Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Mr Mystery]

Evening all.

So this is something I want to discuss with the community at large. And it stems from a common complaint amongst Chaos Space Marine players, namely that they just don't have the same spangly toys their non-heretical brothers get to play with.

From the outset, I shall lay my personal bias clear - I feel that this is the correct state of affairs. As such, please do not consider my following rationale to be unbiased. If you disagree, then join in.

To kick off, let's start at the beginning (always an appropriate place).....

A Space Marine Chapter is considerably more than just 1,000ish genhanced combat nutters in really hard armour with lots of dakka. It's also it's base of operations, and untold Chapter Serfs, Servitors, and in some cases entire worlds of potential recruits. Other Chapters, most notably the Ultramarines are responsible for entire systems.

They are also involved with (in wildly varying degrees) the Adeptus Mechanicus, PDFs, The Inquisition etc, which we can probably very roughly lump together under 'the rest of the Imperium'. These links provide raw materials, recruits, ammo, food, drink, fuel, Serfs and Emperor knows what else in the way of support.

In short, they are independent in action, but very much part of the extended web of the Imperium. And it's this web of co-support that allows them to continue to function, including repairs, replacement war materials etc.


So, very rough outlining of how any given Chapter fits into the larger Imperium.

Then of course, we have renegades of varying stripes. I'll begin with the Traitor Legions.

Well, what were they? Bloody enormous is the first port of call. The FW HH books make that abundantly clear. They were so numerous, and so well equipped they fought their wars in a style more commonly seen with the Imperial Guard.

And they went Heretic.

And they took horrendous losses. From the outset of Istvaan, past their defeat at Terra, to the scourging that followed, their cohesive strengths were shattered. Not only in (super)man power, but also their War Machines. During their flight into the Eye of Terror, they were harried all the way, preventing any chances for concentrated repair efforts.

Now, when faced with an ongoing, fighting retreat, what makes the most sense? Salvage and repair the most shootykillbang stuff, or putting your resources into maintaining the easier, more robust stuff? Like Land Raiders and common Rhino variants? After all, you could spend (numbers out my bottom here, for lack of decent reference) three days repairing that Land Speeder's anti-grav unit, or three days patching up three Rhinos? Which is more critical to keeping your forces fighting?

Then comes the aftermath. The Legions dissolved (barring the Thousand Sons, but then they had much bigger issues), fought amongst their own Legion and each other, adding to their losses, and removing what little formal organisation would have survived. They didn't exactly have time to nip back to their Home Worlds to empty out their armouries either.

All in all, not the fearsome fighting forces they once were. Suitable recruits are likely difficult to come by if they are concerned with avoiding geneseed degeneration (they may not be, to my memory, exactly how CSM recruit new members, outside of fresh renegades is fairly unclear). As for replacement weapons, vehicles and ammo? They no doubt have some capacity within the Warband, but likely nothing too fancy. The real armourers are the Dark Mechanicus, who have their price. Again, expediency comes to the fore here. Do you cough up to have a couple of Land Speeders patched up, or use the same currency (slaves and that I'd imagine) to get your Land Raider repaired, along with a Predator or two, on account they're more robust, and overall a lot easier to repair?

And now, now for recent Renegades.

For the most part, it's apparently fairly rare that an entire Chapter goes rogue. More common for such things to happen at individual, squad or company level. Whilst there are the odd exception (oh hi, Astral Claws and Chums!), this means renegade Space Marines head off without any kind of established supply routes or logistical support. They'll have a ship, probably a Strike Cruiser, occasionally a Battle Barge, but not the entirety of their Chapter's armoury.

And where do they go? Well, wherever they want I guess. That's a huge part of going rogue isn't it? Freedom of choice. Yet sooner or later, they'll need resupply. Stuff taken in battle is all well and good, but doesn't provide safe harbour or repairs, just materials and ammo etc. One alternative would be to plunge into the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom, seeking fellow renegades. Except, those fellow renegades aren't exactly shy about just taking all your cool stuff.

The stuff they took with them? Should have some kind of repair capability on board their ships, but again, like the Traitor Legions before them, there's genuine choices to be made. Do you continually maintain stuff even the Ad Mech don't really understand all that well (anti-grav plating, for instance), or that which by it's nature wears out quickly (Assault Cannon. Massive ammo requirement, fresh set of barrels after each engagements, constant maintenance of the motor assembly), or do you instead choose to focus on your more robust bits of equipment, things which can be readily scavenged following any strike against Imperial forces?

As for ATSKNF? Well, that's all well and good, when you're still 'benefiting' from your psycho-indoctrination. But once you've gone rogue, you've broken your indoctrination. Where once, like a good little Marine, you put The Imperium of Man before yourself, and would readily give your life if it meant victory over Witch/Heretic/Xenos (delete as applicable). But now....it's one for me, and me for myself. Suddenly, you're back to the average human viewpoint of 'sod dying for you matey, I'm offski'. In short, CSM are not as stupid as Loyalist Marines. Their greater independence of thought brings with it a heightened concern for self preservation. What's the point in a glorious last stand if it doesn't achieve anything? Where is the point in victory if you're not around to share in the spoils of war?

In short?

CSM, whether Legionnaires or Brother Baz running off to join the Creepy Circus on his own are very different from Loyalist Marines by their very nature. They don't have the same resources, so maintain different equipment. They've broken their 'Imperial Conditioning', gaining self motivation. The two forces cannot be readily compared in the majority of situation.

Yes, some cases are very different, such as the aforementioned Astral Claws. The Astral Claws should have some kind of mix of chaos and imperial armoury, to represent their more cohesive organisation (Tyrants list from FW is pretty cool!). But the majority? It's a simple matter of expediency. CSM don't have the luxury of stable supply routes and agreements their loyalist brothers do, and would, logically, maintain only that which they absolutely need.

Right, that's my tuppence worth, now over to you. As ever, if you disagree, pipe up. This is a discussion, not a lecture :)

[Charon]

In my opinion this varies from Legion to Legion or Warband to Warband.
Most of the big Legions maintain their own small scale "Imperium" including Forge Worlds. If they didnt not having suff to fix assaultcannons would be the least of their problems.
Titans and Spaceships need even more maintainance and obviously they have the resources to fix them too.

On the other hand. How do Chaos Space Marines even invade a planet? They may not use Thunderhawks. There are no Transport Flyers in the Codex, they obviously have no drop pods and they dont seem to travel through the warp as there are only a few units who are shock troops. They pretty much have to WALK from their Planetkiller Starship in Orbit to the combat site.

But jokes aside.
Not having the same stuff or the same rules is no issue (and even then you still could have the fiendish cannon of pure warp lightning which happens to have the same stats as a assault cannon, or the possessed bumblebee of tzeentch which happens to be a landspeeder). Having fewer options, generally worse gear and worse rules for the same or even more points is an issue.

We can twist and turn the fluff all day. There are BENEFITS of beeing a renegade too. The dark mechanicum for example is not resticted by any moral or religious dogma. They can experiment with infinite energy, AI, daemons,.. all day. And all they achieve is... impressive looking crap?
If self preservance plays any role in the "free" CSM mindset why do they all have a deathwhish and issuing/accepting challenges from Wraithlords and Hive Tyrants?
Where is the point in becoming a dreaded daemon prince if this creepy thing is actually far weaker than the Chaos Lord was before?

I LOVE fluff. But fluff was and is seperate from rules. There is no rule stopping you from using Eldrad Ulthran as the leader of your Alaitoc ranger army. But there is a rule that stops you from using Drop pods as a CSM.

[Denzark]

Not all Chaos Marines (Traitors or renegades) go into the eye. Some of them clart around the imperium's back waters, carving out territory, looting worlds, acting like gods etc. If you think of the Gaunt's Ghosts description of worlds under chaos, he tries to hint at Chaos society - esp in 'The Traitor General' or whatever it is called.

I point this out because there is absolutely no reason why looting, mechanicum slaves, etc could not keep a formation up to speed with their weapons and equipment. So I disagree there. Particularly given Mechanicum - Trebor Mint was sending all the Gucci new kit, which included up to Mk VI, to the Horus legions. As the Eye of Terror warps time, it could all be brand harry-spankers.

As to ATSKNF, good point, I had never considered the effect of a loss of psycho-chemical-indoctrination combined with the Chaplain. However I don't think VoTLW is sufficient to represent someone who has been fighting for 10000 years and knows a few tricks, and is sublimely unfrightened by almost anything that isn't Kharn or Abaddon.

[Kazzigum]

I agree with most of what Mystery is saying. There are no more legions, just warbands. I think this should be embraced by Chaos players, particularly those who favor the supposedly undivided former legions. For example, Alpha Legion may well have originally decided to go their own way, traffic with xenos, reject the Chaos gods and basically decide they they can manipulate everyone else to serve the greater good. Perhaps that was their intent during the Hersey. However, their so secretive, they don't even tell each other everything, with hints that even Alpharius and Omicron withhold info from each other. And that was 10,000 years ago. Despite the background that they did not flee to the Eye of Terror, many of their bases must be in similar warp storms and they must seek out such places for resupply and recruitment as well, at least sometimes. The point is, despite the fact that they believed they were doing the greater good, the Alpha Legion were always being manipulated (likely by Tzeentch), even when they thought they had outwitted the manipulators. By betraying the Imperium, even with supposedly noble purpose, they stepped upon the road to damnation. And 10,000 years of walking that path has surely brought corruption, so despite the fact that many Alpha Legion players seem to think they should be pure and coohesive, the background does not support this. They are as likely to be marked by the Chaos powers as any other former legion. One does not need to worship the Chaos gods to be marked, one only needs to accept the offered power. Just look to the Thousand Sons. They do not worship Tzeentch, in fact most including Ahriman hate him/it. Tzeentch marks them anyway.

The same could be said of all the supposed undivided former legions. The Iron Legion and Night Wings don't worship the Chaos gods? So? They still accept the offered power, traffic with daemons, bind daemons to their war devices, etc. All the original traitor legions are damned and marked by the Chaos powers, it's just their hubris that allows some to believe otherwise.

I'm sure it would make Erebus smile ... if he still had a face.

[DWest]

I think we need to consider motive as well as means-- the traitor Marines, the truly lost and damned traitors, have been corrupted by the Warp pretty thoroughly. It's how they think now. So to my mind, from the sources I've read (mostly Codices, still working on rounding out the novels), the idea that Chaos doesn't have access to the full armory isn't as big a deal-- their mindset makes warp power (Daemon engines, sorcery, etc.) the go-to solution to problems rather than raw tech. Furthermore, paging through say, Imperial Armor 2, you read how few of these special vehicles the Imperium has left, when they have basically the whole of the Chapter's technical support dedicated to keeping them running. Most Chaos groups aren't going to have the kind of infrastructure that a typical Fortress-Monastary possesses (Abbadon's main Black Legion units? Probably. The band of blood-hungry psychos who follow Kharn so they at least know he isn't following *them*? Probably not.)

At this point, however, is where GW's incompetence in game design kicks in. There are a certain set of tools an army needs to do its job (broadly speaking offensive power, defensive countermeasures, improved delivery and board control). Because everything GW does operates on Rule of Cool first, and nothing else second, we have a somewhat coherent argument from the standpoint of the fluff as to why Chaos has what it has, but we don't have a coherent set of rules making those units do what needs to be done, and *that* is what I think drives most of the trouble; you have the traitor forces, whether from the original Heresy or a later fall, who were represented as a complete, functional army (in both rules and fluff) with everything they need to get the job done, but the moment they actually change books, they suddenly don't have a lot of that.

tl;dr- the current Codex: CSM doesn't contain a proper army in it, and people are wondering where that proper army disappeared to.

[Nabterayl]

I point this out because there is absolutely no reason why looting, mechanicum slaves, etc could not keep a formation up to speed with their weapons and equipment.
I think there's a big difference between looting and fief-building. Keeping a formation supplied when every action requires the expenditure of supplies does not seem like a sustainable plan, especially since space marines are deliberately geared against supply efficiency. Expending a bunch of supplies in a more or less one-time action to conquer a place seems more plausible to me. Looting no, except as a supplement in specific cases. Conquest yes.


As to ATSKNF, good point, I had never considered the effect of a loss of psycho-chemical-indoctrination combined with the Chaplain. However I don't think VoTLW is sufficient to represent someone who has been fighting for 10000 years and knows a few tricks, and is sublimely unfrightened by almost anything that isn't Kharn or Abaddon.
I definitely agree that ATSKNF represents space marine Stockholm Syndrome.

As for VoTLW, though ... I dunno. One thing I've never been clear on is just how many 10,000 year old marines there are. In the normal course of operations, 90% of a loyalist space marine chapter is KIA within a century or two. That's just part of the job. Now, I know that time flows at the speed of plot in the Eye, but ... there have been a thousand centuries since the Heresy, enough to kill several hundred thousand space marines per chapter. That's a lot of dead marines.

If traitor legionnaires collectively maintained something like the normal pace of operations for a loyalist marine chapter, then it seems a virtual certainty that almost all of them are dead, and most "veterans of the Long War" are in fact relative newcomers. If they maintain less than the normal pace of operations, then there may be more Heresy-vintage originals running around in the legions, but they haven't been subjected to the soul-crushing pace of high-intensity combat ops gives loyalists their edge, so we have a different legitimate reason to question just how hairy-arsed they should be.

Either way, I think the answer is "more hairy-arsed than a regular marine, but nothing like the actual veterans of the Heresy like Ahriman, Kharn, Typhus, or Abaddon." So VoTLW doesn't seem all that far off to me.

[cobra6]

Mr. Mystery, I must say 'well done'; I disagree with your premise, but your argument is well stated and compelling.

For my part, to echo the above posts, the breakdown is where the background meets the tabletop. Charon is correct that Chaos Marines, of all stripes, cost essentially the same as Loyalist Marines who do still retain all that "Imperial brainwashing"- and that brainwashing is nothing but beneficial on the tabletop, bar none period full stop. You are never, ever worse off having ATSKNF than having nothing - so Chaos Marines should cost considerably less. What the Chaos guys *do* have is their all-too-often self destructive challenge rule, which suicidally flies in the face of the very self-preservation instinct you rightly point out they would often have. Ironically, maybe Chaos should be able to truly, completely ignore challenges, just laughing at the heroic enemy blowhard while they kill away in a businesslike manner; if an enemy issues a challenge, the Chaos unit and any accompanying IC can ignore it for no penalty. THAT would be a tabletop benefit worthy of a points cost!

And the vehicles and wargear?

The 40K background hammers away again and again and again that the Imperium is a hidebound, moribund cesspool of stagnation, where "something new" is religious heresy worthy only of excruciating death. On the other hand, the forces of Chaos are utterly unimpeded by this rigid adherence to entropy (except Nurgle), and can conduct any mad scientist experiment they feel like.

And yet, every Imperial codex release produces new vehicles and weapons - not just new models that are retconned into the background, but new background about how newly developed vehicles and tech are being disseminated across Imperial forces! This flies in the face of the background, so what gives - other than selling new kits, of course? And on the other hand, the unfettered evil geniuses of the Dark Mechanicus can't even strap some any other weapon than a TL-lascannon on a Land Raider? No Khorne Berzerkers have 'suggested' they build a new variant that fits more than 10 dudes? And why would they say no to that request - they have no dogma to adhere to, UNLIKE the Imperial Mechanicus who seem to crank out new LR variants by the week. Why is the dogmatic Imperium flush with new gear, and the innovative forces of Chaos are the ones 'fossilized in amber' so to speak?

They can't maintain their old 'Speeders? Got it. Why can't they develop an assault vehicle Rhino variant? That'd be easy to build and maintain from a background standpoint, would be distinct from the Imperials from a rules standpoint, would sell a lot of models from a business standpoint, and would be *cool* from a modeling standpoint. So again, what gives?

And finally, as Charon astutely pointed out, exactly how do Chaos Marines get planetside from orbit..?

[daboarder]

Yeah sorry mystery, your whole thing reads as "my justification for chaos being ****ty marines"


And they took horrendous losses. From the outset of Istvaan, past their defeat at Terra, to the scourging that followed, their cohesive strengths were shattered. Not only in (super)man power, but also their War Machines. During their flight into the Eye of Terror, they were harried all the way, preventing any chances for concentrated repair efforts.


Everyone took tremendous loses, I mean Istvaan was a thing right?

Quote CSM codex:
The imperium was in tatters, and as the traitor legions retreated to the eye of terror......



Then comes the aftermath. The Legions dissolved (barring the Thousand Sons, but then they had much bigger issues), fought amongst their own Legion and each other, adding to their losses, and removing what little formal organisation would have survived. They didn't exactly have time to nip back to their Home Worlds to empty out their armouries either.


Done to death, while some of the legions split the majority of them retain their primarchs and still operate under unified leadership. Even the most shattered legion (world eaters at skalathrax) has been reforged by angron during crusade that resulted in the first war on Armageddon.



For the most part, it's apparently fairly rare that an entire Chapter goes rogue. More common for such things to happen at individual, squad or company level. Whilst there are the odd exception (oh hi, Astral Claws and Chums!), this means renegade Space Marines head off without any kind of established supply routes or logistical support. They'll have a ship, probably a Strike Cruiser, occasionally a Battle Barge, but not the entirety of their Chapter's armoury.

Again not entirely correct
Quote: CSM codex:

The traitor legions are not the only space marines to fall to chaos. Each millenium, dozens of disillusioned or power hungry chapters defect, just as horus did.

Also RE: the Abyssal Crusade. 30 chapters charge into the eye of terror, that doesn't go the way the imperium thought it would. Guess what comes out the other side?

Furthermore, there are examples of chapters that recruit from the worlds of the imperium or the eye of terror (re: blood gorgons)



All in all, not the fearsome fighting forces they once were. Suitable recruits are likely difficult to come by if they are concerned with avoiding geneseed degeneration (they may not be, to my memory, exactly how CSM recruit new members, outside of fresh renegades is fairly unclear). As for replacement weapons, vehicles and ammo? They no doubt have some capacity within the Warband, but likely nothing too fancy. The real armourers are the Dark Mechanicus, who have their price. Again, expediency comes to the fore here. Do you cough up to have a couple of Land Speeders patched up, or use the same currency (slaves and that I'd imagine) to get your Land Raider repaired, along with a Predator or two, on account they're more robust, and overall a lot easier to repair?



The stuff they took with them? Should have some kind of repair capability on board their ships, but again, like the Traitor Legions before them, there's genuine choices to be made.

Sorry but this is also inaccurate.

BRB

The Chaos Space Marines are a fearsome foe. They have a
Space Marine's abilities, along with his gear of war and, since
turning to the darker powers, many also now bear power l
mutations or gifts from their patron Chaos Gods, which aid
them in battle. They still carry the same weapons they bore
in their service to the Emperor, sometimes dating back 10,000
years and now washed over by the corrupting powers of the
Warp.

As for the hogwash about supply, there are numerous instances of daemoic forge worlds and the like in the background. Sure they may have to make pacts with the dark mechanicum or worse, but that doesn't mean they are poorly supplied, its no worse than teh pacts, agreements and oaths that exist between loyalist chapters and the various political factions within the imperium.

For further evidence RE: The Sabbat worlds, a vast well organized industry supporting a chaos warmachine. as in Chaos Industrial power that rivals that of the imperium, and thats only one example



As for ATSKNF? Well, that's all well and good, when you're still 'benefiting' from your psycho-indoctrination. But once you've gone rogue, you've broken your indoctrination. Where once, like a good little Marine, you put The Imperium of Man before yourself, and would readily give your life if it meant victory over Witch/Heretic/Xenos (delete as applicable). But now....it's one for me, and me for myself. Suddenly, you're back to the average human viewpoint of 'sod dying for you matey, I'm offski'. In short, CSM are not as stupid as Loyalist Marines. Their greater independence of thought brings with it a heightened concern for self preservation. What's the point in a glorious last stand if it doesn't achieve anything? Where is the point in victory if you're not around to share in the spoils of war?


This is probably the only part of what you've written that I agree with and is supported in the background. Of course just because they are not indoctrinated to Know no fear, doesn't mean that the way their morale is handled in game isn't a poor mechanic.

[Nabterayl]

On the other hand, the forces of Chaos are utterly unimpeded by this rigid adherence to entropy (except Nurgle), and can conduct any mad scientist experiment they feel like.
So ... I disagree with the idea that Mechanicus doctrine precludes the development of new tech. It never has - witness the example of the Immolator, for instance, which is a very old vehicle in real-world 40K terms. That's a perfect example of what it looks like when the Mechanicus invents something new.

But I also disagree with the idea that the Dark Mechanicum threw off their doctrine when they rejected the Emperor. The difference between the science that we are used to and the science that the Mechanicus does is not religion. The difference is the belief that knowledge is finite, and that in the distant past mankind had more of it (possibly all of it) than we have today. What reason do we have to believe that the Dark Mechanicum reject this basic tenet? Their split from the Mechanicus was based on a rejection of the Emperor as Omnissiah, not a rejection of the commonly held, incorrect beliefs about the Dark Age of Technology.

Whether you think the Emperor knows everything there is to know or not, if you still think that mankind basically discovered everything there was to know about 20,000 years ago, your science will progress along essentially the same lines as the Adeptus Mechanicus'. Except that it'll progress slower, because you have access to less Scripture to pore over, and crazier, because you're supplementing Scripture with visions of chaos.


And finally, as Charon astutely pointed out, exactly how do Chaos Marines get planetside from orbit..?
Same way as the Guard does, I expect.

[daboarder]

or in dread claws, drop pods, storm ravens, thunderhawks and warp magic.

I threw your post up on BnC Mystery, and some of the replies are pretty good.
They are usually more eloquent than I am.

In a way he is right, and in a way, oh so wrong. Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marines. They are the mirror darkly. And especially with Daemon being their own Codex now, there should definitely be a mirroring of the two forces. And for a bit of this, we can see this mirroring.

Marines for Marines. Helbrutes for Dreadnoughts. Land Raider for Land Raider.

The "problem" comes in when this mirroring gets skewed. Loyalists get a fancy way to Deep Strike. Chaos does not. Loyalists get Chapter tactics and supplements. Chaos does not.

When it comes to certain things like assaualt cannons and other gear that the CSM would have logically taken with them, there is the common excuse "The Traitors and Renegades can't maintain whatever they take with them." Newsflash: there is an organization called "the Dark Mechanicum". Not to mention only the warp knows how many individual rogue hereteks, forgeworlds and breakaway machine cults. The lore is constantly filled with warbands striking deals with these organizations to secure services and resources. And yet, we see none of it. A common example was the kai gun. It was only produced by one forgeworld. Its existence in many armies was an example of this trading for technology. The Planetkiller. Scratch that, the Planetkillers are evidence that Chaos not only maintain its technology, but innovate and create new technology. And yet where is this in the Codex?

"Well what about A D-B's Night Lords? They had it rough." They were also an undersized warband who had a habit of pissing off influential people. They were afraid of going into the Eye before Crythe. Sometime before Blood Reaver, they had already pissed off Huron. And I doubt killing one of his Champions, stealing a ship from him and not to mention kidnapping from his own slave chattel probably hasn't helped the mood any. No :cuss they barely have any resources.

To me, a successful Chaos Space Marine Codex should allow for two things, the Traitor/Renegade Marines who associate with Chaos but have none of the boons(Talos and co, but with the option to be better equipped with contemporary gear) and then the Chaos Marines who fully revel in the warp ad the gifts it bestows.

If you want to play a run down warband, cool. Just don't take as many options. That does not mean there shouldn't be any options.

We don't have to have Drop Pods. Just give us a point-for-point equivalent. Warp portals are a thing. Put those in there. We don't have to have Storm Ravens. Just give us a daemonic flying transport. There is plenty of fluff. We don't need Chapter/Legion tactics. But we do have Raptor Cults and other examples of "specialized warfare" that should get represented, albeit with a Chaos twist. We don't need ATSKNF. But you know what? Some of us have lived in Hell/Hel/Tartaros/Sheol for 10,000 years*. We've seen things man.

We are The Mirror Darkly. That is all we ask for, to be the Mirror. Not the broken shard of glass that reflects part of your face and crumples in the breeze.

EDIT: I ain't saying we should be Marines with spikes. What I am saying is that we should be Chaos Marines.


It ignores the Dark Mechanicus for one.

If loyalist Marines have all their toys because the Mechanicus builds them for them (and trains their techmarines), then Chaos Marines have access to the Dark Mechanicus for the same.

Forge Worlds getting sucked into the warp and all that.

It's not like Chaos don't have Power/Terminators or Bolters... (I really don't get the whole TL-Bolter / Stormbolter evolution though)

Then there's Warp based technology to use and rely on when your supplies of Bolter shells grow thin. I don't think the Noise Marines care much about Bolter shells.

If Chapters can go Rogue, then so can Forge Worlds. Or bargains can be struck with Xeno scum, if you're no longer a blind servant of the Corpse God.



Hmm. Some of the arguments that guy makes doesn't really make sense.

Yes we retreated from terra, yes we were harrassed all the way. Yes we still have STC platforms from wich to construct vehicles with, yes we have the factories to make them in. Yes we have an abundance of slaves to repair and perform maintenance on them. Some don't need maintenace because they are daemonically possessed...

Imperium of man:
Marines
Mechanicus
Human serfs

Chaos:
Marines
Dark Mechanicus
Slaves, cultists & mutants
Daemons (including possessed machinery and such)


Contrary to common belief, there are planets in the eye. There are people living in the eye, yes they are mutants, barbarians and chaos worshippers, but they live there. They are slaves of course, under their astartes or daemon masters, and raiding parties out of the eye gather more and more slaves all the time because the attrition is rather high (sacrifices and such).

A loyalist space marine needs maintenance on his armour, a chaos space marine's armour grows to be a part of himself and repairs itself when needed with the blessings of the chaos gods. Sure, assault cannons and such are hard to maintain in the eye, but proven tech such as LR variants, drop pods and razorbacks, why would they be too difficult to maintain in the eye?

And an OLD OLD post from the mouth of A D-B himself.
One that shows evidence that Forgeworlds, pacts and supplies exist, and CSM's aren't just a bunch of decaying raiders. They build territory, empires and industry


For the sake of argument, let's say you're Helikaon the Mourner, a Word Bearer Chaplain in the Heresy. You're part of the command team, with Captain Vilus (maybe he has a personal title like Archon, Consul, Warleader, or whatever else), essentially co-leading the Company, within the Chapter, within the Host of several Chapters gathered together. Or just one Chapter. Or just half of several Chapters banded together for a few months, years, decades, or centuries. Maybe all of your Chapter/Company remnants form a Host for convenience, or because Lorgar ordered it, or you're part of the same Crusade Fleet, or you just owe each other bonds of absolute brotherhood. But let's focus on you, Vilus, and the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, named after one of the constellations above Colchis.

Maybe on the tabletop, you're a Chaos Lord, or a Dark Apostle, or something the rules don't have a place for, because they're merely the basic skeleton structure. Let's move on to what matters.

Time passes in the Eye of Terror, after the Sons of Horus lost you the war by running when their primarch fell. You spend a lot of that time fighting the Sons of Horus because they're weak, and getting weaker. You kill them and take their ships, their worlds, their fortresses, their equipment. You make deals with worlds settled by the Dark Mechanicum. Other times, you invade those worlds, for supplies. Other times, the Mechanicum breaks its oaths to you, screwing you over, because that particular forge, that particular leader, or that particular world had a better offer from a stronger warband. Or because they secretly hated you. Or because of reasons you never find out.

You raid the Imperium a lot, for vengeance, for supplies, for slaves, for territory, and to teach them the truth behind reality. Maybe you do it for the glory of the Dark Gods, to please them, or maybe you do it for yourself, to make life better, easier, or to humiliate a rival who lost a fight against that world or fleet in times past. Maybe you do it because there's pressure from several Aspiring Champions and squad leaders that are inciting the troops into believing you're weak, and should be removed from your position as co-leader. You need a show of strength. Soldiers need victories.

You make alliances with other warbands from other Legions, either to group together against a serious enemy, or because you share territory and genuinely consider yourself allies. You break some of those promises, because it suits you better to kill those former allies and take their land/resources/ships. You stick to some of the others for all time, because they're your Gods-damned brothers in arms, and you'd die for each other. Only, in 6,000 years of living in Hell; fighting daemons; and fighting the Imperium, you betray them because you learn they're about to launch a surprise attack on your stronghold, or your fleet. Only, maybe they weren't, and you were deceived by a third party. Or maybe they were, and they win, and you have to cut and run with half your resources and manpower squandered in a war you never saw coming. Much of the time, no matter what happens, you fight a lot of other warbands from other Legions. That's life in the Eye of Terror. For every alliance you make, there are half a dozen battles.

Sometimes, perhaps often, you come into contact with other Word Bearer Companies/Chapters/Hosts persecuting their own wars. Sometimes you join together, share news of the Legion's movements, and are the best of blood brothers. Other times, it isn't so simple. These Word Bearers worship a different cult and creed to you, and your beliefs aren't exactly gelling smoothly. There are as many cults and paths of Chaos faith as there are preachers and worshippers, and just as real world religions and branches of the same religion come into conflict, it happens with Chaos faithful, on a much, much, much larger and more frequent scale. Maybe they force aspects of Tzeentch worship you think makes them weak (maybe they use lore of the Change God to read the hearts of their enemies, which relies too much on Chaos rather than being strong on your own), and they think the way you see nobility in Khorne makes you deluded. They think you take one aspect of your faith too far, or not far enough. You think the same of them. You both have evidence of why the other warband is weak, because no group is ever without flaw. Maybe a tense negotiation between your leaders on neutral ground becomes a gunfight. Maybe your fleets meeting by accident becomes an all-out void war. Maybe you reconcile your differences in the name of the Word, and become brothers for 3,000 years, either answering each other's calls for aid, or even joining into a new Host, of two Chapters bonded by absolute loyalty. Maybe you become a new Host of a whole new Chapter, to reflect your new unity. Maybe that alliance lasts for a year. Maybe it lasts until the end of time.

Other times, other Word Bearer warbands call to you for aid. Sometimes you answer, because you're the same Legion, damn it, and that matters. But sometimes you don't answer, because if that Host gets butchered, you can move in and claim their territory and resources much easier. Other times, you answer their call for help because you owe them; they've saved you in the past. Other times, you don't answer because those guys are oathbreakers and heretics, dangerously disloyal - a nasty splinter faction - and you want them dead anyway. Other times, you want to aid them, but you don't make it in time, because the Warp's tides delay you; or because astropathy is near-strangers interpreting each other's vague dreams, and you miss the message in the nightmare of a million screaming children vomiting black sludge from their mouths while they're skinned alive by chanting monsters with liquid flesh made of pus and filth and liquified hate. Oh, that was a call for brotherhood by the Chapter of the Dark Maw? Not just one of the million nightmares you have, or the daemonic whisperings you hear all the time, because you live in Hell? Damn, Maybe you'll get it right next time.

Except maybe next time, the Host of the Dark Maw come and attack you for breaking an oath, and bring several other Word Bearer Hosts with them, who now despise you for breaking the loyalty of the Legion. They're loyal Word Bearers, but they see you as dangerously disloyal, a nasty splinter faction that needs to be destroyed.

Or maybe you interpret the message right, and are dying to come help your brothers, but the Dark Maw are fighting the Chapter of the Osseous Throne, and you owe both Chapters your allegiance, so the only honourable thing to do is sit the fight out. Or maybe you owe the Osseous Throne an actual oath of brotherhood from past campaigns, and can't take the Dark Maw's side. Maybe the Dark Maw are fighting a warband from another Legion - the Venemous Rune, of the Death Guard - who you've served with and allied with a dozen times. But you break your oath to your proven allies, because the Dark Maw are Word Bearers, and the Venomous Rune are not your Legion. It doesn't matter because Legions mean everything, and your loyalty is to your bloodline, knowing it will never fail you. Or maybe it does matter, this time. Maybe you take the field against a warband of your own Legion, because the alliances you've made in the years since the Heresy during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror are what matter most to you now.

At some point, Vilus is assassinated, leaving you in sole command of the Host. Now you're powerful, but vulnerable. Your own Aspiring Champions are, well, aspiring. They think they can lead the Legion better than you. They point to oaths you've broken to other warbands, or oaths you've made when many of your men wanted to break them; or battles that didn't go in your favour. It doesn't matter if their slander is fact or fiction, words spreads among the ranks. Some (many? most?) of your men harbour secret desires to replace you. Or maybe they don't, and you're just worrying over glances and stilled conversations and spy reports over nothing. You form an elite guard, but they take heavy casualties because they're in the front line of every battle. And can you trust them, really? They're in the best place to kill you if it came to an assassination. Maybe they're taking so many casualties becuse your other squads keep not deep striking in time. Is that intentional, or are the frequent repairs that need to be made really causing mechanical problems? Or is it that your ships are increasingly alive and sentient, half-daemon themselves, and harder to control with conventional means?

Maybe you focus on learning ancient , difficult-to-acquire lore on sorcery, to learn how to bind daemons more strongly and control your mutating fleet. Maybe you do it to control your own men. Only, the rebellion against you grows, because they say you're focusing too much on sorcery and not material conquering. Are you? You're sure you're not, but what choice do you have? This has to be done. You have to make things secure for the warband. Don't they see that? Maybe some do. Maybe others are still planning to kill you, and will have to learn in time that they'll go through the same doubts and plans when they're in your position.

A Crusade is called. Maybe one of Abaddon's Black Crusades; maybe one of the lesser Black Crusades called by another individual of great power; maybe just a massive raid into realspace. Awesome. During that campaign that lasts 24 years and covers battles on 30 worlds, you're attacked by a warband in an ambush, in the middle of a fight against the Imperial Guard, by an Emperor's Children warband you've never even heard of, and can't remember offending. Why? Are there reasons from the past? The Legion Wars? Maybe there are. Maybe they just saw a chance to screw a weaker enemy over, or force you to lose the fight so your Legion's reputation suffers. Maybe they were mercenaries hired by another warband to soften you up for a coming assault. Who hired them? You redouble your spy network, not knowing if you can trust them at all, since they said nothing about this ambush.

During the Crusade, you ally with a cabal of Thousand Son sorcerers, and their Rubric bodyguards. They have their own ships, resources, manpower - what a coup. They join your warband, though not really being sworn members of your Host, they'd still die for you and you'd die for them, with bonds forged in the crucible of war. They could've betrayed you a dozen times, but instead they risked everything to save you from one hell of a fight. You could've betrayed them and stolen their lore, but you saved them. Except maybe you didn't. maybe you need their sorcerous lore, so you slaughter them when they're weakened from helping you. No one will ever know. Right? Right? You get away with it cleanly, never hearing about the incident again, and enjoying their books of sorcery. The Thousand Sons never seek revenge. Except maybe they do, because they come 1,000 years later, in force, to annihilate you. Or maybe another Thousand Son warband thanks you for destroying their main rivals, and offers you a union. Maybe another Word Bearer warband gets annihilated almost to the last man, because the Thousand Sons believe it was them, not you, that did it.

Back in the Eye, at several points the Black Legion descends on your stronghold. Sometimes, they're weak and feeble, offering you a chance to join them. You refuse. Maybe you negotiate peacefully. Maybe you destroy them. Maybe you sense their leader is a weakling getting above his station, and has nothing to do with Abaddon, as many Black Legion warband leaders surely don't. Other times, they descend in force enough to annihilate your world/fleet/stronghold, and you have to run. Maybe they catch you, though. Maybe they offer you the choice to wear the Black, or be destroyed. Maybe you manage to escape anyway, and maybe your Host is finally destroyed. Maybe you join the Black Legion out of necessity, and despise it, gearing up to betray them later. Maybe you find that the freedom is liberating, and stick with it. Maybe you find that it's literally no different - your warband is still the same, your faith is still the same, and you have the same complicated relationships with Black Legion warbands that you did with Word Bearer warbands. Legion ties mean everything to some warbands, sometimes, and nothing to others, at other times. Maybe you spend endless campaigns devoting yourself to the Black legion, or the Word Bearers, only to find more and more warbands from your Legion are defecting, or betraying you, or never swore quite the same oaths as you did. Why didn't they? Or did they, and it's a misunderstanding? Remember that time you were assumed to be a traitor to your Legion? If they would just stop firing at you and killing your fleet, maybe you could sort it out. Wow, how many men did you just lose in a misunderstanding? Does the truth even matter anymore? If you keep hesitating and bleating about misunderstandings, you're going to be wiped out. How weak do you look in front of your men right now? Kill or be killed.

Say you remain a Word Bearer, though. maybe over time you seek the Black Legion out yourself, to swear loyalty the Legion that seems more unified in your sector of the Eye, or that is enjoying the greatest success and by far the strongest. Maybe you remain a Word Bearer, and the local Black Legion warbands are pathetic. You lord it over them, and demand tribute. Maybe some pay, others resist, and others run to tell Abaddon. maybe Abaddon listens, and descends with the Planet Killer. Maybe he ignroes the muling whines of weaklings, and you never hear from them again. Maybe the Warp eats them, or another warband, or daemons, or some ghost-god of the slain Eldar civilisation in whose ruins the Chaos Marines have made their empire.


While you're Crusading next time, your Host joins with two other warbands - a World Eater remnant, and a Death Guard warband. Of the three commanders, you have the most power and influence, so you become de facto leader of this Council of Three. Now you have Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines to use in battle. This is the life, right? Except, the three factions of this new warband don't get on. They ally for convenience, or because they recognise the advantage, or even just temporarily for the current Crusade - or even just for this single world, and once it's taken, they break apart. Or maybe you manage to hold them together, and they become your lieutenants. Maybe you keep them in line, despite fights constantly breaking out between the rank and file warriors, and the clash of faiths, and the constant pressure of your lieutenants to undermine you and take control themselves. Maybe you're a lieutenant, and the Plague Lord or Skull Champion leading your mixed warband is weak, or foolish, and you know you can lead better than he can. So you're the one working to take control. You're the commander of the Host of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, but your warband itself is known as The Triumvirate, and your reputation for success, brutality, cunning and competence begins to cast a long shadow. Other warbands can't match you in size, and begin to pay fealty, or serve you, or simply flee from you when you enter their territory. What was a simple alliance in a Black Crusade is now a legitimate warband. maybe it breaks down in a month. Maybe it lasts 8,000 years of ruthless, elegant destruction of its enemies.

But you remain a Word Bearer. Maybe you remain closely allied with your other commanders in The Triumvirate, but you prefer to spend most of your time working alone, and the bonds of the Triumvirate are only for times of great need. That makes perfect sense. Then it becomes like any other allegiance of warbands, and you go your merry way. maybe you never had anything to do with those pathetic deviants of broken Legions anyway.

Now you need new Marines. You find a sorcerous way to breed them. Or the technical facilities to clone them. Then you have to find the lore to clone them yourselves, or hire out a fallen Apothecary who is absolutely insane, for the right for him to help you. But he wants an artefact lost on on a daemon world, or deep in the Imperium, or he wants jhis former warband destroyed for exiling him, before he'll help. Maybe he does as you ask, but it doesn't work. Maybe he's too unreliable and screws it all up for you. Now you're even worse off, having lost the facility and all those resources and the time spent getting it all. Maybe he does it, and it actually works.

Or maybe you raid loyalist Chapters and harvest their fallen for gene-seed? Attacking Space Marines is risky, they don't just sit around and wait to be attacked. They strike planetary targets hard, then leave. They rarely defend, and usually attack. How do you find them? En route to a world? Lure them in? What if they bring overwhelming force and you risk destruction?

Then, of course, what about purity of bloodline? Does that matter to you? Does it somehow affect you on a deep level if your own future brothers are made from Imperial Fist or Ultramarine gene-seed? What will you do? Maybe you attack other Word Bearer Hosts and harvest their gene-seed. Maybe you cut deals with Mechanicum factions - which themselves are devolved into countless city-states and independent worlds in the Eye, allying and oathbreaking in much the same way the Chaos Marines are, and the same way every faction in 40K does to a lesser extent. Maybe you arrange to protect their forge world in exchange for them establishing gene-seed and Marine production facilities. What if they're invaded and you can't handle the scale of the war, though? Maybe you run, and earn the eternal enmity of the local Mechanicum. Maybe you get away clean. Maybe you fight it out, and suffer horrendous losses. Maybe you win easily, and the allies of the destroyed warband come for your head. Maybe the Mechanicum world you've agreed to serve screw it up, and you've just wasted a lot of time, ammunition and Marine lives in a campaign that profited you nothing.

You could fly to other Word Bearer territories, and ask to use their facilities. Maybe they welcome you with open arms. Maybe they've heard you're a traitor, or that you refused to come to the aid of another Host, or that you sinned in some way that you've never even considered or heard of. Maybe a greater Legion commander steps in and weighs in favour of your claim to gene-seed facilities. Maybe you're cast out, and have to sail elsewhere to deal with others. Maybe you approach one of the major power players, like Erebus or Kor Phaeron. Are they on campaign, in the Imperium, for countless decades? Are they on Ghalmek or Sicarus? Reaching either of those worlds - reaching any world in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom - where space and time obey no physical laws - may very well be something like the Odyssey, a journey that could take days or decades, under the eyes of malignant daemons through a realm that itself exists to possess, mutate, consume, and digest material life.

Maybe the human thrall-army that serves you mutates beyond usability. Maybe they're lured away by another cult's faith, to serve another warband. Maybe they're just slaughtered in a bad battle, and you're massively underpowered in terms of Traitor Guard and human slaves now. Raid prison worlds? Hmm, good body count, but they're untrained. Try to convert Guard regiments? Tough call, and it involves careful sedition work, and your only trusted co-leaders spending years away from the warband to convert the human armies. Maybe you could send your less trusted underlings to do it, but then who would the new humans serve? Would they be an army secretly waiting to betray you?

Maybe you agree to serve a Black Legion warband for sixty-six years, to have your Apothecaries and Fleshsmiths trained in the mastery of Berzerker surgery. Now you have Berzerkers. Awesome. But what if another Word Bearer warband considers that a dangerous collusion with an enemy Legion, despite the fact you've been perfectly loyal and you know a dozen other warbands have done the same? Now you have another fight on your hands, with fanatics as dangerous as you are. Maybe the Black Legion warband you've allied with betrays you, and reveals nothing at all. Maybe they're destroyed from internal conflict and the new leader refuses the old deal his predecessor made. Maybe over time, your Host and the Black Legion Company become bound in blood-loyalty, and form a joint warband of two factions. Maybe you get tired of them after three days and replenish your recent losses by stealing their ships in an ambush.

What if Vilus doesn't die? What if he starts grooming other co-leaders as the warband grows in size? Maybe he means to replace you. Maybe you most loyal warriors keep telling you they know a betrayal is coming, that the whole warband may have to choose sides. Maybe you act first, and start the civil war. Maybe Vilus does. The warband breaks apart, and the survivors go their own ways. Maybe both warbands call themselves the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound. Maybe you surrender the name, or Vilus does, because he no longer cares about the old traditions.

What if Vilus encourages contests of competency between his underlings? You lose favour by failing wars, or gain favour by successful missions. it's all a game to him. He's no leader at all. You could command the warband and focus it to better, more meaningful ends. Right? Right? It's not like almost every other Aspiring Champion in the warband thinks the same thing, after all. Right?

While you're away raiding the Imperium, what happens to your stronghold? Is it hidden well enough in the Eye of Terror? Maybe it is. What if time and space distorts and reveals it, though? Do you leave a garrison of your best troops to defend it? Maybe you do, then you take the battlefield without your best warriors. Maybe you return and another warband has still destroyed your base, or occupied it for themselves. So begins a costly war to retake your fortress, or carry on as a fleet-based warband, forever suffering a lack of resources compared to those with fully operational and well-supplied homeworlds. Maybe you go to Sicarus as just one of the Hosts using it as a base. You still share the territory with countless warbands that have an eternity of complications, grudges, oaths, betrayals and future treacheries on their consciences. You're certain half of them even here, in your Legion's deepest claimed territory, are only united by strong leaders that demand they stay united, and enforce it by death. So many warbands seem honestly bound by brotherhood, but look over there - the fleet of the Host of the Shrieking Wound. You know they failed to come to your aid a few centuries ago, and betrayed the Legion at the Battle of Ziar by taking too long to commit to the fight. Maybe they say the same things about you. Tension is always rife, even between blood-bound allies, for glory in the eyes of the Legion's power players, and in the eyes of the Gods.

Maybe you stay. Maybe you go. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

That's what it's like to be a Chaos Marine.

[Charon]

But I also disagree with the idea that the Dark Mechanicum threw off their doctrine when they rejected the Emperor. The difference between the science that we are used to and the science that the Mechanicus does is not religion. The difference is the belief that knowledge is finite, and that in the distant past mankind had more of it (possibly all of it) than we have today. What reason do we have to believe that the Dark Mechanicum reject this basic tenet? Their split from the Mechanicus was based on a rejection of the Emperor as Omnissiah, not a rejection of the commonly held, incorrect beliefs about the Dark Age of Technology.


There are enough background books around to prove this statement wrong. The dark mechanicus enjoys experimenting outside the tight box of mechanicum dogma. Thats why they meld flesh and machine, daemon and machine, experiment with xenos wargear and so on.


Same way as the Guard does, I expect.

The valkyrie is in the rules. A chaos transport is not.


or in dread claws, drop pods, storm ravens, thunderhawks and warp magic.

so.... why I cant use them?

[daboarder]

so.... why I cant use them?

These days I really think its because SM players would cry if they weren't special snowflakes.

[Katharon]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

[Denzark]

Chaos:

Can't manage: Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, LR Crusader

Can Manage: T-Hawk, Fire/Storm Raptor, LR Spartan (note FW with price-tag).

Hmmm...

I was also thinking about Mechanicus. In the Imperium, there are things that only the Mechanicus can repair/open etc. So Techmarines or Ad Mech attachees. In your Chaos Chapter, anyone who feels like it can crank open the old Plasma gun for a bit of maintenance (might be why mine get hot so often).

[Morgrim]

The only comparable 'modern' invasion by Chaos Marines I can think of off the top of my head was the Siege of Vraks, where the CSM quite literally landed on the other side of the continent and walked. It was a smart tactical decision because it let them charge into the undefended rear of their Imperial enemy and if they'd come in straight down from above they'd have risked taking severe losses before they got into the fight proper. I don't see why that wouldn't work on the tabletop for anything other than Planetstrike.

Landing so far away is probably a bit silly, but landing just outside the range of the enemy's AA guns and then charging is probably more sensible than using drop pods. Although I thought CSM had the option of teleport beacons and deepstriking jump troops anyway. Was that in previous editions?

[daboarder]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

they also have, forgeworlds, empires, civilizations and so on supporting them

[Katharon]

they also have, forgeworlds, empires, civilizations and so on supporting them

That is, again, dependent upon how cohesive the lines of supply/communication are between the above and the end-terminus of the Traitor Marines themselves. Chaos armies will, either fortunately or unfortunately, never have the cohesiveness that the Imperium possesses in arming and supplying its armies (superhuman or not).

[daboarder]

Except the imperium is not cohesive. And certainly not responsive. Its a burecratic carcass. Its takes decades to even notice planets dissapearing. Its also full of factions driven by nothing more rhan self interest. Interests that more often than not lead to mutually exclusive goals.

At the end of the day however. If your unwilling to accept that the black libraries pre eminent chaos author knows what hes talking about then I guess we're not going to agree.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Certainly more cohesive than Chaos.

Dirty traitor scum.

[Kol_Saresk]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but bazaars are not charities. They require something in return. Meaning you can only buy from it, if you have resources of your own to trade. Sounds more like a thriving economy than a bare-bottom den of thieves robbing thieves just so they can get one more bolt round.

The reality is that the forces of Chaos, with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths, are just as well supplied as the Imperium. The difference is that the Dark Mechanicum is innovative rather than stagnant, as the Adeptus Mechanicus is. This is why the Traitors(in the fluff and in Forgeworld) get Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods which are complex enough to not only fly back into orbit, but around the battlefield as well. Meanwhile Loyalists get the one trick pony. This is why Chaos Marine armies are also known for their daemon-engines, of which we have four(five if you want to count the Helbrute) in the Codex, three more if you throw in Forgeworld and beyond number if you throw in the fluff background. And yet, "they are so woefully under supplied when compared to the dying, stagnating Imperium that has forgotten more knowledge than it can ever hope to re-learn."

Yes, Chaos Space Marines should be different from Loyalists. However, they are Chaos - wait for it - Space Marines.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet my point is, how do you pay for it?

Granted I've not read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. They kind of passed me by (though seems I probably should).

What is the common currency, and how do you obtain it? I imagine that the mentioned Chaos Bazarr is easier to deal with than the Dark Mechanicus for instance, even if you don't get quite the same choice.

Then we have other issues involved. What if a fund raising raid all goes a bit belly up, and you get mauled heavily? You'd wind up in a worse position than before.

There's also the genuine threat as mentioned in my first post of simply being mugged for the best bits of kit. Add to that that the Warbands seem relatively fluid. Within the Imperium, once you're an Ultramarine, you're an Ultramarine, and you progress through that Chapter and that Chapter alone. Renegade? It seems possible from the background that you can continually jump ship from Warband to Warband, for whatever reason.

So to progress the discussion.....what are the common currencies for trade within the renegade factions, and how do you go about acquiring them?

Likewise for Imperial Space Marines - How do they go about trade? Some, such as the Ultramarines seem self sufficient within their own realm, and most Chapters seem to have favoured vassal planets, which would probably provide some sort of tithe. But how about Fleet Based Chapters like Black Templars, which have no set patrol area, instead just arseing about the Galaxy looking for a punch up? How do they sort out their supplies? Do they actually have to pay for them, or is it a case of 'Oh, hello Mr Chapter Master, as you can see, hands are around ankles, and position adopted, how might I best supply you today, on account I suspect it's the height of bad manners/heresy to ask for recompense....'

[Kol_Saresk]

Services rendered, exclusive technology(especially for the Obliterator Cults and various hereteks/Dark Mechanicum), and I think the novel Blood Reaver mentions the usage of defaced Imperial coins. I know one of the Gaunt's Ghost novels show that the Blood Pact and the Chaos forces in the Sabbat Sector used Imperial Coins defaced by an eight-point star. As for obtaining them, personal discretion of the warband.

And yeah, in Chaos survival is tough. Look back at the post from Aaron Dembski-Dowden that daboarder put up. That is the typical life of a Chaos Space Marine. Notice all of the scenarios from being well off, to barely surviving. And the reality is, being in the Imperium ain't too different. Just ask the Lamenters, Relictors and Celestial Lions.

[Katharon]

Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but bazaars are not charities. They require something in return. Meaning you can only buy from it, if you have resources of your own to trade. Sounds more like a thriving economy than a bare-bottom den of thieves robbing thieves just so they can get one more bolt round.

When an army scrounges for things, it's not like a bunch of kids running around trying to find loose change that people dropped to buy bubble gum out of the 25-cent machine. I made a point of referencing the general method by which your average warband is likely to gain quick resources: piracy (scrounging) or buying it outright from willing sellers (some rogue traders in the fluff have been executed for being caught selling weapons to people they shouldn't have). It's not as if the Chaos systems in the Eye have their own currency or anything, it's more of a barter system -- based on descriptions from numerous BL novels. Those Chaos groups that are lucky enough to retain entire planets as their holdings might fair better than others.

Do not mistake what I said for some sort of blase response to mean "0h n0es, we'ze gotta find dat b0lter round to fire next time".


The reality is that the forces of Chaos, with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths, are just as well supplied as the Imperium. The difference is that the Dark Mechanicum is innovative rather than stagnant, as the Adeptus Mechanicus is. This is why the Traitors(in the fluff and in Forgeworld) get Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods which are complex enough to not only fly back into orbit, but around the battlefield as well. Meanwhile Loyalists get the one trick pony. This is why Chaos Marine armies are also known for their daemon-engines, of which we have four(five if you want to count the Helbrute) in the Codex, three more if you throw in Forgeworld and beyond number if you throw in the fluff background. And yet, "they are so woefully under supplied when compared to the dying, stagnating Imperium that has forgotten more knowledge than it can ever hope to re-learn."

Yes, Chaos Space Marines should be different from Loyalists. However, they are Chaos - wait for it - Space Marines.

You'd be wrong. As you put it, there are numerous "forces of Chaos with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths," and they are all looking out for numero uno. It's not as if there is some sort of great kumbaya flower festival going on where every servant of Chaos is passing along a fair share to their fellow devotee. If there is one thing you can count on, it's the disunity of Chaos forces.

Those items you mention, by the way, are from the Horus Heresy; the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods are relics from the Horus Heresy. Seeing as how time flows differently within the Warp, many of those warbands and their gear have only experienced about a few hundred years to maybe a single millenia or two of time passing. As such it isn't surprising that some of them would retain their old gear and equipment.

The Dark Mechanicum is not innovative so much as insane. You're not taking into account the corrupting influence of Chaos-inspired scrap code and how it affected the adepts that would eventually spawn the Dark Mechanicum. They thought it would be a jolly idea to stick a daemon inside of a machine and have it do their bidding -- too bad if its not 100% effective at keeping them from going berserk.

The Imperium may be carrying on in a semi-stagnant state, but it still retains a level of technology on par or greater than most or all Chaos forces (grav guns, land raider variants, etc).

The fact that you point out that they are indeed Chaos Space Marines also reinforces my point. Chaos is a degenerating force.

[Katharon]

What is the common currency, and how do you obtain it? I imagine that the mentioned Chaos Bazarr is easier to deal with than the Dark Mechanicus for instance, even if you don't get quite the same choice.

Then we have other issues involved. What if a fund raising raid all goes a bit belly up, and you get mauled heavily? You'd wind up in a worse position than before.

I imagine that the following might be used as systems of currency: raw materials, slaves, gear, weaponry, precious metals and stones, and daemonic IOUs.



There's also the genuine threat as mentioned in my first post of simply being mugged for the best bits of kit. Add to that that the Warbands seem relatively fluid. Within the Imperium, once you're an Ultramarine, you're an Ultramarine, and you progress through that Chapter and that Chapter alone. Renegade? It seems possible from the background that you can continually jump ship from Warband to Warband, for whatever reason.

The Skull Harvest described in the book by the same name, by Graham McNeill is a perfect example of this fluidity. The choice of whether or not to dedicate yourself to a single warband or another seems to depend on the individual and the warband in question. Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs' ranks are filled with various renegades from a dozen different Chapters and even a few Traitor Marines from the old Legions. Most of the Chaos Legions are still fairly attached to their old loyalties to the Legion, still identifying themselves as .

If a Chaos Champion or leader can maintain the personal loyalty of his followers either through force, daemonic pacts, or buying them -- then it seems clear that some of those ties are strong. But, as you point out, there are just as many cases of Chaos Champions losing their heads and ambitious underlings taking over, choosing new sides, etc.



So to progress the discussion.....what are the common currencies for trade within the renegade factions, and how do you go about acquiring them?

See above for currencies.

As for acquisition: invasion, conquest, tithing of the former, and piracy.



Likewise for Imperial Space Marines - How do they go about trade? Some, such as the Ultramarines seem self sufficient within their own realm, and most Chapters seem to have favoured vassal planets, which would probably provide some sort of tithe. But how about Fleet Based Chapters like Black Templars, which have no set patrol area, instead just arseing about the Galaxy looking for a punch up? How do they sort out their supplies? Do they actually have to pay for them, or is it a case of 'Oh, hello Mr Chapter Master, as you can see, hands are around ankles, and position adopted, how might I best supply you today, on account I suspect it's the height of bad manners/heresy to ask for recompense....'

This is where things get to be a bit more interesting, but we're given enough information that we can make strong assertions as to this answer. First, lets start with what we know from the beginning: the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy.

During the Great Crusade the Emperor bent all his power and resources towards the creation of his new Imperium of Man. The resources of Terra, Mars, and every conquered planet after that were to give resources, men, and material (in the form of a tithe set by the Administratum of Terra) towards that conquest. Since this was a military operation, there was a complex but masterfully executed method of supply. As a former soldier I can tell you that one of the worst problems that any military faces is to adequately supply its forces - its not as simple as it might sound. The ability to supply eighteen different legions, hundreds of large Imperial Army groups, and thousands of tertiary fleets and units in the execution of the Great Crusade was staggeringly awesome. It was this bedrock that future methods of supply and tithing would build upon later after the Horus Heresy.

So, here we have this system set in place to support the execution of the greatest spread of conquest in galactic history. Cue the Horus Heresy.

The Heresy did not entirely cripple the supply system, but badly mangled it to say the least. Horus wasn't a fool, the Emperor had made him Warmaster for a reason after all, and knew that he could not simply bring the Imperium to its knees by lighting a match to everything and proudly sitting on the cinders. His armies required just as much material and supplies as those Loyalists -- even more so when you consider that he could now no longer rely on the standard Imperial supply lines, some of which he might subvert to his own uses, but not entirely enough that he could out produce the rest of the Imperium. That is the reason why Horus struck so quickly at Terra, why he had the Word Bearers cripple the Ultramarines: in a long term war he would lose. The Emperor simply had more worlds, more forges, and more ability to produce more Astartes than Horus himself did. You'll notice that it is mentioned several times throughout the book that Horus' forces raided old supply depots and forge worlds (like the one that Lion El'Johnson saved from capture but ended up handing those uber-artillery over to Perturabo anyway...) along the route back to Terra.

Now we enter into the area that has, thus far, less information; that period of time known as "[i]The Scouring." Horus died, his forces scattered, and Mr. Perfect Blue was out to set things right. If there is one thing we can safely guess at, it is that in the wake of the Heresy, during the time when the Ultramarines Legion swarmed the galaxy putting wrongs to right, saving cats from trees, and kicking the Chaos Legions back into the Eye of Terror -- it's that Guilliman didn't do things by halves. We're talking about a primarch that didn't just conquer his homeworld before the Emperor arrived to find him. We're talking about a primarch that united several dozen systems under a single, well organized government and prospering economic system. The Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar were, as has been said, an empire within an empire. Even to "modern" times at present, Ultramar (much reduced to that old half-dozen systems) is an exemplar of what the Imperium at large strives to be. Worlds such as Calth and Armatura could produce legions and fleets of soldiers -- and supply them perfectly -- because the man that organized them that way was a meticulous savant. Truly, much as it makes even me cringe to say it, Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs in this respect: he was made for ruling an empire and doing it efficiently.

As such, because Guilliman took charge of the Council of Terra and set about creating the framework of the Imperial government as it stands to this day, he would have (and likely did) organize the supply network and tithing system of the present day Imperium. Naturally over the course of 10,000 years some of it has fallen apart. Forge worlds have been destroyed, captured, etc. But for all of that, the bureaucracy which some may call ignorant and stagnant, has stubbornly stuck to the methodology that Guilliman set down for them to follow ten millania in the past. That alone is a victory of sorts. And in his calculations, Guilliman would have taken into account the needs of the new 1,000-man Space Marine Chapters that he had created. The assets of each legion were divided fairly evenly across those surviving members of the old legions and a method for creating new Chapters was set in place (since only the High Lords of Terra, the inheritors of the Council of Terra, can authorize the creation of new space marine chapters).

The needs of the Chapter and the nature of the area that they are deployed are taken into account in regards to what they are given. Those Chapters that are fleet based likely have forgeships, such as Chalice of Fire that helps to produce the arms and armor of the Salamanders. Other chapters, such as the Crimson Fists were given territory for deeds done or necessity, those worlds thereby no longer required to send tithes to Terra but rather to use all their resources and abilities as required to supply the Chapter that now controlled them. Then you also have chapters like the Space Wolves (and I think also the Black Templar) who not only have either forgeships or other methods of supply, but also actively take war prizes: captured ships and other assets [Berek Thunderfist's Great Company retained a large destroyer, not a strike cruiser, for transport].

Likely most Imperial Governors are required to render whatever assistance or material they can when asked by a Space Marine Chapter, willingly or not -- they have little choice. They might have a small chance to expect compensation from higher levels of authority within the Administratum, but they are likely to just be told that their "sacrifices are in the service of the God-Emperor and he will give you your just reward in the after life". So many governors probably feel the pain in their wallets, but are likely to be more sanguine knowing that by doing so those Space Marines will be keeping him/her and his/her world from being conquered, eaten, etc.

[Anggul]

There is no justification for dicking over an army that people play and prefer to another. Sure a lot of them won't have some of the stuff the loyalists have, and that's a good thing for gameplay because it means the armies work differently. What they should have, however, is just as much different stuff. They don't, which is unfair on those who want to enjoy playing Chaos Marines. Add that to the fact that most of what they do have is rather crap, and you don't have a good situation. The Chaos Marine codex was not hard to do well, but GW somehow managed to fail at it.

[Katharon]

The Chaos Marine codex was not hard to do well, but GW somehow managed to fail at it.

And I totally agree with that.

[Kol_Saresk]

Cool So show me where Chaos is degenerating. Last I heard, they've invented a total of what, seven daemon engines on the tabletop, provided Forgeworld is allowed? Two Planetkillers. Captured and warped two Blackstone Fortresses, not to mention actually made their original weaponry, something the Imperial forces that had been stationed on them forever could not do. And yet, "Chaos is degenerating".

Meanwhile, the same books that show Chaos bazaars show rotting cities for Hives(Lord of the Night), show entire colonies that had been left to fend for themselves(Void Stalker), shows a corrupt regime that will punish those who are loyal to it for disagreements of how things should be done(the Celestial Lions; the Badab War).

Part of the setting of the 41st Millennium, is the Imperium of Man is dying. When the Grey Knights are called to fight off daemons, they are willing to sacrifice dozens of worlds just to draw one daemon into the open in the hope they might defeat it.(Mortarion's Heart) Certain Chapters, like the Marines Malevolent are "so far off the beaten path" that they have to raid other Imperials for supples.(Salamander by Nick Kyme) And when the massed armies of the Imperium join together in righteous crusade, they are as likely to kill each other as the enemy.(Pretty much Gaunt's Ghost in a nutshell). Not to mention the Space Marines who have no problem slaughtering innocents if it means killing an enemy. For example, when the Marines Malevolent bombarded civilians to kill attacking Orks, as recorded in the War for Armageddon IA article. Or the Carcharodons slaughtering planet after planet of innocents just to draw the Mantis Warriors into open warfare.

And let us not forget the Nova Terra Interregnum. The Age of Apostasy. The Age of Redemption. The Waning. The Obscuran Uprisings. And oh so many more Imperial vs Imperial wars. The Imperium is no better off than Chaos. In fact, its probably worse.

[Mr Mystery]

Again, I disagree.

The Imperium, despite being disparate has a cohesion the renegade factions simply don't. Self interest is tempered by the need for mutual protection. A Forgeworld can't necessarily pick and choose who it trades with, as their neighbours are also co-defenders. Doesn't prevent them giving preferential treatment etc, but refusal of service seems unlikley.

Big bueraucratic mess it might be, but it is relatively stable.

Chaos? Again not so much. Sure, some of the better established/larger Warbands are likely to be pretty well supplied, but they are still raided by other factions, loyalties (as covered above) are more likely to be fluid. Favours can be owed, but you have to be very careful to whom you have become indebted. It's like a Empire in a constant state of regicide and civil war. It's anarchic, it's chaotic.

The Imperium also has one resource which Chaos simply cannot match. Sheer manpower. Billions of planets, each with Millions, if not Billiosn of citizens. Make no mistake, if by some bizarre circumstance every single man or woman at arms in the Imperium could be focussed on the forces of Chaos, you'd be looking at an incredibly one sided fight. Chaos have to worry about attrition in a way The Imperium doesn't really have to, in the wider scale. The Imperium also has tried and tested industry.

The Dark Mechanicum? They're mucking about with Daemons and AI's. Single thing going wrong could potentially lead to their Forgeworld going a little wibbly and gribbly and being infested with Daemons who don't exact care for previous allegiance. This is a much lower threat on Loyalist Forgeworlds, who for the most part abide by their Religion and have nowt to do with AI or Daemons (there are of course no doubt exceptions here and there).

As before, it's all about Loyalty. Let's say you have a bunch of Warpsmiths in your Warband, and your Warband is of a fair size, and well equipped. And those Warpsmiths, already of dubious loyalty on account they're, you know, renegades are made a better offer (perhaps some sneaky Archeotech?) by a rival Warband. Not only might you wind up minus all your tech support, but also minus all your tastiest bits of equipment, on account they were part of the deal.

Chaos is ultimately it's own worst enemy. Whilst The Imperium does indeed endure the odd element of civil strife, it has the size and infrastructue to recover. Chaos? Constant intercine warfare as Warbands form, fall, merge, reform, shift allegiance, raid, backstab, betray, rebel, assassinate etc.

Chaos is not a cohesive threat for the majority of the time. Yes, when Abaddon gathers enough troops for a Black Crusade, the threat is cohesive, and far more terrifying for it, but those are the exceptions. 13 occasions in 10,000 years. The rest? Small raids, system invasions, and ultimately nothing the Imperium can't deal with given sufficient warning/time. To me, that's a massive part of Chaos' appeal!

The Gods themselves are constantly warring between one another, seeking some kind of upperhand. And when a God diminishes in the Great Game, so do it's followers. Imperium? Not so much.

[Anggul]

There are plenty of organised forces of chaos. The Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Huron's lot and so on are all still cohesive, powerful threats.

The Imperium is beset on all sides and are balancing on a razor edge. This is the entire point of 40k. They are not as secure as some people seem to think. If they were, it would be a lot less grimdark.

Again, there is no justification for a faction to have less good, fun options in-game. They have plenty of sources of other things such as stolen Forgeworlds and the Dark Mechanicus. They shouldn't have the same options as loyalist marines, but they should have just as many different options, and those different options shouldn't suck.

[Nabterayl]

The valkyrie is in the rules. A chaos transport is not.
Sure, but Valkyries aren't dropships, let alone combat dropships. I am inclined to agree with Morgrim - by and large, Chaos Space Marines don't drop into the middle of combat, because by and large, sensible people don't do that. Should there be some sort of option for it in the codex? Sure, if that's what we're arguing about. Do CSM actually do it on any kind of regular basis? I don't buy it.


Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor?
The difference between these examples and actual supply is that you don't get to pick what shows up at a bazaar, and anybody can supply a whole warband with flak armor. There is a difference between being able to go down to the flea market and see if they have that g*ddamn Thunderhawk you need yet, and being able to call up the Forge World you have a feudal contract to and say, "Hey, I need a Thunderhawk and I can't build one in the chapter forge. Can you get on that? Thanks."

I mean ... I'm not here to argue that a codex should represent this part of the bell curve as opposed to that part. But gun shows and the widespread availability of low-quality gear are not a substitute for an actual supply line dedicated to providing elite gear.

[Kol_Saresk]

Again, I disagree.

The Imperium, despite being disparate has a cohesion the renegade factions simply don't. Self interest is tempered by the need for mutual protection. A Forgeworld can't necessarily pick and choose who it trades with, as their neighbours are also co-defenders. Doesn't prevent them giving preferential treatment etc, but refusal of service seems unlikley.

Big bueraucratic mess it might be, but it is relatively stable.

Chaos? Again not so much. Sure, some of the better established/larger Warbands are likely to be pretty well supplied, but they are still raided by other factions, loyalties (as covered above) are more likely to be fluid. Favours can be owed, but you have to be very careful to whom you have become indebted. It's like a Empire in a constant state of regicide and civil war. It's anarchic, it's chaotic.

The Imperium also has one resource which Chaos simply cannot match. Sheer manpower. Billions of planets, each with Millions, if not Billiosn of citizens. Make no mistake, if by some bizarre circumstance every single man or woman at arms in the Imperium could be focussed on the forces of Chaos, you'd be looking at an incredibly one sided fight. Chaos have to worry about attrition in a way The Imperium doesn't really have to, in the wider scale. The Imperium also has tried and tested industry.

The Dark Mechanicum? They're mucking about with Daemons and AI's. Single thing going wrong could potentially lead to their Forgeworld going a little wibbly and gribbly and being infested with Daemons who don't exact care for previous allegiance. This is a much lower threat on Loyalist Forgeworlds, who for the most part abide by their Religion and have nowt to do with AI or Daemons (there are of course no doubt exceptions here and there).

As before, it's all about Loyalty. Let's say you have a bunch of Warpsmiths in your Warband, and your Warband is of a fair size, and well equipped. And those Warpsmiths, already of dubious loyalty on account they're, you know, renegades are made a better offer (perhaps some sneaky Archeotech?) by a rival Warband. Not only might you wind up minus all your tech support, but also minus all your tastiest bits of equipment, on account they were part of the deal.

Chaos is ultimately it's own worst enemy. Whilst The Imperium does indeed endure the odd element of civil strife, it has the size and infrastructue to recover. Chaos? Constant intercine warfare as Warbands form, fall, merge, reform, shift allegiance, raid, backstab, betray, rebel, assassinate etc.

Chaos is not a cohesive threat for the majority of the time. Yes, when Abaddon gathers enough troops for a Black Crusade, the threat is cohesive, and far more terrifying for it, but those are the exceptions. 13 occasions in 10,000 years. The rest? Small raids, system invasions, and ultimately nothing the Imperium can't deal with given sufficient warning/time. To me, that's a massive part of Chaos' appeal!

The Gods themselves are constantly warring between one another, seeking some kind of upperhand. And when a God diminishes in the Great Game, so do it's followers. Imperium? Not so much.

"Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst His soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered seuper-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defense forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests if the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse."

Huh. it's almost as if the fluff is saying that the multitudes are just barely holding the frontline. Weird.

So. Where is this "cohesion" of the Imeprium? If its cohesive, why do we have Grey Knights cussing out Inquisitors? Why do we have Space Marine Chapters ready to destroy one another over the fate of some civilians? Why do we have Imperial Guard regiments killing each other in battle with "friendly fire"? Why do we have Lord Commanders planning coup de tats in order to claim the title of Warmaster? Why do we have the Adeptus Mechanicus stealing from Space Marine Chapters and then calling them Traitors so the Inquisition will go after them, an action which results in the Chapter becoming Traitor, if only for a while? Why do we have Inquisitors observing Astartes ritual and then declaring the Chapter Excommunicate because they misunderstood the ritual, causing the Chapter to become Chaos Marines? Why do we have Marines Malevolent stealing new gear intended for a fledgeling Chapter to replace their old, battle-beaten, should-have-been-dumped-millennia-ago armor and weaponry, and then threatening to fight the Salamanders over said loot?

Honestly, the Imperium sounds about as cohesive as the Forces of Chaos.


Sure, but Valkyries aren't dropships, let alone combat dropships. I am inclined to agree with Morgrim - by and large, Chaos Space Marines don't drop into the middle of combat, because by and large, sensible people don't do that. Should there be some sort of option for it in the codex? Sure, if that's what we're arguing about. Do CSM actually do it on any kind of regular basis? I don't buy it.


The difference between these examples and actual supply is that you don't get to pick what shows up at a bazaar, and anybody can supply a whole warband with flak armor. There is a difference between being able to go down to the flea market and see if they have that g*ddamn Thunderhawk you need yet, and being able to call up the Forge World you have a feudal contract to and say, "Hey, I need a Thunderhawk and I can't build one in the chapter forge. Can you get on that? Thanks."

I mean ... I'm not here to argue that a codex should represent this part of the bell curve as opposed to that part. But gun shows and the widespread availability of low-quality gear are not a substitute for an actual supply line dedicated to providing elite gear.

True, they are different. However, the thing about gun shows is that more than a few are actual vendors. Meaning, they are someone who has a steady supply line and are selling there. Or at least as steady can get in a literal slice of Hell. But in any economy, when there are vendors, there are bigger businesses. In this case, Obliterator Cults. Forgeworlds. Heretek Cults. Dark Mechanicus Sects. All of whom constantly desire slaves, technology they haven't gotten to play with, resources to use for building, test sights, test subjects and many other things. Even STCs.

But hey, even though Chaos can maintain Dreadclaws, Kharybdis(es?), Terminator suits, Dreadnoughts, build daemon-engines, build Planetkillers, figure out the inner workings of planet-destroying xenos tech, I'm sure it is a reasonable standpoint to say they are technologically inferior to the Imperium.

[Anggul]

The difference between these examples and actual supply is that you don't get to pick what shows up at a bazaar, and anybody can supply a whole warband with flak armor. There is a difference between being able to go down to the flea market and see if they have that g*ddamn Thunderhawk you need yet, and being able to call up the Forge World you have a feudal contract to and say, "Hey, I need a Thunderhawk and I can't build one in the chapter forge. Can you get on that? Thanks."

I mean ... I'm not here to argue that a codex should represent this part of the bell curve as opposed to that part. But gun shows and the widespread availability of low-quality gear are not a substitute for an actual supply line dedicated to providing elite gear.

Stolen forge worlds, dark mechanicus and entire worlds dedicated to slaving away and producing gear anyone? Chaos have plenty of access to such things, it's only the really disparate warbands that don't. The Iron Warriors can build death star fortress worlds!

[Kol_Saresk]

Stolen forge worlds, dark mechanicus and entire worlds dedicated to slaving away and producing gear anyone? Chaos have plenty of access to such things, it's only the really disparate warbands that don't. The Iron Warriors can build death star fortress worlds!

Supposedly they're too busy building skynet to worry about trivial things like building a Planetkiller in return for a chance to unlock the secrets of a Blackstone Fortress.

[daboarder]

Mystery go back and read the brb

[Lexington]

Forgive me, but I don't quite understand what anyone's arguing about here - which "toys" do the Chaos Marines want that Space Marines have? Drop Pods keep coming up, but CSM have got 'em (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ANVILLUS_PATTERN_DREADCLAW_DROP_POD.html). Otherwise, the explanation here has always been pretty clear - the Traitor Legions, being those Legions that were furthest from Terra during the Great Crusade, weren't well-equipped with newer things like Thunder Hammers, man-portable Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons and the like. There weren't many to begin with, and the few that would survive to the 40K era aren't numerous or prominent enough to warrant Codex representation.

In return, Chaos gets access to the previous generation of pre-Heresy equipment - Reapers, combi-equipped Terminators and the like, plus Chaotic equipment like the Defiler, Fiends and everyone's favorite in-game terror, the Helldrake.

One can argue that, yes, out there in the universe, there's certainly a couple of Traitor Marines toting Assault Cannons and Thunder Hammers. Probably, yeah. Still, same's true of Imperial Guard with Tau weaponry, and all sorts of other weirdo combinations, and you don't see those guys complaining.

[Charon]

Forgive me, but I don't quite understand what anyone's arguing about here - which "toys" do the Chaos Marines want that Space Marines have? Drop Pods keep coming up, but CSM have got 'em (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ANVILLUS_PATTERN_DREADCLAW_DROP_POD.html).

In return, Chaos gets access to the previous generation of pre-Heresy equipment - Reapers, combi-equipped Terminators and the like, plus Chaotic equipment like the Defiler, Fiends and everyone's favorite in-game terror, the Helldrake.



Then please show me the dreadclaw in my WH40k codex. Or a GW Dataslade for it... maybe I missed it.

It would be no issue if "in return" chaos would get useful stuff. The chaos fluff seems to be a cheap excuse for some ppl or gw to say "well, your stuff HAS to be crap.. its in the fluff!"

The difference between a 10 man CSM Squad and and a 10 man SM Squad is ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Chapter tactics. Where is the tradeoff?

[Nabterayl]

Forgive me, but I don't quite understand what anyone's arguing about here - which "toys" do the Chaos Marines want that Space Marines have? Drop Pods keep coming up, but CSM have got 'em (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ANVILLUS_PATTERN_DREADCLAW_DROP_POD.html). Otherwise, the explanation here has always been pretty clear - the Traitor Legions, being those Legions that were furthest from Terra during the Great Crusade, weren't well-equipped with newer things like Thunder Hammers, man-portable Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons and the like. There weren't many to begin with, and the few that would survive to the 40K era aren't numerous or prominent enough to warrant Codex representation.

In return, Chaos gets access to the previous generation of pre-Heresy equipment - Reapers, combi-equipped Terminators and the like, plus Chaotic equipment like the Defiler, Fiends and everyone's favorite in-game terror, the Helldrake.

One can argue that, yes, out there in the universe, there's certainly a couple of Traitor Marines toting Assault Cannons and Thunder Hammers. Probably, yeah. Still, same's true of Imperial Guard with Tau weaponry, and all sorts of other weirdo combinations, and you don't see those guys complaining.
QFT.


Then please show me the dreadclaw in my WH40k codex. Or a GW Dataslade for it... maybe I missed it.
I get the frustration, Charon, but there's a difference between "I wish you had written my codex better" and "I don't have access to X."

[daboarder]

another thing to remember is that in 40k, the OLDER the imperial tech the better, so all that fancy new gear the SM's supposedly are getting "MADE"....its worse than the original gear the legions are rocking!

[Denzark]

Forgive me, but I don't quite understand what anyone's arguing about here - which "toys" do the Chaos Marines want that Space Marines have? Otherwise, the explanation here has always been pretty clear - the Traitor Legions, being those Legions that were furthest from Terra during the Great Crusade, weren't well-equipped with newer things like Thunder Hammers, man-portable Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons and the like. There weren't many to begin with, and the few that would survive to the 40K era aren't numerous or prominent enough to warrant Codex representation.


One can argue that, yes, out there in the universe, there's certainly a couple of Traitor Marines toting Assault Cannons and Thunder Hammers. Probably, yeah. Still, same's true of Imperial Guard with Tau weaponry, and all sorts of other weirdo combinations, and you don't see those guys complaining.

Umm, not quite. I am currently re-reading Mechanicum. One of the plot strands is that the Fabricator Locum notices that close, in system Legions (who will eventually be the loyalists) are not getting enough supplies. Whereas he notices that the supply chains are all maximised to provide Legions in support of the Warmaster.


Look, does everyone recall any number of fluff pieces where a clichéd 'vital forgeworld' is under attack or needs recapturing? What do you think the Chaos types are doing while they are in control of these locations, smoking the Governor's cigars and diddling his daughters to death?

[DWest]

Look, does everyone recall any number of fluff pieces where a clichéd 'vital forgeworld' is under attack or needs recapturing? What do you think the Chaos types are doing while they are in control of these locations, smoking the Governor's cigars and diddling his daughters to death?

Yes, actually, I think that's exactly what the Chaos Marines are doing. Loading all the loot is slaves' work.

[Katharon]

"Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst His soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered seuper-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defense forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests if the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse."

Huh. it's almost as if the fluff is saying that the multitudes are just barely holding the frontline. Weird.

Wait, so you're going to credit Chaos with ALL of the actions and assaults taking place by the Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons? If the Imperium had *only* Chaos to worry about, the war wouldn't last more than a few decades, a century at most, to kick all of them into the Eye or Maelstrom and set up a strong fortification line around said areas -- basically penning them in.

That said, as you so clearly show here and as is shown in the rulebook, the IoM has ALL of that stuff on its plate and *still* has time to kick Abaddon and his cronies back into the Eye thirteen times and counting.



So. Where is this "cohesion" of the Imeprium? If its cohesive, why do we have Grey Knights cussing out Inquisitors? Why do we have Space Marine Chapters ready to destroy one another over the fate of some civilians? Why do we have Imperial Guard regiments killing each other in battle with "friendly fire"? Why do we have Lord Commanders planning coup de tats in order to claim the title of Warmaster? Why do we have the Adeptus Mechanicus stealing from Space Marine Chapters and then calling them Traitors so the Inquisition will go after them, an action which results in the Chapter becoming Traitor, if only for a while? Why do we have Inquisitors observing Astartes ritual and then declaring the Chapter Excommunicate because they misunderstood the ritual, causing the Chapter to become Chaos Marines? Why do we have Marines Malevolent stealing new gear intended for a fledgeling Chapter to replace their old, battle-beaten, should-have-been-dumped-millennia-ago armor and weaponry, and then threatening to fight the Salamanders over said loot?

Simply being a Space Marine does not separate them from Human emotion and failings. They're suppose to be dutifiul and self-sacrificing, but as shown by the Heresy, things don't go perfectly.

Friendly fire happens a lot, less in modern days due to better technology in target identification.

Humans are greedy.

Mechanicus wants its toys and tries to clean up the evidence of their actions.

Lack of communication, unwillingness to listen to explanation, prejudices, etc.

Each Marine Chapter desires to continue its mission and the preservation of their blood-line/gene-seed for the glory of their Chapter. So when an upstart founding for a Chapter is started when an already veteran chapter is in dire need of supplies and gear, what do you f**king expect them to feel or do given the chance?



Honestly, the Imperium sounds about as cohesive as the Forces of Chaos.

You're projecting your own desire onto the preferred outcome. Chaos has always had a degenerating effect. Gaunt's Ghost series, the only time the Chaos forces were capable of halting the Sabbat Crusade for a length of time was when they *copied* the structure and organization of the Imperial Guard by creating the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. World Eaters devolving down from the organized and effective War Hounds Legion into the bloody-handed warriors that ignore orders, leave their flanks open, etc. Emperor's Children who forget discipline or battle plans due to being distracted by pleasure-thrills.

Whatever cohesiveness Chaos forces have is because they retain whatever training or organization they had before Betraying the Imperium. The Chaos gods don't necessarily care if a billion cultists need better training, they just want the blood and souls to flow.



True, they are different. However, the thing about gun shows is that more than a few are actual vendors. Meaning, they are someone who has a steady supply line and are selling there. Or at least as steady can get in a literal slice of Hell. But in any economy, when there are vendors, there are bigger businesses. In this case, Obliterator Cults. Forgeworlds. Heretek Cults. Dark Mechanicus Sects. All of whom constantly desire slaves, technology they haven't gotten to play with, resources to use for building, test sights, test subjects and many other things. Even STCs.

The Obliterator Cults do not produce anything other than obliterators -- Chaos Marines that have allowed themselves to be infected by the Obliterator Virus and become one with their weapons. It's a very nihilistic cult.

Hereteks and Dark Mechanicus groups are more interested in pursuing their particular technology and research. In the Siege of Castellax, then entire Ork invasion only occured because a single Iron Warrior corrupted-Techmarine wanted to keep anyone from learning about his research into teleportation technology -- NOT SHARING IT WITH OTHER CHAOS FORCES.

No STCs survive within Chaos hands. There was potentially one (Gaunt's Ghosts) but it was destroyed.



But hey, even though Chaos can maintain Dreadclaws, Kharybdis(es?), Terminator suits, Dreadnoughts, build daemon-engines, build Planetkillers, figure out the inner workings of planet-destroying xenos tech, I'm sure it is a reasonable standpoint to say they are technologically inferior to the Imperium.

Very, very few Chaos warbands maintain their gear to a suitable degree. Abaddon was able to build the Planetkiller because he was the Warmaster of Chaos and spent a great deal of time, energy, and material to build it -- only one -- before it was destroyed. He only had the infrastructure to build one.

Indeed, Chaos is technologically inferior to the Imperium. They make up for the lack with Warp magic and daemons.

[daboarder]

You're projecting your own desire onto the preferred outcome. Chaos has always had a degenerating effect. Gaunt's Ghost series, the only time the Chaos forces were capable of halting the Sabbat Crusade for a length of time was when they *copied* the structure and organization of the Imperial Guard by creating the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. World Eaters devolving down from the organized and effective War Hounds Legion into the bloody-handed warriors that ignore orders, leave their flanks open, etc. Emperor's Children who forget discipline or battle plans due to being distracted by pleasure-thrills.

well I've yet to see you or mystery actually quote any background material or authors, so I'm actually going to go with it being you guys projecting

[This Dave]

another thing to remember is that in 40k, the OLDER the imperial tech the better, so all that fancy new gear the SM's supposedly are getting "MADE"....its worse than the original gear the legions are rocking!

That's how the older Chaos codices worked. CSMs got all the same basic gear and vehicles as loyalists but their "old" stuff was actually better in most cases. The Reaper Autocannon used to be far superior to the Assault Cannon as it had longer range, higher strength, and better accuracy. Combi-weapons and even Combi-Bolters were superior in almost all respects to Storm Bolters. Khorne Beserkers has these awesome Chainaxes. And like now, CSMs could use a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CCW while the loyalists (except for Space Wolves) forgot how. Loyalists also ran away a lot more than CSMs because they didn't have access to cheap things thak made them Fearless or Marks. I could never understand why the loyalists "upgraded" to the new things as they were so much worse.

Now while the weapons have stayed the same the rules have changed. Assault Cannons are awesome and Storm Bolters are better than Combi-weapons in a protracted fight since they're one shot wonders now. CSMs still remember how to carry a knife for assaults but now loyalists actually DO know no fear.

However, the truly older stuff is still quite nice. Since now loyalists have started getting some old stuff back like Conversion Beamers and Grav weapons I'd like to see CSMs with Veterans of the Long War be able to take some of the stuff from the FW Heresy books. They may very well remember training with things only the loyalist Techmarines may recognize.

[daboarder]

yeah I want chem sprayers, marine mortars, things like ectoplasm cannon hellbrutes, wierd chaos tanks....etc

wierd and zanny tech, but no we don't get "replacements" we just get less

[Lexington]

It would be no issue if "in return" chaos would get useful stuff. The chaos fluff seems to be a cheap excuse for some ppl or gw to say "well, your stuff HAS to be crap.. its in the fluff!"

The difference between a 10 man CSM Squad and and a 10 man SM Squad is ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Chapter tactics. Where is the tradeoff?
Well, sure, the Chaos Codex is pretty clearly inferior to the Marine book, as it is to a swathe of other new Codexes. That's not what's being discussed, tho, is it? We're talking about the background. The background that's remained (relatively) the same even as editions, and the relative effectiveness of Chaos weaponry, have changed dramatically.


another thing to remember is that in 40k, the OLDER the imperial tech the better, so all that fancy new gear the SM's supposedly are getting "MADE"....its worse than the original gear the legions are rocking!
This is a common misconception, but not actually true, or at least not fully. Really old, pre-Imperial tech - think Conversion Beamers and Graviton Guns - is often strange and devastating, but the meat-and-potatoes equipment of the Space Marines was pretty clearly evolving up to and during the Heresy. That's always been true. Just look at the Heresy models - no Assault Cannons or Thunder Hammers, all combi-weaponry on the Terminators, etc. Chaos has always been using last year's (give or take 10,000) model. It's not necessarily less or more effective equipment - This Dave is misremembering 2nd Edition's rules as 2nd Edition's fluff - but it tends to be more brutal and direct. Kinda like Chaos Marines.


Umm, not quite. I am currently re-reading Mechanicum. One of the plot strands is that the Fabricator Locum notices that close, in system Legions (who will eventually be the loyalists) are not getting enough supplies. Whereas he notices that the supply chains are all maximised to provide Legions in support of the Warmaster.
Well, that's new, and at least somewhat contradicts the background that's been set in stone since 2nd Edition. Still, if one feels the need to square that circle (rather than ignore it due to fifteen or so years' precedent, plus a longstanding model line, which is where I stand on things), it could well be that the newer equipment simply wasn't around at the time, as Mechanicum takes place a bit before the Heresy proper, as I recall.

[daboarder]

This is a common misconception, but not actually true, or at least not fully. Really old, pre-Imperial tech - think Conversion Beamers and Graviton Guns - is often strange and devastating, but the meat-and-potatoes equipment of the Space Marines was pretty clearly evolving up to and during the Heresy. That's always been true. Just look at the Heresy models - no Assault Cannons or Thunder Hammers, all combi-weaponry on the Terminators, etc. Chaos has always been using last year's (give or take 10,000) model. It's not necessarily less or more effective equipment - This Dave is misremembering 2nd Edition's rules as 2nd Edition's fluff - but it tends to be more brutal and direct. Kinda like Chaos Marines.

Yeah no its not, give me some time and I'll even find you the quotes

imperial tech mostly peaked late heresy, there are a few odds and ends like the more widespread use of assault cannons (which are very prone to jamming and exploding, compared to the reaper which does not) and modifications such as the crusader and the razorback, but for the most part imperial tech peaked and has been on a slow downward spiral ever since. Every time the Chief techpriests on mars clone themselves more knowledge is lost.

[Lexington]

imperial tech mostly peaked late heresy, there are a few odds and ends like the more widespread use of assault cannons (which are very prone to jamming and exploding, compared to the reaper which does not) and modifications such as the crusader and the razorback, but for the most part imperial tech peaked and has been on a slow downward spiral ever since.
Well, they definitely stopped inventing much after the Heresy, but the older technology isn't particularly better. Again, look at the Heresy stuff from FW, where both the Loyalists and Traitors are using Reapers and the like. Clearly, somewhere in between then and "now", the Assault Cannon happened, and the Traitors weren't in on that deal. There's some big inconsistencies, of course, the most notable one I can think of right now being the fact that there seems to have been man-portable multi-meltas in the Heresy-era armory, whereas that used to not be the case (and, subsequently, why Chaos still doesn't have them). Can't really explain that one away. FW just messed it up.

As for quotes, though, here's a couple pertinent ones from the venerable old tome that defined the CSM arsenal - 2nd Edition's Codex: Chaos:


[T]he forces battling in the Horus Heresy fought with a mixture of the sometimes archaic armaments which they had used during the Crusade and previously unknown weapons based on arcane ancient technologies. Because the Traitoe Legions were the ones that had advanced furthest from Terra they were among the last to receive new weapon and armor. This means that the Space Marines fighting for Horus lacked many of the weapons which would be subsequently phased into the arsenals of the Imperium over the next millennia.


The weaponry used by Terminator squads was very different during the Heresy as tactical Dreadnought armor was still under development at that time. Only after centuries more warfare did Terminators emerge armed with the Assault cannon, storm bolters, Cyclone missile launcher and Thunder Hammers which became their hallmark within the Imperium.

[daboarder]

Fair points. But that one about the equipment supplies to the traitor legions is no longer true as pointed out by Dwest the HH novels state otherwise.

There's also the old story where the marines are attacking the orks, and one of them spends half his brainpower *****ing about new parts being slow and bad, and hoe technology has been lost and the tech priests don't make things the way they used to.

The affect and intention is that the whole galaxy is circling the drain and no one faction is better off than any other (maybe the nids, but they are an extinction even more than anything, a force fo nature) And that's something I'm good with as that's the whole point.

Its when the ill informed try and use the background as justification for the imperium being TEH AWESOMEROXZORS!!! and chaos being the homeless guy on the street that sets me off. ie: Mysterys suggestion that Chaos doesn't have supply lines or equipment or forge worlds, empires etc....

As to assault cannons, they aren't post heresy entirely, but it wasn't used as the legions preferred the more reliable reapers, remeber the old jam rule? it was becuase while they have a higher rate of fire they jam and explode.
Ruleswise the reaper and the Assault cannon used to be far more comparable, but the Assault cannon got a number of major boosts such as rending, and extra shot and losing jam, while the reaper has missed each change due to the codex always being "updated" when the design team is frakking about with a new direction


EDIT: Furthermore, your points both reference the traitor legions, and as certain forum members gleefully keep trying to cram down our throats, renegades are apparently the new thing. so they WOULD have later tech and they WOULD be able to maintain it.

[Kol_Saresk]

Wait, so you're going to credit Chaos with ALL of the actions and assaults taking place by the Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons? If the Imperium had *only* Chaos to worry about, the war wouldn't last more than a few decades, a century at most, to kick all of them into the Eye or Maelstrom and set up a strong fortification line around said areas -- basically penning them in.

That said, as you so clearly show here and as is shown in the rulebook, the IoM has ALL of that stuff on its plate and *still* has time to kick Abaddon and his cronies back into the Eye thirteen times and counting.I said that? Where? I could have sworn that I said that it looks like for all the multitudes the Imperium has, it seems those multitudes are just barely holding back the front lines. Also, maybe you need to reread the fluff. Specifically this bit:


'This war will cost us. We will pay in blood and souls, night after night. But the price will be victory. The Imperium's defences will be broken and we will never need to sneak and fight our way out of the Eye again. The empire's throat shall be forevermore bared to our blades. That is what Abaddon offers us.'

'He's offered us the same thing before,' one of the lords called.

'No,' Lucoryphus hissed, 'He hasn't. The other Crusades were merely crusades. The Despoiler left the Eye to achieve whatever Black Legion madness he wished to achieve. This one is different. It will be a war. We will break Cadia, and forever after be free to raid the Imperium at will.But wait, there's more.
"Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.'

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man. "

The first quote is from the epilogue of Void Stalker. The second bit is from the Eye of Terror campaign newsletter, detailing the results of the campaign.




Simply being a Space Marine does not separate them from Human emotion and failings. They're suppose to be dutifiul and self-sacrificing, but as shown by the Heresy, things don't go perfectly.

Friendly fire happens a lot, less in modern days due to better technology in target identification.

Humans are greedy.

Mechanicus wants its toys and tries to clean up the evidence of their actions.

Lack of communication, unwillingness to listen to explanation, prejudices, etc.

Each Marine Chapter desires to continue its mission and the preservation of their blood-line/gene-seed for the glory of their Chapter. So when an upstart founding for a Chapter is started when an already veteran chapter is in dire need of supplies and gear, what do you f**king expect them to feel or do given the chance?
So now you are projecting your desires onto the Imperium? Oh sweet irony.



You're projecting your own desire onto the preferred outcome. Chaos has always had a degenerating effect. Gaunt's Ghost series, the only time the Chaos forces were capable of halting the Sabbat Crusade for a length of time was when they *copied* the structure and organization of the Imperial Guard by creating the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. World Eaters devolving down from the organized and effective War Hounds Legion into the bloody-handed warriors that ignore orders, leave their flanks open, etc. Emperor's Children who forget discipline or battle plans due to being distracted by pleasure-thrills.

Whatever cohesiveness Chaos forces have is because they retain whatever training or organization they had before Betraying the Imperium. The Chaos gods don't necessarily care if a billion cultists need better training, they just want the blood and souls to flow.



The Obliterator Cults do not produce anything other than obliterators -- Chaos Marines that have allowed themselves to be infected by the Obliterator Virus and become one with their weapons. It's a very nihilistic cult.

Hereteks and Dark Mechanicus groups are more interested in pursuing their particular technology and research. In the Siege of Castellax, then entire Ork invasion only occured because a single Iron Warrior corrupted-Techmarine wanted to keep anyone from learning about his research into teleportation technology -- NOT SHARING IT WITH OTHER CHAOS FORCES.

No STCs survive within Chaos hands. There was potentially one (Gaunt's Ghosts) but it was destroyed.



Very, very few Chaos warbands maintain their gear to a suitable degree. Abaddon was able to build the Planetkiller because he was the Warmaster of Chaos and spent a great deal of time, energy, and material to build it -- only one -- before it was destroyed. He only had the infrastructure to build one.

Indeed, Chaos is technologically inferior to the Imperium. They make up for the lack with Warp magic and daemons.
You do realize that showing the Blood Pact and Sons of Sek(one of which was considered such an important force it got its own IA article) becoming organized and, according to the novels, one of the most feared enemies the Imperial Guard would have to fight, shows a non-degenerative quality, correct? Chaos does not degenerate. It waxes and wanes. It grows weak and it grows strong. At its peak, it will launch a Black Crusade, an event so dreaded that the Imperium considers each one of the minor twelve that did nothing but steal a daemon sword, Blackstone fortress and some other baubles and trinkets to be a complete nightmare. And that was before the 13th. Before the war.

[Katharon]

well I've yet to see you or mystery actually quote any background material or authors, so I'm actually going to go with it being you guys projecting

You might want to go back and check my posts. I've mentioned several authors (Abnett and McNeill among them) as well as numerous book titles.

[daboarder]

mentioning is all well and good but if we're going to be continuing this its not enough.

[Katharon]

mentioning is all well and good but if we're going to be continuing this its not enough.

You want specifics? Then read the following books:

Siege of Castellax
Skull Harvest
Gaunt's Ghosts series
Ragnar Blackmane's series
Ultramarines series
Horus Heresy series
Main Rule Book fluff section
etc...

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I feel like a lot of the frustration comes from is that Chaos seems to be the only faction with scarcity forced upon them so heavily. The Imperial Guard are frequently depicted as underequipped, but that doesn't prevent them from fielding armies of Carapace armored veterans with 3 plasmaguns per squad, that sort've thing.

I feel like Chaos would benefit from having a scarcity mechanic built into the army - say, for each Warpsmith/Techmarine included in the army, the player may either A) Purchase Archeotech options for 1 unit (i.e., Thunder Hammers), or B) Include 1 Archeotech unit (i.e., Land Speeders). Would allow access to those things it seems bizarre for Chaos to lack, but much less flexibly than Loyalists.

[Charon]

You want specifics? Then read the following books:

Siege of Castellax
Skull Harvest
Gaunt's Ghosts series
Ragnar Blackmane's series
Ultramarines series
Horus Heresy series
Main Rule Book fluff section
etc...

Half of the Books you mention contradict your statements heavily.

Gaunts Ghosts are extremely underequipped (not even tanks) and still this is not a state which is enforced rules wise. These books always tell you how imperial command tries to screw each other over and how they constantly try to get whole regiments killed by friendly fire so they dont have to share the success.

Ragnar series show how a single unit of Thousand sons nearly start an successful assault on fenris and how a single daemonprince of nurgle nerly destroys an entire world while sitting in an eldar prison and fighting sapce wolves and inquisition.

Ultramarines (I guess you mean Uriel Ventris) show a planet of the iron warriors where CSM are bred within days and far forgecitys that spawn daemonmachines on a regular basis. Further he shows how the empire corrupts even his primarchs designs on Tarsis Ultra and how a Regiment of the imperial guard declares an unarmed world "traitor" and conquer it to keep it to themselves (and how they have to live in their malfunct tanks because there are NO working supply lines).

Finally Horus heresy contradicts the Fluff we have known in many ways. Did the fluff mention that the traitor legion where far away from terra and didnt get all the cool new stuff, Horus Heresy books tell us that Horus manipulated the supply line so his Legions get all the cool stuff first and let the other Legions starve for supplys.

[Kol_Saresk]

Half of the Books you mention contradict your statements heavily.

Gaunts Ghosts are extremely underequipped (not even tanks) and still this is not a state which is enforced rules wise. These books always tell you how imperial command tries to screw each other over and how they constantly try to get whole regiments killed by friendly fire so they dont have to share the success.

Ragnar series show how a single unit of Thousand sons nearly start an successful assault on fenris and how a single daemonprince of nurgle nerly destroys an entire world while sitting in an eldar prison and fighting sapce wolves and inquisition.

Ultramarines (I guess you mean Uriel Ventris) show a planet of the iron warriors where CSM are bred within days and far forgecitys that spawn daemonmachines on a regular basis. Further he shows how the empire corrupts even his primarchs designs on Tarsis Ultra and how a Regiment of the imperial guard declares an unarmed world "traitor" and conquer it to keep it to themselves (and how they have to live in their malfunct tanks because there are NO working supply lines).

Finally Horus heresy contradicts the Fluff we have known in many ways. Did the fluff mention that the traitor legion where far away from terra and didnt get all the cool new stuff, Horus Heresy books tell us that Horus manipulated the supply line so his Legions get all the cool stuff first and let the other Legions starve for supplys.

Don't forget that the Ultramarines series also shows an army of Chaos followers attacking all of the worlds of Ultramar. And in one battle, there is a heretek running around making warmachines from farm equipment. And that the only way they got beat was not through superior supply lines or numbers, but by using a Shard of Erebus, which is a piece of the same anathame used on Horus that had been warp-tainted and perverted to become a tool of Chaos.

[This Dave]

Not having tanks doesn't make the Ghosts under equipped. Standard Imperial doctrine is to have units of only one type of unit (Infantry, Armor, Artillery). Even if they didn't, it would be kind of self defeating for a light infantry scouting force to have heavy armor.

[Charon]

Not having tanks doesn't make the Ghosts under equipped. Standard Imperial doctrine is to have units of only one type of unit (Infantry, Armor, Artillery). Even if they didn't, it would be kind of self defeating for a light infantry scouting force to have heavy armor.

Even a light scout force should have means of transport (chimaera), they are also always the last ones who get resupplied :D

[Kol_Saresk]

Not having tanks doesn't make the Ghosts under equipped. Standard Imperial doctrine is to have units of only one type of unit (Infantry, Armor, Artillery). Even if they didn't, it would be kind of self defeating for a light infantry scouting force to have heavy armor.

They had to get recruits by picking up the volunteers of a hive that had been destroyed and the remainder of another Guard regiment they were supposed to have amalgamated with. Usually they are shown at the butt end of the supply line, typically because their attitudes on certain things pisses of the upper regiments.

And in one book they were actually shown having light artillery pieces. Which then "disappeared". Really could have come in handy when they had to defend that fortress from the Blood Pact all by themselves.

[This Dave]

Even a light scout force should have means of transport (chimaera), they are also always the last ones who get resupplied :D

Not really. Apparently a LOT of Guard units are just simple foot infantry. The Imperial Armour Taros Campaign and Siege of Vraks in particular show this. There may be some vehicles for utility and/or officer transport but units like the Ghosts rely on the old Mk. 1 boot to get from place to place.

[This Dave]

They had to get recruits by picking up the volunteers of a hive that had been destroyed and the remainder of another Guard regiment they were supposed to have amalgamated with. Usually they are shown at the butt end of the supply line, typically because their attitudes on certain things pisses of the upper regiments.

And in one book they were actually shown having light artillery pieces. Which then "disappeared". Really could have come in handy when they had to defend that fortress from the Blood Pact all by themselves.

You'd be amazed at how much that happens here in the real world too. Thirty years ago when I was in the US Army it took me almost a year to get a M1 steel helmet replaced, the same type the Army used in Vietnam. We once got a lot of 9mm and belted 5.56 ammunition which would have been great if we weren't equipped with .45 caliber M1911s and 7.62mm M60s. We had a M1948 ambulance that had no place in our TO&E and a M2HB .50 cal machine gun our First Sergeant "borrowed" from an artillery unit we were temporarily stationed with. And on several occasions we still ate canned C-rations from Vietnam and earlier, which sadly was still tastier than the old first MREs.

This was in one of the largest militaries on one single planet. I can't imagine trying to supply all the Imperial Guard with all the various crap they need all across the galaxy. In the GG books despite Gaunt becoming fairly well respected in the crusade other units still have more juice to get first pick of the supplies.

[Kol_Saresk]

You'd be amazed at how much that happens here in the real world too. Thirty years ago when I was in the US Army it took me almost a year to get a M1 steel helmet replaced, the same type the Army used in Vietnam. We once got a lot of 9mm and belted 5.56 ammunition which would have been great if we weren't equipped with .45 caliber M1911s and 7.62mm M60s. We had a M1948 ambulance that had no place in our TO&E and a M2HB .50 cal machine gun our First Sergeant "borrowed" from an artillery unit we were temporarily stationed with. And on several occasions we still ate canned C-rations from Vietnam and earlier, which sadly was still tastier than the old first MREs.

This was in one of the largest militaries on one single planet. I can't imagine trying to supply all the Imperial Guard with all the various crap they need all across the galaxy. In the GG books despite Gaunt becoming fairly well respected in the crusade other units still have more juice to get first pick of the supplies.
But wasn;t is said earlier on this thread that the Imperium's strength lay in part to its supply lines? At least a Chaos warband can use the excuse its "operating behind enemy lines", but even they still manage to be a threat.

Yes, I see your point though Mr. Dave. But in the novels, it makes this seem not a matter of logistics, or rather not a matter of just logistics, but part of the internal politic theme being played with higher ups making sure their favored regiments get supplied first. I think at one point it goes through some of the Ghosts talking about using fires to heat up dead power packs and how it was a way to recharge them. They'd have nowhere near enough charge as they did the first time and were more likely to be burnt out, but it was the only way to basically conserve amo.

[Mr Mystery]

Well indeed.

And onto the Legion's kit. I often wonder how much was lost during the siege of Terra? After all, it was a pretty colossal dust up.

Would this go some way to explaining why certain things don't feature in the regular Chaos Armoury? Take Land Speeders. Not exactly easy to supply to the Legion's in the first place, but also very much a forward recon unit, thus open to attrition and arguably a high priority target for both sides.

When the siege was lifted, and the Legion's went their ways, is it realistic to say the traitor Legions would not have had the time for salvage operations? I don't think it is. And this would mean a lot of high value kit abandoned in the retreat, and left in the hands of the victors.

Net result? Traitors legions have fewer things left, and Imperials gain the salvage from both sides (though given Chaos' malign influence, how much help that was to the Imperium is another matter entirely)

[Charon]

Sure.
But what about Renegades? What about Legions which did not participate in the siege of Terra?
All in all it is the exact opposite of cherry picking :D
Chaos is even more different than BA, SW, DA,.. and they just got one codex which doesnt represent Legions well and is even worse in representing freshly fallen Renegades.

[Mr Mystery]

It's not about what is or isn't in your Codex, it's a background discussion.

Sure, less ancient renegades would likely have some shiny toys at the outset of their rebellions, but how many?

For instance, we know Landspeeders are considered rare within the Imperium, with the technology involved not only being very complex and beyond many tech adepts, but the raw materials required being in extremely short supply (same state as the Heresy, if you look at Jetbikes). So again, as per my earlier points, survival is a matter of priorities. Keeping your brothers stocked up on ammo and their personal kit in good nick is of greater importance than keeping the Speeder pool up and running.

Here's another thought.....do they engage in the same kind of warfare as before? Legions as covered were more IG Sledgehammer than SM Scalpel, so I guess it's kind of a yes there. Renegades? What are their mission parameters, and would that impact on what gear you prioritise for upkeep?

I'd imagine these priorities will fluctuate quite wildly, depending on a number of factors from Chapter/Legion preference (Iron Warriors would keep different kit entirely from Alpha Legion on account they fight differently) to the current state of the warband (doing well, go for the shiny. In a spot of bother, keep to the essentials)

[Charon]

By making this your opening sentence


So this is something I want to discuss with the community at large. And it stems from a common complaint amongst Chaos Space Marine players, namely that they just don't have the same spangly toys their non-heretical brothers get to play with.

you made it a codex discussion too. As nobody complains about missing "spangly toys" in their Chaos Warbands/Legions backgrounds. In fact the "spangly toys" ARE in the background (and even had a place in former codices, like the Iron Warriors Basilisk for example). There is everything from World Destroyer Spaceships to daemonic enhanced bolt pistol bullets in the background. Choas Knights, Drop Pods, rogue Inquisitors,... everything is mentioned in the background. The complaint is not "why its not in the background". The complain is "why it is not in the book"?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

When the siege was lifted, and the Legion's went their ways, is it realistic to say the traitor Legions would not have had the time for salvage operations?There are moments such as World Eaters popping back into the Inner Palace to pick up their dead (this is how they discovered Kharn still lived), or Abaddon leading a counter-attack to retake Horus' ship. While the Horus one might be a special case, the fact that the World Eaters, of all Legions, the kill-maim-burn dudes, had the time/will to pick up some corpses (presumably for their equipment, they don't seem like sentimental guys), indicates that there was some level of salvage op going on.

Also, on the note of missing "spangly toys", the current 'dex has art of a Black Legion fella toting a Plasma Cannon, while our previous Codex had this;
7685

[Katharon]

There are moments such as World Eaters popping back into the Inner Palace to pick up their dead (this is how they discovered Kharn still lived), or Abaddon leading a counter-attack to retake Horus' ship. While the Horus one might be a special case, the fact that the World Eaters, of all Legions, the kill-maim-burn dudes, had the time/will to pick up some corpses (presumably for their equipment, they don't seem like sentimental guys), indicates that there was some level of salvage op going on.

Also, on the note of missing "spangly toys", the current 'dex has art of a Black Legion fella toting a Plasma Cannon, while our previous Codex had this;
7685

You do realize that these operations happened before (a) the World Eaters truly fell to Chaos or their Primarch became a Daemon prince and that (b) the Black Legion still broke up into various factions and warbands once they ran to the Eye of Terror. Before the end of the Heresy, the only Legions that might be considered to have truly broken down in discipline and lost their tactical edge would be the Emperor's Children. However, once the Traitor Legions are pushed back into the Eye and begin to truly live within the realm of Chaos, they break apart and for the most part lose their cohesion as legions. Only a couple are able to retain various levels of organization; with the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion being to two that best retain their martial organization and ability after the Scouring.

[Mr Mystery]

Angron.....erm....HH series has contradicted that bit.

No spoilers, but read Betrayer.

[Katharon]

Angron.....erm....HH series has contradicted that bit.

No spoilers, but read Betrayer.

Did. And no, it doesn't. Battle of Istavaan V happened before Lorgar's mini-crusade against Ultramar, meaning that Kharn was saved before Angron fell to Chaos. And it's only after Angron falls to Chaos that the World Eaters truly decay and lose their organizational edge -- which they were already losing due to the Nails.

[Nabterayl]

Here's another thought.....do they engage in the same kind of warfare as before? Legions as covered were more IG Sledgehammer than SM Scalpel, so I guess it's kind of a yes there. Renegades? What are their mission parameters, and would that impact on what gear you prioritise for upkeep?

I'd imagine these priorities will fluctuate quite wildly, depending on a number of factors from Chapter/Legion preference (Iron Warriors would keep different kit entirely from Alpha Legion on account they fight differently) to the current state of the warband (doing well, go for the shiny. In a spot of bother, keep to the essentials)
This is a point that I think has not gotten enough attention in general. Your equipment mix is not only determined by what you can acquire. It's also determined by what missions you plan to undertake (and secondarily, what contingencies you want to prepare for\).

What are the typical loyalist mission patterns? There's smash and grab (usually minus the grab), where a strike force flies to an identified vulnerable target, destroys it, and extracts. There's assault, where a strike force identifies a strong target, destroys it, and extracts. There's force multiplication, where a strike force acts indirectly to enhance the capabilities of other troops by providing a morale, training, or expertise boost. And that's ... about it. There are some weird border cases like VIP protection detail (e.g., space marines in or accompanying an inquisitor's warband), and situations where space marines are forced to do things they aren't really suited to due to the exigencies of combat. But the plan is pretty much always some variation of "we're not here to fight" or "we're here to kill this specific thing, and after that, peace out."

Is that actually the CSM way of war? I'm not sure that it is. There are certain similarities, of course. Like loyalists (and any sensible soldier), CSM hate to pick on things their own size (even moreso than loyalists in general, I imagine). Like loyalists, CSM act as force multiplication on a regular basis (a CSM warband isn't necessarily composed 100% of marines, and certainly in the great siege operations people have been citing most of the work was done by non-marines).

The major difference I see is in the oft-cited looting. Loyalists generally don't want anything out of their target other than its death ("No, Mr. Bond ..."). They don't even generally care whether it gets conquered or not. If the Guard can't take and hold the objective, that's the Guard's problem, the Munitorum's problem, the Ecclesiarchy's problem ... it's almost certainly not the chapter's problem. But I imagine CSM generally do care, at least much more often. If they don't grab the loot, if they don't conquer the targeted region ... that's probably the warband's problem. They're much more likely to depend on being on the ground longer.

How is this likely to influence the way a warband kits itself out? When it makes a contract with the Dark Mechanicum, when it trades for gear on the black market ... what sort of equipment profile is it attempting to achieve?

It seems to me that, in general, this argues for a CSM codex that reflects a more methodical approach to warfare than the loyalist one. On the one hand, this suggests to me that light and fast units like Land Speeders and drop pods would be less prevalent even if CSM had equal access to them - they just don't fit the mission profile curve as well. On the other hand, it also suggests to me that there should be more scouting options (infiltrating Chosen is a familiar example from the last codex) - somebody needs to identify the target and provide the reconnaissance necessary for planning the attack. Is that cultists? Is it marines? Whoever it is, it isn't in the codex.

[Charon]

I actually love that POV.
I guess it depends on the Legions MO which equipment they take to their raiding partys and also which stage of assault we are talking of.
Dark Eldar are raiders in general and these spiky space faerys rely heavily on fast assault craft, so i would not discard bikes, trikes landspeeder,... so quickly. Nightlords want to break their prey by sheer terror, thats why they rely on raptor cults to shock onto their enemys. Also nothings says "you are screwed" more than a few tons of steel falling down on your comrades spewing a band of pissed off superhumans.
Alpha Legion on the other hand would have prepared long before and defensive mechanisms may become "suddenly" defunct, units of PDF may "suddenly" turn on their former friends,... while a deathguard assault may have announced itself by a virulent plague creating zombies before the actual threat in form of rotting stinkmarines even sets foot on the planet.
Iron Warriors may land all their shiny big guns and line them up before blowing the enemys resistance to bloody pieces and leaving their precious bunker system only to look for undamaged loot.

[SaveModifier]

Did. And no, it doesn't. Battle of Istavaan V happened before Lorgar's mini-crusade against Ultramar, meaning that Kharn was saved before Angron fell to Chaos. And it's only after Angron falls to Chaos that the World Eaters truly decay and lose their organizational edge -- which they were already losing due to the Nails.

That was the first time Kharn was found on a battlefield surrounded by his enemies not quite as dead as they thought he was, they also found him in a similar state after the Seige of Terra, when Angron was very much a Daemon Prince and the Legion had embraced Khorne to some extent

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Did. And no, it doesn't. Battle of Istavaan V happened before Lorgar's mini-crusade against Ultramar, meaning that Kharn was saved before Angron fell to Chaos.Huh? I was referring to Kharn being saved from near death at the Battle of Terra - which happened after all the Ultramar business, yes? Are you referring to one of the previous times Kharn was thought dead, only to return?

Anyways, my point was that after the fighting on Terra, the World Eaters (who were at that point properly Khornate, right?), recovered various bits and bobs from the Inner Palace, so we do have an example of a Chaotic Legion working to retrieve stuff at the Battle of Terra, as a counterpoint to the suggestion that the Traitors did not have the chance for a salvage operation.

[SaveModifier]

I assume anyone chiming in here has read ADBs Night Lords books? If not, do it now, finiest 40K writing ever in my humble opinion.

That really gave the sense of exactly how screwed the traitors were, 10th Company is down to 60 odd guys at the start of the book after 1000 years (to them, they say 200 in the first book but thats retconned in the second to about 1000) of war, they have one working Thunderhawk, a few rhinos, they're stripping down everything they can to keep the essentials working, they are having to scavange weapons and armour from their own fallen or those of other Space Marines and hope they can get it all working well enough to fight with.

Most other legions are thought to be in a similar or worse situation, the level of in-fighting between factions and legions or even companies pays a heavier toll than continuing the long war, more traitors seem to die at the ends of other traitors than anything else in the books.

The Black Legion are in a better position because Abaddon, through coersion and trickery and force of will is holding them together as well as he can, but even then, its a struggle for them to maintain supplies and man power.

They don't have rhino variants because they need rhinos to get to battle, you have to use all your spares to keep the rhinos moving, the other stuff is similarly explained, except Drop Pods, no idea why they don't have those, they really should, I guess thats more a "no model, not in the codex" thing than anything.

[Nabterayl]

the other stuff is similarly explained, except Drop Pods, no idea why they don't have those, they really should
I haven't read the Night Lords books, no. Do the characters ever wish they had drop pods? I mean, what would they use them for?

That's an honest question. A drop pod is not a way to get to the planet's surface. For one thing, it leaves you stranded unless you have a dropship (in which case, you could have used the dropship to get to the planet's surface); for another thing, it's expensive - even loyalists go back and pick up their drop pods whenever possible. A drop pod is only useful as a way to get to a fight. And it comes with lots of drawbacks - principally, the inability to run away. Even if you win the fight you dropped into (which you dropped into without heavy equipment), you are then left on the ground with no heavy equipment, no resupply, and no transportation faster than your power armor.

It's good at what it does, but it's a very specialized tool that is useful for very specific situations. It wouldn't surprise me if most CSM thought of drop pods as pretty far down the "to acquire" list.

EDIT: I mean, all of which is why CSM only have access to the Dreadclaw, but then again, those things fell out of favor with the Imperium because they were hard to maintain, right? It can't be easier for CSM to maintain them, even if there are still some kicking around.

[SaveModifier]

I haven't read the Night Lords books, no. Do the characters ever wish they had drop pods? I mean, what would they use them for?

That's an honest question. A drop pod is not a way to get to the planet's surface. For one thing, it leaves you stranded unless you have a dropship (in which case, you could have used the dropship to get to the planet's surface); for another thing, it's expensive - even loyalists go back and pick up their drop pods whenever possible. A drop pod is only useful as a way to get to a fight. And it comes with lots of drawbacks - principally, the inability to run away. Even if you win the fight you dropped into (which you dropped into without heavy equipment), you are then left on the ground with no heavy equipment, no resupply, and no transportation faster than your power armor.

It's good at what it does, but it's a very specialized tool that is useful for very specific situations. It wouldn't surprise me if most CSM thought of drop pods as pretty far down the "to acquire" list.

I don't think they ever wish they had drop pods, I think they use the Thunder Hawk for the most part, and even that is barely holding together and they don't have enough ammo for its Heavy Bolters. Its fun seeing inside the head of Talos, a practical and smart Astartes amongst the lunacy of the Traitors who have been corrupted too much now, but yeah, I agree with you from the practical stand point of drop pods, they're a massive waste of resources and I could imagine a force without a reliable manufacting base (as much as one exists in the 41st millenium) would quicly find themselves without.

There is a lot of stuff about Hell's Iris too, where Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs live, it seems to be a sort of port for all sorts of renegades and malcontents, where Chaos Space Marines can go for resupply although they avoid it where ever possible because Huron exacts a hefty toll.

Really worth reading, very cool books, Talos seems to really hate and resent the Traitors and they all seem to hate him, all sense other brotherhood has been shattered by the Heresy, where the Space Marines were united by the Codex Astartes and formed smaller groups and reformed their bonds of brotherhood, whereas the Chaos Space Marines were shattered and split, they no longer trusted anyone, after all, they're all Oathbreakers who can't be trusted, so evern memebers of a squad find it hard to rely on each other fully. Every Traitor is out for himself, first and foremost, most have no real high-minded ideals, they follow the champions of chaos more out of a desire for personal power than continuing the Long War, only individuals like Abaddon can even stop them fighting each other for long enough to get them to try and every time he's failed because the warbands betrayed him and did their own thing.

So, yeah, read the books because I think it clears up the bit where I think people are mistaken when they talk about The Legions in 40k, in 40k there are no Legions, there are warbands, chapters, companys, groups who ally with each other for convienice.

The thousands strong forces of the Pre Heresy, they don't exist any more, logistically they couldn't work in that envirnoment for long, so, when times got tough, they split and fought over the scraps they had left.

I think the current Chaos book shows that quite well, there aren't many vehicle variants because they can only afford to keep the most essential up and running, Chaos Space Marines are expensive because there just aren't many left now who aren't Chosen or Possesed or have been swept up by one of the cults, they have to rely on the Daemon Engines and possesed vehicles because its the only way they can make new warmachines effeciently, cultists are cheap and available in abundance because when a warband marches, they would have no worries about sending in the poor deluded fools in first to die.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Eh, that destitution's only half the story, remember, the forces of Chaos have their own, homemade spacecraft (only the smaller classes, larger are captured). Vehicles that have to be measured in kilometres. They've developed and mass-produced completely non-Daemonic vehicles, such as the Hell Blade and Talon. There's active experimentation and improvement going on, along with mass-production at a frightening scale.

Chaos' capability fluctuates depending on the needs of the story. A tale of a ragtag band of antiheroes is going to show a very different side of Chaos than those stories describing armies with the strength and supplies to bring entire solar systems to heel.

The 40k universe is large and flexible enough for both of these extremes, and everything in between. A pity their Codex is not.

[Nabterayl]

I actually love that POV.
I guess it depends on the Legions MO which equipment they take to their raiding partys and also which stage of assault we are talking of.
Dark Eldar are raiders in general and these spiky space faerys rely heavily on fast assault craft, so i would not discard bikes, trikes landspeeder,... so quickly.
I don't mean to discount them entirely. But the presence of bikes and jump troops makes a lot more sense to me than the presence of Land Speeders. A Land Speeder is a lot more resource-intensive than a bike, and offers only marginally more combat power. It's somewhat more heavily armed and also faster, meaning it's ... good at hitting and running away, which is the MO for pretty much all loyalist chapters when they engage in direct action.

It is totally useful and I'm sure plenty of CSM would love to have working Land Speeders (and undoubtedly some of them do). But they aren't very tough, and like all vehicles, they aren't very good at holding ground for any period of time (in fact they're way, way worse at holding ground than almost any other space marine vehicle). Yeah, the crew can get out, but then it's just an incredibly expensive transport for two guys. If your combat doctrine revolves fighting to steal stuff (and as far as I can tell, that's one thing pretty much all flavors of CSM have in common), it totally makes sense to me that for the most part CSM would rely on jump troops and bikes for their fast elements and let the Land Speeders fall by the wayside. You still value fast stuff to some extent; it's just that Land Speeders are luxury items in the "fast stuff" catalogue.

[Charon]

Most of the books are "special cases" to make things more interesting. When we read Gaunts Ghosts we accept that they are "special" and not the average IG Army. We dont point at the Tanith Regiment and say "Here in the fluff you have no tanks and just very few heavy weapons! the IG Codex should be like this!"
Uriel Ventris thinks outside the box of the "holy" Codex Astartes. But people tend to think he is a typical Ultramarine, ignoring his stuck up buddys who would still point at a paragraph in the codex when this tactic will bring certain death and a slight variation would mean victory.
Again its not about "the same toys" its about "different toys in the same quality and quantity". The Background of CSM is pretty rich in terms of aircraft, daemon engines, warp powered wargear, living armor,... its just... the codex is very poor on these things but very rich on "lol you have to be a lot worse than the loyal guys".
There may not be Legions caounting 10.000+ Marines anymore but there are still "Warbands" vastly outnumbering space marine chapters with established base of Operation and supply lines out there.
I also guess that "warfare" is a lot simpler beeing a CSM (if you dont just fight each other).
Rogue Traders and Covois are quite easy to crack, most imperial (or alien) worlds have next to none considerable planetary force and the imperium doesnt care about a few worlds. If the imperium decides to care it can take decades before they react at all.
Space marines on the other hand are always there where the battle is hardest and the place is most dangerous. Which will lead to more wounded or dead in the process of a campain than a CSM raiding party will have on a weekend of looting farm planets.

[DrBored]

I'm not going to lie, reading through this, and many of the subsequent posts, has indeed opened my eyes to the reasoning behind the current state of affairs with Chaos Marines.

Indeed, there are things that would be easier to maintain, and there would be things that they don't have access to because those things are relatively new to the Imperium as a whole. I can understand that. I can even understand why they wouldn't have ready access to fleets of Drop Pods or other aircraft, and might have to use other methods to get their troops to battle.

Looking at other armies, Space Marines and their Drop Pods are quite unique. The only other thing like it is the Mycetic Spore. Tau have to walk onto the table and they're supported by some of the most advanced technology across a plethora of races. They don't have things like drop pods. Dark Eldar, with how fast they are, still have to follow the same rules for Deep Strike, even with their vehicles.

Some of the trouble that people, including myself, seem to have with Chaos not having access to some of the Space Marine toys is pretty straightforward, and it goes something like this...

"BOBBY HAS A SHINY NEW TOY SO I WANT ONE TOO!!!"

Now, that aside, there are other, harder pills to swallow. Let's take the Dreadnought for example.

Space Marines have 3 kinds of Dreadnought that can be taken in the Elites or the Heavy support section, depending on your other choices, and they can even take Drop Pods to bring them down to the surface where they're needed most.

Chaos Marines have 1 kind of Dreadnought that can only be taken in the highly competitive Elite slot, and is forced to waddle across the table where it is the most vulnerable.

Now, there are other walkers that are forced to walk across the table. We're not alone. The Talos Pain Engine, Eldar Wraithlord, the Imperial Guard Sentinels even, few of those have any sort of alternative way of getting onto the table, which really speaks of a weakness of walker vehicles more than Chaos being treated unfairly.

Well. I'm not really sure where I was going with this argument, but let me conclude by saying that the responses in this topic have indeed opened my eyes, and hopefully someday we'll be able to put together half-decent lists with Chaos Marines, despite the lack of Drop Pod, the lack of ATSKNF, and the lack of lots and lots of different Land Raider variants.

[Charon]

I guess the point is:
If you want to field a half decent CSM List better dont bring any CSM to the table :D

[DrBored]

I guess the point is:
If you want to field a half decent CSM List better dont bring any CSM to the table :D

This makes me so sad...

[SaveModifier]

Chaos Space Marines may only have one type of dreadnaught, but they have three daemon engines in the codex, access to Contemptors from FW and the gorgeous Decimator as well!

[Charon]

Not in the codex and thus not playable in many gaming groups / turneys.
The Daaemon engines just got a little bit more pale when you compare them to the shiny new toy, the knight.

[daboarder]

Chaos Space Marines may only have one type of dreadnaught, but they have three daemon engines in the codex, access to Contemptors from FW and the gorgeous Decimator as well!

You do realise that loyalists have more dread and raider variants than we have tanks and daemon enginre combined right?

[SaveModifier]

If you're counting the knight, Chaos has that Lord of Battle or Skulls or what have you

And any group worth its salt allows FW units now, surely, there has been enough signals from GW and FW that they're official.

[Nabterayl]

I think there are all sorts of things to like about the CSM codex from a flavor perspective. There are also lots of things that could be better from a flavor perspective.

[SaveModifier]

You do realise that loyalists have more dread and raider variants than we have tanks and daemon enginre combined right?

You do realise that Space Marines account for more sales than all other armies combined, right?


I think there are all sorts of things to like about the CSM codex from a flavor perspective. There are also lots of things that could be better from a flavor perspective.

I think, like with most of the current codexes, the fluff is there and encouraged, however, they're easily breakable, which makes people think (mainly because they read it online) that their armies aren't very good, most people how ever, aren't going to play in tournaments against opponents where you need maximum efficiency, if both players take fluffy, non minmaxed lists, the game is pretty even, i think the missions in some of the dataslates and tomes really highlight the narrative elements of an army and how it should be played to match the fluff and should be encouraged to be used more, I'd like to see them put some of these narrative missions in WD Weekly and encourage people to play them rather than sticking to the basic rulebook ones.

[daboarder]

I think I threw up a little reading some of the posts in the last day!

People will just ignore whatever they want in the name of their own vindication wont they. Ive yet to see any background quotes from the ****ty marine crusade.

Hey save, you mention A D-B, would you like to know that he disagrees that chaos marines are all under equipped and ragged? Ive thrown up his post earlier might be good to go read it.

CSMs build empires, have forgeworlds and are predominantly well equipped. This is printed in black and white

[SaveModifier]

I think I threw up a little reading some of the posts in the last day!

People will just ignore whatever they want in the name of their own vindication wont they. Ive yet to see any background quotes from the ****ty marine crusade.

Hey save, you mention A D-B, would you like to know that he disagrees that chaos marines are all under equipped and ragged? Ive thrown up his post earlier might be good to go read it.

CSMs build empires, have forgeworlds and are predominantly well equipped. This is printed in black and white

Yes, but not as Legions, a few hundred Space Marines can build an empire, especially on the fringes of the Imperium, they have access to forges of the rogue elements of the mechanicum, but who knows what services they'd have to trade for them, they're just not the Legions that once were, they split and join each other at a moments notice, a large army might stay with their Daemon Primarch in the Eye, but many will have gone off to do their own thing, the important thing about the Traitors is that the bond of brotherhood is gone, they are now loyal only to themselves, not to a goal or the Emperor, the Warmaster or even their Primarch, why would they be when they can go out on their own and earn the favour of the Gods for themselves and become as powerful as a Primarch in their own right?

I'm sorry that the fluff and the game rules don't conform to what you want them to, but its your game, you can remake whatever you like in your own image.

[daboarder]

I guess you cant read? Or dont want to? Same thing really but round and round we go.....

Heres a hint:angron lead how many zerkers against armageddon?

Oh and this isnt even about the legions


Ill put it in big letter

QUOTE IT!

[Nabterayl]

Heres a hint:angron lead how many zerkers against armageddon?
Lexicanum doesn't cite forces, but Warhammer Wiki cites (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_War_for_Armageddon) four companies of CSM warbands. Do you have a better citation? Data is always good.

[daboarder]

Ill throw up the stories from the brb and csm codex once I get to work

[Charon]

If you're counting the knight, Chaos has that Lord of Battle or Skulls or what have you

Just that it is a Lord of Battle, gives extra VP to the enemy, allows the enemy to take different warlord traits, is 0-1 IF you play with escalation rules, is not scoring and (like most Chaos units) is HUGELY overpriced.
Unlike the knight which is scoring, you can take more than one and your enemy gets no benefits from escalation as they do not count as lords of war and even if you dont agree to play escalation there are knights with D and superheavy.... because... hey its Imperium.



And any group worth its salt allows FW units now, surely, there has been enough signals from GW and FW that they're official.

YOUR opinion, which is shared by a very small minority in all gaming groups I know (even inside GW stores most players agree on not using FW)
Of the 50 - 60 gamers I know in my area not even a handful would even agree to play escalation/stronghold outside the apocalypse framework.


You do realise that Space Marines account for more sales than all other armies combined, right?

PERFECT argument. Space Marines have better sales so they get better units. Plain simple and exact what CSM players feel they get treaded. Lower class Marine players. Thanks for putting that in clear words, its really encuraging to hear that. Maybe this will silence the "maybe your next supplement will be good!" people out there. They dont need to put up quality work, its "just chaos".


I think, like with most of the current codexes, the fluff is there and encouraged, however, they're easily breakable, which makes people think (mainly because they read it online) that their armies aren't very good, most people how ever, aren't going to play in tournaments against opponents where you need maximum efficiency, if both players take fluffy, non minmaxed lists, the game is pretty even, i think the missions in some of the dataslates and tomes really highlight the narrative elements of an army and how it should be played to match the fluff and should be encouraged to be used more, I'd like to see them put some of these narrative missions in WD Weekly and encourage people to play them rather than sticking to the basic rulebook ones.

If you try to build a "fluffy" chaos list go on and try. Maybe you are the genius we have all waited for. I play chaos since 2nd edition. I build fluffy lists since then. I play against fluffgamers, powergamers, tournament gamers (former tournament gamer myself arounf 3rd/4th edition). And its not even remotely fun. And thats what I play for. FUN. Chaos used to be an exremelf fun and fulfilling army. Now its binary and unsatisfying. Even my Dark Eldar with their 5th edition rules are more fun. The more interesting point is: if I play my chaos marines with the loyalist codex, It feels like I got a complete, fullfilling and FUN army again.
But hey... we are 2nd class players... we dont deserve "fun".

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yes, but not as Legions, a few hundred Space Marines can build an empire, especially on the fringes of the Imperium, they have access to forges of the rogue elements of the mechanicum, but who knows what services they'd have to trade for them,90% of the time they trade either slaves or souls to the Dark Mechanicum, and the Imperium has a hilarious amount of those lying around.

And yeah, Legions are gone-ish, but most Warbands' tactics will still be thoroughly influenced by whichever contributed to them most significantly. For instance, in a Codex with Legion/Warband Tactics options, The Sanctified, a Khornate Warband which started around a core of Word Bearers, would be represented by Word Bearer Legion/Warband Tactics, with everyone purchasing the Mark of Khorne.

[Nabterayl]

yeah, Legions are gone-ish, but most Warbands' tactics will still be thoroughly influenced by whichever contributed to them most significantly.
I think this gets into finer details of what influences codex design. A lot of warbands clearly still have a certain ... regimental spirit, as it were, about their legion. But a legion is no longer a bureaucratically meaningful entity, and it doesn't occupy the same place in the larger military as it used to, the chain of command is radically flattened or shattered, its force levels and force composition are radically different, its supply chain is radically different, its guiding mission is radically different. In all these ways, the legions don't exist.

But which of those things should influence codex design, and in what way? Those are questions on which I see a lot of disagreement.

One might take the point of view that, inasmuch as the warriors still think of themselves as part of a legion, the doctrine of that legion should influence its descendants' doctrine. But one might also take the point of view that regimental spirit has nothing at all to do with combat doctrine, or at least very little compared to other factors such as your political mission, what your supply chain looks like, where and how you get your recruits, and the environments (militarily, socially, economically, politically) in which you fight. You might think that regimental spirit should be expressed in a chapter tactics sort of way, or in the Force Organization Chart, or the availability of certain units, or not at all. You might think that all those other factors should influence army-wide special rules, or the FoC, or points costs, or the availability of certain units, or nothing at all.

All these perspectives seem correct to me in that a rational person (or more narrowly, a rational 40K fan) could hold them. But I don't see any kind of consensus, among fans or at GW, as to which of them influences what when designing a codex.

[daboarder]

If chapter tactics are good enough to represent the loyalists, whose legions we're specifically broken long before the chaos ones would have been. And are furthermore expressly forbidden by primarchal decree from maintaining teh support structure they did during the heresy on pain of excommunication and death. Then I fail to see why such a method would not readily translate to the legion warbands of chaos, whose size ranges from a handful of marines to 10'000 marines or more, who were never forbidden from practicing warfare as they knew it, and who furthermore had no reason to ever doubt the superiority of their way of war. Even the loss during the heresy was not enough to shake that faith, as blame for it was laid at teh feet of the sons of horus and horus himself rather than the methodologies of war partaken by the legions.

in simple terms, there is more difference in the tactical doctrine of a word bearers warband and a world eaters warband, than there is between the raven guard chapter and the ultramarines, yet one is given rules to represent that difference and the other is not.

Nab, as to the Armageddon world eaters. the easiest quote to find is in the CSM codex.


A horde from the daemon worlds of the eye of terror, led by Angron and accompanied by massed warbands of World Eaters.

That one doesn't have specifics but there is a section (I think in the rules book) that details the First war for Armageddon and there was the 200 year crusade led by Angron and a re-gathered World Eaters host, through the Imperium. Ill look for it and edit this post later.

edit: From Lex

It was the culmination of years of preparation by the Daemon Primarch Angron, favoured of Khorne, to re-unify the World Eaters after their shattering at the hands of Khârn the Betrayer after the Battle of Skalathrax.

more to come

Dominion of Fire, Thats another such event!

50'000 spend 200 years carving a bloody path through the imperium.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Heh, yeah. Doesn't matter if you call yourself a World Eater, Skulltaker, War Hound or Blood-Buddy, when papa Angron shouts "Whose up for a fight!", plenty of fellas with his geneseed will show up.

[daboarder]

Heh, yeah. Doesn't matter if you call yourself a World Eater, Skulltaker, War Hound or Blood-Buddy, when papa Angron shouts "Whose up for a fight!", plenty of fellas with his geneseed will show up.

yup and you don't fight like an Emperors Child when you do or bad things are likely to happen

[Nabterayl]

So that raises another issue about codex design. I don't feel like First Armageddon or the Dominion of Fire are business as usual for Chaos marines. They were orchestrated by a primarch, and in the latter case, they were specifically motivated by the fact that the legion existed in name only.

At the same time, they do happen, just like Black Crusades, and the fact that they happen suggests that a logistical capacity capable of supporting a significant interstellar campaign is something that can be cobbled together from time to time, at least for short periods ("short" in 40K terms, meaning on the order of decades or a century or two).

Are these once-a-millennium events the sorts of things a codex should cover? Or should the look-and-feel of a codex be more influenced by normal operations?

[daboarder]

So that raises another issue about codex design. I don't feel like First Armageddon or the Dominion of Fire are business as usual for Chaos marines. They were orchestrated by a primarch, and in the latter case, they were specifically motivated by the fact that the legion existed in name only.

At the same time, they do happen, just like Black Crusades, and the fact that they happen suggests that a logistical capacity capable of supporting a significant interstellar campaign is something that can be cobbled together from time to time, at least for short periods ("short" in 40K terms, meaning on the order of decades or a century or two).

Are these once-a-millennium events the sorts of things a codex should cover? Or should the look-and-feel of a codex be more influenced by normal operations?

they happen fairly often, maybe a third of the "timeline" events involve interactions with the primarchs, even if it is only Abbadon wondering around making pacts with them. There is certainly more background support for such events being possible with or without a primarch than there is support for other things rules are based upon. (no I'm not asking for primarchs iun 40k, I think the table top is not the place for them outside of 30k)

But ultimately the point is that unlike the loyalist ones the traitor primarchs are still alive and do take an active part in the galaxy whne they feel like it, its all wrapped up in what makes the legions interesting and to most chaos players the legions and gods are what draws us into the army. In a very real sense Chaos is as much a heart of the 40k story as the Imperium itself, they are and should be dark reflections of each other, as the Imperium fights chaos it sinks deeper and deeper into the mire and ultimately becomes that which it was trying to prevent, which is kinda the point.

edit: As to these events happening with out the primarchs? Yes they happen also, abbadon is the most obvious and extreme example but Huron's empire within the maelstrom is another, and there are other co-ordinated incursions within the background, without even mentioning the chaos empires within imperial space such as the sabbat worlds, whose fate (while currently unknown) is by no means the only such empire within the imperiums boarders.

[Nabterayl]

That's true about the primarchs, but at the same time, as the codex says:


Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. The most fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods. Others give themselves over to possession by Daemons, allowing the monstrous creatures of the Warp to venture out into reality clad in the flesh of Space Marines.

In the ever-changing delirium of the Daemon worlds, most Chaos Space Marines have survived the worst of the warping influence of Chaos by keeping their sense of purpose. They
are carried forth by ancient warships that have survived from the time of the Heresy but are now encrusted with millennia of baroque decoration and scarred by old battle wounds. The Traitor Legions also capture drifting space hulks and refit them to use as vast battle barges carrying thousands of troops. With these, the warbands of Chaos go forth to despoil the worlds of the Emperor, enslave his followers and steal his wealth so that they might carry out further attacks. Thus, the punitive raids of the Chaos Space Marines are an ever-present threat to the worlds of the Imperium, especially around the Eye of Terror.

That seems to me like a fairly strong statement that the baseline for CSM activity is basically ordinary space marine activity, with a self-serving twist. Every now and then you get a whole lot of marines together, but in general, they wage war through force multiplication. Older sources indicate that most of the "horde" at the First War for Armageddon, for instance, was either cultists, mutants, or daemons, and even the 4th edition CSM codex notes that the Dominion of Fire sparked wars and rebellions in over 70 sectors, right? Then you've got your direct action, which is still done - for the most part - by relatively small numbers of marines ("companies and warbands"), whose object is merely to despoil - which is to say, to show up, smash a lot of stuff, and run away. No different than what loyalist marines do, except for the fact that loyalists are less likely to steal stuff as they're running away. And for the most part, those relatively small numbers of marines are not acting in any sort of concert ("pursues his own destiny").

I don't mean to suggest that Chaos space marines are incapable of orchestrating or participating in interstellar campaigns of great magnitude; they clearly are. I only mean to argue that normal CSM activity is the same small-time stuff that normal loyalist SM activity consists of, with the twist that it's conducted out of necessity, for survival (whether that means literally despoiling enough resources to keep the warband able to fight, or something more political, or even just to keep from going insane).

[Mr Mystery]

There's so many sources out there, I think it's a matter of personal player preference. It's clear that whilst Chaos do perform as raiders a fair amount of the time, with the right direction, they're capable of fighting much as the Legions of old once did. But kind of hard to make sweeping statements about how any given player's force fights most of the time.

Which to me is the great joy of the background. So much is left unsaid, or when it is said, is gloriously subjective or otherwise ambiguous. It gives us hobbyists a lot of leeway.

Me, I don't see Chaos as being a permanently cohesive threat. In my mind, they're as likely to be self defeating as defeated, as the various Warbands go for the glory (just started re-reading Storm of Iron, which helps!). For further context, this is also my favourite aspect of Skavendom in Warhammer. If they'd just stop their internal feuding, plotting and misanthropy and just get on with it, they'd long since have conquered all the Dwarf-things, Man-things and Elf-things :)

[lattd]

Isn't there instances where the chaos gods mess with each others plans? When your happy to tun on each other just to gain some special "gift" you won't be cohesive. I understand the complaints about the accept challenge rules, but if your a being whos trying to gain favor with a god, killing that big stompy thing or the great hero of said race will go a long way to get you noticed.

[Mr Mystery]

Isn't there instances where the chaos gods mess with each others plans? When your happy to tun on each other just to gain some special "gift" you won't be cohesive. I understand the complaints about the accept challenge rules, but if your a being whos trying to gain favor with a god, killing that big stompy thing or the great hero of said race will go a long way to get you noticed.

Then you have Deamon Princes, in particular Belakor. In essence, he's a male generative member to everyone, working to his own shadowy agenda......

[Kol_Saresk]

I assume anyone chiming in here has read ADBs Night Lords books? If not, do it now, finiest 40K writing ever in my humble opinion.

That really gave the sense of exactly how screwed the traitors were, 10th Company is down to 60 odd guys at the start of the book after 1000 years (to them, they say 200 in the first book but thats retconned in the second to about 1000) of war, they have one working Thunderhawk, a few rhinos, they're stripping down everything they can to keep the essentials working, they are having to scavange weapons and armour from their own fallen or those of other Space Marines and hope they can get it all working well enough to fight with.

Most other legions are thought to be in a similar or worse situation, the level of in-fighting between factions and legions or even companies pays a heavier toll than continuing the long war, more traitors seem to die at the ends of other traitors than anything else in the books.

The Black Legion are in a better position because Abaddon, through coersion and trickery and force of will is holding them together as well as he can, but even then, its a struggle for them to maintain supplies and man power.

They don't have rhino variants because they need rhinos to get to battle, you have to use all your spares to keep the rhinos moving, the other stuff is similarly explained, except Drop Pods, no idea why they don't have those, they really should, I guess thats more a "no model, not in the codex" thing than anything.

You should also remember that A D-B has specifically said, the Night Lords series only shows the state of the Warband of the Broken Aquila. Because in Blood Reaver, guess what we see? Drop Pods. We see the Night Lords drop down into them, and then we see the Red Corsairs use them and drop ships to put down artillery and troops to lay siege to the fortress-monastery from the outside and then teleport in Terminators to help the Night Lords attack from the inside.


Chaos Space Marines may only have one type of dreadnaught, but they have three daemon engines in the codex, access to Contemptors from FW and the gorgeous Decimator as well!

Which is reliant on the almighty "Yes I will play against Forgeworld." Which most tournaments don't allow, there is definitely more than a little talk of LSGs not allowing as well as many many many many many vocal(keyword) players who are against Forgeworld because they believe it is "pay to win".


Yes, but not as Legions, a few hundred Space Marines can build an empire, especially on the fringes of the Imperium, they have access to forges of the rogue elements of the mechanicum, but who knows what services they'd have to trade for them, they're just not the Legions that once were, they split and join each other at a moments notice, a large army might stay with their Daemon Primarch in the Eye, but many will have gone off to do their own thing, the important thing about the Traitors is that the bond of brotherhood is gone, they are now loyal only to themselves, not to a goal or the Emperor, the Warmaster or even their Primarch, why would they be when they can go out on their own and earn the favour of the Gods for themselves and become as powerful as a Primarch in their own right?

I'm sorry that the fluff and the game rules don't conform to what you want them to, but its your game, you can remake whatever you like in your own image.
Where did daboarder say they did it as Legions? and it is weird how you just proved his point that it does happen. Quite a bit. Were trying to agree with him? I ask because the last comment sounds like disagreement, contrary to the paragraph. 'Tis confusing.



So that raises another issue about codex design. I don't feel like First Armageddon or the Dominion of Fire are business as usual for Chaos marines. They were orchestrated by a primarch, and in the latter case, they were specifically motivated by the fact that the legion existed in name only.

At the same time, they do happen, just like Black Crusades, and the fact that they happen suggests that a logistical capacity capable of supporting a significant interstellar campaign is something that can be cobbled together from time to time, at least for short periods ("short" in 40K terms, meaning on the order of decades or a century or two).

Are these once-a-millennium events the sorts of things a codex should cover? Or should the look-and-feel of a codex be more influenced by normal operations?

That is and isn't true. See, Chaos gets the Black Crusades with a capital "B". These are the ones led by Abaddon. Then there the "b"lack Crusades, which are a massive gathering of Chaotic forces, usually assembled to just cause havoc and destruction until it burns itself out. For example, the Cholercaust Crusade we see in the Legion of the Damned battle novel would be a lower case Black Crusade. The one mentioned in Dark Vengeance by the cultists was a lower case Black Crusade. The Thirteenth? Capital B on steroids. Dominion of Fire? Little b.

Honestly, I feel the codex should cover the "normal" operations of a codex. But what is "normal" when a warband can consist of anywhere from five to five thousand at any point in time? So with that in mind, my personal opinion is the "Warband Traits" should very simply be split up between the four gods(after all, what is the real difference between a World Eater Berzerker and a Goremonger Berzerker[found in the aforemention LotD battle novel; mentioned as Renegades, not Traitors]?) and then "Fast Attack(since this is what GW sees as Terror Tactics and we have at least two Renegade Chapters that focus on Terror Tactics), Siege, Infiltrate and maybe a daemon-summoning list that synergizes with the Daemons? Not too sure on the last one since CSM and Daemon allies are a somewhat powerful combo. Especially if reversed.

The thing about Chaos is that it is, for lack of better term, chaotic. In the Red Corsairs and Black Legion, you find massive empires controlled by singular iron wills. Any asked to bend the knee better do so and better keep it bent. In the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors, there is a pretend council of lords and religious leaders that hold truly little power except that which others let them wield. Otherwise the events of Storm of Iron(a Warsmith working for Abaddon), Dead Sky, Black Sun(Iron Warriors fighting over gene-seed that was not shared) and Dark Creed(entire Word Bearer Hosts playing proxy to the power struggle between Erebus and Kor Phaeron) would not have happened. As for the rest, "shattered" seems like an understatement. True, like with any blade you could take the shards and try to put them back to together, but it will always be weaker than it was before unless you completely melt the blade and build it anew. Which is not going to happen anytime soon. And then of course, you get everyone else. The Blood Gorgons who just roam the galaxy, marauding whenever it pleases them and happily content with just that. The Crimson Slaughter, an entire warband focused upon the singular goal of curing their curse. The Dragon Warriors, obsessed with destroying the Salamanders. The Violators? One warband was content living on a daemonworld serving a priestess of Slaanesh while we know at least one other was seen serving Abaddon at Crythe and some were also seen in the Thirteenth Black Crusade.

So like I said, random. The idea of catering to just the Legions when there is so much and not to mention the amount of overlap, while I wouldn't say it is stupid, just not a very broad view of the background. Not necessarily a bad thing. It means you know what you want.

The reality is that whenever we look at it, Chaos Space Marines are a mirror to the Loyalists. Loyalists fight each other as much as Chaos fights itself. Both groups fight xenos and both groups fight each other. The background is there to justify a lot of things from stalker tanks to kai guns to axes that devour souls to knives that are made from poison to daemon-armor. It's there. Just not in the rules. And that is what the problem the Chaos community has.

[Nabterayl]

I understand the complaints about the accept challenge rules, but if your a being whos trying to gain favor with a god, killing that big stompy thing or the great hero of said race will go a long way to get you noticed.
I think that's part of the intended flavor, but another part of it is the fact that while many marines seem to have a more or less permanent legion identity, they don't seem to have very strong allegiances to units smaller than that. The impression I get is that individual marines band together into squads and warbands or companies because they want to, which is a fancy way of saying they think it will help them get what they want - safety, necessities, luxuries. Since CSM pretty much have to acquire all of those things through force (or by having a big enough reputation as a badass that they don't have to use force very often), it stands to reason they're only going to follow somebody who has demonstrated an exceptional amount of strength. If my squad leader gets called out and he runs away, I'm going to find myself a new squad.

I think it's a small step from there to mandatory challenges, given that we're dealing with space marines. We tend to look at a space marine character (of any flavor) and pretty instantly calculate his odds of winning. You have a power axe and the guy who challenged you has a power sword? Don't accept that! Your odds of winning that fight are approximately 3,720 to 1! But space marines don't see themselves that way. As far as they're concerned, they're the most dangerous characters around, and being a Chaos space marine - finally making your way in the world lording it over the ignorant and the unenhanced like the superhuman you are - isn't exactly a prescription for increased humility. So I can easily see Chaos marines deserting a squad leader who doesn't preemptively challenge enemy characters too - what are you, chicken?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The Challenge issue is a weird one. Currently, Chaos Marines are shown as self-preserving, very willing to retreat (i.e. low LD, no ATSKNF-like rule). This is a huge contrast to "I will now duel this Eldar Avatar with my pocket-knife".

Mandatory challenges fit with "too crazy to feel fear" Chaos Marines, but are a poor fit for as they are now.

Personally, as a Chaos player, I really like the idea of mostly low-Ld Chaos Marines! It's not that they're cowards; they're just disloyal. No way in hell they'll throw their life away for Lord Bob's evil scheme to capture all the jelly beans, if they feel like they're very likely to die, they'll run for it. But by that same token, it feels odd that an Aspiring Champion is going to always fight a crazy powerful foe, rather than throw a goon at it.

[Kol_Saresk]

The Challenge issue is a weird one. Currently, Chaos Marines are shown as self-preserving, very willing to retreat (i.e. low LD, no ATSKNF-like rule). This is a huge contrast to "I will now duel this Eldar Avatar with my pocket-knife".

Mandatory challenges fit with "too crazy to feel fear" Chaos Marines, but are a poor fit for as they are now.

Personally, as a Chaos player, I really like the idea of mostly low-Ld Chaos Marines! It's not that they're cowards; they're just disloyal. No way in hell they'll throw their life away for Lord Bob's evil scheme to capture all the jelly beans, if they feel like they're very likely to die, they'll run for it. But by that same token, it feels odd that an Aspiring Champion is going to always fight a crazy powerful foe, rather than throw a goon at it.

It is and isn't. True, there is the preservation of life. But the more zealous will seek that life out to prove themselves. So honestly, making it optional fits right in rather than making it mandatory. And following that note, it would then make it fluffy that if the champion were to win, he would receive a Gift as a boon. But, you can only get the boon if you accept and win. ;)

As for leadership, true, but again. There is the "We've seen things man!" This are Marines who have literally lived in Hell(or personal preference for describing a realm of torment and despair). Look at the Abyssal Crusade. Thirty entire Chapters went in. Everyone that went in was broken mentally. Most went on to become Renegades while some did return and exact vengeance upon the very man who had ordered them into that hell.

Seeing something like that and surviving in it, well it might make someone who, like water, seeks the path of least resistance but I wouldn't say that it makes them have lower morale than a Loyalist.

[daboarder]

The cahllenge mechanic would be fine in my opinion. iF we had access to tools to make it worth while. If our champs had access to a half descent invul and ws then it would be fine but at the moment almost any other army in the game has champions who are likely to beat us in combat. The best we really hope for is a draw. Which still means we're dead

[Charon]

The cahllenge mechanic would be fine in my opinion. iF we had access to tools to make it worth while. If our champs had access to a half descent invul and ws then it would be fine but at the moment almost any other army in the game has champions who are likely to beat us in combat. The best we really hope for is a draw. Which still means we're dead

Also the reward system needs an overhaul... cause even IF you win the challenge you are likely ending up with useless stuff (all hail my triple hatred daemon prince... why are there so many sources you get hatred from?) or in a worse case your Khornate Lord on Juggernaut gets the ultimate reward of ascending to a fully fledged daemon prince and... ends up in a way worse spot he was before (you actually lose points and combat power).

[DrBored]

The Challenge issue is a weird one. Currently, Chaos Marines are shown as self-preserving, very willing to retreat (i.e. low LD, no ATSKNF-like rule). This is a huge contrast to "I will now duel this Eldar Avatar with my pocket-knife".

Mandatory challenges fit with "too crazy to feel fear" Chaos Marines, but are a poor fit for as they are now.

Personally, as a Chaos player, I really like the idea of mostly low-Ld Chaos Marines! It's not that they're cowards; they're just disloyal. No way in hell they'll throw their life away for Lord Bob's evil scheme to capture all the jelly beans, if they feel like they're very likely to die, they'll run for it. But by that same token, it feels odd that an Aspiring Champion is going to always fight a crazy powerful foe, rather than throw a goon at it.

The other points I agree with, but the only justification I can actually see for the Must Challenge rule is this...

If a Space Marine sarge calls out your Chaos guy, he is going to have to accept that challenge, lest he fall off the top of the totem pole to be trampled on by his own kind. So, screwed if he does, screwed if he doesn't.

Now, why that same guy is going to have to face an Avatar, I have no idea, that makes no sense whatsoever, but I can see what Phil Kelly was going for at least.

[daboarder]

Also the reward system needs an overhaul... cause even IF you win the challenge you are likely ending up with useless stuff (all hail my triple hatred daemon prince... why are there so many sources you get hatred from?) or in a worse case your Khornate Lord on Juggernaut gets the ultimate reward of ascending to a fully fledged daemon prince and... ends up in a way worse spot he was before (you actually lose points and combat power).

Yeah I'm of the opinion that the boons should be simplified to D6 stat bonuses, such as +1T, +1S, regain W/+1W,+1I, +1A,+1BS and WS Through some of the other stuff into gear (for example combo mind eater and the adimantium will into a relic etc

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I could even lean towards a d3 table. 1: +1WS/BS, 2: +1A/I, 3: +1S/T. Leave all the big mutations for player chosen upgrades, the in-battle Chaos Rewards might be better off as "I FEEL THE WARP OVERTAKING ME, IT IS A GOOD PAIN" type dealies.

[Charon]

Worst thing is you lose your toys, your mark changes and you lose all the boons you collected previously.

[Lexington]

The Challenge issue is a weird one.
Challenges themselves are a really awful mechanic that don't work at all as intended. Making them such a cornerstone of the Chaos Marine Codex's ruleset was a huge mistake.

[daboarder]

There's so many sources out there, I think it's a matter of personal player preference. It's clear that whilst Chaos do perform as raiders a fair amount of the time, with the right direction, they're capable of fighting much as the Legions of old once did. But kind of hard to make sweeping statements about how any given player's force fights most of the time.

Which to me is the great joy of the background. So much is left unsaid, or when it is said, is gloriously subjective or otherwise ambiguous. It gives us hobbyists a lot of leeway.

Me, I don't see Chaos as being a permanently cohesive threat. In my mind, they're as likely to be self defeating as defeated, as the various Warbands go for the glory (just started re-reading Storm of Iron, which helps!). For further context, this is also my favourite aspect of Skavendom in Warhammer. If they'd just stop their internal feuding, plotting and misanthropy and just get on with it, they'd long since have conquered all the Dwarf-things, Man-things and Elf-things :)

See now THAT I can largely agree with.

[Mr Mystery]

I am the resurrection, and I am the light.

No, not really. It's a good song though! (Stone Roses, check them out on Youtube).

I am however, a background nutter who is seriously enjoying the Crimson Slaughter Codex!

Currently up to the 13th Black Crusade bit, and I have to say, it is changing my perception of just how organised renegades can be. How about you guys?

[Lord-Boofhead]

If self preservance plays any role in the "free" CSM mindset why do they all have a deathwhish and issuing/accepting challenges from Wraithlords and Hive Tyrants?

Thats where glory and a chance to impress the Chaos Gods overrides self preservation.

Where is the point in becoming a dreaded daemon prince if this creepy thing is actually far weaker than the Chaos Lord was before?

Immortality not good enough for ya?

- - - Updated - - -


Chaos:

Can't manage: Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, LR Crusader


All post Heresy tech. None of the Dark Mechanicum know how to work it.

- - - Updated - - -


Challenges themselves are a really awful mechanic that don't work at all as intended. Making them such a cornerstone of the Chaos Marine Codex's ruleset was a huge mistake.

Nonsense they work well in wfb and they work well enough in 40K if you give them a chance.

[Charon]

Tjhe ones in the SPACE MARINE Codex are. They were built specifically to REPLACE the Kharbadys (sp?) Assault Pod.

I suggest you read the fluff your self or don't have time between hypocritical smugness?

So when Horus gave the Dreadclaw to the Worldeaters to replace their ordinary drop pods this was post heresy?

[Lord Asterion]

So when Horus gave the Dreadclaw to the Worldeaters to replace their ordinary drop pods this was post heresy?

Can you cite a source for this please? Isn't the Dreadclaw an Assault Boat rather than just a drop pod? Its just lack of resources forcing them to use them as drop pods because recovering the drop pods isn't really feasible for warbands

[Charon]

IA6 + Betrayer.
Dreadclaw can act as both. Point is that the dreadclaw was considered an upgrade to the ordinary drop pod, which means that drop pode existed during the heresy (and probably a long time before) and where not a "new development post heresy" as Lord Boofhead wants to make us believe.