way to remove chaff as Wildey stated. Why? Same price, similar mobility (since they can deploy almost anywhere) and they have an impact on the game at any phase (beginning, middle, and end). They will also help against high armor armies since they have killing blow. Glade Riders on the other hand will only ever be useful in early and mid-game.

So let's go with the optimal and say you kill 11 models per shooting phase and can slow down another with your magic tricks. At 2500 I can throw down a lot of models for Skaven (250-300 for a fully optimized list). I'd deploy probably 8 giant blocks of infantry (of if unit sizes are capped potentially more). In those 3 phases you *might* kill off a single unit of clanrats with good dice and you could delay one other unit through magic and we'll say you even manage to get another unit off due to redirect/distraction tactics. You still have at least 4-5 units bearing down on you plus the monsters/contraptions/ambushers/etc.

I concur with Wildey's suggestions too. To reiterate those plus my own:
*Drop the metal mage
*Drop at least one unit of Glade Riders (preferably both)
*Scale back Glade GUard to a single unit of 20. Alternatively switch to two units of 15.
*Add a unit of Waywatchers
*Add a unit of at least 6 Treekin
*Shore of Dryads into two units of 10 (or 15 if you have the points).

I'll see if I can't write up a quick WE list that contains the suggestions and explain how it would work.

As a note, I don't offer suggestions on equipment because I don't know it well enough. I don't play Wood Elves, I simply play against them on a weekly basis (my best friend plays Wood Elves). So I have years of practice of knowing what works and what doesn't work against them using multiple armies (Skaven, WoC, and TK primarily).

[Chronowraith]

Okay, so taking into account the various non-equipment comments that Wildey and I have given, I've come up with the following list:

Spellweaver - Lore of Shadow, Rhymer's Harp, Scroll

Noble - BSB, Eternal Kin, Light Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Hail of Doom
Noble - Wildrider Kin, Annoyance of Netlings, Helm of the Hunt, Dragonbane Gem

2x Dryads x15
Dryads x10
Glade Guard x15 - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Glade Guard x15 - Musician

Wild Riders x10 - Full Command, Razor Standard
Treekin x6

2x Great Eagle
Waywatchers x5

The above list leaves you with 56 points remaining so you can either make some personal additions, gear swaps, etc.

Tactics - The bigger units of dryads and the Treekin will pull double duty as hammers and anvils. Glade Guard will be there to remove chaff, protect characters, and try and put some wounds on more troubling units that might give Dryads and Treekin a run for their money. They will also suitably deal with flanking units pretty well too. The small unit of Dryads will protect the flank (or rear of the table if expecting ambushers) while the wild riders are your fast moving flanking anvil. The great eagles are there for redirects and war machine hunting while the waywatchers will deal with chaff and solo-characters.

A few changes. I added a scroll to the Shadow Mage since I dropped the Lv3 metal guy. I usually say that scrolls are a crutch and that players should play without them, but it's a personal preference. I swapped the Banner of Swiftness for the Razor Standard. This will let you deal with heavily armored units better (S5 -3 Save on the charge should remove most Chaos Warrior units pretty handily).

I do suggest you take a look at your gear. The Glade Guard shouldn't need a 5+ Ward save (as they shouldn't be in combat) and so you could save yourself 45 points by switching to the generic 5+ ward for only the character.

I think with a little tweaking of magic items/gear that you could save enough points to either bolster the remaining dryads to 15, bolster a glade guard to 20 (I personally wouldn't do this), buy another waywatcher unit, or grab a solo noble with alter kindred and hail of doom (and maybe actually take a magic standard on your BSB).

Anyway, just a suggested list based on comments from (mostly) myself with some of Wildey's thrown in.

[jberrysf]

Whoa thanks for the thorough feedback! I'm gonna slap this together with the feedback I'm getting at my club and see if I can round out this draft of the list. I really appreciate the depth of these responses. I'll post back up in a day or so with my final plan. Game on Thursday, so we should have a bit more time to chop it up. :)

[Wildeybeast]

Glad we could help, let us know how it goes!

[The_Gonk]

Glade Riders can be very handy, they're somewhat match-up dependent though. Check out MrMalorian's Youtube channel for someone who consistently does well with a Glade Rider heavy Wood Elf army!