Psyocculum + Skyfire?

[Harley]

What is the ballistic skill of a squad joined by a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum, firing at a Flyer/FMC with the Psyker special rule?

Thank you.

[Wolfshade]

In order of operations. Apply modifiers in the following order
1. Multiplications (i.e. Double strength)
2. Additions/Subtractions (i.e. +1 Strength)
3. Set Values (i.e. Snap shots)

[Blood Shadow]

I'd say it could be 10...the rules don't mention snap shots...there are other rules that ignore the snap shot restrictions to fire at full BS, one of these is a psychic power...why not?

Interestingly the rule states counts as BS10 (not has BS10) so hitting on 2s with reroll...as it kind of ignores their actual BS by "counting as" BS10 I think it'd work.

[Harley]

Thanks for the reply.

As Blood Shadow says, the wording is "...count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a unit containing one or more... (Psycher special rule)"

So there is no multiplication or addition/subtraction. They simply "count as".

My thought is it could be useful in a shooty squad against flying Daemon Princes.

[Angelus Mortifer]

But for shooting at Flyers or Swooping MCs without counting as Snap Shots, you need to have Skyfire. Yes their BS might go up to 10 (and would be 10 for all normal shooting), but as soon as you target a Flyer you are needing 6's To-Hit without the benefit of Skyfire (irrespective of whether it makes a special dispensation versus a "Psyker" unit). The BS increase comes before the target you're aiming at, so you're doing it the right way, but the flying target becomes the last "modification" to the roll that you need to make.

[Harley]

But for shooting at Flyers or Swooping MCs without counting as Snap Shots, you need to have Skyfire. Yes their BS might go up to 10 (and would be 10 for all normal shooting), but as soon as you target a Flyer you are needing 6's To-Hit without the benefit of Skyfire (irrespective of whether it makes a special dispensation versus a "Psyker" unit). The BS increase comes before the target you're aiming at, so you're doing it the right way, but the flying target becomes the last "modification" to the roll that you need to make.

Is that similar to Tau using Marker Lights to increase ballistic skill for Overwatch? For that matter, can Marker Lights increase BS when firing at Flyers for a unit without Skyfire?

I ask because I do not have my BRB available at the moment but iirc, Flyer's Hard to Hit rule states that models without Skyfire must use Snapshot, and Snapshot states that models "count as" BS1, which would parallel the Psyocullum's "count as".

[Mr.Pickelz]

The thing to note in these situations is the order of application, did the BS10 come first, or did the Snap-shot rule? imo, these happen instantaneously (IE, at the same point in time) and therefore the application order would be under the control of the player whose phase it is. I come to this conclusion due to the way Drop-pod/ Deepstrike reserves are handled in combination with blessings. Both happen at the same time, and the owning player may choose to resolve the Deepstrike first, and then cast blessings on the, recently arrived from reserves, unit. (from a unit that is already on the table)

With that in mind, I would find the declaration of shooting to go something like,
1.Unit A targets flying Unit B.
2.Unit A checks range on guns and Line Of Sight.
3. To determine the difficulty of roll, the variables are checked, Unit B is flying (or swooping or whatever it might be called) and a Psyker, the modification to the difficulties of rolling are applied simultaneously and therefore the controlling player can declare, Snap-shots will put Unit A at BS 1, and then the wargear's affect will put Unit A to BS 10.

If it were Unit B's turn, then the opposite could equally happen, where the wargear is first applied, and then the Snap-shot rule, which would make the unit BS1. At the Player's discretion.

[Wolfshade]

I would disagree with you Mr. Pickelz.

In the same way that PoTMS works vs flyers/ground targets (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?42011-Question-about-power-of-the-machine-spirit)

1. Unit A with the Psyker modifies the BS
2. Unit A targets Unit B
3. If:
a: Target is not a flyer -> normal rules for shooting (no further modifications to the 'To Hit' roll / BS)
b: Target is a flyer -> at this point the rules for shooting at flyers overides the normal rules ( 'To Hit' roll is modified)

The Tau Markerlight is a different situation as Codex: Tau specifically says that they increase the BS when resolving Overwatch and Snapshots. This is a special rule.

[Angelus Mortifer]

I agree that the order you describe does apply in several situations, and does go by the owning player's turn to decide which rule to allocate first in a sequence, but the I think the Shooting at Flyers/FMCs-Snap Shooting rule pretty much supercedes any other rule, unless that shooting unit has Skyfire. Unless an ability specifically states either that it has Skyfire, or word-for-word to the effect of, "this unit can shoot at a Zooming Flyer/Swooping FMC using it's normal Ballistic Skill" and/or, "the unit ignores the Snapshot rule" then you would still be needing 6's to hit irrespective of what other benefits to shooting you get as part of an ability.

Don't have my BRB at work though to be 100% certain.

Ninja'd :D

[Mr.Pickelz]

@Wolfshade
The "PoTMS works vs flyers/ground targets" seems legit, as the last part of the rule states that the shot is, "subject to normal rules for shooting." so therefore, the PoTMS shot would be BS1 against zooming and other flying stuff because the rule still has to go through the normal shooting rules. The Psyocculum however, is a wargear that modifies the Ballistic Skill and does not replace and/or give a basic value, outside the normal rules of shooting and gives a set value (not +2 or x2) and would therefore be considered as one of the last modifiers presented when determining characteristics, along with the Snap-shot modifier.

Page 7 of BRB under Basic versus Advanced
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." and on the next and last paragraph for the section it notes,
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

To me, this puts the Psyocculum as an override to the BRB's shooting mechanics as long as the requirements are met, "The bearer of a Psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one ore more psykers." page 58 of Codex: Grey Knights

So the flying unit is Flying (Hard to Hit), but also a Psyker and therefore, since the requirement is met, the Psyocculum's affect now comes into contention with the rules for snap-shot. This would then fall under the "Basic versus Advanced" paragraph and allow the Psyocculum's modifier to supersede the Hard-to-hit's modifier.

This is when considering the Snap-shot's rule as "Basic" and the Psyocculum's rule as "Advanced".

If the Psyocculum wargear is not considered as such, then the Snap-shot rule would be the argued as the last set-value modifier presented in the formula and Unit A would have a BS of 1 when targeting Unit B. (while B is flying/zooming/swooping)

[Harley]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about Skyfire and Hard to Hit. All Hard to Hit states is that a model without Skyfire must fire at it as a Snapshot. It says nothing about Ballistic Skill etc. So we must then defer to Snapshot.

Snapshot P. 13 BRB
“…model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then it’s Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.”

We can then compare to Psyocullum: "...count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a unit containing one or more... (Psyker special rule)"

These two rules are worded almost the exact same and run in parallel. Both say "counts as" and both use Set Values.

Thus I would have to agree with Pickelz in that on the controlling players turn, he can choose the Psyocullum to take precedence and on the opposing turn, the Snapshot.

[Wolfshade]

If wargear is an advanced rules, then using a signum would I be firing at BS2 as snap shots?

I would say not. I would say that wargear is a basic rule. I would say shooting at most units are again basic. You then have the basic rules for shooting overwritten by the advanced case of shooting at a flyer.

[DarkLink]

Wargear applies to when you're shooting, which is the general case. Snap Firing applies only to very specific circumstances, making it the more specific rule, thus it overrides.

[Harley]

Wargear applies to when you're shooting, which is the general case. Snap Firing applies only to very specific circumstances, making it the more specific rule, thus it overrides.

But Advanced vs Basic rules are not based on "general case" or "specific". They are based on core rulebook vs codex. Snap Firing is found in the core rulebook and thus is a basic rule. Wargear is found in the Codex and thus is advanced. That is how Advanced vs Basic rules are defined.

[Nabterayl]

But Advanced vs Basic rules are not based on "general case" or "specific". They are based on core rulebook vs codex. That is how Advanced vs Basic rules are defined.
He's right about that. My instinct still says Hard to Hit cannot be overridden consequentially, but I haven't yet come up with a reading in this case that convinces me why my instinct is right.

[DarkLink]

Right, they changed it from specific to codex in 6th.

[Gleipnir]

The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a unit containing one or more models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

From the main rulebooks FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as SpaceMarine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

The only reason Markerllights can be used to increase the BS of Snap Shots is because the Tau Codex specifically says Snap Shots can be increased and takes priority over what is said in the FAQ rules.

The inquisition codex entry does not do this, so would fall into the same category as signums or Telion's voice of Experience. They essentially already said Snap Shots take priority over other special rules that effect BS skill, unless they specifically contradict that by mentioning how they handle Snap Shots as the Tau entry did.