View Full Version : Get on the same page and stop being Rats to the GW Piper (7e (6.1e))
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 07:39 AM
The Community needs to get together (this has nothing to do with Pew-Pew);
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This is GW's new idea; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem
Wheat and chessboard problem
Imagine the squares were codices/supplements/FaQs/etc. and the grains of rice/wheat were RULES, now the cause and effect/affect of each rule on another rule is the total.
Pretty simple really, KINSS; Keep It Not Simple Stupid. (see below)
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GW's new approach (6e) is everything including the kitchen sink is allowed, the more rules, the harder for the Interwebs to figure out, and thus BREAK the game (finding good units and lists verses crap units). (Helldrake was a good example of this, crap unit, FaQ drop, great unit)
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Breaking the game; makes GW units/products (crap units) sit on shelves and collect dust (= no sales).
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GW's old approach was every other edition;
Make bad units in the game great in the new edition.
Make great units in the game bad in the new edition.
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But the Interwebs were able to adjust and break the new edition/game in about a year (Fantasy 8e), and when a new book dropped, 30 days or less the Interwebs broke that also, so GW is seeing a slump in sales, and seeing product/stock that does not move. (Chaos Spawn was a good example of this, as Spawn were voted worst unit in both Fantasy and 40K, but now in 6e, they are good).
So, now we have GW dropping tons of rules, that are constantly changing the game, and the community is arguing up a storm, if to allow the rules or not, if players should or should not have copies of rules or not, models, blah, blah.
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So, if GW does release a 7e (or 6.1e), it will be in an attempt to wrestle control back from the Interwebs, and to force the community to use everything including the kitchen sink, because it will ALL be in a Main rulebook, as opposed to now, with supplements/extra scenario books/FW allowed/Fortification in box rules/etc. which are an option that are not in the main rulebook, and big tournaments and communities are saying no way to them.
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On the entire chessboard there would be 264 − 1 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice/wheat, weighing 461,168,602,000 metric tons, which would be a heap of rice larger than Mount Everest. This is around 1,000 times the global production of rice in 2010 (464,000,000 metric tons).[7]
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Stop arguing and agree, Community, Indy Game Stores, and Tournaments get together!
Make a stand either for or against everything including the kitchen sink.
Making two types of Tournaments was a great start, now spread that to all Tournaments of all sizes in all Venues (local Tournaments), stop being individuals, and get together and make a stand.
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Stop being Rats to the GW Piper...
Note; Pew-Pew is not the subject.
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Psychosplodge
03-04-2014, 07:43 AM
Your page has gone
Mr Mystery
03-04-2014, 07:49 AM
And this is why you shouldn't post whilst on psychtropic drugs, ladies and gentleman.
jonsgot
03-04-2014, 08:20 AM
Sorry I'm really confused. Do I stop or start being Rats to the GW Piper. Do you want me to make a stand either for or against everything including the kitchen sink?
I thought GW's latest thing was to make cool looking models and care not for the rules.
And this is why you shouldn't post whilst on psychtropic drugs, ladies and gentleman.
+1
miteyheroes
03-04-2014, 08:27 AM
I remember when it took years between Codex updates, and people complained that their army didn't see any love. They harkened back to the good old days of the end of Rogue Trader, when White Dwarf constantly released rules that completely changed the game. Or 3rd/4th, when new armies were released in White Dwarf or Campaign Codices.
But now we're drowning in too much love - supplements for armies, Fortifications/Escalation giving you new possible units to add to your army, dataslates, faster codex production etc. So people complain even more.
"I thought GW's latest thing was to make cool looking models and care not for the rules."
That's always been GW's thing, really.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 08:27 AM
Sorry I'm really confused. Do I stop or start being Rats to the GW Piper. Do you want me to make a stand either for or against everything including the kitchen sink?
I thought GW's latest thing was to make cool looking models and care not for the rules.
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Did the word Stop confuse you, sorry...
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Did make a stand either way confuse you as well, sorry...
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So, errr, what cool "new" models? I see more NEW "Rules" dropping than "new" models, but thanks for the useless response, it was very helpful to prove my point of the problems, thanx.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 08:28 AM
And this is why you shouldn't post whilst on psychtropic drugs, ladies and gentleman.
So helpful, Thanx
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You are right, lets not try to help 40K and fix 40K problems, lets create more by never resolving anything...
Mr Mystery
03-04-2014, 08:29 AM
Knights are new.
Chaos Helbrute is a new model with existing rules.
And you know, GW have always said what they provide is a framework, and if we want to go all off piste, they don't especially care either way.
Or is this more about you just wanting everyone to play your way?
Psychosplodge
03-04-2014, 08:35 AM
Your wikipedia link is still broken
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 08:35 AM
But now we're drowning in too much love - supplements for armies, Fortifications/Escalation giving you new possible units to add to your army, data-slates, faster codex production etc. So people complain even more.
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EXACTLY, well said, thanks!
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Complain is not necessarily the issue, it is the confusion multiplied exponentially.
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If I walk into a non GW game store and want to play, every player, and every store will give me a different issue (different type/level of game), what a waste of everyones time.
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It was much easier to get a game back in 3rd, as even with no interwebs, house rules and FaQs were mailed and faxed to each other from Maryland (GW prime territory) and most players, tournaments, and FLGS were on the same page.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 08:37 AM
Your wikipedia link is still broken
Thank you; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem
Wheat and chessboard problem
Mr Mystery
03-04-2014, 08:38 AM
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EXACTLY, well said, thanks!
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Complain is not necessarily the issue, it is the confusion multiplied exponentially.
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If I walk into a non GW game store and want to play, every player, and every store will give me a different issue (different type/level of game), what a waste of everyones time.
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It was much easier to get a game back in 3rd, as even with no interwebs, house rules and FaQs were mailed and faxed to each other from Maryland (GW prime territory) and most players, tournaments, and FLGS were on the same page.
That's always been the way though.
Tournaments have their preferences. House rules anyone?
It's an integral part of the hobby.
Just relax about it. Even stuff that is official faces unofficial restrictions in some areas. And it's not GW doing it.
jonsgot
03-04-2014, 08:45 AM
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Did the word Stop confuse you, sorry...
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Did make a stand either way confuse you as well, sorry...
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So, errr, what cool "new" models? I see more NEW "Rules" dropping than "new" models, but thanks for the useless response, it was very helpful to prove my point of the problems, thanx.
Nothing is useless.
I've read your post again and I think I understand what you want. You want a handful of event organisers to decide what should or should not happen. You just don't care what does or does not happen? You want the community to make a decision on what should or should not happen and then petition those who have the power to control it.
The current rate of book release is too fast for me, but I wouldn't want to go back to the 5e release rates.
Things will sort themselves out. The events that grow will be copied by those that don't. If they all grow it will be a miracle considering GW falling sales.
Defenestratus
03-04-2014, 08:50 AM
The new release schedule is the greatest thing to ever happen to our hobby.
If for no other reason that its upset the apple cart of the WAAC crowd.
(But the real reason is because, as an Eldar player, I know that I'm not going to have to wait another 7 freakin years for new stuff)
Psychosplodge
03-04-2014, 08:50 AM
Basicaly are you suggesting that every disgruntled player recruits two disgruntled players in some sort of boycott till they do things the way the disgruntled player wants?
The problem being no one can agree which particular aspect of the hobby they're disgruntled about?
SaveModifier
03-04-2014, 08:57 AM
I am so confused, so, more rules coming out, faster than ever, with awesome models to back that up with more and more ways to play the game, is a bad thing? Maybe I'm not hobbying right then because I think its great
If I walk into a non GW game store and want to play, every player, and every store will give me a different issue (different type/level of game), what a waste of everyones time.
That's been the case for a long time.
Unless GW starts releasing FAQ more quickly (and better ones), this problem will persist, because as slow as GW is, it would still be faster than players somehow getting together, creating a world-wider set of FAQs (that may override GW's), and disseminating them.
You will have to stick to small-scale local agreements (otherwise known as house rules), because timely large scale ones will not happen.
Defenestratus
03-04-2014, 09:41 AM
I have a feeling that people who are having a hard time absorbing and adapting to all the new rules, supplements, models, etc... are the same kind of people who thought that they HAD to always color in between the lines in their coloring books.
Arkhan Land
03-04-2014, 10:10 AM
this is not the best mathematical concept to help illustrate GW problem.
a better analogy might be any irrational number, as GW tried to examine the problem in further detail, further detail emerges.
either way this is all not the greatest way to look at an issue who's complexity is perfectly encapsulated by itself, a situation we already understand.
To throw in my personal two cents, right now in the last few years the game itself (organization and players) have yeilded several ways to play: Friendly Games, Competetive Games, Killteam, Combat Patrol, Normal 40k, Apocalypse, Tournament Style Limitations, etc.
I think its really up to each and every gamer to figure out what they want to do.
Some people think that their local store should be a pathway to the way they want to play.
other people travel miles and miles and miles for tournaments.
There's people like me who throw down on home tables two or three times a week and go to the store once or twice a month.
With the internet present hopefully the only real limitation to your games is your own laziness and your willingness to compromise.
Mr Mystery
03-04-2014, 10:32 AM
On the entire chessboard there would be 264 − 1 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice/wheat, weighing 461,168,602,000 metric tons, which would be a heap of rice larger than Mount Everest. This is around 1,000 times the global production of rice in 2010 (464,000,000 metric tons).[7]
*Dons the maths hat* (and yes, it is Maths, not Math, silly foreign types).....
I think you'll find, according to my indepth caluclations, that 264 - 1 does not in fact equal 18,446,744,073,551,615.00 but 263.
On account 263 is 264 - 1.
Unless you mean 264 to the power of one, which would be 264......
Denzark
03-04-2014, 10:37 AM
I like the design team better than event organisers. In terms of game balance (or lack thereof). I don't trust event organisers to bring what the authors can't - most event organisers pander to the tourney scene.
PS why is this news or rumours?
DarkLink
03-04-2014, 11:30 AM
*Dons the maths hat* (and yes, it is Maths, not Math, silly foreign types).....
I think you'll find, according to my indepth caluclations, that 264 - 1 does not in fact equal 18,446,744,073,551,615.00 but 263.
On account 263 is 264 - 1.
Unless you mean 264 to the power of one, which would be 264......
He's missing the exponents. And all the rest of the math that would explain why its relevant. And while 264-1 is relevant to the wheat and chessboard problem, I'm not sure why it's particularly relevant to the discussion. Tournament players aren't happy with some of the new stuff, not because it's too complex to wrap our heads around with a little practice, but because a lot of it is massively imbalanced to the point of utterly ruining 40k as a potentially competitive game.
StarWarsDoug
03-04-2014, 12:09 PM
This debate has no place in rumors or news as it is not neither. Nor is it coherent or logical. At best the non-sequiturs make my brain ache trying to infer the intent of the author, at worst we are all worse off for even attempting to comprehend it.
There are three steps in presenting a case simply:
1. State your position. The answer you want the audience to agree with. "Tell them what you are going to tell them"
2. State your supporting facts. Connect the dots. Start from point A and arrive at point B. "Tell them."
3. State your position. Repeat your conclusion. "Tell them what you just told them."
I have no idea what you really need the wheat rice problem in this discussion for other than to make yourself appear more intelligent than you may be. All you needed to state was GW is making their rules more complex and it makes your life A)harder or B)simpler. You want everyone to A) tell them to stop or B) tell them to continue. Because you are/are not happy that GW is making their rules more complex.
Which in my esteemed view means everyone just go about your business so long as you have an opinion on the matter. Everyone else needs to form one.
And since we are referencing the "interwebs" indispensable body of knowledge for no real purpose. Here's some extremely intelligent people failing at math:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww
1+2+3+4+...+infinity= -1/12 is false.
:p
Yes, this is in jest.
bfmusashi
03-04-2014, 12:49 PM
this is not the best mathematical concept to help illustrate GW problem.
a better analogy might be any irrational number, as GW tried to examine the problem in further detail, further detail emerges.
Smells like heresy >.>
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=Mr Mystery;400499]Knights are new.
Chaos Helbrute is a new model with existing rules./QUOTE]
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Knight, with new Rules, check.
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Hellbrute, existing rules, and an entire New Codex of rules, check
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Not about playing my way, just pick ANY way (or two) that is/are consistent, not rocket surgery...
Mr Mystery
03-04-2014, 01:10 PM
GW have done.
It's all playable and fair game at their events.
Outside of that, it's each individuals decision.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:11 PM
That's always been the way though.
Tournaments have their preferences. House rules anyone?
It's an integral part of the hobby.
Just relax about it. Even stuff that is official faces unofficial restrictions in some areas. And it's not GW doing it.
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The Community (BoLS, players, etc.) and Tournaments have much more influence on the game as a whole than GW, IF, the community would get together.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:25 PM
You want a handful of event organisers to decide what should or should not happen.
You just don't care what does or does not happen?
You want the community to make a decision on what should or should not happen and then petition those who have the power to control it.
The current rate of book release is too fast for me, but I wouldn't want to go back to the 5e release rates.
Things will sort themselves out. The events that grow will be copied by those that don't. If they all grow it will be a miracle considering GW falling sales.
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Exactly, well said.
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Yes, kind of, the Community as a whole should decide, not just a few TI's.
Yes, I personally do not care, as long as there is a decision. But my vote would be only two types of game (see below).
Yes, everyone on the same page (or at least on two or three pages, lol) as it is now, everyone is on completely different pages.
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Yes, for instance, lets say there was; a strict codex and Main rulebook only game, and an open everything and the kitchen sink game, great, then players could pick one, as it is now, players are constantly arguing about what to use and what not use, which is definitely hurting the community, and stifling the growth of new players, etc.
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Same page. (note Pew-Pew not topic and not influenced)
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Release rate to fast for most.
Not hard for GW to bring all Codices up to date at the same time (when new main edition drops) with E-Dexs, so no excuses here.
I hope so.
Lukas The Trickster
03-04-2014, 01:26 PM
that is/are consistent, not rocket surgery...
Sounds painful
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:27 PM
(But the real reason is because, as an Eldar player, I know that I'm not going to have to wait another 7 freakin years for new stuff)
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I laughed very loudly, but then shed a Tear for the SoB players, lol...
Tomgar
03-04-2014, 01:33 PM
Here's a suggestion: why don't we all chill the hell out and play Warhammer the way we wanna play Warhammer? Discuss bones of contention with opponents and come to a consensus if things are really so disorientating and confusing for you. I mean, it's a wargame with toy soldiers, not an intense legal battle.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:38 PM
To throw in my personal two cents, right now in the last few years the game itself (organization and players) have yielded several ways to play:
Friendly Games,
Competitive Games,
Killteam,
Combat Patrol,
Normal 40k,
Apocalypse,
Tournament Style Limitations, etc.
I think its really up to each and every gamer to figure out what they want to do.
With the internet present hopefully the only real limitation to your games is your own laziness and your willingness to compromise.
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Well said.
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Yes, there are many ways to play, Pew-Pew, and players decide how to play all the time.
But like it or not, "Normal 40K" as you put it (MRB two player versus) is the mainstay, of which there is little agreement, who wants to discuss/debate for an hour before a game on which, what, and how they are going to play?
What a waste of energy.
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Players want the "Game Company" to lead them (answer questions.)
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Compromise is a huge issue.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:42 PM
I like the design team better than event organisers. In terms of game balance (or lack thereof). I don't trust event organisers to bring what the authors can't - most event organisers pander to the tourney scene.
PS why is this news or rumours?
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Yes, but the community has more influence and insight than GW on fair play (and time constraints, etc.)
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News, I think I forgot to put 7e (6.1e) on my original post, but it is really about the vomiting of rules onto the community at an alarming rate.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 01:50 PM
He's missing the exponents. And all the rest of the math that would explain why its relevant. And while 264-1 is relevant to the wheat and chessboard problem, I'm not sure why it's particularly relevant to the discussion. Tournament players aren't happy with some of the new stuff, not because it's too complex to wrap our heads around with a little practice, but because a lot of it is massively imbalanced to the point of utterly ruining 40k as a potentially competitive game.
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ROFL, take the Maths complaints to Wikipedia... (I would hope the both of you get the referencing of the cross referencing of the cross referenced reference I presented, lol)
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It is not just Tournament players (I do not play in Tournaments) it is the state of the game in general rules wise, that effects ALL players in some way.
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I would challenge you to present a list of ALL the rules publications and what format said rules are in (E-Book, Book, Rules in box only leaflet, etc) that are to be used in current 40K. Please, because I do not have that kind of time...
Tomgar
03-04-2014, 02:02 PM
Okay, seriously, am I high right now?
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 02:04 PM
There are three steps in presenting a case simply:
1. State your position. The answer you want the audience to agree with. "Tell them what you are going to tell them"
2. State your supporting facts. Connect the dots. Start from point A and arrive at point B. "Tell them."
3. State your position. Repeat your conclusion. "Tell them what you just told them."
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Kind of thanks? (I think I forgot to put 7e (6.1e) rumor on my original post, sorry to everyone).
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1) GW's new strategy is vomiting out rules faster than ever on multiple platforms (E-Books, rules only in box leaflets, Physical Books, etc.), which is creating exponential problems.
2) Wheat and Chessboard example, which players do not seem to see happening, but tournaments, and the larger more organised 40K communities see it.
3) The ENTIRE community should get/band together and make a decision on which rules to use/not use, which will help quell the exponential problems.
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Yes, "...everyone just go about your business, so long as you have an opinion on the matter. Everyone else needs to form one."
And I would then add; Note; Pew-Pew not the topic.
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I really got a kick out of this, thank you very much for the streamlining, as I was half asleep and on bedrest when I wrote the original post.
Wildeybeast
03-04-2014, 02:08 PM
Players want the "Game Company" to lead them (answer questions.)
No they don't. If the internet has taught us anything, it's that players want to lead the game company. Which would be fine, except people don't know what they want and as a whole gaming community can agree on nothing. That much I can agree with you on. But that does not mean GW should dictate one style of play. It also undermines your point that we should all unite one way or the other. That simply won't happen.
GW has recognised that gamers want different things, different ways to play and is capitalising on it. Want to field every single model you have without worrying too much about points? Here, have Apocalypse. Really want to re-fight the Horus Heresy? Go for it. Have burning desire to play through the opening stages of a planetary invasion? Knock yourself out with Planetstrike. Variety is the spice of life, people get to play with the bits they want. If you are spending an hour debating which type of game to play, I politely suggest that the issue is not with GW but with you and/or the people you are gaming with.
Tomgar
03-04-2014, 02:10 PM
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3) The ENTIRE community should get/band together and make a decision on which rules to use/not use, which will help quell the exponential problems.
My friends and I enjoy the current release strategy and we love new stuff like the Imperial Knights coming out. It adds more variety to our games. If "The Community" decides not to follow those rules, why should my friends and I be excluded from the wider Warhammer scene simply for playing the game we want to play. Trying to artificially impose some nonsensical and subjective version of what the meta should be (in your eyes) will just exclude people who don't want to play like that. It's contrary to the "play how you want" idea that's been central to Warhammer since its inception.
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Here's a suggestion: why don't we all chill the hell out and play Warhammer the way we wanna play Warhammer? Discuss bones of contention with opponents and come to a consensus if things are really so disorientating and confusing for you. I mean, it's a wargame with toy soldiers, not an intense legal battle.
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Great point,
pack up stuff,
go to location
what rules would you like to play?
discuss/debate for an hour or so
read/check all the rules publications your opponent is going to use, and give all your rules publications you are going to use to your opponent to read/check
discuss Q&A any issues either of you may have
set-up
play
pack up
go home
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Yep, you are right those three added steps are not to much to ask for a game of toy soldiers...
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 02:27 PM
If you are spending an hour debating which type of game to play, I politely suggest that the issue is not with GW but with you and/or the people you are gaming with.
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GW leading was out of context, GW just needs to answer questions. sorry there.
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We need to unite on just a few pages, as it is now, no one is united on anything, except individual tournaments, which in turn have groups following, that is a good thing for the community.
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You have to discuss/debate before any game with a "New" opponent (start-up games are the majority, and the driving force, small garage groups do not have the issues)
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And, yes, it can take an hour easily...
Let alone tracking down what rule publications actually exist, not to mention the Beardy players that own Adobe, that could make the E-rules say whatever they choose to an unsuspecting player ROFL, I am kidding here...
But you get the jist, it is a pain, and a waste of time to constantly discuss/debate, why shuffling and playing type 2 is taking over table-tops (That was a MTG reference, which I do not actually play BTW)
RexScarlet
03-04-2014, 02:38 PM
My friends and I enjoy the current release strategy and we love new stuff like the Imperial Knights coming out. It adds more variety to our games. If "The Community" decides not to follow those rules, why should my friends and I be excluded from the wider Warhammer scene simply for playing the game we want to play. Trying to artificially impose some nonsensical and subjective version of what the meta should be (in your eyes) will just exclude people who don't want to play like that. It's contrary to the "play how you want" idea that's been central to Warhammer since its inception.
Thank you, and I understand what you were trying to convey, but;
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Pew-Pew is a sound a laser makes when it shoots, as in; my Sisters Barbie shoots your GI Joe, Pew-Pew...
A Pew-Pew game is NOT the topic means; players can always play however they choose, Pew-Pew...
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Start-up, one-off, and new players are the ones being hurt by the plethora of rules, as no one is agreeing, and many are confused.
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Garage groups (groups of friends) are usually never affected.
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Wildeybeast
03-04-2014, 03:16 PM
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GW leading was out of context, GW just needs to answer questions. sorry there.
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We need to unite on just a few pages, as it is now, no one is united on anything, except individual tournaments, which in turn have groups following, that is a good thing for the community.
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You have to discuss/debate before any game with a "New" opponent (start-up games are the majority, and the driving force, small garage groups do not have the issues)
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And, yes, it can take an hour easily...
Let alone tracking down what rule publications actually exist, not to mention the Beardy players that own Adobe, that could make the E-rules say whatever they choose to an unsuspecting player ROFL, I am kidding here...
But you get the jist, it is a pain, and a waste of time to constantly discuss/debate, why shuffling and playing type 2 is taking over table-tops (That was a MTG reference, which I do not actually play BTW)
It is a bit more of an issue with start/pick up games, but not that much. People first getting into the game are going to come in with the core rule set, then progress onto other things when they are good and ready. Whether it's through a GW store, an indy or a friend, no gamer worthy of the name is going to chuck a noob straight into a game of planetsrike with super heavies and fortifications.
I appreciate your concerns, but I really don't think it is the issue you are worried it is. The community isn't united behind one type of game because of apathy or ignorance, but because they don't want to be. People like being able to do different things and most people welcome the myriad new types of game. If you don't like them, you don't have to play them, or buy the stuff. The internet really would be up in arms if either GW or some 'community leaders' tried to impose one particular play style and associated costs on people.
daboarder
03-04-2014, 03:25 PM
The Community needs to get together (this has nothing to do with Pew-Pew);
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This is GW's new idea; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem
Wheat and chessboard problem
Imagine the squares were codices/supplements/FaQs/etc. and the grains of rice/wheat were RULES, now the cause and effect/affect of each rule on another rule is the total.
Pretty simple really, KINSS; Keep It Not Simple Stupid. (see below)
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GW's new approach (6e) is everything including the kitchen sink is allowed, the more rules, the harder for the Interwebs to figure out, and thus BREAK the game (finding good units and lists verses crap units). (Helldrake was a good example of this, crap unit, FaQ drop, great unit)
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Breaking the game; makes GW units/products (crap units) sit on shelves and collect dust (= no sales).
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GW's old approach was every other edition;
Make bad units in the game great in the new edition.
Make great units in the game bad in the new edition.
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But the Interwebs were able to adjust and break the new edition/game in about a year (Fantasy 8e), and when a new book dropped, 30 days or less the Interwebs broke that also, so GW is seeing a slump in sales, and seeing product/stock that does not move. (Chaos Spawn was a good example of this, as Spawn were voted worst unit in both Fantasy and 40K, but now in 6e, they are good).
So, now we have GW dropping tons of rules, that are constantly changing the game, and the community is arguing up a storm, if to allow the rules or not, if players should or should not have copies of rules or not, models, blah, blah.
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So, if GW does release a 7e (or 6.1e), it will be in an attempt to wrestle control back from the Interwebs, and to force the community to use everything including the kitchen sink, because it will ALL be in a Main rulebook, as opposed to now, with supplements/extra scenario books/FW allowed/Fortification in box rules/etc. which are an option that are not in the main rulebook, and big tournaments and communities are saying no way to them.
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On the entire chessboard there would be 264 − 1 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice/wheat, weighing 461,168,602,000 metric tons, which would be a heap of rice larger than Mount Everest. This is around 1,000 times the global production of rice in 2010 (464,000,000 metric tons).[7]
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Stop arguing and agree, Community, Indy Game Stores, and Tournaments get together!
Make a stand either for or against everything including the kitchen sink.
Making two types of Tournaments was a great start, now spread that to all Tournaments of all sizes in all Venues (local Tournaments), stop being individuals, and get together and make a stand.
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Stop being Rats to the GW Piper...
Note; Pew-Pew is not the subject.
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If that really is GW's goal then,
1) they're pretty bad at it, most of the new releases have few permutations (NOT A NEGATIVE STATEMENT!)
2) They are underestimating the processing power of the collective community. Its not a single person trying to solve the "efficiency" problem GW would be trying to present, its more like a million.
Denzark
03-04-2014, 05:36 PM
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Yes, but the community has more influence and insight than GW on fair play (and time constraints, etc.)
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News, I think I forgot to put 7e (6.1e) on my original post, but it is really about the vomiting of rules onto the community at an alarming rate.
Firstly, I disagree that the community has more influence - no evidence and if it did the situation you are describing would not exist. Second, more insight? See other threads where people are discussing whether or not the sheer amount of rules is the great leveller - if you play non-modified, you have to take a reasonably all-comers list or risk the D smashing your star-list.
Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?
Never happy eh?
SON OF ROMULOUS
03-04-2014, 09:34 PM
but seriously think about it we just spent 5 pages complaining that you want other people to make a decision for you as to how to play 40k.... does that make any sense to you what so ever? here is an idea look to your local area and see who wants to play what and that will dictate what you can and cannot play. my local meta doesn't care we use forge world we use suppliments data slates escalation and strong hold.... its easy you come bring nn army you can game or you can choose to not game... i like having deision.. hell im about to roder forge world eldar in exchange for the magnatization of my lucius pattern warhound which i will be using and if you don't want to play against it guess what.... you don't someone else does... not sure how this is so complicated... the sky is not falling we finally have absolute freedom and you sheep are panicing because there is no sheppard to tend to the flock... seriously look at the LVO and Torrent of fire both were very sucessful events and yet completely different tournaments and from what i've heard they all had fun... jeeze peple is this so hard to contemplate? you want vanilla you can have vanilla you want mint chocolate chip[ you can have mint chocolate chip you want sprinkels you can have sprinkle you want carmel you can have carmel.. so enjoy the diversity. thrive on the idea that each meta will be unique and that there is no one build to rule them all. everyone and i mean everyone has a chance at vicotry savor it... for the love of god or go line up behind the horses and walk into the glue factory becuase i am sick of hearing the interwebs cry and whine. 90% of the crap on here is your complaints sheesh stop being sheep and figure it out for yourselves.
DarkLink
03-04-2014, 10:59 PM
Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?
Never happy eh?
When so many of the rules are so shoddy. There's already half a dozen ambiguous rules questions regarding Knight Titans buzzing around that will need an FAQ (which GW won't give us), the Legion of the Damned codex auto-loses turn 1 if you don't have allies because they were too lazy to do much more than copy/paste their rules out of the SM codex. A high quantity of quality rules, which is achievable, would be great. Lots of crappy rules is cool, we're getting something at least, but there will be complaints, and GW will deserve that criticism.
Learn2Eel
03-05-2014, 03:29 AM
(Helldrake was a good example of this, crap unit, FaQ drop, great unit)
I'll not bother with the rest of this....charade....but I will highlight this one part. The Heldrake was already a very strong unit even before the FAQ, just one that wasn't necessarily over-powered or broken. The FAQ was what really stuffed it up though by making it ignore the usual limitations that other flyers suffer from, plus the buff to Vector Strikes.
Charon
03-05-2014, 03:50 AM
Firstly, I disagree that the community has more influence - no evidence and if it did the situation you are describing would not exist. Second, more insight? See other threads where people are discussing whether or not the sheer amount of rules is the great leveller - if you play non-modified, you have to take a reasonably all-comers list or risk the D smashing your star-list.
Lastly, this 'vomiting of rules' - most people were whinging about the relase schedule. Now 6+ codexes in a year is bad?
Never happy eh?
There are lots of '"non-star lists/armies" which already had a medicore/bad standing. They also get smashed. Even more now. What did they do to deserve it? Or is it more a case of "hey your army sucked before D and now it sucks even more. Not to big of a change for you guys"
Also releasing rules in a faster pace is nice. IF they have QUALITY. Currently there are so much flawed rules around which never do get any clarification. Auto lose on LOTD without allies, many cases of RAI vs RAW.
Yes in short I dislike waiting half a year for my new bike. But I take the waiting time GLADLY if the alternative is a bike with parts missing I have to rig myself somehow knowing that the manufacturer simply doesnt care.
My Eldar Jetbike sprues say 1992... they are not the fastes with updating either... unless of course you play space marines.
daboarder
03-05-2014, 04:07 AM
There are lots of '"non-star lists/armies" which already had a medicore/bad standing. They also get smashed. Even more now. What did they do to deserve it? Or is it more a case of "hey your army sucked before D and now it sucks even more. Not to big of a change for you guy
This is the case and a good example of much of the hypocrisy in the community. So mamy people who look for any fluff justification or claim nerfs and removal of units is for " game balance" are the first to cry fowl when the boots on the other foot.
Mr Mystery
03-05-2014, 05:04 AM
When so many of the rules are so shoddy. There's already half a dozen ambiguous rules questions regarding Knight Titans buzzing around that will need an FAQ (which GW won't give us), the Legion of the Damned codex auto-loses turn 1 if you don't have allies because they were too lazy to do much more than copy/paste their rules out of the SM codex. A high quantity of quality rules, which is achievable, would be great. Lots of crappy rules is cool, we're getting something at least, but there will be complaints, and GW will deserve that criticism.
Rules questions before anyone has really had a chance to read the relevant Codex?
Fancy that!
Charon
03-05-2014, 05:24 AM
Rules questions before anyone has really had a chance to read the relevant Codex?
Fancy that!
Valid Point. Now what about the rules questions where we have a relevent codex over 6 Months now and still have no answer? I know... this is probably irrelevant as it doesnt suit your discussion style.
Mr Mystery
03-05-2014, 05:33 AM
Valid Point. Now what about the rules questions where we have a relevent codex over 6 Months now and still have no answer? I know... this is probably irrelevant as it doesnt suit your discussion style.
Depends what the questions are, and whether or not they're caused by, erm.....creative reading
As I'm at work, don't have my books to hand, though I do keep up to date.
Charon
03-05-2014, 06:03 AM
Thttp://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse
If you buy a car and the breaks dont work its not the manufacturers fault...
Houserules are nice and obviously somewhat important. And after I houseruled some stuff with my friends and go into my local club I somehow enforce my opinion (houserules are just that) on every possible game partner.
"I wanna try my new Knight...."
"Nah no superheavies."
"But they are my new army and they are in the rules..."
"Not in my rules dude, not in my rules..."
Seems like a fun afternoon.
Mr Mystery
03-05-2014, 06:09 AM
Which is why the golden rule is not to be an arse about things. Indeed, it's a bit of a life long golden rule that can be applied to all manner of things throughout life. Except when trying to poop. Then being an arse is actually quite useful.
Houserules, Tournament Rules etc have been part of the game since, well, forever.
GW have now just given us more variety, and when played in that spirit, pop goes the meta. Which for me, is a great thing. For you? I don't know, I'm not familiar with your gaming preference. Perhaps you want everything to be strictly Codex Only with no Superheavies, Allies or Fortifications? Guess what? That's fine too. That's your call. If we were to arrange a game together, we'd have to come to a mutually agreeable compromise.
If anyone demands I play their way, and their way alone, I won't really bother, I suspect they're probably not that great of an opponent or indeed person.
Wolfshade
03-05-2014, 06:14 AM
If you buy a car and the breaks dont work its not the manufacturers fault...
Well that all depends if the brakes are supposed to work, the analogy is abit tortueous.
The issue comes down to a perception of balance, which in recent months has been discussed to death, which is very much in the eye of the beholder, you only have to look at the number of contradictory balance fix mods that are out there for simple things like computer games, before we start going it to much more open world and complex wargames.
Charon
03-05-2014, 06:55 AM
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse
As a customer who spent lots of money on so called "rulebooks" I dont really see it as MY resposibility to work on fixing a problem THEIR flawed system has.
If the rules where for free, no complaint. But charging around € 40 for a book containing rule gaps and spelling mistakes AND refusing to clarify is no customer service.
Mr Mystery
03-05-2014, 06:59 AM
As a customer who spent lots of money on so called "rulebooks" I dont really see it as MY resposibility to work on fixing a problem THEIR flawed system has.
If the rules where for free, no complaint. But charging around € 40 for a book containing rule gaps and spelling mistakes AND refusing to clarify is no customer service.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4707014839436751&pid=1.7
Me, I buy every book (except Blood Angels, which I missed, and until these sorts of discussions, fail to remember I missed).
And guess what? I don't see even half the apparent rules discrepancies people bang on about.
eldargal
03-05-2014, 07:00 AM
As a customer who spent lots of money on so called "rulebooks" I dont really see it as MY resposibility to work on fixing a problem THEIR flawed system has.
If the rules where for free, no complaint. But charging around € 40 for a book containing rule gaps and spelling mistakes AND refusing to clarify is no customer service.
Because the problems are often subjective and due to differing interpretations, the issue may be the wording but not the rule itself. You aren't given a product that doesn't work (usually) you re given a product that is open to interpretation. If you can't decide on an interpretation that suits your gaming club then that is your problem,not GWs. If you can' even be bothered making the attempt that is your responsibility, not GWs. GW strive to produce models and a ruleset focused on narrative play and they do so very well. If there is something about their approach you do not like then you either find a ruleset you prefer and move on or fix it. Whining about it pointless.
Example: I was deeply dismayed about how Howling Banshees were nerfed to **** in the latest codex. I hoped GW would fix it, they have not. do you see me moaning and whining about Howling Banshees now? No. I sat down with my games club and houseruled them because it's my damned hobby and I'm not afraid to take responsibility for it.
Denzark
03-05-2014, 07:18 AM
As a customer who spent lots of money on so called "rulebooks" I dont really see it as MY resposibility to work on fixing a problem THEIR flawed system has.
If the rules where for free, no complaint. But charging around € 40 for a book containing rule gaps and spelling mistakes AND refusing to clarify is no customer service.
Maybe you should fix your tone first.
Why do you blindly ***** money on something you feel is 'flawed'?
Arkhan Land
03-05-2014, 10:41 AM
I think a lot of issues people seem to be putting forward here revolve around two issues 1) problems with rules/publications and 2) finding common ground to choose battle types/units/games
most of these problems can be relieved by the presence of one competant store organizer (not even neccesarily a manager) someone who has weathered at least one edition change and isnt so worried about their own playing/modeling blog that they spend time making sure games go well and people are paired up properly. Also problem two is also well alleviated by stores that have real specific events by day. My local has specific days for Combat Patrol and Apoc, 40k day is whatever happens (aside from massive games that gum up tables for hours)
first half of the post i stand by fully this next half is going to be a little more out there...
From doing sound/touring/playing shows all the time, I can tell you, there are many people who invest far more hundreds of dollars In guitars and amps convinced they will play "good shows" and "get momentum" to "do something cool"
the truth of the matter is that most bands GO NOWHERE but none of these people ever ***** and moan (there are of course exceptions who will share with me some offhand remark about how empty the room is on a Saturday night, or even compared to the band that played before them)
If you think there is anything at all, i mean anything at all unique to the way 40k players approach the same dilemna with their own personal record of wins/losses yr dead wrong.
its a true game... not some victory story driven game with multiple favorable outcomes all conveniently on your XBOX Playstation or N64.
Also need I remind you that little war is good and all but what it represents, Big War, is a nasty horrific affair. Im in the middle of re-watching KB's Civil War and my god, is that **** crazy. Hornets Nest at Shiloh... Bjeesus whats so FUN about this anyways :p
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